The problem isn't that they burned it, its that they STOLE it!

[renie408]

There are people here who seem to want to just gloss right over the origin of the flag that got burned this past weekend in Oakland; it was stolen during an act of trespass and vandalism. I don't think anybody on this forum in this day and age really has THAT much of a problem with the fact that people have the right to burn the flag as a form of self expression. They might not think it was an exactly BRILLIANT thing to do in this instance, but they get that you have the right to burn a flag...AS LONG AS IT IS YOURS. You don't have the right to go and steal your neighbor's flag and burn it. Or break into an unused house in your neighborhood to hang out there. Or to head over to somebody's house that you don't like and tear their stuff up. See, those things you DON'T have a Constitutionally protected right to do.

And if you support the OWS actions of this past weekend, would you also support the Tea Party if they did something similar? If the Tea Party comes to Charlotte this summer and takes over an abandoned building downtown, then breaks into DNC headquarters and steals some Obama memorabilia, knocks things over and breaks them up in the process, then burns said memorabilia...are we all OK with that because they are just passionately trying to get their message across? Cause they believe in what they believe in just as thoroughly as we believe in what we believe in.

[rhett o rick]

1. Stealing a flag and burning it is not on the same level as the atrosities

committed by the oligarchs' police. Try to maintain perspective. Also, those that stole the flag are most likely a fringe group not supported by the majority of OWS.

Why would a Democrat side with Fauxed-Up News to disparage OWS? What could be the objective?

[TheWraith]

2. Because OWS was wrong.

It's not cool to ignoring it when someone does things which are utterly unacceptable, just because you want to justify it.

And your "But the police are evil fascists!" line is getting VERY old.

[unionworks]

8. I'm willing to bet

That the federal Judge in charge of the ongoing investigation of abuses by OPD is going to think the continued use of excessive force and abuse of detained protesters is getting old as well, when he puts OPD under federal control.

[rhett o rick]

13. Your line about OWS is wrong is equally getting old. You seem ok when

the oligarchs' police do thing "utterly unacceptable" like jabbing people in the spleen or liver, or spraying pepper spray in their face, or letting them sit with their hands cuffed, cutting off circulation, until they shit themselves on a bus or in a cell. You seem to accept that its ok for the police to shoot someone point blank in the head with a gas canister and then shoot at those trying to help him.

I understand that Fauxed-Up News vilifies OWS but why Democrats?

[2pooped2pop]

34. Occupy is dead

lol. Let the damned flag go Wraith. It's a fucking piece of material. It's not the worse thing in the world.

Frodo is almost at your backdoor. You better turn your watchful eye to something really important like Middle Earth.

It's so wrong, but but they burned a flag. ANd they stole it. waaaaahhhhh!

[slay]

55. And yet you seem to ignore everything wrong that Obama does just fine

you know - like signing a bill allowing for the indefinite detention of Americans without the right to a trial or a lawyer. You seem to overlook that pretty easily. or his signing the extension of the tax cuts for the top 1%. No problem there right?

*on edit - i guess maybe these things look petty and inconsequential to you compared with 1 stolen flag right?

[renie408]

7. Because I am an agent provocateur...duh.

I mean, anybody that disagrees with you CAN'T be a REAL Democrat, right?

[rhett o rick]

10. It has nothing to do with me. Explain if you will, how a Democrat can disparage OWS?

I understand that one may not agree, but those getting brutalized for the good of the People dont deserve vilification. I understand it from the right, but not from Democrats.

[renie408]

21. I am not disparaging OWS. I am disparaging the acts of a few people involved in the OWS movement.

There is a difference. OWS isn't a single entity. It is a lot of people all over the place doing different things. Are you saying that ANYTHING ANYONE involved in the OWS movement does is OK? Does that really make sense?

[rhett o rick]

22. It doesnt sound like you understood my post. I did not condone the behavior. I stated

that keeping in perspective the flag burning was nothing compared to shooting someone in the head with a gas canister. I ask for perspective. But some here look for any reason to disparage OWS. I question their motives.

[renie408]

27. Ok, there we can agree.

I didn't understand the tone of your post. Yes, I think the police response is over the top in some cities and Oakland has been a repeat offender in that regard. I guess that is what bugs me about this. As long as OWS protesters kept things civil and legal, the police looked SO bad in their response. That also makes me wonder if possibly the police WERE involved in what happened. But that just feels so convoluted and conspiracy theorish. Mainly I feel like it doesn't do anybody any good to say that any kind of stealing or vandalism is OK just because it is stealing and vandalism for the cause you believe in (not YOU 'you').

[rhett o rick]

31. What I am trying to preach is to maintain perspective. The Corp-Media

takes the slightest infraction by anyone remotely associated with OWS and tries to paint a picture of violent protestors. Yes some protestors destroyed some construction equipment, but they were on their own and their actions were not sanctioned by the main OWS movement. The fact is that some police have been caught infiltrating and trying to start violence. The oligarchical overlords want us to be violent so they can justify their brutality. Those that stole and burned the flag were not acting as representatives of OWS. There are violent groups that try to coopt OWS, like the Black Bloc. Please read "Occupy: Scenes from Occupied America".

[renie408]

32. You know what is REALLY funny?

We are on the same page completely for most of that. I am frustrated because the MSM DOES try to make the OWS protesters out to be something they aren't and here goes some jerks in Oakland feeding that perception. The thing is, whether they were the police or not, the right response is to say that they were an isolated few. Not to say that what they did was OK for spurious reasons like 'hey, dude, they owned that flag cause they pay taxes' or 'well, what they did was way better than what the police do, so it's ok'.

The son of one of my oldest friends is involved with Occupy Charlotte, BTW, and I tried to encourage my son to go up to Charlotte to join him. He didn't want to miss school, though. I really DO support the Occupy movement...promise!!

[Life Long Dem]

45. I agree.

Once they agree to a wrong (trespassing was wrong) and move on, they can move onto dealing with the infiltration. Oakland has always been a location where there has been some suspicion of an infiltration due to violence. OWS in NYC and OWS was always peaceful until Oakland.

[2pooped2pop]

35. I condone it!

Fuck the whiners. Ok normally I wouldn't really condone it, but the people making such an issue of it are really really over the top. WIth all the shit going on in this world, the flag stealing and burning is not on my top list of concerns.

Occupy is the only thing I see working to save this country. I have questioned a tactic here or there but have always been shown that it is ok, they got this. So I will give them great leeway in these minor things. I think it was provacatuers but if it was an occupier, then so be it. I don't care. My support is strong.

Wall Street and the govt has been wiping their ass with that flag for quite some time. If you want to get upset, work on that.

[renie408]

38. Thank you. It is responses like these that can only make my point for me.

[HopeHoops]

3. That's what I've been saying - protestors or infiltrators is one issue. Theft and destruction,...

...that's another. Whoever stole it and burned it should face charges. Curiously, the cop (or maybe two) didn't even try to arrest the masked people. I think it was staged. Even if I'm wrong, whoever did it should be charged for theft and destruction of property - but that's the only thing illegal that occurred.

[unionworks]

4. the problem is

...not one person has been arrested for burning it or vandalizing,even though they HAD THE TIME TO STAND THERE AND POSE FOR PICTURES WHILE DOING THIS IN A BUILDING FULL OF COPS. (Moments later a photo was taken of a cop stamping out the flag). And there never will be any arrests for it. Because the City has to protect their interest in the organized crime syndicate known as the OPD.

[2pooped2pop]

36. OMG

again I must applaud your answer.

[Luminous Animal]

51. Yep. The cops at City Hall stood by and did NOTHING. Meanwhile their fellow officers...

were busy brutalizing and kettling and arresting PEACEFUL protesters.

Meanwhile, people inside the YMCA witnessed some of those PEACEFUL protesters being pushed up against the building wall by the cops and violently jabbed with clubs. The people inside the YMCA opened up the doors to provide sanctuary to the protesters.

[morningfog]

5. Is that the problem? Was anything else stolen?

Is that really an issue?

That it was stolen and was government property makes it an even more significant act of speech.

[MattBaggins]

6. They didn't "steal" anything

[unionworks]

9. A 100 year old scale model

...of the city hall inside a glass casegot tippedover on its side.Kind of symbolic of what has happened with Quan as Mayor, I'd say!

[Luminous Animal]

52. +1!

[HangOnKids]

11. But Big Corporations Busting Into American Lives And STEALING EVERYTHING Is Ok?

Bye now.

[renie408]

17. So anything they do is OK because there are corporations that do WORSE?

[justiceischeap]

12. Just curious: How do you steal something your tax dollars pay for?

Just saying...

[renie408]

15. If theirs were the ONLY tax dollars spent, you might have a point.

I am sorry, that line of 'logic' just doesn't work. If you purchased something collectively with your neighbors, but then decided to destroy it without their consent, you would face legal issues.

[justiceischeap]

19. Sure that line of 'logic' works, you just don't accept it

But that's okay, this is America and you don't have to accept it. I find it fascinating, as others have pointed out, that they were surrounded by cops, yet not one police officer stepped up to stop the 'theft' or the 'vandalism' of the alleged stolen property. Nor, as far as we are aware, were any of those burning the flag arrested. My line of 'logic' on that subject works too.

[renie408]

23. No, actually I don't know enough about that to speculate or say that you are wrong in

your suspicions. It wouldn't surprise me if somebody did do this to discredit OWS. I think it is a long shot, but not out of the realm of possibility.

But your first comment about the flag being theirs because it was bought with tax dollars doesn't pass any kind of smell test. National Parks belong to everyone because they are supported with tax dollars...if someone wants to tear up or trash a national monument, should they have the right to just because they pay taxes?

[morningfog]

24. They only burned 99% of it.

[SammyWinstonJack]

18. Finally someone says what I've been thinking! Thank You!

Wonder if you will get an honest answer to that?

[jberryhill]

28. Cool, I can take police cars now!

[renie408]

30. Oh, man...maybe I can get behind that 'logic'. Can you imagine how much faster

your commute would be if you could do it in a police car??

[2pooped2pop]

41. go for it

since you are not a provacatuer, you will be caught and go to prison. It's your choice though.

[pintobean]

56. And their guns!

[jberryhill]

60. Actually, I was hoping a German Shepherd

Would be in the back seat. I like dogs.

[onenote]

49. So if a bunch of tea partiers break into an army base and take a tank

do you think that they haven't stolen something?

If I grab someone elses food stamps, have I not stolen something.

Just saying...

[Starry Messenger]

14. Obama memorabilia equals American flag?

Oh. My.

[renie408]

16. Yes. Obviously they are exactly equivalent and that was the precise point I was trying to make.

Really?

[Starry Messenger]

20. The DNC is not supported by public funding.

City Hall in Oakland is. Obama memorabilia is not the American flag, and your analogy is not equivalent.

[renie408]

25. So, the KKK can destroy stuff in the MLK memorial because they are taxpayers and it was

paid for with taxpayer money? And I bet they really, really don't like Martin Luther King and feel really passionately about that.

[Starry Messenger]

33. Female prisoners in Saturday's arrests were made to pee in front of male OPD

In pregnancy tests. Let me know when you are outraged over something like that, which actually happened. Not your bs "examples" which haven't. Let me know when you've started an OP for the woman the Oakland PD put in the hospital from beating her until her kidneys made her pee blood.

[renie408]

37. In the list of logical argument fallacies, this would be

deflection.

Yes, I do find that outrageous. I think it is wrong for the police to beat anybody. Making women prisoners urinate in front of male guards sounds like a lawsuit to me. But just because the police are wrong doesn't mean that everything done in the name of OWS is right.

[Starry Messenger]

39. Your priorities are now out here for everyone to see.

FLAG greater than human dignity.

[renie408]

43. And so are your evasive and inflammatory debate tactics.

Where, exactly, did I say that the FLAG was more important to me than human dignity? Just because I can hold two ideas simultaneously does not mean that either are negated.

And just because you can't doesn't mean that you have any moral high ground.

[Starry Messenger]

44. lolololol

You started this POS thread about some minor issue having to do with Occupy Oakland. Well, renie I lived in Oakland for 15 years and the opinions of outsiders about how "awful" everyone is there haven't solved poverty, exploitation, racism or police brutality. Did you start any OPs when Oscar Grant got murdered by Bart PD? Maybe you would have told us all that this issue wasn't about him getting shot, it was about being "disorderly on the train".

Your posts are out here for all to see. You starting a thread about some minor misdeed when the actions that led up to it are so much more egregious are on you.

[Luminous Animal]

50. The police are an organized gang with orders to brutalize, humiliate, violently attack, and arrest..

those exercising their 1st Amendment rights. Thousands marched on Saturday... a couple of dozen acted like idiots... 400 PEACEFUL protesters were arrested. Your outrage is misdirected and misdirecting.

[Kalidurga]

26. The only problem I have with it is that...

in some people's eyes it looks bad. It looks like OWS is a lawless group and isn't as anti-violence as they say they are. But, in the scheme of things it's not that big a deal. No one was hurt or killed, lost their livelihood, or got evicted from their home due to this activity. Can't say that goes so much for the activities of the 1% that if not outright illegal, do walk up to that line and get real cozy with it.

[renie408]

29. I can agree with this also.

[sibelian]

40. No, the problem is that this ridiculous non-issue is dominating the discussion

instead of the real political targets of OWS.

[Luminous Animal]

48. And the near unanimous disregard for the 100s of PEACEFUL protesters who were arrested.

[Joe Shlabotnik]

42. Just prior to this stupid flag incident

400+ peaceful citizens had their safety threatened by teargas, rubber bullets, and concussion grenades, and their then freedom stolen by the OPD. This flame baiting faux outrage about a flag, is getting tiresome.

[Luminous Animal]

47. There were far more that 400. 400 is the number of PEACEFUL protesters who were kettled & arrested.

It is a damn shame that DU is all lit up over the actions of a few assholes but generally mute over those who were kettled.

[slay]

54. +1

i know - gives me very little hope for the future i'm afraid.

[Luminous Animal]

46. Fuck it if I am going to smear thousands with the actions of a few. Yes. It was wrong.

And yes, I do support OWS. I do not support stealing the flag, but of all the things going on in this world (murder of innocents by drones, anyone), this is way way down on my list.

I do support OWS taking over unused property. I do support OWS walking into City Hall, which belongs to the people and which is what they did. City Hall is not private property.

[slay]

53. The way things are going - stealing a flag compared to fighting against a dismal future

stealing the flag - while wrong - misses the point entirely. oh no a flag was stolen it's the end of the world!!1!

#OWS is fighting for the future - and NO political party will help them or wants anything to do with them.

if a flag gets stolen or a model broken - boo fucking hoo. this is about the future people - and will there be one other than fascist corporate rule. wake up - cause things are going to get a lot worse before they get better. stealing a flag vs massive income inequality which nobody in power will help us with. Hrmmm which am I mad about...

[donheld]

57. can you prove that it was stolen?

[sudopod]

58. Expensive flag. Guys wearing army boots. No long hair. 90s clothes. No one arrested.

Totally legit

[EFerrari]

61. But somebody told me that somebody said, they knew him.

lol

[EFerrari]

59. This thread deserves to be trashed for comparing Occupy Wall Street to the Tea Klan.nt