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Sun Mar 3, 2013, 11:46 AM

Ken Braun: Banning guns will work as well as the war on drugs

http://www.mlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2013/02/ken_braun_banning_guns_will_wo.html
The President says his assault weapons ban will bring safer streets. But how will criminalizing firearm ownership reduce gun violence any more effectively than the War on Drugs has cleansed the streets of drug trade violence?

With 300+ million private firearms in America - clearly a huge demand for the product - no sane person thinks a new law will cause a single bad guy to voluntarily give one up. Only the well-behaved will be disarmed.


I find his take on legalizing drugs the interesting part of this editorial and refreshing for him being a Republican

Instead, if you believe drug addiction will remain an isolated problem for tragic people, regardless of legal status, then there's no convincing reason to keep spending what a Harvard economist says will be just short of $1 trillion dollars more on the same failed policy over the next decade.

That's the damage to law-abiding taxpayers in law enforcement costs, prisons, and foregone tax revenue. And the result is the enrichment of wealthy gangsters who pay no taxes. We have taken a very destructive personal habit done by unfortunate people - drug addicts - and exploded it into an organized crime wave requiring a huge expansion of big government.

61 replies, 6963 views

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Arrow 61 replies Author Time Post
Reply Ken Braun: Banning guns will work as well as the war on drugs (Original post)
Bay Boy Mar 2013 OP
nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #1
Logical Mar 2013 #5
sadbear Mar 2013 #2
Eleanors38 Mar 2013 #4
bluedigger Mar 2013 #3
The Straight Story Mar 2013 #7
Squinch Mar 2013 #6
ProgressiveProfessor Mar 2013 #11
Squinch Mar 2013 #12
ProgressiveProfessor Mar 2013 #13
apocalypsehow Mar 2013 #24
Bake Mar 2013 #18
Squinch Mar 2013 #19
BainsBane Mar 2013 #22
Bake Mar 2013 #52
BainsBane Mar 2013 #53
Bake Mar 2013 #54
BainsBane Mar 2013 #55
Bay Boy Mar 2013 #23
Squinch Mar 2013 #36
Bay Boy Mar 2013 #37
Kurska Mar 2013 #44
Zoeisright Mar 2013 #38
Bay Boy Mar 2013 #50
99Forever Mar 2013 #8
pipi_k Mar 2013 #15
99Forever Mar 2013 #16
Eleanors38 Mar 2013 #9
derby378 Mar 2013 #10
Eleanors38 Mar 2013 #14
Spider Jerusalem Mar 2013 #17
Recursion Mar 2013 #20
Spider Jerusalem Mar 2013 #21
apocalypsehow Mar 2013 #25
Kolesar Mar 2013 #28
jeff47 Mar 2013 #26
upaloopa Mar 2013 #27
ellisonz Mar 2013 #29
Zen Democrat Mar 2013 #30
Politicalboi Mar 2013 #31
spin Mar 2013 #58
Comrade_McKenzie Mar 2013 #32
Bay Boy Mar 2013 #33
ellisonz Mar 2013 #42
BainsBane Mar 2013 #59
TeamPooka Mar 2013 #34
guardian Mar 2013 #35
jmg257 Mar 2013 #39
guardian Mar 2013 #41
jmg257 Mar 2013 #45
dairydog91 Mar 2013 #46
jmg257 Mar 2013 #48
dairydog91 Mar 2013 #49
BainsBane Mar 2013 #60
Pryderi Mar 2013 #40
Kurska Mar 2013 #43
Crepuscular Mar 2013 #47
Bay Boy Mar 2013 #57
madville Mar 2013 #51
spanone Mar 2013 #56
Marr Mar 2013 #61

Response to Bay Boy (Original post)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 11:48 AM

1. Cause that is exactly what they are doing

 

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #1)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 12:03 PM

5. Many here would LOVE to ban them. You seem to have forgot the hysteria around here. n-t

 

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Response to Bay Boy (Original post)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 11:49 AM

2. It's harder to smuggle an assault rifle in your rectum.

And they don't make condoms that big anyway.

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Response to sadbear (Reply #2)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 12:02 PM

4. Parts is parts.

 

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Response to Bay Boy (Original post)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 11:56 AM

3. The only part of that analogy that holds up is addiction.

We have a large gun dependent population that is in need of intervention.

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Response to bluedigger (Reply #3)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 12:05 PM

7. Only ones I see addicted to guns and killing are people in govt

Maybe we should all be armed and them.

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Response to Bay Boy (Original post)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 12:04 PM

6. This would be interesting if anyone wanted to ban guns.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #6)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 12:28 PM

11. Some clearly do, even here...

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #11)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 12:31 PM

12. Yes. Of course. Everyone is being mean to you.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #12)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 12:34 PM

13. You refuse to face the facts that some are advocating total civilian disarmament

Last edited Sun Mar 3, 2013, 06:19 PM - Edit history (1)

As for your bullying...it is ineffectual to the point of being humorous.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #13)

Mon Mar 4, 2013, 03:40 PM

24. Ah, I see: refuting the "professors"* pro-NRA nonsense is now "bullying."

Absurd.



*( )

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Response to Squinch (Reply #6)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 02:43 PM

18. You're either (a) new around here, (b) naive, or (c) dishonest.

Because many people here clearly DO want to ban guns, all of 'em.

So I'm going with (c).

Bake

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Response to Bake (Reply #18)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 02:45 PM

19. Have fun with that.

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Response to Bake (Reply #18)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 08:45 PM

22. Oh, you're a gunner too

Just a treasure trove of reactionary positions here. Knock me over with a feather.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #22)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:13 PM

52. I own a couple of guns.

But I'm not opposed to gun control (short of banning everything).

Does that make me a gunner, or just a Delicate Flower?



Bake

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Response to Bake (Reply #52)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:38 PM

53. This makes you a gunner

Last edited Tue Mar 5, 2013, 07:10 PM - Edit history (1)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2454145

Helps me understand how you popped up out of nowhere to tell me to shut up. I'm guessing we may have tangled on guns before.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #53)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:47 PM

54. The post you linked to doesn't make me a gunner

It makes me realistic. I've been in enough gun discussions in GD to know that there are a number of DUers who do in fact advocate banning all guns.

And nowhere in that post did I tell you to shut up. If you're looking for a fight, please look elsewhere. I'm not in the mood.

Bake

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Response to Bake (Reply #54)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 06:46 PM

55. You did, but I'm happy to leave it in the past

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Response to Squinch (Reply #6)

Mon Mar 4, 2013, 03:38 PM

23. This person does...

graham4anything
6. Working for a Gun-Free America. One day at a time. Longterm, the NRA is dead

One candidate at a time all across America
One judge at a time all across America
One tweak of the law one day at a time

The long term battle will be won.

Just like it took millions of people dying from cigarettes to change the attitudes of America

it shall happen.

Not a day too soon.
Not a death too soon.

One day at a time
Guns and bullets are an addiction

and they need to be treated for the obsessive complusion they are
one day at a time.

one gun-free street at a time.

one day at a time.

The biggest gang in America is the NRA. And their days of thuggery are coming to an end.
ONE DAY AT A TIME.

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Response to Bay Boy (Reply #23)

Mon Mar 4, 2013, 07:06 PM

36. So by all means, say that everyone does, or that those who do are shaping policy in any way.

That martyrdom thing is really working for you guys. Makes you look very reasonable.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #36)

Mon Mar 4, 2013, 09:33 PM

37. You said:

"This would be interesting if anyone wanted to ban guns"
I showed you just one of the many people here who want to ban 'all' guns and now you claim that I said "everyone does"?
Then you try to say you meant only those who are shaping policy.
And to top it off you call me a martyr. WTH?

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Response to Bay Boy (Reply #37)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 02:56 AM

44. How insidious, quoting their exact words back to them.

Don't worry someone will be along shortly to explain to you how you are still wrong, despite being demonstrably correct.

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Response to Bay Boy (Reply #23)

Mon Mar 4, 2013, 10:24 PM

38. Oh noes, call the waaahahhhhmmmmmmullannnccceee!!!

Fucking gun humpers and their Precious fixation. Oh my god, just IMAGINE if guns were banned! The horror!!!

Japan: 0.07 gun deaths per 100,000
UK: 0.25 gun deaths per 100,000 citizens
Netherlands: 0.46 gun deaths per 100,000
Italy: 1.28 gun deaths per 100,000
Sweden: 1.47 gun deaths were 100,000
Norway: 1.78 gun deaths per 100,000

Pound sand.

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #38)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 10:29 AM

50. I'm sorry, what was your point?

Was my quoting someone whining somehow?

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Response to Bay Boy (Original post)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 12:10 PM

8. Great.

Then let's do nothing to even try to stop the massacres. Let's just throw up our hands and accept that tens of thousands of gun deaths a year are the price we MUST pay to keep the Delicate Flowers from having their "The Precious" and their "freedom" taken away.

That about it?

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #8)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 01:55 PM

15. I think the OP

makes a valid point, actually.

When has outlawing anything led to that thing being eradicated?

It didn't work for drugs.

It didn't work for alcohol.

It didn't work for abortion.

Why on earth would anyone think it would work for guns?

It's not the law abiding, peaceful citizens who are doing drive-by shootings, or mass killings. Outlaw guns, and it still won't be the law abiding citizens doing them. It will be the criminals.

I suppose a point could be made that outlawing guns would at least cut down on the numbers of shootings. But would that mean there's an acceptable number of gun deaths people would be willing to ignore?

What then? "Well...we tried".

Not to mention that a whole other set of problems associated with illegal gun sales (like drug dealers) comes to the fore.

What's the answer? I honestly don't know. I do believe, however, that people who think outlawing guns will fix the problem are being a bit...naive.

There are always unintended consequences when people try to outlaw something.

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Response to pipi_k (Reply #15)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 02:00 PM

16. Yep, unconditional surrender is the only option!

It's the new and improved Third Way answer to everything.

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Response to Bay Boy (Original post)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 12:19 PM

9. Unfortunately for progressives, the GOP is in a favorable position...

 

position to outflank Democrats on a social issue: By legalizing & regulating marijuana, they will likely not lose their hard-core bloc of voters (in the name of fiscal responsibility, no less), but stand a good chance of solidifying the libertarian vote and, more importantly, gaining a far bigger bloc if younger voters, a constituency they are in trouble with. The days where GOPers would elect large quantities of RW blowholes cheaply using the "soft on drugs" issue are drawing to a close.

Democrats have been sufficiently cowed on social issues, and won't pick up this hundred-dollar bill, but the GOPers own the out-of-date issue and will look both ways before snatching up an easy prize.

And Democrats will be left clinging to their gun (control).

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #9)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 12:24 PM

10. Would it be safe to blame Ron Paul for this?

Four years ago, he was practically the only Republican who openly spoke about legalizing marijuana and ending the "War on Drugs."

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Response to derby378 (Reply #10)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 12:46 PM

14. Ron Paul did everything but throw money at the GOPer estab.

 

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Response to Bay Boy (Original post)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 02:06 PM

17. Because countries with strict firearms regulation have USA-levels of gun violence, obviously

and "banning assault weapons" (in the most commonly-used description of said "assault weapons" they constitute semi-automatic versions of military-style weapons like the AR and Kalashnikov, with high-capacity magazines) is not "banning guns" (since such a ban would not extend to most lower-capacity semi-automatic and bolt-action hunting rifles). There's also no comparison to the war on drugs; addicts need their drug of choice in order to function normally and stave off withdrawal. Combine addiction with the illegality of drugs and the financial hardships of many drug addicts and what you have is people who'll steal to support their habit; the illegality of drugs leads to a highly lucrative market for organised crime.

Let's look at the most sensible comparison here, to fully-automatic weapons and sawn-off shotguns, regulated under the 1934 NFA. If the argument that regulating some guns while leaving others available will lead to an explosion of organised criminal activity to supply demand for such banned weapons had any merit, then we should be seeing a lot more instances of fully-automatic weapons being trafficked by organised crime, and their use in crime; we aren't.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #17)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 02:49 PM

20. Ah, but we see a *lot* of sawed-off shotguns

I think the NFA is a great law to think about, actually: murders by automatic weapons are essentially unheard of in the US, while murders by sawed-off shotguns (made illegal by the exact same law) are relatively common.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #20)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 03:44 PM

21. Sure, because anyone with a vise and a hacksaw can saw off a shotgun

converting a semi-auto to full-auto requires access to hard to obtain parts, or access to a machine shop, and advanced skill in metal fabrication and machining, generally (making a full-autofrom scratch may be easier...see for instance the Sten gun, where the only things that can't be easily fabricated are rifled barrels and magazines).

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Response to Bay Boy (Original post)

Mon Mar 4, 2013, 03:44 PM

25. "Ken Braun was a legislative aide for a Republican lawmaker in the Michigan House for six years"

Last edited Mon Mar 4, 2013, 04:15 PM - Edit history (1)

Yeah, I'm real interested in what some pro-NRA Republican asshole thinks about sensible gun regulation and laws...



Edit: typo.

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Response to apocalypsehow (Reply #25)

Mon Mar 4, 2013, 04:12 PM

28. I was just going to ask: "who's this chump Ken Braun"?

I didn't think we had another Bill Moyers or David Brinkley in the making.

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Response to Bay Boy (Original post)

Mon Mar 4, 2013, 03:54 PM

26. Sure, because fully automatic weapons are used in crimes all the time.

Oh wait.....

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Response to Bay Boy (Original post)

Mon Mar 4, 2013, 04:12 PM

27. He says all the right buzz words

Banning guns
assault weapons ban
bad guys

Nothing will work

Only good guys will give up guns


This is pure obfuscation

First no one is proposing banning hand guns
Second the assault weapons ban can reduce deaths if linked with a federal background check and federal gun registration.
Third good guys become bad guys when they shoot some innocent person.

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Response to Bay Boy (Original post)

Mon Mar 4, 2013, 04:15 PM

29. Because guns are the same thing as drugs

Well I guess an ADDICT IS AN ADDICT!

Thank you for bringing this Republican propaganda to our attention.

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Response to Bay Boy (Original post)

Mon Mar 4, 2013, 04:26 PM

30. The point is, the fewer assault weapons out there, the better.

This is nothing like the War on Drugs. Nothing.

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Response to Bay Boy (Original post)

Mon Mar 4, 2013, 04:48 PM

31. I'm one of those

 

Take ALL the guns away people. Make it a 20 year MINIMUM if found with just ONE gun. And usually people don't register their drugs. LOL! So we can start with those registered guns. My bag of pot isn't going to kill anyone. It's not going catch fire by accident and spew THC all over the place. So let's just stop all gun laws because we can't do ANYTHING, is pure bullshit.

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Response to Politicalboi (Reply #31)

Wed Mar 6, 2013, 01:31 AM

58. Have you ever considered that the gangs who smuggle your pot into our nation ...

often fight over turf and consequently people die, both gang members and innocent people caught in the crossfire.

A high percentage of the homicides that occur in our nation and in Mexico involve the illegal drug trade. Our War on Drugs has been and will continue to be a total failure.

The simple reality is that our nation is NOT going to ban or confiscate all firearms anytime in the near future, if ever. It is more likely that we can pass laws that would legalize many drugs and take much of the profit out of dealing drugs. Many lives would be saved if we did so.





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Response to Bay Boy (Original post)

Mon Mar 4, 2013, 04:55 PM

32. No legislator has proposed banning all guns.

 

Period.

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Response to Comrade_McKenzie (Reply #32)

Mon Mar 4, 2013, 06:27 PM

33. But plenty of posters here would

applaud one if they did.

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Response to Bay Boy (Reply #33)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 02:15 AM

42. So?

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #42)

Wed Mar 6, 2013, 03:34 AM

59. the fact some here might want to get rid of guns

is essential to gunners here being able to point to the threat of black helicopters sweeping down to deprive them of freedom and the American way. The fact that the congress would never in a million years approve such a thing, of course, is forgotten when making that argument.

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Response to Bay Boy (Original post)

Mon Mar 4, 2013, 06:32 PM

34. Prohibition is a failed public polcy... no matter what you try to prohibit.

licensing, regulation and enforcement are the keys whether it's pot or guns.
IMHO.

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Response to Bay Boy (Original post)

Mon Mar 4, 2013, 06:34 PM

35. Actually gun bans will be less effective than drug bans

 

there are more gun owners in the country than illegal drug users.

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Response to guardian (Reply #35)

Mon Mar 4, 2013, 10:35 PM

39. How many are willing to become illegal gun owners?

What's the attraction?

Mental addiction to arms?
Becoming a criminal with guns to protect yourself from...other criminals with guns?
Become a part of an unlawful combination or eventual insurrection?
To Always have a gun nearby at home 'just in case' though it couldn't lawfully be used or sold?
Have something coveted that just can't part with?
Last gasp of defiance?

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Response to jmg257 (Reply #39)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 01:58 AM

41. How many are willing to become illegal drug users?

 

What's the attraction?

Mental addiction to drugs?
Becoming a criminal with drugs to have fun with other criminals with drugs (and guns)?
Become a part of an unlawful combination or eventual public smoke in?
To Always have a blunt nearby at home 'just in case' though it couldn't lawfully be used or sold?
Have something coveted that just can't part with?
Last gasp of defiance?

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Response to guardian (Reply #41)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 07:53 AM

45. About 22 million.

Addiction a big part.

Are you addicted to your guns?

You like the way they make you feel? Mmm...that's nice.

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Response to jmg257 (Reply #45)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 09:27 AM

46. Doesn't have to be addictive, just socially acceptable at the local level.

Weed isn't particularly addictive, and despite its illegality, it's a very popular recreational drug. People aren't smoking it because it turns them into pot-crazed junkies, they smoke it because it feels good.

Also, lots of people aren't "law-abiding", they're "social-standards-abiding." They look to what's acceptable in their community to determine the propriety of behavior. Millions of Americans break the underage drinking laws because their teenage peers consider it completely socially acceptable to drink before you're 21, people of all ages drive faster than the speed limit all the time, 17-year-old Californian high-schoolers have sex with 16-year-old girlfriends/boyfriends (Statutory rape under California law), millions of all ages smoke weed, etc. All examples of illegal activities which are usually socially acceptable in the context in which the acts are committed.

If a prohibited item is socially unacceptable and illegal, then chances are that it will be hard to find. But if it's socially acceptable and illegal, it'll probably remain present in the areas where it's socially acceptable. Alcohol prohibition was intensely regional, with urban areas like Chicago and New York hugely opposed to prohibition and rural areas being the strongest areas of support for prohibition. Alcohol remained socially acceptable in the cities, to the point where a New York politician like La Guardia could feel comfortable in openly mocking Prohibition by brewing booze in his office in front of reporters. Police in areas where Prohibition was fiercely unpopular weren't going to effectively enforce Prohibition, first of all because chances were that they opposed it and secondly because criminal trials would go to juries, which were cheerfully nullifying Prohibition cases (Estimated at up to 60% of cases ending in nullification).

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Response to dairydog91 (Reply #46)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 09:34 AM

48. Thank you. "Socially acceptable" explained much better then I have the patience to do.

I have little doubt illegally owned guns will be socially acceptable in some locations, however I do not feel they will be as well accepted or tolerated as pot or alcohol.

And I still am a little short in understanding so many potential otherwise lawful gun owners apparently willing to become criminals to keep owning them. Personally it seems a very poor risk to take when faced with a criminal record and jail time.

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Response to jmg257 (Reply #48)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 10:09 AM

49. Why?

I do not feel they will be as well accepted or tolerated as pot or alcohol.
Why? In Berkeley or San Francisco, sure, guns are not accepted or tolerated. In Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Texas, Nebraska, and other rural/mountain states, they're very socially acceptable.

And I still am a little short in understanding so many potential otherwise lawful gun owners apparently willing to become criminals to keep owning them. Personally it seems a very poor risk to take when faced with a criminal record and jail time.
It would also seem to be silly to drink booze during Prohibition. Why risk a criminal record for a drink? Strangely, millions of people were quite willing to do exactly that.

Even if gun possession were made illegal tomorrow, what would be the consequences for someone who owned guns and lived in an area where they are considered acceptable? The local police probably aren't going to come snooping, since most of them will probably consider gun ownership acceptable, and on the off chance that they actually do arrest the gun-owner, is a prosecutor actually going to bring charges? If the prosecutor does bring charges, is a jury pool picked from a population that's 80% in favor of guns going to convict someone for owning guns, or are they just going to nullify the charges like a Prohibition jury?

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Response to guardian (Reply #35)

Wed Mar 6, 2013, 03:35 AM

60. there are no proposed gun bans

So naturally they will be less effective because it's not going to happen.

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Response to Bay Boy (Original post)

Mon Mar 4, 2013, 10:37 PM

40. How about a "Grass for Guns" buy back program? n/t

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Response to Bay Boy (Original post)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 02:49 AM

43. But prohibition will work this time we promise!

Says the prohibitionist every single time before it doesn't work.

At least drugs require a green-thumb/knowledge of chemistry, within 10 years 3-D printers will be able to print a rifle using just plastics.

But it'll work this time! Nah it won't, it never has.

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Response to Bay Boy (Original post)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 09:34 AM

47. prohibition

ending the prohibition and legalizing weed would do more to decrease gun violence in this country then any "gun control" measures that have been proposed recently.

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Response to Crepuscular (Reply #47)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 10:51 PM

57. Pretty much my whole

reason for posting this.

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Response to Bay Boy (Original post)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 11:04 AM

51. Want to make a real dent in gun violence?

End the war on drugs, gun violence would be cut in half. Until they actually propose anything that will work they are just performing theatre and trying to be more authoritarian.

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Response to Bay Boy (Original post)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 06:49 PM

56. who is ken braun and why should i give a flip what he thinks?

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Response to Bay Boy (Original post)

Wed Mar 6, 2013, 03:46 AM

61. So I take it the gun crowd is all in favor of ending the "war on drugs"?

 

No...?

Oh.

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