Yes, Dorner was a murderer who killed innocent people,

[MadHound]

Likewise the LAPD has murdered innocent people as well. Not to mention that they have been, and continue to be the perfect example of police department that is corrupt, abusive and out of control.

Neither of these contentions contradicts or negates the other. Did Dorner have legitimate grievances against the LAPD? Given the track record of the department, yeah, he probably did. But going on a murderous rampage is not the way to make that point.

However, just because Dorner did go on a murderous rampage, that doesn't negate the fact that the LAPD needs to be cleaned out, fumigated and reorganized. It is a corrupt department that is trigger happy, brutal and racist.

One can agree with the fact that LAPD is a cesspool without condoning Dorner's actions. One can condemn Dorner's actions but agree, both with his assessment and the assessment of many others, that the LAPD is indeed a cesspool that needs to be drained.

This are not mutually exclusive points of view. Both Dorner and the LAPD have blood on their hands.

[BlueCaliDem]

1. Excellent post and it explains exactly how I feel about this mess, here in SoCal.

Thank you for laying it out and keeping it real, MadHound.

and rec'd.

[Ohio Joe]

2. I pretty much... Never agree with you...

This time I do.

[Squinch]

3. Are we allowed to be as sensible as this on this particular topic?

Because that's very, very sensible. I don't know if that's allowed.

Nice post.

[randome]

4. Dorner has nothing to add to the LAPD conversation.

Since he last worked for them 4 years ago.

And yes, from what people say on DU, the LAPD needs serious reform. But don't do it because of a psycho killer. Do it because it's right.

[MadHound]

11. Sometimes it take an act of extreme violence to shine a light on evil,

John Brown and Harper's Ferry come to mind, there are many other examples throughout history.

That doesn't mean that you have to condone such acts of violence, but that also doesn't mean you have to pass up the opportunity to bring the evil out into the open.

[randome]

14. Dorner thought everyone but him was to blame for his problems.

His allegations of brutality can be dismissed since he made them two weeks after they allegedly occurred and the day after his partner asked for him to be reassigned.

He shines no light on ANYTHING. Not on his high school principal that he claimed was unfair to him. Not to his denigration of lesbians. Not even to police brutality because of what I mentioned above.

He shines no light.

If the LAPD is so bad, why wasn't anyone doing anything about them before now?

[AnotherMcIntosh]

39. Everyone? Is that consistent with his memo (aka "manifesto")

"I later went to a Board of Rights (department hearing for decision of continued employment) from 10/08 to 1/09. During this BOR hearing a video was played for the BOR panel where Christopher Gettler stated that he was indeed kicked by Officer Evans (video sent to multiple news agencies). In addition to Christopher Gettler stating he was kicked, his father Richard Gettler, also stated that his son had stated he was kicked by an officer when he was arrested after being released from custody.
...
"Journalist, I want you to investigate ...
...
"What they failed to mention in the BOR was Teresa Evans own use of force history during her career on the LAPD. She has admitted that she has a lengthy use of force record and has been flagged several times by risk management. She has a very well known nickname, Chupacabra, which she was very proud to flaunt around the division.

She found it very funny and entertaining to draw blood from suspects and arrestees. At one point she even intentionally ripped the flesh off the arm of a woman we had arrested for battery (sprayed her neighbor with a garden water hose). Knowing the woman had thin elastic skin, she performed (an) Indian burn to the woman’s arm after cuffing her. That woman was in her mid-70’s, a mother and grandmother, and was angry at her tenants who failed to pay rent on time. Something I can completely understand and I am sure many have wanted to do toward tenants who do not pay their rent.

Teresa Evans was also demoted from a senior lead officer rank/position for performance issues. During my two months of working patrol with Teresa Evans, I found her as a woman who was very angry that she had been pulled from patrol for a short time because of a domestic violence report made by Long Beach Police Department because of an incident involving her active LAPD officer boyfriend, Dominick Fuentes, and herself. Dominick Fuentes is the same officer investigated for witness tampering. She also was visibly angry on a daily basis that she was going to have to file for bankruptcy because her ex-husband, a former LAPD officer and not Dominick Fuentes, who had left the department, state, and was nowhere to be found had left her with a tax bill and debt that she was unable to pay because of a lack of financial means. Evans, you are a POS and you lied right to the BOR panel when Randy Quan asked you if you kicked Christopher Gettler."

[rustydog]

72. His rants went back to perceived slights against him before LAPD

From the manifesto, he kinda sounded like the unibomber. blaming everything but his failings.

[MADem]

48. One ex-girlfriend put him on Dontdatehimgirl.com!

She said he was erratic and scary and "unravelling" and waved the guns around five years ago.

http://bossip.com/726312/christopher-dorners-ex-girlfriend-speaks-out-hes-paranoid-stay-the-hell-away-from-him-video/

Twisted, and super paranoid! That's not a recommendation, IMO. And she establishes a pattern where he paints himself as the victim, going back to 2nd grade.

This is a 'must watch' video. I think it puts a much needed perspective into what was going on in this guy's head.

[MadHound]

60. Are you truly that ignorant of the history and reputation of the LAPD?

If so, I suggest you go educate yourself.

[snooper2]

17. Like drone attacks on fundie nuts who bomb schools filled with young girls

[LanternWaste]

67. The work of the Abolitionists were both well-known and advertised prior to Harper's Ferry.

The work of the Abolitionists were both well-known and advertised prior to Harper's Ferry.

[Luminous Animal]

20. It prompted to other people to come forward. Both are no longer with the department and

I doubt they would have said a word if it were not for Dorner.

Like it or not, this entire rotten episode WILL give more tools for advocates against police violence and oppression. And, I hope, lead to broad investigations from outside the department.

[Comrade Grumpy]

58. Other than the fact that he's why we're talking about the LAPD right now.

[cui bono]

65. We've been working on it for a long time, way before Dorner popped up.

I marched with many others against police brutality back in 2000 at the DNC, where they again were using excessive force and shooting peaceful protesters with rubber bullets. The march wasn't for that, it was for all their excessive force used in everyday situations.

The abuses of the LAPD are nothing new and have been known and complained about long before Dorner, so you need not worry that he's the reason people think reform is needed. It's long overdue.

[dkf]

5. Now if Dorner had taken time to document all those abuses then he could have done some good.

Problem is he picked his own case to highlight and that one doesn't look provable.

So what will people say when the review of his case comes up clean?

He did a disservice to the cause of cleaning up the department.

[morningfog]

16. Of course he did. He ruined any chance at sympathy or credibility

when he chose violence. That does not absolve the corrupt LAPD, nor does it end the effort to clean up their corruption.

[frylock]

51. you honestly believe that they will reopen the case now?

[Bonobo]

6. I admire police that are willing to tell the truth about police abuses

until they become madmen who kill people, that is.

Dorner is no hero of mine, but that doesn't mean I don't wish more police would break the silence and tell about how fucked up the LAPD is.

As for the red herring of due process that some absolutely deranged people are waving around as if they have found a long-lost treasure map proving the existence of the Lost Ark of the Covenant, it is irrelevant and should be ignored along with said posters.

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

7. Great post. I agree with just about every word. n/t

[JI7]

8. based on his actions he doesn't really have crediblity

it's not a secret how corrupt the LAPD is. not sure why people are trying to make this into some huge conspiracy theory claiming he has something to reveal.

in fact his firing was probably one rare case of doing something right.

[graham4anything]

9. Dorner being a mass murderer is ALL the story is. Bad cops are 100% IRRELEVANT to the story.

Dorner was a cop.
Were it not Dorner they were after,and Dorner was still a cop, Dorner himself would have been one of the cops going after whomever the mass murderer is.

Whether or not some cops are bad is 100% irrelevant to the story this week.
100% NOT relevant.

[MadHound]

12. Well, at minimum, just the consideration that the LAPD fired upon three innocents, multiple times,

Who, by the grace of god, karma, whatever, didn't die at their hands, I would say that alone is enough to make the Dorner incident tied to the LAPD and entirely relevant.

[graham4anything]

18. without Dorner, there would have been no collateral.

So the only tie is Dorner used to be a cop.
Who is to say he wasn't a bad cop when he was a cop from the start.
We only know a small bit of his past.

Joe Schmo could have been the one and the police would have had to go after him too.
And if Dorner were still a cop, Dorner would have been one of the people going after Joe Schmo.

The tie is as irrelevant as saying Dorner ate a bowl of chicken soup, so chicken soup is
responsible.

[theKed]

29. No matter what

the LAPD did in pursuit of Dorner, it was all his fault?
They could've rolled a tank down the streets crushing cars and people alike and...it's not their fault?

Jesus Christ.

[jsr]

33. Meh. Dorner made them do it.

Dorner made them shoot those Latina women, and that white surfer dude (almost).

[graham4anything]

34. correct.

without dorner, none of it happened.

Would you want Oswald still walking the streets even if he would now be 74?

[theKed]

38. You, sir,

are out of your goddamn mind.

I don't care how many people Dorner shot, the LAPD and every other law enforcement agency is required (not suggested) to follow the rules. "Shoot first and ask questions later (maybe)" is absolutely against the rules. And saying it's okay cause they were going after him is no fucking excuse whatsoever.

You should feel immeasurable shame for even suggesting such a thing.

[frylock]

53. some people's opinions are simply not worth a fucking damn..

this sad and sordid event has expanded my ignore list quite significantly.

[cui bono]

66. Ignoring is just a symptom of a closed mind.

This is a political forum. The ignore list should be abolished, I mean how can you possibly have a debate without listening to opposing views?

[frylock]

68. i went back and forth with some yahoo on this dorner cookout..

posting the same exact shit, reply after reply. life is too damn short to deal with that kind of nonsense. he's been stalking me ever since. so I don't think i'll take your advice, or insult, to heart. thx.

[graham4anything]

61. response 53 recommended

[theKed]

64. Psychological evaluation recommended

[Bluenorthwest]

69. LA Times does not agree with you...

"It's understandable that police would be enraged by Dorner. He openly declared war on all law enforcement officers and embarked on a killing spree specifically aimed at his former colleagues. But how does that justify the actions of the officers who shot into a truck driven by two newspaper carriers, Maggie Carranza and Emma Hernandez? Carranza is a 47-year-old Latina who was driving a blue Toyota with Hernandez, her 71-year-old mother; officers somehow mistook those two women for a burly African American man driving a gray Nissan. And, in their zeal or under the impression that any force would be tolerated in these circumstances, officers fired away, hitting Hernandez twice in the back. Both women lived, testament to the poor aim, not the good judgment, of the officers.

To be clear: Their actions would be worrisome even if Dorner had been behind the wheel of that truck. Force, including lethal force, is a necessary part of police work, but it may be used only to protect officers or others from harm. It is to be wielded to ensure safety, not to exact vengeance. While it is especially offensive to have that force used against innocent people, it's even improper to use it in this fashion against the guilty."
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/editorials/la-ed-dorner-lapd-20130214,0,3334374.story

[MadHound]

54. Wait, what?!

So you're saying that the cops who opened fire aren't responsible for their actions?

Any cop, including the ones in my family, will tell you that the prime rule in such situations is to insure the safety of civilians. Those cops opened fire without even to make an identification, they failed to exercise basic control over their own emotions and fears. That is not the sign of a good cop, that is the sign of a cop who is going to kill the wrong person. It is only by sheer luck or bad aim that two women and one white man weren't killed.

This isn't a matter of relevancy, it is a matter of well trained police who performing a very hard, responsible and necessary job poorly. You don't open fire without a clear identification, even if you get shot at first.

Murders and manhunts and exchanges of gunfire are going to happen. It is the responsibility of the police force to be trained and disciplined enough not to open fire without clear ID.

[graham4anything]

62. without Dorner, there was no collateral damage

any side issue is completely separate.

Zimmerman killed Mr. Martin

Were a librarian to walk into the street and shoot Zimmy afterward, because Zimmy had an overdue book, would have nothing to do with the fact that Zimmy killed Mr. Martin in cold blood.

It would be a second event warrant looking into, a side issue
(note librarians are on my mind from a different thread, so using one as an example).

The corrolation of A B C D is wrong to apply that ABCD are equals.

A=B
if B led to C and D occured, that was an event directly tied to A
then BCD are indeed part of A. but occurred BECAUSE of A.

without A
BCD wouldn't have happened

simple math and raw statistics.

As cops don't routinely open fire randomly, BCD would NOT have happened without A.

That some or a handful might have had events in their past that are not legit, so to say,
that has nothing to do with this story, and to imply that every single cop in the history of Los Angeles is bad is randomly statistically totally wrong.
Because even if 99% were, the 1% are being smeared and their good names ruined.

Here, Dorner is the 1%(he is indeed a BAD COP) because he went and took the law into his own hands and a cop, working or retired or fired, knows the rules.
DORNER IS 100% GUILTY of any collateral damage just by statistical analysis alone.
Because
Dorner is A and B and C and D occurred because of Dorner.

NEVER FORGET- DORNER IS A COP. KNOWS THE RULES.
SO DORNER IS A BAD COP.
DORNER IS THE WHOLE STORY. BEGINNING MIDDLE END OF STORY.

(caps on purpose because this story annoys me and I am mad as Hell at Dorner, and no,
not going to take it anymore so I am opening my window and screaming it.
DORNER IS GUILTY. DORNER IS A COP. DORNER IS A BAD COP.

[MadHound]

63. Know any cops? Got any cops in the family?

If you do, when you stop your foolish all-caps screaming screed, go talk to them. Go ask them if those cops had a responsibility to get a clear identification before opening fire. Go try and tell them that those cops aren't responsible for the injuries they caused because Dorner was running around loose. Ask them if they would want any of those trigger happy cops on their six.

Then watch them laugh at you, long and hard.

[Cali_Democrat]

22. "Dorner being a mass murderer is ALL the story is"

Really?

What about the women delivering newspapers who were shot up by the cops? The police fired over 40+ bullets at them because they THOUGHT it was Dorner.

Were those women mass murderers?

[DrewFlorida]

10. My thoughts exactly!

[geek tragedy]

13. I disagree with

absolutely nothing in this post. You speak for me.

[Sheldon Cooper]

15. I posted this earlier in another thread:

Any sympathy for Dorner's plight evaporated the minute he pulled the trigger and killed the police officer's daughter to start his rampage. He may have had some legitimate beefs with the LAPD, but he couldn't have picked a worse way to get them aired. And I don't much care if they burned him out or whatever, he was determined not to be taken alive anyway so big deal as far as I'm concerned. I will not be organizing a candlelight vigil for Dorner.

However, having said that, I understand that at least two other former LAPD officers have come forward with additional claims as to the rampant bigotry, brutality, and other dysfunctions with that department. Maybe now their stories will get a fair hearing and possibly even get some changes as a result. There's really nothing 'good' about what Dorner did, but msybe his actions will be a catalyst for change.

[DevonRex]

19. I am much less likely to pay attention to anyone who holds Dorner up as some kind of hero. So at

least you didn't do that. I'm of the opinion that all police departments need regular change, real shake-ups, to keep them on the up and up. It has to be from the top down, with new people being brought in from other areas, other states if possible, to stop cronyism and to prevent the promotion of the most political and most dirty cops.

That includes a change of the guard in Internal Affairs personnel. Often that's overlooked. But it can be the most crucial point of bribery. If the same people investigate then the same people can be bought, over and over. And nobody investigates them.

[Canuckistanian]

21. Thank you

Very well put.

The finger pointing when someone takes EITHER of these sides is maddening. BOTH points are relevant and a key to understanding the WHOLE messy picture.

[Little Star]

47. Bingo.

[Canuckistanian]

59. Glad you agree

[iandhr]

23. And Dorner's actions will set back the effects to clean up the department.

[DeSwiss]

28. Only we can do that. n/t

[Fire Walk With Me]

30. But SoCal PD response to him has turned all eyes upon them. Then they told media to

shut down all feeds, even tweeting, so they could hide setting the cabin on fire with seven fire-spewing smoke grenades, leaving people to conclude Dorner had done it to himself.

He brought attention to corruption. They executed him with fire and tried to cover it up. Everyone knows this, or should.

(Oakland PD and NYPD did the same thing immediate before attacking their Occupy Wall Street marchers. Cut the feed, eliminate journalists. Oakland LIED brazenly about Occupiers creating the explosions which were subsequently heard, and said PD had to protect themselves. Veteran Scott Olsen very nearly died in the initial police barrage, and a cop threw a flash-bang into the group who gathered around his prostrate, motionless body. Never believe mayors and PD. This is the same tactic and journalists are merely LAPDogs if they comply.)

Info on Oakland "authorities" lies and tactics:

http://occupyobservations.blogspot.com/2012/01/oakland-officials-caught-in-lies-about.html

[SCVDem]

24. The LAPD is not a person.

The LAPD didn't shoot the women.

Some officers of the LAPD shot the women.

Thousands of officers did NOT shoot the women.

[Bjorn Against]

49. No the LAPD is not a person it is an institution

Every institution the size of the LAPD is going to have some bad apples, the problem is however the bad apples are not being held accountable. If the bad apples were facing serious consequences for their actions then you could dismiss this as a problem with individuals, but as long as the institution allows the bad apples to continue to be bad apples then it means the entire institution is troubled.

[SCVDem]

57. I want to see the results of the shooting board

That could be interesting, or else!

[WillyT]

25. HUGE K & R !!!

[Light House]

26. Great, great post.

.

[DeSwiss]

27. K&R

[Honeycombe8]

31. All we know so far about the reason Dorner was fired...

was that he filed a complaint against a trainer for abusing him, an investigation was conducted, and he was found to have lied on the complaint.

You are assuming the investigation findings were wrong, but we don't know that.

Now that we know a bit of Dorner's personality, is it really far fetched that he did lie about the complaint? We know even that Dorner didn't like women being in authority over him. For no particular reason, other than they're women, it seems. Someone who cries racism turns around and is found to be sexist? Something doesn't fit.

Even if the LAPD has a lot of bad people in it, it could still be the case that Dorner was one of them, and he lied about a complaint.

The LAPD is not a person. Every organization has good people and bad people in it. So it's not right to say the "LAPD" has blood on its hands, since you're lumping some good people in with that.

It's just possible that something has been wrong with Dorner for a long time, and the LAPD caught it and got rid of him.

[MadHound]

55. Oh I have no doubt that Dormer had something "wrong" with him,

And the fact that LAPD hired him is a sad indictment of their hiring, vetting and training process. Yes, they did get around to firing him, but just look at the ones they didn't fire, that they retained. The pages of the LA newspapers going back to the late Thirties are filled with examples of the abusive, racist, hyper-violent LA cops that they didn't get around to firing. They all had something "wrong" with them, but they were retained and set loose on the streets of the city, much to the detriment of the citizenry. That is what is truly a sad indictment, the cops they kept.

[SCVDem]

35. That's putting a lot of credence in the words of a terrorist.

He was mentally deranged yet everyone believes him.

Maybe if he looked like Willie Horton people would feel differently.

[geek tragedy]

36. First post on DU to claim Dorner was killed to keep him silent.

Paging MIRT.

[uppityperson]

40. He murdered a police officer's daughter to "break the gang's rule of silence"?

[geek tragedy]

42. That poster is no longer with us, nt

[arely staircase]

37. right on all points, eom

[Bjorn Against]

41. Well said, I totally agree

This is not a black and white case, there are lots of shades of grey and there is more than one villain.

[bvar22]

43. DURec, but not many here...

...are capable of nuance, gray area thinking, or multitasking.

[Fumesucker]

45. Unfortunately it's not just here that few are capable of nuance, gray area thinking or multitasking

That seems to be the general state of the American public.

[baldguy]

44. These are entirely separate issues.

No police department in the country would have reacted to a similar threat to public safety any differently - nor should they.

[Fumesucker]

46. No other police department in the country would have refrained from shooting the wrong vehicles?

Don't set a very high standard for the police, eh?

[MadHound]

56. Differently how?

Look, you, I and the fly on the wall all know that Dorner didn't have a chance of walking out of this alive. The man killed cops and family of cops, that is a death sentence for virtually everybody. It shouldn't be that way, it would be lovely if the cops could contain and discipline themselves to bring a copkiller in alive, but it rarely happens.

But it would be nice if the LA police had enough training and discipline to hold their fire until they make a clear identification.

Furthermore, even a murderer can speak the truth, and it isn't like the LAPD doesn't have a history of massive abuse and death, one that stretches back decades. This shines a spotlight on that very fact.

Meanwhile, what does it say about a police department that hires somebody like Dormer? Nothing good.

[frylock]

50. evidently these very salient points escape many..

excellent post.

[DonCoquixote]

52. More than that

Dorner was a product of the LAPD, who knows how many more Dorner's are on the damned payroll?

[Bluenorthwest]

70. Very well stated. Similar, in fact, to the LA Times editorial on the same subject.

"The more important inquiry, however, ought to be the department's analysis of the shocking and wrongful assault on the truck carrying Carranza and Hernandez. Overzealousness may be understandable in the terrifying circumstances that confronted Southern California over the last week, but police work depends on restraint and care, both of which were lacking."

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/editorials/la-ed-dorner-lapd-20130214,0,3334374.story

[X_Digger]

71. Nonono, black *or* white, don'cha know!?! ;) k&r n/t