So, those who claimed the police burned Chris Dorner to death

[geek tragedy]

We await your conspiracy theory as to why the coroner found he died of a gunshot to the head.

Capt. Kevin Lacy of the San Bernardino County Sheriff-Coroner said a 6-hour autopsy conducted by the Riverside County Coroner’s Division showed that Dorner died of a single gunshot wound to the head.

“During the autopsy yesterday, the doctor who conducted the process, concluded that the cause of death was a single gunshot wound to the head,” Lacy said, adding that officials are not yet ready to comment on the manner of his death.

“We will tell you that while we’re still compiling the information and putting our reports together, the information that we have right now seems to indicate that the wound that took Christopher Dorner’s life was self-inflicted,” Lacy said.

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013/02/15/sheriff-john-mcmahon-dorner-died-from-gunshot-to-head/

If he died of suicide, not much to be outraged about, ergo he must not have committed suicide.

[NYC_SKP]

1. You'd shoot yourself in the head, too, if your other option was to burn to death.

We don't know that they did or did not prevent his ability to surrender.

We don't know that he did or didn't choose suicide over just walking out the door.

We don't know if he even had the choice.

Not much of a conspiracy theory, I suppose.

I just abhor the burning up of buildings by law enforcement when there are other options.

[geek tragedy]

3. His other option was to fulfill his legal duty to surrender and walk out hands on head

Kind of funny how the outrage junkies miss that one.

[NYC_SKP]

6. Presumes doors weren't locked or blocked from outside.

I wasn't there, you weren't there.

Unlikely, but not impossible, who knows...

[geek tragedy]

7. Sounds like something for the Creative Speculation forum.

Perhaps the "no plane hit the Pentagon" caucus can opine.

[loli phabay]

19. does anyone with any credibility still opine the pentagon was not a plane

[geek tragedy]

23. No one with any credibility ever maintined that in the first place. nt

[loli phabay]

25. true but there are stull people who claim weird stuff about it

[geek tragedy]

28. Well, here we have "maybe the police ran up to the sniper's position and physically placed a

barricade at the door."

It's fiction writing.

[Adsos Letter]

40. And Dorner sat there and allowed them to do it.

Just, as they say, to make things a little more interesting.

[geek tragedy]

42. How does one lock a house's door from the outside?

This is my favorite CT of the day.

[Adsos Letter]

49. I suppose they could have gotten the key from the owner.

Which is a ridiculous thought on the very face of it.

Yeah, the CT stuff is really getting into some serious woo, imo.

[geek tragedy]

50. But you could still unlock it from the inside.

People are clutching at straws as well as their pearls.

[Adsos Letter]

51. Indeed. n/t

[hfojvt]

89. not if it is a double deadbolt and you have no key

AHA!!

[uppityperson]

20. While being shot at, police ran up and locked/blocked the doors so he couldn't get out?

That is something.

[geek tragedy]

22. I think they used chemtrails. nt

[cherokeeprogressive]

30. LEO pulled WALLS down... there wasn't a door that could have kept him inside.

[jberryhill]

75. The lock didn't stop him on the way in

I guess someone called a locksmith to fix it once he was inside this windowless house.

[geek tragedy]

101. I think it was Peregrine Took logic that took hold, and the cops should have seen it coming.

"The closer you are to danger, the further away from harm."

Cops should have known that he'd choose the safe way out by staying inside a burning building, and the even safer route of shooting himself.

[VanillaRhapsody]

76. after seeing what happened to those ladies delivering newspapers that was a viable option for him?

Kind of funny how some overlook that.

[uppityperson]

77. You do know that was a totally different set of cops, right?

LAPD vs county sheriffs.

[quakerboy]

78. Does that make that much difference?

It never seems to make a lot of difference from one group of law enforcement to another. They all scratch each others backs, and very very few of them step across the blue line when things go wrong.

[uppityperson]

83. So if 1 set of police shoot someone who just happens to be human, then you assume a different set

will not let someone else surrender? Because...all cops are the same? I must say I expected something different from a quaker name with ghandi as an icon. I am surprised.

[VanillaRhapsody]

94. 7 cops were involved in the shooting of those women

yeah that happens EVERY day!

[uppityperson]

97. You do know that was a totally different set of cops, right?

LAPD vs county sheriffs.

[VanillaRhapsody]

98. Thin Blue Line mean anything to you?

[uppityperson]

99. I am having brussel sprouts for supper tonight.

[quakerboy]

114. I made no such assumption

I have no idea if he was given an opportunity to surrender.

I do know that police everywhere regularly shoot other citizens with little or no reason. I do know that Police officers regularly brutalize citizens, all over the nation. LAPD is not some odd case in this, it is just one more example among many.

Are all cops intending to be bad cops? No. I imagine many of them join on intending to make the world a better place. But the fact is they do not cross the blue line once they are in. And that includes protecting the bad apples among them from justice, against the needs of the public, against the rights of innocents, against the law. And that makes them, as a group, corrupt. Even the ones who have never harassed a passerby or shot someone.

[uppityperson]

115. Since they were looking for him for days, seems he could have given himself up at some point.

I agree that the Cop Code (my term) makes it difficult to get any supervision of them and makes the system corrupt.

[geek tragedy]

91. Please. It's his fault and his fault alone he didn't surrender.

His entire goal was to kill as many cops (as well as the children and spouses of cops) before dying himself. He had ample opportunity to surrender, and refused it.

[jberryhill]

95. So, you are saying "he shot himself in the head to avoid being shot"?

I guess those ladies delivering newspapers should have guns, so they would have been able to save themselves by shooting themselves in the head too!

[VanillaRhapsody]

96. Saying if my choices are...

being riddled with bullets and whatever else that meant by the same guys who just sent 7 "burners" into the building to potentially burn me alive....or shoot myself in the head. Yeah...I'd choose to shoot myself in the head instead.

[energumen]

113. no

He shot himself in the head to avoid going to jail
Cops, even ex cops, aren't terribly popular there

[treestar]

100. Agreed.

They skip that entirely. They post like we all have a right to hold the cops to a standoff to the death. Indefinitely.

[Webster Green]

44. No shit!

Did they really need to burn the place to the ground?

WTF?!

[Cali_Democrat]

68. This is true. We saw that on Sep11th

People would rather jump from a 110 story building than be burned alive.

[treestar]

102. HIs other option was to tell them he would surrender

[Puzzledtraveller]

2. My opposition if you could call it that was

the military style massive deployment man hunt etc, we don't go after persons much worse than him with that kind of determination. As far as this report goes I believe it. I never believed he was cooked alive.

[Trajan]

4. Yet another fallacious appeal ...

I have learned a lot about you this last week ...

Disgusting ..

[geek tragedy]

5. So, you admit you were wrong?

Or are you alleging a cover up?

[Trajan]

10. Bifurcation fallacy

I do nothing of the sort ... any reasonable person can see the snide misdirection of this line of discussion ...

I meant what I said before ...

We are done, O'Fallacious one ...

[geek tragedy]

55. The CT that the cops meant to burn him alive has one slight flaw:

Dorner could have foiled it by leaving the cabin.

It's a little known fact that some people, when inside a burning building, decide to walk from inside the building to an area outside the building.

As it turns out, Dorner had a legal obligation to walk out of that cabin, hands on his head, before the use of the weaker tear gas, before the use of the CS gas, and before the fire started.

But, it wasn't too late for him to walk out of the cabin when the fire did start.

Amazingly, the police plot to burn him to death never contemplated this possibility!!!!

[sabrina 1]

61. Were you there? The News media reported, and played the tape to prove it, that

the cops burned the cabin. I watched the reporting and heard the tape that night. If he killed himself, then it was unnecessary to burn down the cabin. Why did they do that? There was an army outside, he wasn't going anywhere other than committing suicide which in his case was probably what he intended anyhow.

He was wrong to do what he did regardless of his reasons, however the problem the LAPD has is their own reputation, not too many people have much faith in them so there will be plenty of CTs and plenty or reminders of other incidents, which I have already seen on the MSM, of their own past behavior. And that is the problem when the cops are allowed to use excessive force so often in this country with no consequences, they lose respect from the people. And that is no CT, it is a fact and something badly needs to be done about it.

[geek tragedy]

69. He killed himself after the cops sent in the industrial strength tear gas

Unclear whether he shot himself because of the tear gas or the fire, since he was in the basement.

[2pooped2pop]

87. For Gawds sake it was obvious that he shot himself

and they have admitted they caused the fires even if they say unintentionally.

Not a damned thing is new here but you keep trying to start a DU fight.

This is my last response to you on it, but damn dude, give it a rest already. It appears that you like to shit stir.

It was obvious that after the fire started he shot himself. DUH!

Now, I do hope they check to make sure it was him who killed the deputy. I saw a video of a bunch of cops walking along and one just stops and starts shooting into the woods. Hopefully into empty woods but what a fucked foolhardy thing to do.

Oh by the way, we have a guy in our area who just killed two people and put a 7 year old in ICU. I'm just waiting for all the massive police effort here to find him. Oh, no massive manhunt for him? Got to kill a cop for that? Two systems of justice in this land. One for them and one for us. You won't see it till it's pointed at you, but one day it may be. You will see the injustice the poor see daily.

Good day to you, Geek. May we agree on another topic someday. I said Good Day!

[Agschmid]

34. Alerted on...

Voted to leave but you could reconsider wording I guess.

At Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:37 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Yet another fallacious appeal ...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2383619

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

"Disgusting" is a personal attack

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:48 PM, and the Jury voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Disgusting is *not* a personal attack. I've seen much worse. Sorry.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: At first I wondered if he meant the idea was disgusting, but no, it wasn't worded that way, so yes I think it is a personal attack.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Logical]

8. LOL, what logic is that? When they set it on fire, they didn't know he was dead. Get it? n-t

[geek tragedy]

9. He wasn't dead when they sent the CS gas in. There was a gunshot after they did. nt

[Logical]

12. Funny, so your defense is they tried to burn him to death but he shot himself first so no foul?

[geek tragedy]

13. No, they used the stronger version of tear gas after the weaker one didn't get him out.

Occam's Razor--they used tear gas for the purpose police always use tear gas.

[Logical]

14. You know it is possible that Dormer is a worthless piece of shit and the police are corrupt idiots?

[geek tragedy]

17. Some police are. You have no evidence these police were.

Incendiary tear gas usually does not start a fire. Sometimes it does.

It does release a nasty form of tear gas all the time.

Logic.

[Logical]

21. OK, I love this. Please justify shooting the paper delivery van and the surfer. Sunspots? n-t

[geek tragedy]

26. Those were completely unacceptable and should be referred to a grand jury.

See what I did there? I judged what one group of cops did on its own merit based on the facts, rather than picking a side of either "cops good" or "cops bad" and forcing my theory to fit that assumption.

Logic says that when police use tear gas in the situation where tear gas is usually used, they were using it as tear gas. Especially since CS gas usually does not start a fire.

[Logical]

31. How much do you know about Grand Juries and police being charged? n-t

[geek tragedy]

33. Sorry, I guess that calling for a criminal investigation and due process

for criminal suspects is illegitimate when the suspected bad guys are cops.

[Adsos Letter]

43. +1

I judged what one group of cops did on its own merit based on the facts, rather than picking a side of either "cops good" or "cops bad" and forcing my theory to fit that assumption.

And that speaks directly to much of what fuels the CT stuff on this case, imo.

[geek tragedy]

46. Of course. Nt

[loli phabay]

27. diffwrent police than the sheriffs ar big bear

[Archae]

38. Never ascribe to malice...

What can better be explained with simple stupidity.

And the cops who shot at the surfer and the delivery ladies were simply stupid.
Blithering stupid, they should be fired.

[BainsBane]

64. stupid, negligent, and incompetent

and should definitely be fired.

[treestar]

103. that was decided here on DU before it even happened

It's obvious there are many posters who always intended to find LAPD at fault.

[PufPuf23]

11. I am glad the incident is over and glad there were no hostages or any other deaths.

Dorner was not going to get out of that cabin alive regardless.

There is no excuse for his actions at all. He got what he deserved, expected and wanted according to his manifesto.

I can hold in my head the likely facts that he killed himself even before the fire and that the fire was deliberately set by law enforcement at the same time.

What is so hard about holding these thoughts simulotaneously and what the heck does that have to with with conspiracy theory?

Seems to me the events as they unfolded were straightforward.

[geek tragedy]

15. Well, you realize that the tear gas they used usually doesn't start a raging inferno?

It's tear gas, not a fire bomb.

[PufPuf23]

24. I listened to the scanner tapes and watched the video.

Reminded me of the end of the SLA.

What is your problem besides denial of your own eyes and ears?

It happened its over, let us hope that like events don't occur in the future.

[geek tragedy]

29. Yes, the CS gas did start a fire.

That does not mean that was the plan, merely that it was a possibility when they launched it.

[PufPuf23]

32. Listen to the scanner tapes.

To paraphrase, "follow the plan and burn the motherfucker".

That fact is every bit as evident as that Dohner was a murdering asshole.

Use your ears. Done.

[geek tragedy]

35. Two different tapes. The guy screaming burn the motherfucker is not

in command and that does not happen in the same time frame as the deployment of the CS gas.

[uppityperson]

37. Do you have a link to those? I keep reading about them but haven't come across them and would like

to hear it for myself. Thank you.

[PufPuf23]

45. In a rapid scan of the video forum this is the first I found.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/101798582

I don't have a great internet connection.

[uppityperson]

47. I listened and nothing about "burn that m-fucker" or anything like that.

[PufPuf23]

57. I agree the burn MF is not on that video as I had listened just to where they start talking about

the burn plan about one minute in (edit to add)when posted.

You may very well be correct that the burn plan and burn the motherfucker were not at the same time and obviously not the same person.

That tape is obvious the fire was set deliberately by plan. That fact is extremely clear, no doubt.

One can also find tapes with the burn the motherfucker.

I don't get the big deal?

Dohner was a murderous asshole and what happened happened and he got what he asked for in his manifesto.

The fact is there are tapes that have law enforcement talking about a burn plan and and acting on it.

The fact is if one looks some more there are law enforcement rather emotionally saying burn the motherfucker.

I am not making any value judgement at all except Dohner was a murderous asshole.

These are the only Dohner posts I have even made.

Both that there was an enacted burn plan and the statement burn the motherfucker out are recorded cannot be questioned if one listens to tapes available at DU.

Ye gads, did better if had not tried to clarify in edit. lol

[uppityperson]

59. Aside from "burn the m-f-er", I am wondering if "burn" in the case of tear gas means it is working?

jargon/lingo sort of thing? I have no clue, just wondering if the term is used in that way since every profession or group ends up using words in a jargon way that isn't common useage for the rest of us.

I have no dog in this fight, have made few Dorner posts also.

And very much agree that the actions of all the police and sheriffs involved will need close investigation.

I'd like to hear the "burn the mfer" but not enough to go listen to a bunch of vids hoping it is in there, if that makes sense.

[geek tragedy]

48. The "burn this motherfucker" tape was from hours earlier.

From some guys getting shot at.

[TorchTheWitch]

72. Link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022364793

It was posted on DU earlier. Someone says "burn that motherfucker" and "burn him out". That says to me that the intention (as is always the intention in such a drastic measure) in burning the cabin - had it been burned on purpose - was to burn it to force him out of the cabin. I had always thought that "burn that motherfucker" referred to the cabin, not to Dorner as in 'burn that motherfucking cabin' anyway. Seems pretty clear to me that was what was meant seeing as it was followed by "burn him out".

[HipChick]

16. At this, it's hard to know what to believe..reporting on this case was terribly mis-managed..

[geek tragedy]

18. Autopsy says bullet to the brain. Pretty straightforward.

It takes a long time to burn to death.

This was pretty obvious.

[uppityperson]

39. Goes to show you should not expect Latest Breaking News to necessarily be accurate. Speed does not

mean accuracy. I agree, the reporting has been terrible. Most reporting on things as they are happening are.

[blkmusclmachine]

36. Here's a nice pastry for you.

[Nevernose]

52. Not mutually exclusive

He might have killed himself in close conjunction with the arson. And one might have occurred before the other. Right now, the evidence looks like Dorner intended to kill himself while, simultaneously, the police were planning to kill him via arson.

The middle ground is not always a fallacy. Just because one was in the wrong does not mean the other was in the right. They can both be wrong. If you don't believe me, check out the Israel/Palestine forum.

[geek tragedy]

53. No, it is not even reasonable that the police were planning to kill him with arson.

EVEN IF the police meant to start that fire, the most likely outcome (other than suicide) would have been Dorner leaving the building, either with his hands on his head or on the trigger of his gun. (Bonus Clash reference).

Which is exactly the purpose of a tear gas use in the first place.

[Nevernose]

54. I give you mad props for the Clash reference

But I doubt there is anything that could convince me that they had even the slightest intention of taking him alive. I know too many cops, and worked too long in the DA's office.

[geek tragedy]

56. Well, the truth is somewhere along the lines of:

Rules of engagement were to accept a surrender if the subject was clearly not a threat. But, if any part of him even twitches, take no chances.

The more dangerous a fugitive, the less likely he will be taken alive.

[theKed]

58. Soooooooo...

They knew he was dead by self-inflicted gunshot, then proceeded to torch the building?

I don't get it.

[BainsBane]

65. how could they know?

Since they weren't in the cabin?

[geek tragedy]

71. The autopsy was conducted after they sent the tear gas in. By about a day or so. nt

[davidn3600]

60. People choose to jump out of a 100-story building rather than burn to death on 9/11

Which would you choose? Burn to death or shoot yourself. That's the option the cops gave Dorner.

[bigapple1963]

62. interesting!!!

Why didn't Dorner jump out of the ground floor window instead of shooting himself?

Why did he shoot himself before the fire started? Oh no, I'm gonna burn to death! I better shoot myself before the fire starts.

[Bolo Boffin]

63. Not sure I agree with your police work there, bigapple1963.

If Dorner shot himself before the fire started, then he didn't start the fire. That leaves only the police to start the fire.

If the police knew he'd shot himself, why send in the flammable tear gas and start the fire? Obviously they thought he was still alive (assuming he was actually dead before all this) and sent in the tear gas, knowing (some police on tape loudly hoping) that it could start a fire.

So they didn't burn him to death. It's clear to me and a lot of people that they either tried to or didn't care if they did. I don't agree at all with Dorner's actions here, but the LAPD has much to answer for as well.

[bigapple1963]

67. what about this scenario

Police sent him tear gas and started tearing down the walls.
He was overwhelmed by the tear gas and knew that police were coming.
He didn't want to surrender so he shot himself.
Tear gas causes the fire.

LAPD wasn't in charge of the final operations at the cabin.



By the way, how badly his lungs were burnt and whether there was any smoke in his lungs can pretty much prove the sequence of events (whether he shot himself before or after the fire started).

[Bolo Boffin]

73. You still have gross neglience bordering on intent on the part of the police

LAPD has a lot to answer for, whether they were in charge at the end or not.

[BainsBane]

66. If I had wanted to surrender

I would have called the media and announced my intentions.

[geek tragedy]

70. Option 3: LEAVE THE BUILDING

Upon leaving the building, he could either continue shooting at the cops, or surrender.

I've seen about 5 people act is if shooting himself and burning to death were options, but WALKING OUT OF THE BUILDING wasn't.

[jberryhill]

74. I guess what we've learned today

Is that people who work in tall office buidlings should bring a gun, in case there is a fire.

"Have a good day at the office dear, and don't forget your gun."

Wayne LaPierre should be all over this!

[geek tragedy]

90. Dorner would still be alive if there had been a good guy with a gun there. nt

[JaneyVee]

109. Are you the real Sam Harris, the author?

[geek tragedy]

110. I hope to god not, for the real Sam Harris's sake. nt

[quakerboy]

79. I thought he was found in a basement?

Did I misunderstand that?

[TorchTheWitch]

86. He was

Apparently, at some point he made the decision to hole up in the basement where he shot himself. So, instead of leaving the house when it caught fire and surrendering he chose to hole up in the basement and kill himself before burning or choking to death.

[quakerboy]

112. That would seem to make sense

Its interesting all the permutations that this case presents. There really doesn't seem to be a "good guy" in the whole scenario, except perhaps the ladies in the truck that got shot up.

[Bonobo]

80. Dude, your stuff lately has more red herrings than Russia in autumn.

The police's conduct or misconduct has nothing to do with him shooting himself in the head.

How can you NOT see that?

[steve2470]

81. a little more info:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-dorner-20130216,0,3243239.story

*snip*

The blaze started shortly after police fired "pyrotechnic" tear gas into the cabin; the canisters are known as "burners" because the intense heat they emit often causes a fire.

Sheriff's Capt. Gregg Herbert, who led the assault on the cabin, said the canisters were used only as a last resort after Dorner continued firing at deputies, ignored commands to surrender and did not respond when "cold," less intense tear gas was shot into the wood-framed dwelling.

Herbert said that a tractor was deployed to tear down walls of the cabin to expose Dorner's whereabouts inside, but that Dorner set off smoke bombs to hide himself. Storming the cabin was considered too dangerous because of the belief that Dorner "was lying in wait for us," he said.

"This was our only option," Herbert said of the pyrotechnic tear gas, adding that the potential for igniting a fire was taken into account.

*snip*

[left on green only]

82. Being that Chris Dorner was a one time member of the LA Pig Force himself.......

....I am sure that he would have already known that setting fire to, and burning down houses where any high profile stand-off battle rages, is the SOP of the LA pigs. One case in point that I am sure could not have escaped his radar was a "few" years earlier when the Pigs set fire to, and burned down the house in LA suburbia where Donald DeFreeze (Sen Que, SLA) was holed up in.

That having been said, I am also sure that he had enough mental acuity to know well enough how to "pick his battles". And I am also of a mind to say that he therefore must have decided of his own accord that his end was going to happen in the way that it did. He must have known, well before the stand off began, that it was only a matter of time before the pigs would set the house on fire, and that after the flames began, he would then have the option of either being slowly burned alive (viz DeFreeze), or else checking out very quickly through an action of his own doing.

I remember noting also back after the DeFreeze incident how the "official statement" from the pigs (spoken out of the right side of their mouth) was that they had "no idea" how the house fire got started ("musta been a 'hot' bullet, ya think?&quot .

I am not condoning in any way the horrific actions that Dorner accomplished before his demise. But I do think that the bigger story behind that scene, is the corruption within the organization that he targeted. He must have fully realized that there was no way that anyone would ever permit him to live and expose the scathing truth that he knew.

For me, the saddest part of this entire incident was that he felt that what he did was the only way that he could live with himself.

[uppityperson]

84. Feeling the only way he could live with himself was to murder someone's daughter is really sad. For

me, the saddest part is that daughter he murdered to get back at her father.

[left on green only]

85. Agreed! Revenge is perhaps the most vile and most destructive of all human traits.

I think I remember that the Greeks wrote some very thought provoking plays that dealt with that very subject.

When I think about evolution from my prison of Socrates, I sometimes wonder how many millennia will come to pass before the capacity to take revenge will be universally eliminated from our genetic makeup. Yet I have also come to realize that some of us possess a level of consciousness that is ahead of that time.

The way of the sage is to act but not to compete - I Ching

[geek tragedy]

92. He could have surrendered at any point during the week before he died.

Instead he tried to murder every LEO officer who tried to arrest him.

There is one person who has moral culpability in his death, and that's him, the protestations of the anti-cop bigots notwithstanding.

[a kennedy]

88. If he died of a gunshot to the head, how are they going to study his brain as he requested....

"If possible, I want my brain preserved for science/research to study the effects of severe depression on an individual’s brain. Since 6/26/08 when I was relieved of duty and 1/2/09 when I was terminated I have been afflicted with severe depression." It's just so sad all this happened.

[jberryhill]

93. This is a common effect of depression on the brain