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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsAtheist teen kicks some ass in the name of the separation of church and state
Atheist teen forces school to remove prayer from wall after 49 yearsState Representative calls girl, who has been escorted by police to school, 'an evil little thing'
By Abby Goodnough
The New York Times
CRANSTON, R.I. She is 16, the daughter of a firefighter and a nurse, a self-proclaimed nerd who loves Harry Potter and Facebook. But Jessica Ahlquist is also an outspoken atheist who has incensed this heavily Roman Catholic city with a successful lawsuit to get a prayer removed from the wall of her high school auditorium, where it has hung for 49 years.
A federal judge ruled this month that the prayers presence at Cranston High School West was unconstitutional, concluding that it violated the principle of government neutrality in religion.
In the weeks since, residents have crowded school board meetings to demand an appeal, Jessica has received online threats and the police have escorted her at school, and Cranston, a dense city of 80,000 just south of Providence, has throbbed with raw emotion.
State Representative Peter G. Palumbo, a Democrat from Cranston, called Jessica an evil little thing on a popular talk radio show. Three separate florists refused to deliver her roses sent from a national atheist group. The group, the Freedom From Religion Foundation, has filed a complaint with the Rhode Island Commission for Human Rights.
The rest: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46160046/ns/us_news-the_new_york_times/
snooper2
(30,151 posts)Makes ya want to kind of....well...
bigtree
(85,917 posts)wishing her the best . . .
FlaGatorJD
(364 posts)It's quite disturbing, and this young lady has a lot of guts to do this.
America the land of the free, and if we want your opinion about religion, we'll give it to you.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)and I support and salute her.
Nothing brings out the true character of so many "Xtians" as quickly as challenging their fairy tales. Stand tall, Jessica, you are in the right. Jefferson and Franklin would be proud of you.
NoGOPZone
(2,971 posts)So these people won't object to eliminating the words 'prayer', 'amen' and 'Heavenly Father', correct?
Mariana
(14,849 posts)for their own kids to look at, if it's so fucking important to them. I wonder how many of them have done that? My guess is zero.
HopeHoops
(47,675 posts)Kurmudgeon
(1,751 posts)Quantess
(27,630 posts)For the record I do believe we absolutely have freedom from religion.
HopeHoops
(47,675 posts)The Wizard
(12,482 posts)is tax exempt, separation is as much a myth as talking snakes and living in a whale's stomach.
Kurmudgeon
(1,751 posts)Then you can live with your myth that man is the highest creature in reality.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Stop it Smalls, you're killing me!
Gore1FL
(21,030 posts)Kurmudgeon
(1,751 posts)And legal precedence can change. What comes around does go around.
What will everyone here who are so happy do on that day when someone decides they want freedom from you?
I'm sure several of you can band together on message boards to force your opinion, however, that doesn't work everywhere.
Enjoy your atheist/paganist theocracy you're creating, you enforce your intolerance so religiously.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)STOP PERSECUTING ME BY NOT ALLOWING ME TO PROSELYTIZE TO YOUR CHILDREN IN A PUBLIC SCHOOL!!!!
Kurmudgeon
(1,751 posts)Yet another bully sucker punches then plays victim.
Now go type in caps some more, it makes your deranged prejudicial hostility all that more obvious.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)But its coming from no one but you.
Kurmudgeon
(1,751 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)And its not name calling, its an observation.
Man, how can you be so obtuse?
How can what you posted...
Yet another bully sucker punches then plays victim.
Now go type in caps some more, it makes your deranged prejudicial hostility all that more obvious.
NOT be name calling,
and at the same time, what I posted...
But its coming from no one but you.
be name calling, according to you.
Oh, I see, you want to have it both ways, as usual.
Hypocrite. QED.
Quantess
(27,630 posts)The atheist equivalent of that "heavenly father" sign at school (one that we will never see because it would violate the separation of church & state) would say something like, "all you have is your mortal life on earth, no god, no jesus, so make the best of it before you die because that's all there is".
When a school puts up a sign like that, you can say that's an "atheist theocracy" the school is promoting. But not until then.
Kurmudgeon
(1,751 posts)Because none of the above quickly becomes none for all.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)scary stuff.
Kurmudgeon
(1,751 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Par for the course.
Gore1FL
(21,030 posts)When did I ever imply that I did?
I don't care if you want to participate in a religion that I find offensive or not. Just don't make me participate in it.
Kurmudgeon
(1,751 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)that is what this case is about. A christian prayer on the wall of a public school.
Gore1FL
(21,030 posts)You can't have sponsored religion in a public school, however. That is against the law.
http://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/religionandschools/prayer_guidance.html
Although the Constitution forbids public school officials from directing or favoring prayer, students do not "shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate," [ 9 ] and the Supreme Court has made clear that "private religious speech, far from being a First Amendment orphan, is as fully protected under the Free Speech Clause as secular private expression." [ 10 ] Moreover, not all religious speech that takes place in the public schools or at school-sponsored events is governmental speech. [ 11 ] For example, "nothing in the Constitution ... prohibits any public school student from voluntarily praying at any time before, during, or after the school day," [ 12 ] and students may pray with fellow students during the school day on the same terms and conditions that they may engage in other conversation or speech. Likewise, local school authorities possess substantial discretion to impose rules of order and pedagogical restrictions on student activities, [ 13 ] but they may not structure or administer such rules to discriminate against student prayer or religious speech.
That's the policy.
A Prayer plastered on a school wall violates that policy.
PVnRT
(13,178 posts)Oh, you poor fucking Christians, you're not allowed to shove your fucking religion in everyone's face, so now you're being oppressed by the big, mean atheists. Go cry me a fucking river.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Kurmudgeon
(1,751 posts)PassingFair
(22,434 posts)10. "I am convinced that if we do not decisively win the struggle over the nature of America, by the time they're my age, they will be in a secular atheist country, potentially one dominated by radical Islamists." (2011)"
-Newt Gingrich
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)There is a solid body of legal precedence from the Supreme Court saying that the words of the Bill of Rights mean exactly that, with regards to school and state sponsored prayer. TYVM.
Kurmudgeon
(1,751 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Is there a church shortage in this country I'm not aware of? Am I demanding that banners about "our heavenly father" be taken out of them?
No. It is a PUBLIC FUCKING SCHOOL, and you are NOT allowed to indoctrinate OTHER people's children with YOUR religious belief in a PUBLIC SCHOOL. Ever. Period.
I'm sure jesus weeps over the unfair persecution of it all.
Kurmudgeon
(1,751 posts)It's an old plaque on a wall that someone thin skinned got upset about, same as you.
So now you attempt to remove all mention of religion, because it suits your prejudice.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Uhm, denial is not just a river in Egypt.
So there is your "state sponsored in the article". Either you are being willfully ignorant of the facts, or are pushing an agenda. Or both.
Either way, your posts have become irrelevant and ridiculous.
hack89
(39,171 posts)it was not a plaque - it was labeled "School Prayer". It was a prayer.
JFN1
(2,033 posts)Or a Wiccan blessing? Or a verse from the Koran?
Or does it have to be Christian?
Love to break it to you - this is NOT a "Christian country," despite what politicians and televangelists claim.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)when it is HIS religion that has infringed on someone elses freedom and is being reeled back in.
Its pure hypocrisy.
Kurmudgeon
(1,751 posts)I defend what I like and what I believe.
You apparently believe if someone believes different than you, it's an infringement on YOU.
So they should be censored and silenced according to you.
Take a look in the mirror, oh hypocritical hippie.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)No one is buying it, keep trying.
Kurmudgeon
(1,751 posts)I do find your "No one" comment telling, it shows you think you can speak for everyone.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)No one is buying it.
Kurmudgeon
(1,751 posts)So you can't legislate or force Christians into hiding, this isn't the Roman empire.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Until then, you can keep your unfounded, pathological, persecution complex driven ideas to yourself.
ProfessorGAC
(64,420 posts)The Constitution prohibits the government from endorsing, establishing, or advocating for a specific religion or faith. It doesn't stop a private citizen from having an opinion about it. Why? Because that would be a prohibition of the very same ammendment you worry so much about.
There is a forrest near those trees you're focused on.
GAC
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Had it been a prayer from any other religion, you would be in full agreement with its removal.
Does hypocrisy make jesus proud?
Kurmudgeon
(1,751 posts)Anything I use to defend Christianity here can be applied to any other belief.
You're the one wanting to silence people, not me.
Now call more names, Mr. Hippie.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Everything you say is a total fabrication or misrepresentation of the facts.
Now demonstrate some more ignorance on the subject, mr. krumudgeon.
surrealAmerican
(11,340 posts)That's 49 years of students who were afraid to challenge this. That's one brave kid. I'm proud to live in the same country with someone that brave.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)something!" This comes up every year during graduation season especially.
It's always been assumed that atheists and non-Christians will just sit quietly and endure.
immoderate
(20,885 posts)Take 'em down!
--imm
Quantess
(27,630 posts)but they should know religion doesn't belong in a public school! Really. Shame on them for acting like they have the right to do that.
Mariana
(14,849 posts)And they don't care. They want it there anyway.
Kurmudgeon
(1,751 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)is just us mean old atheists "branding" it religion.
There really is no need to keep trying to convince yourself with these outlandish posts.
Bolo Boffin
(23,796 posts)Defending the atheist, not the prayer on the wall.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)collectively believing they know the absolute *truth*, and then trying to force their *truth* upon others, has proven to be deadly many times throughout history and right up to the present day. Religious groups used their wealth to force the government to take away the rights of citizens to marry the person of their choice in California with Propostion 8. Imagine what these religions would do to *non-believers* if they were not constrained by separation of church and state.
"We all wanna be problem-less. To fix ourselves. We look for some magic solution to make us all better, but none of us really know what we're doing. And why is that so bad? That's all we humans can do. Guess. Try. Hope. But, Justin, just pray you don't fool yourself into thinking you've got the answer. Because that's bullshit. The trick is living without an answer.
I think."
(Keanu Reeves, as Perry Lyman, in the film Thumbsucker)
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)hfojvt
(37,573 posts)I will pray for her.
callous taoboy
(4,582 posts)Zorra
(27,670 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)because, really, it's all about the delicate, easily hurt feelings of your invisible sky-man, and the fact that several million acres of tax-exempt church property in this country on which to post proclamations of biblical yammering isn't enough.
callous taoboy
(4,582 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)hfojvt
(37,573 posts)"Knowledge does not comprise all which is contained in the large term of education, the feelings are to be disciplined; the passions are to be restrained; true and worthy motives are to be inspired; a profound religious feeling is to be instilled; and pure morality inculcated under all circumstances. All this is comprised in education." Daniel Webster
"The task of education would be, first and foremost, the transmission of ideas of value, of what to do with our lives. There is no doubt also the need to transmit know-how but this must take second place, for it is obviously somewhat foolhardy to put great powers into the hands of people without making sure they have a reasonable idea of what to do with them. At present, there can be little doubt that the whole of mankind is in mortal danger, not because we are short of scientific and technological know-how, but because we tend to use it destructively, without wisdom. More education can help us only if it produces more wisdom." EF Schumacher "Small is Beautiful" p 82
"You cannot put enough in the brain of a man to overcome the harm you do him if you take faith out of his heart." William Jennings Bryan
"There are seven thousand college men in our prisons; how much good has education done them? The country spent its money to educate them, but their hearts went wrong, and their hearts took their brains with them." op. cit.
"Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it" Proverbs 22: 6
"Fundamentally, there is no right education except growing up into a worthwhile world. indeed, our excessive concern with problems of education at present simply mean that the grown-ups do not have such a world." Paul Goodman "Compulsory Mis-education" 1962 p. 58
Clearly, some defenders of the prayer do not know their own faith well enough, and think it is a good and proper thing to hate evil. This is a belief. however, also shared by those of a more liberal persuasion, one of the things our society teaches http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=228358
Clearer?
I highly doubt it.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Try Engel v. Vitale. Or Abington School District v. Schempp.
I'll see your William J. Bryan and raise you 2 Clarence Darrows:
"In spite of all the yearnings of men, no one can produce a single fact or reason to support the belief in God and in personal immortality."
"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
And so on.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)except how some of the parents feel about prayer and education. It is not, as you said, about the feelings of the sky daddy, to them, it is about proper education.
They will also see Engel v. Vitale, or the one it sprang from, especially, Everson v. Board of Education as the Supreme Court illegitimately re-writing the constitution.
As I have said before, I do think they have a point.
We disagree on whether the Court should get to write laws or not, so there is no need to re-open that can of worms.
Darrow is certainly free to believe what he wants to believe, as are you. That just does not happen to be what a large majority of this Rhode Island city believe.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Period. End of fucking story. Just because something is 'important' to some parents doesn't make it constitutional. Just because a 'majority' of parents in a given district want something, doesn't make it constitutional.
STATE SPONSORED PRAYERS IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE A CLEAR VIOLATION OF THE ESTABLISHMENT CLAUSE. THERE IS NO GOD-DAMN DEBATE ON THAT POINT.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)Why wasn't it the case in 1789. If anybody knew what the establishment clause meant and didn't mean it should have been those people living in 1789. And yet there they were, praying and using the Bible in their schools. They did not seem to think that was a clear violation of the establishment clause. If they had, they'd have probably thrown out the establishment clause and kept the Bible.
You know, for a person who is supposed to believe in empiricism, you sure do a lot of "argument by authority."
X is true. Period. There is no God-damn debate on that point.
Well eau contraire mon fraire, there is plenty of debate on that point. Some people, apparently, don't believe in the infallibility of the SCOTUS, nor that the SCOTUS can legitimately trump the will of the people. You see, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.
And now I have stayed up too late. I have a town hall meeting to attend tomorrow in Oskie. Okay, technically it is today ...
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Look, I realize you're mad that state sponsored prayer in public schools is unconstitutional, but it is.
Now, please stop derailing a thread about a brave teenager who is being threatened with violence for her patriotic, pro-U.S. Constititution stance, with your wistful theocratic musings and your frankly kooky legal theories.
October
(3,363 posts)Excellent responses.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)Then why am I not resorting to fucking expletives and name calling about your frankly kooky historical understanding?
As for derailing, well it would be nice if somebody would derail one of MY threads by kicking it twenty times to the top of the page.
Sorry, it just needed to be pointed out. I was calmly discussing law and history, while you seem to be angrily discussing me.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)You seem to be existing in some fantasy reality where 50 years of solid Supreme Court legal precedence is meaningless, and you float the worst sort of majoritarian arguments for state sponsored school prayer that have been roundly rejected by every Supreme Court since Earl Warren or even prior.
Am I mad? Fuck yes. Because you're advocating that the State be permitted to indoctrinate MY children in YOUR religious belief, against our will. Fuck yes that pisses me off.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)or home school your children.
That's the same option you are offering to parents who don't like the education you advocate.
As far as "solid Supreme Court legal precedence" well, we on the left do not seem to accept that when we don't like the results as in the "personhood of corporations.
Those who disagree with the precedence go back to where it began. Was the 5-4 decision in Everson correct? They don't think it was, and I think they have a point. Before Everson, the Bible and prayer were Constitutional for 159 years and SCOTUS over-turned that precedence without basing that reversal on a change in the Constitution, other than a change that was made 79 years earlier. A change that was made without the intention to do what SCOTUS claimed it did.
That future courts continue to build on that precedence is kinda irrelevant if that precedence itself is faulty, as I believe it to be.
At least I am not seeing a logical argument that shows it was not faulty.
As for "majoritarian arguments" I call that democracy, one of the primary principles of our government. Of course, that is not, nor should it be, absolute. For example, a majority cannot vote to stone me to death just because that majority thinks I make annoying arguments on the internets, (at least I think they cannot, but I forgot about article 7224 Section C, er, ah, ... hide) but in general I think majority rule is better than minority rule, no matter how much the minority might not like it.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)The logical argument is that it is a government endorsing of religion to have public schools indoctrinating public school students in religion. And that is in violation of the Establishment Clause. I'm not sure how much more "logic" you need.
Again, School Prayer wasn't "overturned" as it was found to be unconstitutional- similarly, in fact, nearly identically, to the way that school segregation- "constitutional" up until that point, were found to be unconstitutional in Brown v. Board of Education.
Subsequent SCOTUS decisions didn't just build on the precedence, they also reaffirmed it- which means, given the chance to reverse it, they did not.
This is why, for instance, the Casey decision in '92 strengthened Roe v. Wade, even though it modified it. Because when a new court, given the opportunity to do away with a decision, instead agrees with it, that reinforces the underlying logic of the constitutional reasoning and makes it increasingly unlikely that a further court will overturn both decisions.
One major POINT of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights is to protect the rights of minorities against majorities. If the founders had wanted our government to be a simple "majority rules, always, in every case" situation, they would have done so. Sort of like how if they had wanted Government to be in the religion business, they would have put the word "God" in the Constitution, which they did not.
Also, if you're so damn convinced that a majority of Americans want nothing more than Public Schools to preach Jesus to kids again, push for a Constitutional Amendment. That tack is far more likely to work than waiting for a Supreme Court to invalidate the solid reasoning behind the multiple anti-school prayer decisions, although also pretty fucking unlikely to get off the ground.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)hfojvt
(37,573 posts)What about 1790? What about 1890? The Establishment clause was approved in 1788. Clearly, most people at that time did not think that clause prevented the Bible and prayer in schools, because most schools kept right on using the Bible and prayer, in the apparent theocracy of the United States of America.
As far as "God" in the Constitution, He is there, in the Constitutions of ALL FIFTY STATES. For example
"We, the people of Kansas, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious privileges, in order to insure the full enjoyment of our rights as American citizens, do ordain and establish this constitution of the state of Kansas, with the following boundaries ..."
"We, the people of Wisconsin, grateful to Almighty God for
our freedom, in order to secure its blessings, form a more perfect
government, insure domestic tranquility and promote the general
welfare, do establish this constitution."
"We, the People of the State of California, grateful to Almighty God for our
freedom, in order to secure and perpetuate its blessings, do establish this
Constitution."
Those statements would also clearly seem to be a violation of the Establishment clause, but the people representing the people of those territories included it right at the start.
The Bible and prayer in schools was NOT unconstitutional from the start. That much is simple historical fact. Those who wrote and ratified the first Amendment did not understand it to prohibit the use of the Bible and prayer in public schools. So the court, in 1947 when it found school prayer to be unconstitutional should not have pointed to the first amendment, they should have pointed to SOME change, ratified by We the People, which changed school prayer from being constitutional, which it was from the founding of our country, to being unconstitutional. Pointing to the 14th is also bullsh*t, because when that passed in 1868 it was not with the understanding that it would take the Bible and prayer out of schools.
Well, the burden of passing an Amendment should fall on people who want to change the Constitution, not on those who want to stop the SCOTUS from changing it on their own, because that is not their job. But, much like the President, they want to expand their own powers as much as possible, and with lifetime appointments, they are safe from the will of the people.
According to gallup, a large majority 81-75% (over the years) actually DO favor a Constitutional amendment to allow prayer in the schools. However, for some reason, our Congress is not in any hurry to follow the will of the people. Perhaps the corporate world does not want to lose a divisive issue that keeps poor people voting Republican. Perhaps people would change their minds when the rubber hit the road. Perhaps the reality is that the media would generally go all in AGAINST such an amendment and they count more than the will of the people, which they are able to manufacture whenever they want.
But none of those considerations have anything to do with the history and the logic.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)The UNITED STATES Constitution is a wholly secular document, and that's a deliberate move. The people who thought that somehow the states held more power than the Federal Government and could tell it to "fuck off", well, they were proven wrong, weren't they? Just like the supporters of segregation, and just like the supporters of school prayer.
Your tantrums notwithstanding, mandatory school prayer is gone, and it's not coming back.
October
(3,363 posts)Wow.
In my country, every state gets 2 senators no matter the size. That way, it's not about majority ruling.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)hfojvt
(37,573 posts)I don't hate Islam.
So yes, in any school district where the vast majority of the students are muslims, they should be free to use the Koran in their schools. At least the US constitution should not prevent it. The people of the state may be another matter though.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Casandia
(612 posts)You rock, sir!
fascisthunter
(29,381 posts)this is about seperation of church and state... you have a church in every town, and you have your own homes to do as you wish. Shove religion down your own throat, not everyone else's with OUR tax dollars.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)But also the tax dollars of those who follow Jesus.
Wouldn't it be just as fair to have the situation be reversed? In fact, more fair? A large majority, perhaps 70% want their children to learn religion in schools, schools that they are forced to pay taxes to support. Those who can afford it, do, of course, have the option of sending their kids to a religious private school. Thus paying for a public school, that they do not use, and also paying tuition for a private school.
Why not reverse that? Let the majority of tax payers have the kind of schools they want, and let those atheist and agnostic parents send their kids to a private atheist school if they so choose.
After all, isn't it more democratic to let the majority decide what we will do with OUR tax money?
As for the separation of church and state. Yes, what about that? How much do you know about history?
The Constitution was ratified in 1788. Prior to that date, and for over 100 years after that date, children went to schools that were 'religious in character and content.' "From the time public education began to spread in the 1820 and 1830s until after WWII, most public elementary and secondary schools in America included daily Bible reading and prayer." - Oxford Companion to SCOTUS
So for 159 years it was clearly constitutional to have prayer in schools. That is the historical fact. Then SCOTUS voted by 5-4 in Everson v. Board in 1947 to say that it was not. Well, how can something suddenly go from being constitutional for 159 years and then suddenly not be constitutional? I say that should only happen if WE THE PEOPLE decide to change the Constitution through the amending process. In Everson, SCOTUS claimed that we did, by passing the 14th Amendment, which was passed in 1868. However, that was 79 years before Everson. Clearly, taking the Bible and prayer out of schools was not an INTENDED consequence of the 14th Amendment. So the court, at least a slight majority of it, played a game of "gotcha" with the law. That WE THE PEOPLE passed something to do A, B, and C and SCOTUS said "gotcha" that also does X, Y, and Z.
Granted, at this date, most people are ignorant about this history (I certainly was, until I researched it for these online debates) and the way things are now seems the way things ought to be to most people, but there is a large group of people who still want to roll the clock back and undo those steps - and they have sorta been winning elections too.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,272 posts)Go pray in your church. There are plenty to choose from.
Get over it.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)13th Amendment. A law passed by the representatives of We the people. Not decided 5-4 by We the SCOTUS.
How about you go practice your atheism in a bar? There are plenty to choose from.
Is that really relevant?
Get over it is not much of an argument, is it?
So we invaded Iraq - get over it.
So we tortured - get over it.
So we got rid of habeus corpus - get over it.
Viking12
(6,012 posts)Incorporation of the states? Whitney vs. California?
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Any Jesus-following parent who wants their kids to be led in prayer has a wide range of options, from taking them to a tax-exempt church on Sunday, to home schooling them, to taking them to an (also probably tax-exempt) private religious institution for religious-based instruction.
We do NOT have a tyranny of the majority whereby the majority gets to demand that they pick the religious instruction to foist upon all the children in a given district. I don't know why that concept is so fucking difficult to grasp for you.
fascisthunter
(29,381 posts)the way you wish it did. Not only are you biased, you are extremely biased. Learn to live with the rest of us and believe what you want on your own private dime and time.
Sometimes the problem with believing in a god, is you think it is on your side, therefore your intentions are always right.... crazy folks believe the same shit, they just don't use "god" as their excuse all the time.
Gore1FL
(21,030 posts)pokerfan
(27,677 posts)The state to validate your particular superstition as the one and only truth? You're living in the wrong country, pal.
"I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute-where no Catholic prelate would tell the president (should he be Catholic) how to act, and no Protestant minister would tell his parishoners for whom to vote--where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference--and where no man is denied public office merely because his religion differs from the president who might appoint him or the people who might elect him." (John F. Kennedy)
We want to stand upon our own feet and look fair and square at the world -- its good facts, its bad facts, its beauties, and its ugliness; see the world as it is and be not afraid of it. Conquer the world by intelligence and not merely by being slavishly subdued by the terror that comes from it. The whole conception of God is a conception derived from the ancient Oriental despotisms. It is a conception quite unworthy of free men. When you hear people in church debasing themselves and saying that they are miserable sinners, and all the rest of it, it seems contemptible and not worthy of self-respecting human beings. We ought to stand up and look the world frankly in the face. We ought to make the best we can of the world, and if it is not so good as we wish, after all it will still be better than what these others have made of it in all these ages. A good world needs knowledge, kindliness, and courage; it does not need a regretful hankering after the past or a fettering of the free intelligence by the words uttered long ago by ignorant men. It needs a fearless outlook and a free intelligence. It needs hope for the future, not looking back all the time toward a past that is dead, which we trust will be far surpassed by the future that our intelligence can create. (Bertrand Russell)
Understand? Probably not.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)Did you even read my post?
It's not about the state validating or invalidating anything.
It is about what some, or many, parents want their children to be taught. See, they agree with Webster, Schumacher and Bryan. They mostly disagree with Russell, although they probably are not against "goodness", "knowledge", "kindliness" or "courage". If I had the time though, I could look up what Ruskin said about "free intelligence". Something about how, intelligence accomplishes things not because it is free, but because it is disciplined. I would note the example of children. Children seem to have lots of energy. Many people are amazed by their energy. They bounce all over the place and run here and run there. However, if you asked a kid to do what I do in an average hour at most of my adult jobs, most of them would quit halfway through the hour complaining of fatigue. They seem to have energy because they have more energy than they have discipline because they have very little discipline. The kind of discipline that would set themselves, like most adults do, to completing tasks.
Also, wisdom and compassion, are not so much about superstition, although they are not scientific questions or answers.
Also, I said nothing about "the only truth" although it would seem that some of the replies want to attack "my way/our way". I get a sense of deja vu ... http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/57
lindysalsagal
(20,440 posts)prayers and post them on the walls of the school, and compel your kids to recite them, too.
Or, maybe I'm muslim, and we're now going to recite and post prayers to Allah.
Or, maybe I'm jewish, and so we're going to recite torah.
No matter what, there are children who now feel they don't really belong at school.
That's the point: Our constitution grants the right to all children to belong to their neighborhood school.
The majority doesn't get to impost itself on the minority, which is good for you, because people who believe as you do are the minority.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Seems to be a common thread amongst many christians in this country. They LOVE them some religion in public places, but only as long as it is THEIR religion.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)Those other religions are just silly myths and odd stories, but THEIRS makes perfect sense in every way!
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)"I had been religiously educated as a Presbyterian; and tho' some of the dogmas of that persuasion, such as the eternal decrees of God, election, reprobation, etc., appeared to me unintelligible, others doubtful, and I early absented myself from the public assemblies of the sect, Sunday being my studying day, I never was without some religious principles. I never doubted, for instance, the existence of the Deity; that he made the world, and govern'd it by his Providence; that the most acceptable service of God was the doing good to man; that our souls are immortal; and that all crime will be punished, and virtue rewarded, either here or hereafter. These I esteem'd the essentials of every religion; and, being to be found in all the religions we had in our country, I respected them all, tho' with different degrees of respect, as I found them more or less mix'd with other articles, which, without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serv'd principally to divide us, and make us unfriendly to one another. This respect to all, with an opinion that the worst had some good effects, induc'd me to avoid all discourse that might tend to lessen the good opinion another might have of his own religion; and as our province increas'd in people, and new places of worship were continually wanted, and generally erected by voluntary contributions, my mite for such purpose, whatever might be the sect, was never refused."
"These I esteem'd the essentials of every religion ... I respected them all, ..."
and, my own, is also loaded with phlogiston "some of the dogmas of that persuasion ... appeared to me unintelligible, others doubtful,"
lindysalsagal
(20,440 posts)Metta Karuna Prayer
O Amida,
Oneness of Life and Light,
Entrusting in your Great Compassion,
May you shed the foolishness in myself,
Transforming me into a conduit of Love.
May I be a medicine for the sick and weary,
Nursing their afflictions until they are cured;
May I become food and drink,
During time of famine,
May I protect the helpless and the poor,
May I be a lamp,
For those who need your Light,
May I be a bed for those who need rest,
and guide all seekers to the Other Shore.
May all find happiness through my actions,
and let no one suffer because of me.
Whether they love or hate me,
Whether they hurt or wrong me,
May they all obtain true entrusting,
Through Other Power,
and realize Supreme Nirvana.
Namo Amida Buddha
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)First, because it is not about what the principal wants to do. It is about what the taxpayers want to do. And yes, for some reason the religion of the vast majority of the population takes some precedence over other religions. That vast majority is paying the vast majority of the taxes.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)The religion of the majority has no privilege and takes no precedence whatsoever. And what the taxpayers want to do, with respect to religion in public schools, means two things: jack and shit, and jack just left town.
Religion has no place in government buildings. None. At. All. In fact, for someone to try and put it there, whether it is for 50 minutes or 50 years, IS unconstitutional. period. End. of. story.
What more can be said about that?
Kurmudgeon
(1,751 posts)Just give others the same courtesy by allowing them to speak or post how they believe.
BTW, in a public forum with many entries, using time between responses as ammunition is incredibly lame.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)No one here is buying.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)Last edited Sat Jan 28, 2012, 01:40 AM - Edit history (1)
In 1204, he was named a papal legate and inquisitor and was sent by Innocent III with Peter of Castelnau and Arnoul to attempt the conversion of the Albigensians. Failing in this, he distinguished himself by the zeal with which he incited men by his preaching to the crusade against these heretics. He was in charge of the crusader army that sacked Béziers in 1209.[2] There, according to the Cistercian writer Caesar of Heisterbach, Arnaul Amalric supposedly responded when asked by a Crusader how to distinguish the Cathars from the Catholics,
..."Kill them all and let God sort them out."
..."Our men spared no one, irrespective of rank, sex or age, and put to the sword almost 20,000 people. After this great slaughter the whole city was despoiled and burnt..."[4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnaud_Amalric
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade
Clearer?
I sincerely hope so.
chrisa
(4,524 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)_ed_
(1,734 posts)and I promise I'll never come and try to think in your church.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)that I am a Baptist?
2ndAmForComputers
(3,527 posts)What do you think that reason is?
Ter
(4,281 posts)2ndAmForComputers
(3,527 posts)But I'm not holding my breath.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)If so, what church is it, so that I can begin to work against it?
If not, why is it that you personally don't like the separation of church and state?
yellowcanine
(35,692 posts)threaten a 16 year old. Those florists are cowards. The one florist cited safety reasons but said he "hoped his daughter was as strong as Jessica" but guess what - he isn't setting an example of moral courage for his daughter by caving in to the bullies.
callous taoboy
(4,582 posts)simply do not get it.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)and the folks threatening her with violence are the endlessly persecuted, unfairly picked on victims.
sarcasmo
(23,968 posts)MarkCharles
(2,261 posts)Warpy
(110,908 posts)In the meantime, people across the country are rallying to support Ms Ahlquist in the hope of countering all the Christian Soldiers who are most un Christlike.
Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)standing up to a whole bunch of bullies.
Rep Petie Pie Palumbo is a disgrace to the Democratic party and to all his constituents who are NOT Christian.
Religious signs belong in religious institutions, not in our public schools. If you have to force your beliefs on others, your beliefs aren't very strong to begin with, I would add.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)They run as Democrats because you can't get get elected as a Republican in most places. Most of the people in the State House are on the take. Makes me sick.
The Doctor.
(17,266 posts)I'm shocked.
Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)I plan on calling him to express my feelings about his irresponsible, evil little name-calling.
Peter G. Palumbo ....Democrat - District 16, Cranston
CONTACT INFORMATION:
67 Kearney Street
Cranston, RI 02920
(401)785-2882
rucky
(35,211 posts)who needs Republicans?
CrispyQ
(36,226 posts)My letter is stamped & ready to mail.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Our Heavenly Father,
Grant us each day the desire to do our best,
To grow mentally and morally as well as physically,
To be kind and helpful to our classmates and teachers,
To be honest with ourselves as well as with others,
Help us to be good sports and smile when we lose as well as when we win,
Teach us the value of true friendship,
Help us always to conduct ourselves so as to bring credit to Cranston High School West.
Amen
NoGOPZone
(2,971 posts)If people conducted themselves so as to bring credit to the high school, she wouldn't need police protection.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)We will...
Come to school each day with the desire to do our best,
To grow mentally and morally as well as physically,
To be kind and helpful to our classmates and teachers,
To be honest with ourselves as well as with others,
To be good sports and smile when we lose as well as when we win,
And to value true friendship,
While always conducting ourselves so as to bring credit to Cranston High School West.
Why is it so hard to simply modify it so it's not religious? Why does it HAVE to be religious especially when it's clearly a violation of church and state??
Bolo Boffin
(23,796 posts)Roger Williams is about to rise from his grave about all this. Don't make him turn Rhode Island around!
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)....no dirty atheist would ever accept such a motto!
callous taoboy
(4,582 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Um, it's pretty fucking clear that those words, no matter how -sniff!- harmlessly well intentioned!!!!! -sniff!- you may consider them, DON'T FUCKING BELONG ON THE WALLS OF A PUBLIC SCHOOL.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)"All of it."
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)time and time again.
Honestly, I can't figure out why anyone would have a tantrum over this. There is a shitload of tax-exempt real estate in this country belonging to Churches of every variety, where people can erect giant fucking granite signs saying "YAYYYYY GOD!"
You can't do that in a public school, for obvious reasons, starting with the fact that NOT EVERYONE BELIEVES IN WHAT YOU DO, and they shouldn't be forced to attend public school under the auspices of an endorsement of religious belief.
callous taoboy
(4,582 posts)gets a nativity scene every x-mas, but anyone who would dare to speak out against that would be in for a rough ride.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Not only was it an overreach and a fumble, it was so shamefully obvious to all concerned what a piece of hastily arranged expedient poop that decision was, that the particulars responsible authored it in such a way that it would be essentially impossible for it to be used as a basis for ANYTHING except getting George W. Bush into the White House, that one time, in Jan. of 2001.
See, "per curiam opinion", also:
That is EXTREMELY different from the stable edifice of multiple, mutually affirming and reenforcing and precedence-setting decisions stretching over the course of the better part of a century, ALL affirming beyond any sliver of a doubt that The Establishment Clause Absolutely Prohibits State Sponsored Prayer, PARTICULARLY in a public school setting.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)"the better part of a century". 65 years is a lot shorter than 159. Especially including a couple of decades directly after the Establishment clause was written. The authors clearly did not understand the Establishment clause to mean that, because they clearly flouted it. 159 years later, a particular SCOTUS, by 5-4 decided to re-interpret the establishment clause and to increase the power of the Federal Government.
Point is, SCOTUS is not always right. Even you must concede that.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)There have been MULTIPLE decisions affirming the precedence of the Establishment Clause and how it pertains to state sponsored school prayer. And it's not going away. It's solid legal precedence written by far better legal minds than Rehnquist.
Point is, school prayer is unconstitutional. THAT is the point, tossing out would-be bon mots like "the SCOTUS is not always right" is an exceedingly weak argument. And it betrays a deep lack of fundamental understanding of the nature of the United States Constitution and our government structure.
The Supreme Court is the FINAL arbiter on interpretation of the Constitution, the Constitution being unable to interpret itself, i.e. being a set of words on paper. So the Supreme Court IS always "right", in terms of being the final authority on what the Constitution MEANS, at least until one of two things happens, i.e. the Supreme Court goes against itself and reverses precedence (unlikely to happen with the solid sort of precedence foundation upon which things like the Lemon Test are built) OR enough states/congresspeople get together to pass a Constitutional Amendment.
callous taoboy
(4,582 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)and I really don't see how we get from "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion" to "An innocuous banner that has been hanging in a school for 50 years needs to be ripped down because it happens to use the words 'heavenly father'. "
But if Congress made a law establishing a national religion, I would certainly be first in line to complain.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Yet your inability to see why an "innocuous banner" in a public school about "our heavenly father" is clearly contrary to several decades of supreme court rulings prohibiting public school endorsed prayer means you don't get it. Clearly.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Red of course being the color most likely to catch the eye, well tested by academics and advertisers the world over
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)the stuff they're trying to cram down our throats is?
"Oh, who would ever object to 'the good news'? Sheesh, I'm just trying to save your soul from eternal damnation and the lake of fire. All I'm asking is that you check your critical thinking skills at the door. Gee, whiz!"
PVnRT
(13,178 posts)Is your faith so incredibly weak that you have to shove it everyone's face all the time?
If you want to pray, go pray on your own. Leave everyone else out of it. I realize that's really, really hard, but I'm sure you'll be fine.
fascisthunter
(29,381 posts)CrispyQ
(36,226 posts)edited to replace my version with riderinthestorm's:
We will...
Come to school each day with the desire to do our best,
To grow mentally and morally as well as physically,
To be kind and helpful to our classmates and teachers,
To be honest with ourselves as well as with others,
To be good sports and smile when we lose as well as when we win,
And to value true friendship,
While always conducting ourselves so as to bring credit to Cranston High School West.
lindysalsagal
(20,440 posts)a boogieman, unicorns, fairies, leprichans, witches, vampires, wolfmen, or the lochness monster.
Which is why schools don't post signs that start: "Dear Fairy God Mother, Grant me....."
2ndAmForComputers
(3,527 posts)What do you think that reason is?
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)I recognized your name from your attempted shaming of me in another thread. Sorry to hear things are going south for you on two fronts: your desire for more authoritarian violence and your desire for a theocracy in the US. I'll go with the Constitution on both scores, thanks.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Damn. Things really *are* "going south for me".
2ndAmForComputers
(3,527 posts)fascisthunter
(29,381 posts)and they'll claim to be the oppressed... sick, sad, and ironic.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)you ate the balls of ...
Usually, the upper classmen made you.
Gosh, but I miss school.
fascisthunter
(29,381 posts)well, with the religious extremism in this country, I and millions of others do see this as an important issue. Your attempt to make this into a no-big scenario tells me your bias, and also tells me this matters to you much more than you are trying to lead readers to believe. Considering your view point on other social/political issues, I am not surprised at all. Poor poor religious folks...
jwirr
(39,215 posts)in private. I do not need to parade down the halls of some school to fulfull my religion. She is totally correct.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)2ndAmForComputers
(3,527 posts)Yeah, saw that.
Johnny2X2X
(18,744 posts)At least one person in that town cares about our Constitution!
The Wizard
(12,482 posts)American King James Version
But you, when you pray, enter into your closet, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father which is in secret; and your Father which sees in secret shall reward you openly.
Matthew 6.6
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Zhade
(28,702 posts)Suck it, haters -- you defend the indefensible.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)she has made the world a better place.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)JFN1
(2,033 posts)If all that occurs is "god's will," then I fail to understad why you do not act upon this aspect of your loudly proclaimed belief and happily accept the decision made by the court - seems contradictory to me..after all, maybe god is "testing" you...how would you know?
Are you angry at god for allowing the Constitution to prevail?
Why do you hate this aspect of our freedom so much?
And if your belief is more than simple ego-driven superstition, then why must you work so hard to restrain your obvious rage over this issue?
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Like Citizens United, for example. And Bush versus Gore.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)You don't think there should be a test for excessive entanglement? You don't think a publically funded school putting up a prayer from a specific religion crosses that line?
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)There are many, many religions in which God is referred to as "Father".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_the_Father
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)So this would be a clear support from the government for those which do over those which do not.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)but no other religious holiday. Both of these religions have a "heavenly father". So far, nobody has decided to throw a hissyfit and run to court over this.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)Interesting. So just because nobody has complained means nobody has a problem with it, right? Couldn't possibly be that the majority privilege is in effect and that the minority that does have a problem with it are not going to say anything because of not knowing what will come out of it? Like people saying they hope you get curb stomped and referring to you as a "cunt"? THAT might have something to do with people not throwing a "hissy fit."
And if your kids' public school is singing religious songs, then they shouldn't be. The court is pretty clear on that. Why no Ramadan songs? How about you get your kids' public school to sing some Islam stuff and see who throws the "hissy fit" then?
So are you going to answer the question, yet? Do you disagree with this ruling? Do you think the government/school should be putting up religious things that favor one religion (or group of religions) over another religion or, in the case of the OP, over no religion?
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)but I think a banner that has been hanging there for almost 50 years, that is full of positive messages that we can all agree with, and that kids are free to ignore if they want, should not be forcibly removed just because it mentions a "heavenly father".
Our Heavenly Father,
Grant us each day the desire to do our best,
To grow mentally and morally as well as physically,
To be kind and helpful to our classmates and teachers,
To be honest with ourselves as well as with others,
Help us to be good sports and smile when we lose as well as when we win,
Teach us the value of true friendship,
Help us always to conduct ourselves so as to bring credit to Cranston High School West.
Amen
And just because this girl was able to persuade a judge to have it ripped down does not necessarily mean that it was a good idea for her to pursue this course.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)the "Heavenly Father" reference and "Amen" and leave the rest up. No problems.
I would imagine she would still be referred to as a "cunt" for having that done. It isn't about the "positive messages" that people are upset. It's because their privilege is being challenged.
So, in short, you are fine with school sponsored prayer since you think a banner that is called a school prayer should be allowed to stay. You don't have any problem cutting against a lot of decades of SCOTUS precedence with that position? You don't find that a tad bit non-progressive?
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)annabanana
(52,791 posts)JFN1
(2,033 posts)It's "god's will" isn't it? All that happens, right? I guess it goes along the lines of a child asking, "Why does God let bad things happen?" So why be unhappy or enraged...about anything at all? Accept god's will, and all will be well...right?
geekd
(20 posts)while I am devout believer in the bible, it clearly identifies the boundry between church and state. in both the old and new testament, government officials were clearly defined from the clergy.
Raffi Ella
(4,465 posts)Christianity is not exempt from Separation of Church & State. It is not a special case and does not deserve any special consideration when it comes to S.o.C&S. Get religion OUT of policy making and out of any and all forms of government once and for all.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Raffi Ella
(4,465 posts)Separation of Church & State still applies in that scenario. Although I tend to think those Christians in Rhode Island where this happen very much consider it a Christian Prayer so, yeah.
In any case, the fact that Christians have risen up against this innocent brave 16 year old speaks for itself.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)And what other religions are in this particular school district. And were in the school district 49 years ago.
Your attempt to apologize for Christianity here is laughable.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)It HAS to be a male, because it's all part of religion's main mission, which is to control and subjugate people.
What a bunch of crock.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)Some people posting on here could be served to read it.
Facebook group in support of Jessica
http://www.facebook.com/groups/179298715436387/
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)Some people should DEFINITELY read it.
Nevernose
(13,081 posts)I ordered one for my high school aged daughter. It got here within a week and looks nice. $20 total, with $5 for shipping, $5 for materials, and $10 for the scholarship fund.
http://www.evillittleshirts.com/
2ndAmForComputers
(3,527 posts)Nevernose
(13,081 posts)If I weren't a big fat guy. "Evil Little Thing" just becomes too ironic for my comfort
2ndAmForComputers
(3,527 posts)Had the same thought, for the same reason.
I'm getting one for the Missus.