John Lennon was a wise, wise man.

[Siwsan]

Just when I think I've heard or read all of the great things he had to say, along comes another. Like the rest of us, he had his flaws, but this world is much poorer for his loss.

[99Forever]

1. The only person I have ever held..

.. in the status of hero.


This ugly world could use some John Lennon right about now.

[Frank Cannon]

2. Sorry, but I always found him to be a bit sophomoric.

People always tell me what a genius philosopher he was, but I have never read or heard anything by him that didn't sound like it could have come off the bottom of a Snapple cap.

And he was a wife beater.

And a deadbeat dad.

So flame me if you must, but aside from his musicianship (which was good), I just don't get all the hero worship.

[Siwsan]

3. No flames. Not my style

I expected some differing opinions and I did say he was flawed. I disagree about your assessment of his words, but then I'm allowed. I think he was finally getting his life together, before he was murdered, but then that's just my observation. I have yet to see anyone people consider a hero who WASN'T/ISN'T very flawed.

[gateley]

4. I think he wanted to to what was right.

[EastKYLiberal]

5. He was no genius philosopher.

But he used his spotlight as a musician to say and do things that wouldn't have received as much attention coming from an average Joe or a Snapple cap.

And died way too young.

P.S. I would trust no hero without flaws. Anyone that appears to be without flaws, probably has the most.

[tavernier]

6. Wow.

I thought I was the only one... and I wouldn't have had the courage to answer like you did.

I don't like to think ill of the dead so I won't add to the negative list, but he was never a hero to me.

But, like you said, his talents shine to this day, both in music and clever lyrics, and it is my understanding that his wife takes on many charities in his name, so there is much goodness that happens because of his legacy.

[dorkulon]

8. I'm with you.

Lennon was a talented guy, but the way people have made him a messianic figure is a bit off-putting. He may have preached peace, but in reality he was an angry and derisive person.

[In Truth We Trust]

14. Just curious; who's musicianship would you describe as great?

[Frank Cannon]

31. I actually think Paul and George were better musicians.

And they seemed to take it a lot more seriously, particularly towards the end of the Beatles' relationship. I mean, IMHO.

[RudynJack]

34. Agree with George..

Paul, not so much, but I agree it's arguable.

But decades later, listening to it all, George was the lasting talent.

Edit: I don't mean to say John and Paul have no lasting talent. I love them both... but George touches me in a special way.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

40. Wow, well, if you don't think Paul McCartney is a supremely talented musician, you disagree with

most of the experts.

[RudynJack]

45. ok

I'm a dolt. Ebony and Ivory is genius. Hold on... someone's knocking at the door.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

46. Judge everyone by their worst moments, do you?

[RudynJack]

48. do i need

to name more awful McCartney songs? I can.

And as I said... I LIKE McCartney.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

49. Anyone who's written as many songs a McCartney has, and who is as lousy at telling which are

not his best, will have at least as many bad ones on record as him. However, few of them will have written anything as good as his any of his many, many gems.

For instance:

Here, There and Everywhere
Penny Lane
For No One
Back In The U.S.S.R
All My Loving
Paperback Writer
I Will
We Can Work It Out
Eleanor Rigby
Blackbird
And I Love Her
Got To Get You Into My Life
Helter Skelter
I Saw Her Standing There
Yesterday
Things We Said Today
Hey Jude
I'm Looking Through You

And those are just the Beatles years.

Also, musicianship is not just songwriting. Not only is he a revered bass player, but he is highly respected as a multi-instrumentalist, which, of course, is musicianship.

[lunamagica]

62. ITA. Well said, Like I said in another post, dissing Paul became a sport after John died

but as you stated, among experts -real musicians- Paul is a giant.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

64. Exactly!

Cut my reply short since it will probably never be seen, but still wanted to welcome your words. : )

[progressoid]

54. ha!

[Blue_In_AK]

55. I disagree with most of the experts.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

65. I'm betting you know little about McCartney's music. But whatever...

[Blue_In_AK]

66. Well, I was in high school when the Beatles first came to America

so, yes, I'm familiar with Paul McCartney's music. I personally prefer his Beatles songwriting to the pop fluff that he did later as a solo artist. I suspect the challenge of working with John and George stimulated his creativity. But that's just my personal taste. Obviously, you don't agree.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

67. Your reply strengthens my belief that your knowledge of McCartney's post-Beatles music is limited.

Reducing his huge catalog to "Pop Fluff" shows a distinct lack of familiarity with the range of creativity one discovers when considering the entirety of his output.

George himself said that it was working with Lennon and McCartney that spurred his creativity, though, certainly there was more two-way-street to it later in the Beatles' carreer. Lennon also said basically the same thing about McCartney, and, to a lesser degree, Harrision.

[Blue_In_AK]

68. The phrase "to each his own" comes to mind.

Now I'm done discussing this with you.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

52. The Beatles are my all-time favorite band, and I love George, but for me he is not in quite the same

league as Lennon and McCartney. Obviously, some disagree. But, however good he was, he put out some crap, too.

The Worst of George Harrison: How a Pop Icon Made Some of the Most Disappointing Albums Ever
By Pete Prown 6 August 2012
Page 1 of 2Go to: 12 Next page: The Great Hiatus Single page


There can be no disputing George Harrison’s gifts. From the mid-1960s through the early ’70s, he was one of rock’s savant geniuses, an underdog who sat at the feet of master songwriters like John Lennon and Paul McCartney, as well as friend Bob Dylan, learning their craft and later writing songs that rivaled and occasionally exceeded theirs. In addition, Harrison’s 1970 opus, All Things Must Pass, is universally regarded as the finest solo album by any ex-Beatle and rightly so. Yet only a few years later, it all began to unravel. From 1974 to 1982, Harrison recorded a string of LPs that, in retrospect, range from the quirky and mediocre to the shockingly awful. How did the former Fab Four guitarist stray so far off the path of inevitable pop stardom? PopMatters investigates.

If you watch Martin Scorsese’s much-heralded recent film, Living in the Material World, you may get the idea that George Harrison, who died in 2001, led a largely flawless music career—and that’s the way fans like it. They like to jump straight from 1973’s hit single “Give Me Love (Give Me Peace on Earth)” to Harrison’s late ’80s comeback with Cloud Nine and the ensuing supergroup, the Traveling Wilburys. But there’s a 14-year gap that fans don’t like to discuss or even recall. In fact, the Quiet Beatle recorded six other studio albums during that epoch, each of which gives us insight into a rock ‘n’ roll legend literally at the bottom of his game. No question, there are some Harrison gems to be found here, but sadly, they’re often lost in the mire of this dreary epoch.

http://www.popmatters.com/pm/feature/161357-the-worst-of-george-harrison/

[lunamagica]

58. I agree with you, esp about Paul

The man is pure music. Sadly, after John's death it putting him down almost became a sport. But most real musicians recognize Paul as the musical force and innovator behind the band.

Funny that no one seems to notice that as Paul's influence on the band grew, it became more sophisticated and daring; the majority of their most acclaimed work came during the later years.

IMO Paul's biggest sin was surviving John and George.

[Tom Rinaldo]

17. My Two Cents

Yes John Lennon was a flawed human being. But he had the courage to grow away from his flaws when he didn't have to, when the world had already given him a life time get out of jail free pass just because he reached the status of mega celebrity who could always have anything he wanted. What he wanted was to become a better human being. What he wanted was for people to stop killing each other in wars.

Yes John Lennon was a wife beater, and then he wasn't anymore. On Sgt. Pepper he wrote about it in song "I used to be cruel to my woman I beat her and kept her apart from the things that she loved. Man I was mean but I'm changing my scene and I'm doing the best that I can..." Later he went on the write "Woman is the Nigger of the World". If you don't know that song I suggest that you check it out.

As a young man at the height of his powers and with his ego being stuffed daily with every accolade known to humanity he stuggled to change course and become less self centered than he was before. He embraced therapy to help understand how the wounds of his youth contributed to bitterness that caused him to hurt other people.

When male pop stars were gods and the Beatles were the Kings of Rock heaven John Lennon fell in love with an older woman, not a groupie. People used to insult Yoko because she wasn't a hot young thing. People used to think John needed to put his woman in her place and not let her in any way overshadow his shining career with the Beatles. John thought otherwise.

When John could have retired to a decadent mansion behind gated walls he moved to New York City and got involved with local musicians of no national fame making leftist topical music.

John knew he fucked up with his first son, and though he wasn't good at undoing his past mistakes he did make some efforts to do so. However he took his past failings as a father deeply to heart when he had his second chance at making a family and he really really tried to do it better and differently.

John Lennon had the world on a silver platter at the heigfht of his fame with the Beatles. He could easily have become an arrogant pompous selfish elitist asshole but he knew he had to try to be a better human being than that - and that is why John Lennon is a hero to me. I don't know how closely you tracked him in life, but he became a roll model to me for his openess. He didn't deny his flaws, he didn't pretend he was perfect, he didn't try to sweep under the rugh the uglier parts of his younger days, or the struggles he still had as an adult. He admitted them and talked openly and personally about all of it. He kept trying to improve and hid did it in public when no one other than possibly Yoko was forcing him to try. I gave John Lennon an A+++ for effort even when his results barely clocked in at B-, and that was always an inspiration to me.

[Siwsan]

21. Thank you for your words!

John was a complex but eventually VERY self aware man. The good he did definitely outweighed any damages he did. If those he wronged could forgive him, who are we to continue to judge??

I've always said if there IS an afterlife, I'm hoping amongst the first people I see, there will be John Lennon and Crazy Horse.

[Unknown Beatle]

25. Bravo!

Couldn't have said it better or more eloquently put. John Lennon will always be an influence in my life.

Precisely because of Lennon at the beginning of Beatlemania after they appeared on Ed Sullivan in Feb. 1964, I wanted a guitar. My dad bought me a cheap acoustic guitar in the summer of that year. As a result, in the mid 70's, I played with a couple of bands in the local music scene making the night club rounds. To put it mildly, I sucked big time in my attempt at serious guitar playing. I still suck, but I still play guitar just to relax.

John Lennon Lives!

[Freddie]

28. Read "Loving John" by May Pang

Book has been re-published as "The Lost Weekend". Fascinating portrait of John at a very troubled point in his life and what a complex person he was. I've read many books about him and would recommend this one highly.

[Tom Rinaldo]

29. Thank you for that suggestion. I will. n/t

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

41. Nicely said! I wish he'd been able to make it up to Julian--it must have been hard to see

John so determined to be a great father to Sean, even though it was obviously a positive change.

[RudynJack]

47. yes

Thank you.

[deutsey]

53. Excellent

Anyone who's a fan of the real John Lennon (not the icon) can relate to this post. Thanks!

[Union Scribe]

20. I quite agree. nt

[NoGOPZone]

35. See, you weren't flamed

I find that Lennon fans are generally will tolerate the opposing view. Now if you had something like Hendrix wasn't the best guitarist ever, or Zappa put out a lot of garbage along with his classics, or that Rush shouldn't have made the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, to name a few, you would have gotten an earful from their acolytes.

Lennon I think was a keen observer of the world around him and was a master at articulating this into a pithy memorable phrase. Whether that makes him a genius philosopher is debatable, although I think he's closer than almost any other popular musician of the rock era, except Dylan.

[tridim]

7. Probably didn't really happen, but it's a good quote nonetheless.

Kind of like his explanation for Lucy In the Sky with Diamonds.

[Siwsan]

9. Maybe, but it sure sounds like something he would say

I suspect he was a deep thinker and mind-speaker, even as a kid.

[Fiendish Thingy]

19. The story of Lucy is true

As verified by his son Julian, his schoolmate Lucy, and the existence of the drawing that was the inspiration for the song.

[tridim]

27. I still don't buy it.

Never did, never will. Sorry.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

43. Fiendish Thingy!!! Run, Ringo!!

[Enrique]

10. so was Lincoln

[Siwsan]

11. I think he did, but if he didn't say it, who ever did was a wise, wise person. OK?

Yikes, almost said wise, wise MAN. Now THAT would have gotten me flamed.

BTW, Love, love the Lincoln!!

[Heather MC]

13. Lincoln was so wise beyond his years

[Heather MC]

12. All we are saying, is give peace a chance

&feature=fvwrel

[mountain grammy]

18. Those simple lyrics say it all..... I just miss Lennon's future like I miss the future

of any talented or wise human who changed our world and our culture for good and was taken from us too soon and too suddenly. Imagine what they might have accomplished if they could influence so many in the short time they were given.

[A Simple Game]

15. Wow, Lennon sure was smart as a five year old.

I can't imagine a five year old saying that. I can believe the happy part, but the rest?
I have no doubt he thought that he said it.

[Siwsan]

16. Could be - I hadn't thought of that. However.....

I have a brother who was more than clever enough to spout something like that, at 5, and did. He sometimes left his teachers gob smacked. And he's not near as clever as John Lennon. (Sorry, bro, but it's true.)

[jerseyjack]

22. Mom gave him the perspective at age 5. The answer to the teacher could have been at age 15.

[Siwsan]

23. Lots of interesting perspective from lots of interesting people - it's why I love DU

[Honeycombe8]

24. Yes, the world is worse off, without him here. I miss his presence. Imagine...

(hey, I didn't mean that to be a pun!), but imagine all the things he'd have to say about what's going on in the country these days. About Iraq, Afghanistan, the Patriot Act, the Republicans, guns.....imagine.

[narnian60]

33. Yes, indeed.

Well said.

[avebury]

26. K&R nt

[WillyT]

30. HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!!

[Wilms]

32. ^

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

38. I love John Lennon, but this is not his quote.

http://ianchadwick.com/blog/not-a-john-lennon-quote-just-another-bad-meme/

[Siwsan]

39. Well, fortunately I never claimed to be a wise, wise woman

I guess life handed me a Lennon and I made Lennon Ade???

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

44. Sorry, I only posted the link as a reference that it was not his quote. I didn't mean to heap the

snark on you, though I do admit to agreeing with most of it.

However, as for the misquote, as Lennon himself did say, "Gimme some truth."

[Siwsan]

60. Hey, we're cool!

Always love to learn, and/or update!

[WinkyDink]

42. My father didn't care for Lennon's music, but he thought "In His Own Write" was proof of genius.

[Siwsan]

59. How about "A Spaniard In The Work" - also by Lennon

Both books were a really fun to read. You had to keep your intellectual wheels a whirling to get to the bottom of what he was writing, that's for sure.

[DryHump]

50. "Watching the Wheels Go Round"

...by the end, he was practicing a spare, spiritual path. Not afraid to be a house husband, a nobody. He was working on himself.

[Omaha Steve]

51. I was watching Tora Tora Tora when Marta came in to tell me the news

I stayed in my room listening to Beatle music on KRCB-FM around the clock the weekend they broke up. Lots of tears that weekend.

For somebody that wanted WORLD Peace to be killed by a gun.....

It is covered very well in Mr Hollands Opus too.

[Siwsan]

61. I was stationed in San Diego and thought, for sure, they meant Jack Lemon

It was still relatively early when the news broke. A friend called me, in shock, and I just kept HOPING she had mis-heard. And I was a big Jack Lemon fan, too, and certainly didn't want him to die like that, but to lose John in such a violent way was unimaginable. Still is.

[LeftInTX]

57. John had a rough childhood

His parents separated when he was a baby. Then they fought over him. Then he lived with relatives.

He probably did want to be happy when he grew up, but he didn't have the serenity at a young age to articulate this.

[lunamagica]

63. Rough? Yes his parents separated, and then his father, his mother, and his aunt her husband wanted

him.

His aunt and uncle got to keep and raised him.

He grew up being loved, in a nice house, well dressed and Fed, healthy and safe.

Calling such childhood "rough" is almost an insult to so many children who grow up neglected, abused, hungry and homeless.

Lennon himself cringed when he heard people talking about his hard childhood, because he never felt it was an accurate description of his early life