Journal News gun permit map endangers officers, officials say

[hack89]

Criticism of The Journal News, which published a gun permit database last month, broadened Friday with Rockland law enforcement officials saying the map listing the names and addresses of those with gun permits is endangering lives.

Inmates at the Rockland County jail are taunting corrections officers by saying they know the guards' home addresses -- information they got from the list published by Westchester-based newspaper, Rockland County Sheriff Louis Falco said.

"Since about 9:30 this morning, I've been in a meeting with my corrections officers and their unions. They have inmates coming up to them and telling them exactly where they live. That's not acceptable to me," Falco said at a news conference Friday morning in New City, where local leaders condemned the list.

http://newyork.newsday.com/news/nation/journal-news-gun-permit-map-endangers-officers-officials-say-1.4407323

[Cooley Hurd]

1. Boo fucking hoo...

If the guards are humane and decent, they should have nothing to fear.

If they're the type that get off on dehumanizing the inmates? Well, you reap what you sow...

[hack89]

2. What if the prisoners are not humane and decent? nt

[Cooley Hurd]

5. My estimation is the majority of the guards are sociopaths...

....and mistreat inmates and then brag about it to their buddies.

What about the inmates again?

[Jackpine Radical]

101. I had a death threat from a guy who had done about 10 years for attempted murder.

My offense was to suggest that he still posed a danger & should complete some anger management treatment before being released from parole. He refused to do it & blamed me when his parole was extended.

[Cooley Hurd]

104. Anecdotal...

[Jackpine Radical]

106. Nevertheless somewhat compelling when a secretary comes running screaming out of the office

to warn me when she sees me driving up.

[loli phabay]

6. you do realise that guys like the brotherhood and ms13 etc dont care how humane a guard is

They will still target them either for threats or leverage to use the guards to bring in contraband. I for one wouldnt want to rely on their humanity for my or my family's safety.

[Cooley Hurd]

9. Well, then the guards should change occupations...

...if they REALLY fear for their safety. Besides, as the article showed, they're fucking ARMED!

[loli phabay]

13. yeah and if the guards all resign who exactly is going to guard the jails and prisons

You think being armed is going to protect their families when they are at work. Or do you think there is some code of honour that forbids hurting family members.

[Cooley Hurd]

16. The good ones would stay, since they are respected by the VAST MAJORITY of the inmate population.

Why defend the sociopaths?

[loli phabay]

54. the vast majority are not the worry its the violent minority who target guards and their families

I suggest you visit a correctional facility and see that there are highly dangerous individuals amongst the non violent inmates.

[Cooley Hurd]

63. I have two brothers who are retired CO's...

...both of whom I love (one is deceased).

I listened to them, and their unique perspective, since I was 8 years old.

I also have a brother who is a convicted felon.

I listened to him, and his unique perspective, for the last 2 years.

I suggest you become better informed than you are right now.

[loli phabay]

67. and yet you dont realise that prison gangs reach out to intimidate guards

Seems you need to go talk to your brother again.

[Cooley Hurd]

72. My oldest brother, now retired, was 2nd in command of a state maximum facility...

From BOTH sides (yes, I've heard BOTH sides), he was professional and benevolent. He's been retired for 8 years and has NEVER received a threat.

Seems you need to go talk to your bum again.

[loli phabay]

81. then hes lucky. threats are common working the line

Most are just talk but when someone like the brotherhood takes offence then its a serious deal.

[Cooley Hurd]

84. Not luck. He was professional. And fair.

One former charge of his told me he'd take a bullet for my brother.

Keep watching "Oz".

[loli phabay]

86. never watched it though i did watch prisoner cell block h

[Cooley Hurd]

88. Okay... that made me laugh!

I remember the syndicated show. It was great 70's kitch!

[loli phabay]

90. i still remember the song he used to bring me flowers

[sir pball]

110. Anecdotal.

Turnabout is fair play!

[Cooley Hurd]

117. I'm going by AT LEAST a dozen testimonies...

from both sides of the debate. Hardly anecdotal. Nice try though!

[sir pball]

118. By your own admission

You're using a dataset derived from three family members - I don't give a fig what you think.

FWIW the (multiple) felons I know generally got along with the screws, and my screw uncle, while a beer-swilling hyperconservative hyper-Catholic prick, treats his inmates pretty well...or at least never gets any kind of crap from them. So you're WRONG! HA!

[Cooley Hurd]

119. By admissions further in the thread (which you apparently have not read)...

I have been immersed in both sides of the debate, equally on both sides, and have formulated my informed opinion based on my numerous coversations.

Your FWIW statement reinforces my informed opinion.

Again, nice try. You're new at this, no?

[sir pball]

122. Aww, I'm actually flattered

I've been here since 2005, I just prefer to lurk in general because even back then there was no real conversation to be had. It does make for a diversion from Slashdot, more so lately since they've turned into an astroturf farm. Nope, I didn't read the entire thread - your attitude at the get-go, and instant dismissal of "anecdote" when that's all you have to go on, told me pretty much everything I need to know about your mentality in a few short posts. I've been playing this game long enough that I don't need to waste my time on fifty repetitions of the same theme.

Frankly, I don't care how much you've "immersed yourself" in the issue; conversations (without proper recording and presentation, at least - but I highly doubt you're a trained and published sociologist) are ANECDOTES no matter how "numerous" and your OPINION is just that. You are not the sole arbiter of the facts at hand; you can't present anything beyond your own experiences and preconceptions but are so secure in your beliefs that you actually think you get to pat me on the head and give me a cookie, or something. It would be cute if it weren't so aggravating, and that's why I'm going to do what I've done since the 90s - leave my house and do something. Have fun on the internet

[Cooley Hurd]

130. Apparently, I hit a nerve!

[Bake]

136. Anecdotal.

Boo fucking hoo.

Bake

[Cooley Hurd]

137. read the rest of my responses...

Another one that jumps in midthread w/o reading the entire thing...

[Bake]

142. I read them.

I just didn't think much of them. Still anecdotal.

Bake

[Cooley Hurd]

143. Whatever, "Bake"...

[RomneyLies]

17. Prison guards do NOT carry firearms.

It's too dangerous because it is too likely an inmate will be able to get hold of the weapon.

[Cooley Hurd]

20. Thank god, because there would be a LOT of dead inmates...

I know prison guards and jailors. Personally. I live in a city that has a large, maximum security prison in the center of it. The people that clamor for these jobs are the LAST people who should have a position of authority, because they're precisely the type of people who abuse that position.

[JoeBlowToo]

12. Do you really think one needs the internet to locate a home location?

It's simple enough to follow someone from work to their home.

[loli phabay]

14. thats why people who work in a lot of these places actively watch for tails etc

Yes it is not hard to get the info but why make it easier.

[Cooley Hurd]

18. If they treat their charges like shit, they should fear retribution...

The ones who do their job PROFESSIONALLY will have NOTHING to fear.

[loli phabay]

44. dose not matter to the prison gangs they will target anyone they can

Do you really think it matters to these orgs how a guard does his job.

[Cooley Hurd]

46. That statement was pulled...

...straight from a place where ill-informed-opinion rules, and truth takes a "back seat". Get what I mean?

[loli phabay]

52. no that statement is from experience of talking to gang members.

[Cooley Hurd]

55. ...and?

"Well, I've talked to an actual aardvark and he said ALL ants are bad!"

[loli phabay]

60. okay im done with this. you keep believing that there isnt a danger from violent offenders

If it makes you feel safe.

[Cooley Hurd]

66. Violent offenders are sociopaths who have been ID'd by society as such.

CO's and Cops are sociopaths who are still allowed to carry a gun.

Your point is?

[Coyote_Tan]

95. Good plan... Let's let convicted felons decide...

... Who deserves violence against individuals and families.

I'm sure they'll be more than fair.

[Cooley Hurd]

105. Never said that, but please proceed...

[slackmaster]

8. Prisoners are full of people who don't play by the same social rules that most of us abide by

Some of them are downright mean.

[Cooley Hurd]

10. The guards are WORSE...

[slackmaster]

15. OK, you hate prison guards for some reason. But it's not just about prison guards being on that map.

There are also retired judges, prosecutors, and police officers with whom inmates may have an axe to grind.

And battered women and stalking victims who are trying to hide from their batterers and stalkers.

Did the editors of the Journal News think about them?

If ONE person gets hurt or killed because the paper published that map, would you even care?

[Cooley Hurd]

19. They're all armed! That's why they're on the list! Isn't that the reason WHY they're armed?

To protect themselves?

[slackmaster]

21. Some of them are armed to protect themselves from batterers, stalkers, and criminals

Nobody claims that a gun creates some kind of magic force field to protect you from bad things. It's a weapon to be used in a desperate last-ditch fight when all other defensive measures, INCLUDING AS HAVING AN UNLISTED ADDRESS, have failed.

So the paper should not have published their addresses, even though the law permits it.

We solved that "It's public information" canard here in California in 1994 after a tragedy that you may remember.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebecca_Schaeffer

[Cooley Hurd]

23. You do realize that some of those fine, upstanding citizens are more likely to cause a gun-death...

...than those who are in a jail cell, unarmed. It's statistics.

[slackmaster]

25. A far bigger risk is people who own guns ILLEGALLY, who can't get a pistol permit because...

...they already have criminal records.

Why didn't the Journal News print a map of people who tried to get permits but were denied?

[Cooley Hurd]

26. Show me the stats...

[slackmaster]

27. Repeat Felons Dominate the Criminal Justice System—Most Convicted Felons do not Serve Time in Prison

http://crimeinamerica.net/2010/06/02/repeat-felons-dominate-the-criminal-justice-system%E2%80%94most-convicted-felons-do-not-serve-time-in-prison%E2%80%94part-one/

[Cooley Hurd]

38. "crimeinamerica.net"?

Sounds biased and unreliable...

[jmg257]

48. And you don't sound biased??? nt

[Cooley Hurd]

53. As I've said throught the thread, I know both sides...

...and I've formulated a very strong opinion about both from personal experience.

[slackmaster]

98. Perhaps you would find a direct link to the FBI's recidivism analysis tool more palatable

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=datool&surl=/recidivism/index.cfm

[datasuspect]

32. prisoners have nothing else to do except hatch schemes

and many have organized criminal networks that can reach outside the confines of the prison walls: e.g., street gangs; 1% motorcycle clubs; whatever is left of LCN; white supremacist organizations, etc.

[dkf]

22. Sounds like you have a problem with prison and police and law enforcement in general.

[Cooley Hurd]

24. I have a problem giving badges to sociopaths...

You favor this?

[dkf]

29. I know a few policemen.

If anything the job changes them because being soft is to lose control of the situation, which is dangerous.

Even teachers have to gain the ability to control their classroom.

Being nice from time to time works, but if you can't enforce your will, you are in trouble.

[Cooley Hurd]

40. Not talking about nice. Being respectful and professional is what I'm referring to.

[dkf]

47. Does being respectful and professional get dangerous people to do what you want?

What if they give you grief?

I can't imagine doing this job. I'm too soft and I'd get all walked over and I know it.

[Cooley Hurd]

51. Yes. Despite what you've seen on "Lockup" and "Oz"...

...there is a strong sense of order within the walls.

[dkf]

58. Yeah if you can get the order through strength of will.

It's like Obama giving in on Susan Rice. You can't be seen as weak. Just like parenting...only these aren't innocent little kids.

I imagine in a prison you need to be just as tough or a little tougher than the people you are overseeing.

As I said, not an easy job.

[loli phabay]

64. yup once you lose the command presence then you become a target

Losing is not an option in many parts of the correctional system as it means you will get hurt or worse.

[Cooley Hurd]

74. All the people I've known that have served time say the same thing...

...there were good guards and bad guards. The good guards did their job PROFESSIONALLY. The bad ones got off on fucking with you.

[loli phabay]

77. the difference is that the violent minority will target who ever they can

Doing your job proffesionaly is no cure if they believe they have an in or a possible chance at gaining an advantage.

[Cooley Hurd]

79. But they never target a guard who has been respectful to them, despite their being behind bars...

The ones that DO target the good guards get fucked up by the other inmates.

My brother, retired Captain in the NYSDOC, told me that.

[loli phabay]

89. lol yeah because members of prison gangs are honourable people who never thats never

Use the situation to their advantage if its a guard who was respectful to them. You realise these guys will fuck over their brothers if it gives some advantage to them or their gang.

[Cooley Hurd]

91. I can only go by what my brothers - the CO's- have told me for years.

[datasuspect]

33. you've never met an actual criminal or a convict before, have you?

[Cooley Hurd]

42. I have. And, there's always an underlying issue...

Economic injustice and lack of a decent upbringing.

I also know a LOT of cops and correction officers. Their underlying issue? A feeling of inferiority that they attempt to resolve by mistreating those under their supervision.

[datasuspect]

45. your first sentence raises a crucial point

but i wouldn't say ALWAYS.

[Cooley Hurd]

49. Yes, it does...

[Robb]

3. A story on this I heard yesterday compared it to Wikileaks.

In that it just released the information with little to no context explaining the value of the information, leaving readers to their own biases.

Hard to argue, that.

[loli phabay]

4. an unforseen aspect of releasing the list. i wonder if the paper thought of this

Or if they even cared. I wouldnt be happy if my name and address was listed like this though i know the info can be found if one is really trying to find it.

[slackmaster]

7. Out come the senseless, thoughtless rationalizations and cop haters, as predictable as dawn

[Cooley Hurd]

11. If cops do not want to be hated...

...then, they should behave like human beings.

[leveymg]

28. A real stretch here. In most cases, inmate could GOOGLE guard home addresses, just as easily.

F-ck the NRA and its apologists and shills.

[leveymg]

31. You probably have more enemies than most prison guards. ;-)

And more paranoid.

[Cooley Hurd]

56. .

[slackmaster]

62. I certainly have a "fan club" here on DU

And frankly there are a handful of members with whom I would never want any personal contact.

But in all seriousness, and I really mean it, I've kept my address unlisted all of my adult life because I want to avoid contact with a schoolmate who was a bully. I suspect he still is. The guy is psychotic.

[leveymg]

94. Know what you mean. ;-)

And, I too have an old schoolmate who likes to play with guns and clubs and stuff, but fortunately nothing worse has come of that than defriending each other on Facebook.

[slackmaster]

96. My old "friend" was an early member of the Coalition to Ban Handguns, even though he owned one

A seriously deranged person.

[leveymg]

97. Indeed. A self-loathing gun owner can be seriously dangerous. eom

[customerserviceguy]

99. Got news for you

Your profile says you're in San Diego, CA, and every title insurance company there has dozens of employees who could find you in less than five minutes, and it would leave zero trace on their computers.

Sorry, I worked in that business for over a quarter-century, and you'd be surprised just how much people can find out about you if they have access to the proper databases, and knowledge about how to search them. That said, the average criminal doesn't have either, and making things easy for bozos with grudges to attack corrections officers is irresponsible.

[customerserviceguy]

147. Agreed on who is at risk because of irresponsible "journalism"

As to who accessed data, if someone looks something up on a microfiche, how does that leave a trace? There are websites that let guest users log in to view property data, if someone did that from a library computer, it's absolutely untraceable as to who did it.

[slackmaster]

148. I can speak for how things are done at the San Diego County recorder's office and courts

In order to inspect a microfiche record, which would generally include property records and court proceedings earlier than about the mid 1990s, you have to go to the office in person. You present ID and fill out and sign and date a form before a clerk will physically get the fiche.

You are given access to a fiche reader that has copy capability. Charge is something like 5 cents per page.

You are on camera the whole time.

For newer property records, you can go on the county's Web site and search for document availability for free without identifying yourself. But if you want a copy, you have to make a payment, e.g. by credit card. Hard copies are mailed.

This applies to things like deeds, and also broader documents such as bond agreements and marriage licenses.

http://arcc.co.san-diego.ca.us/services/prop_assess_links.aspx

Here's Ernie, our Assessor/Recorder/County Clerk who is in charge of all of those records. His operation is run efficiently and effectively. I've always had good experiences dealing with them.

1

ETA there are secondary (commercial) sources for all of that information, but because THEY have to pay the county for the data they charge their customers for it as well. And of course they keep records of what they sell.

[Historic NY]

128. Exactly........

its called opting out anyone in a high priority can and should have, appparently they didn't get the memo.

[blueamy66]

138. I can get a homeowner's address for free

on Maricopa County's website.

[slackmaster]

140. Yes, if the home is vested in the person's real name

Some people have them vested in numbered trusts in order to keep their physical addresses secret.

[blueamy66]

144. Never heard of that.

Hmmmm.....some people must really need to hide.

[slackmaster]

145. Yes, some people really do need to hide

People who stumbled into a lot of money and don't want to be hustled all the time, and people who are being stalked or have reason to believe that someone might want to do them harm.

[blueamy66]

146. Is it costly to do this?

Cause I may need to hide someday!

[slackmaster]

149. Yes, I believe the cost starts in the thousands and goes up depending on your situation

There are law firms that specialize in hiding people.

I have a friend who won a multimillion dollar lottery prize. Before he bought any property or did anything else that would create public records he went to such a firm. He once told me the cost. IIRC it was in excess of $10,000.

I used to work for a company that aggregates and sells public record data. I can tell you that my friend's name appears only in historic records for some property that he owned in the past. You would have to happen to know that he once earned that property for his name to come up in a history report, and that wouldn't tell you anything about what he owns now or where he lives.

[datasuspect]

34. you do realize that inmates don't have unrestricted access to the internet?

[leveymg]

36. You do realize that nobody does life in County Jail?

And that they don't wipe clean the memory of all inmates when they release them?

[tradecenter]

37. You do realize that prisoner computers are highly restricted and regulated, don't you?

[leveymg]

43. Not when they're let out of jail, they aren't.

Partial smarts can be more dangerous than just plain dumb.

[tradecenter]

50. And they wouldn't have this info

if the Journal hadn't been so irresponsible as to print names and address'. In my state, gun owners with CCW permits is blocked from all except law enforcement, as it should be, and we don't have to register our weapons, so no newspaper can out whoever owns weapons.
The fact is that what the Journal did may have been legal, but it was highly irresponsible to do.

[Cooley Hurd]

57. The guards wear name tags...

Those name tags have nothing to do with the internet...

[tradecenter]

65. So what?

Why make it easier by printing their names and address' in a newspaper?
What that newspaper did may have been legal, but it was a highly irresponsible and dangerous thing to do.

[Cooley Hurd]

70. Welcome to DU!

If a CO has been an asshole, their name being in the paper does not increase the chance of a comeuppance from someone they abused. They made their bed by acting unprofessionally.

[tradecenter]

73. I can agree with that.

If a prison guard is an asshole, then he's brought grief upon himself and someone with intent to hurt will find a way, I still think that what that newspaper did was totally irresponsible.
Thanks for the welcome.

[loli phabay]

75. you do realise the definition of asshole differs between normal people and violent offenders

The abuser who gets arrested thinks the cop who arrested him is an asshole as is the da and the judge. Simply intercepting contraband puts you on the list. As is not allowing the prison gangs to dominate a block. The mentality amongst a lot of these guys is totally different than your average joe on the street.

[Cooley Hurd]

76. No, it's a universal definition...

[loli phabay]

78. not in prison its not. the rules are different.

[Cooley Hurd]

82. Well, the rules aren't different...

...but keep watching "oz".

[loli phabay]

85. i think you need to visit a facility or ask your family as the rules for inmates are very different

Especially when dealing with prison gangs they have their own rules and codes of conduct.

[Cooley Hurd]

87. Oy vey. You're just repeating yourself, despite what I've said...

[loli phabay]

71. smart guys do last name only and a good idea is to use a trust for your home

A lot of dept. Also teach about posting stuff on facebook. Regardless of what you think there is a danger for everyone in the criminal justice system due to the people who go through it.

[leveymg]

61. You're just laughably wrong about everything you just wrote.

Publication of gun-owners names in some newspaper does nothing to endanger prison guards - there are many ways to find out where a particular person lives, if you want to know badly enough - the argument made in the OP is just laughable, as are many of the answers on this thread.

[tradecenter]

83. Sorry, but I disagree with you.

That newspaper was irresponsible to print those names and address' and now it may very well backfire on them. NY now may make it illegal to release names of permit holders to anyone other than law enforcement and any hope of national registration may well have been scuttled by this dumbass stunt.

[datasuspect]

41. what would be the purpose of tracking down information of a county jail turnkey

once you are out on the street?

would you want them to deliver drugs to your house in uniform or something?

plus, you can't use commissary at home - so the prospect of threatening their family so you can get more money on your books is kinda moot once you are released.

pro tip: criminals generally fear/hate the police, so once they are out, they more than likely will avoid anything police related. until they get caught again. or something.

do you actually know any criminals or convicts?

[tradecenter]

35. You really think a prisoner can just walk up to a computer and google a guard's home address?

Those prison computers are highly restricted and regulated and watched very carefully.

[leveymg]

39. Cheez-itz. Ever seen so much fuzziness on one thread? See response #36 above.

[jody]

80. Classic exchanges between those who believe guns create crime and those who look to science to

identify the many factors that make people high risk dangers to commit crime.

That's not too different from those who believe god create all things versus those who look to science to understand the laws of nature.

[slackmaster]

59. I have a friend who is in a California state prison. He can't touch a computer. He's lucky if...

...he can get time on a typewriter.

[tradecenter]

69. My point exactly.

My youngest son is a prison guard and the computers that prisoners are allowed to use are tightly restricted, regulated and watched by cameras.

[B2G]

92. It's not when theyre IN jail that we need to worry about...

it's when they get out.

[tradecenter]

93. True.

Very true.

[slackmaster]

102. But inmates can have friends outside of prison. They can exchange letters and even phone calls.

[Comrade Grumpy]

68. Could someone point me to the epidemic of ex-prisoners going to guards' houses to harass them?

[Robb]

103. It's over there, next to voter fraud.

[slackmaster]

109. Did you even read the OP, Comrade Grumpy?

The knee-jerk, thoughtless rationalizations being spewed by the people who support the Journal News's actions are astonishingly shallow.

[Lady Freedom Returns]

107. In Journalism Ethics class, we were made to think...

"Is it right to report?". What harm can it do? This is part of that harm. When you put out the info like this, it's out. Those guards will now have to live with the thoughts like " Do I dare stop this guy from doing wrong to another inmate? He knows where I live." Or if during a search of a cell and the guards find drugs, the thought " Do I dare report this? He knows where I live."

What the Journal News did is bad reporting. They did what we are told never to do, report before thinking of the pro's and con's. This was not breaking news, they had time to think. Now it is those reporters that better be ready to live with what can happen, like guards getting hurt.

[slackmaster]

108. The same thing was taught in my advanced photography courses in the 1970s

The professors told us to put ourselves in the place of any person of whom we were considering taking a photo.

[Orrex]

111. I served as jury foreman on a 3rd degree murder trial

We were directly responsible for returning a guilty verdict that landed the defendant in jail for 15+ years. My name and participation on that jury are part of the public record, and it would be a simple matter for a vengeful convict to have someone track me down.

I did nothing wrong by serving on the jury, and in doing so I committed no crime. Should this information be hidden from public knowledge?

[hack89]

112. That gets tied up in the Constitutional right for a fair and open trial.

but that being said, anonymous juries are common for organized crime cases so I suspect it is not clear cut what the answer is.

I just fail to see how posting a list of gun permit owners serves the community.

[Orrex]

113. On the other hand, I've seen no compelling arguments against a list of permit owners

In the several discussions I've had about it here on DU, the only arguments I've seen can be boiled down as follows:

1. The gun owner's right to privacy trumps all other considerations
2. The gun owner fears that the list will make him a target for burglary

Neither argument is persuasive IMO.


Even the current argument about prison guards is unconvincing, because a motivated prisoner could obtain the same information about the guards with little difficulty, especially if he had help from outside.

[hack89]

115. The only persuave argument I have seen

is the one involving women hiding from abusive ex-spouses.

There was no thought put into it - the paper posted the information to make a political point. Perhaps the answer is to create criteria and a process such that vulnerable people could be protected.

[slackmaster]

116. With all the support that women get on this forum, you'd think that would be a slam-dunk reason...

...NOT to make the information available.

But some peoples' hatred of gun owners is so strong they manage to rationalize it away.

[Orrex]

120. Actually, yeah. That's a pretty good reason.

If the permit information is available publicly anyway, then I'd have to think that the abusive spouse could track it down in some fashion. Might not be easy, but such abusers are notorious for their determination. I have a good friend who's living more or less off the grid at this time because of an abusive ex, for instance.

If the list in the newspaper is a problem in this regard, then perhaps it's simply pointing out the underlying problem that this info is available to the abusers. Can that be changed? Can an exception be made for people who have a court-recognized need for this particular privacy?

[slackmaster]

123. California DMV registrations used to be fully public and freely accessible to anyone

That changed after a stalker looked up a vehicle registration to find the address of a young actress. He murdered her.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebecca_Schaeffer

[Orrex]

124. Not quite that simple, apparently

Learning that Theresa Saldana's stalker, Arthur Richard Jackson, had tracked Saldana's address via a private investigator, (Robert John) Bardo approached a detective agency in Tucson and paid them $250 to track Schaeffer's home address via California Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV) records.

So it's not as though Bardo ran down to the DMV and thumbed through their records; he had to hire an agency to do the searching.

Even so, I'm not sure that this particular case is relevant here. There are at least 100,001 ways to track a person down, even if that person is actively working to hide his or her location. Hell, I hold an insurance license, so I am easily located on the public listings of at least three states. Other datapoints similarly subject citizens to public scrutiny, such as my aforementioned jury service, certain traffic violations, etc.

And if we're playing a numbers game, we also have to ask how many lives might be spared by the publication of a list of registered gun owners.

[slackmaster]

125. In the absence of information that suggests otherwise, the answer to your final question must be...

...Assumed to be zero. The Null Hypothesis that is the default answer to all questions in science regarding causes and effects.

[Orrex]

127. Well, that harkens back to a previous discussion on this subject

That time around, the argument was made that the publication of registered gun owners' names would necessarily make them more tempting targets for burglars. When I asked for evidence that this would be the case, the answer was that there was no evidence because it was a new phenomenon.

In the absence of information that suggests otherwise, the answer to that question must be assumed to be zero.

[slackmaster]

131. I think the OP presents sufficient evidence that publishing addresses IS a problem

"Since about 9:30 this morning, I've been in a meeting with my corrections officers and their unions. They have inmates coming up to them and telling them exactly where they live.

I think that is a real problem.

[Orrex]

134. First of all, I'd need to see documentation of that claim

Unfortunately, the officer's testimony is, in itself, insufficient.

Second, I have already pointed out that a determined convict can easily get his hands on this information regardless of whether or not the owner list is published.

So that leaves us at square one.

[slackmaster]

114. You could make your physical address unknown and unsearchable if you really wanted to

There are ways of doing so - I know a few people whose locations are not discoverable in public record data at all.

I think people have an inherent right to keep their addresses private, even if they have served on a jury or have a pistol permit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebecca_Shaeffer

[Orrex]

121. Maybe, maybe not

If there are 100,000 ways to conceal one's address and identity, then there are at least 100,001 ways to find them out.

In any case, celebrities aren't a useful example in this discussion, because their job by its very nature puts them in the public eye, and Ms Shaeffer was killed before we had anything like the modern internet, so a search that wouldn't have been possible in 1989 would be easy today.

[mike_c]

126. then don't carry guns....

Problem solved.

[hack89]

129. Or ensure that gun registration does not become common

problem solved.

[slackmaster]

133. That's how I see it. If registration information can be misused, that's enough of a reason...

...to work against registration.

[slackmaster]

132. This situation has NOTHING AT ALL to do with carrying guns, mike_c

[mike_c]

135. of course it does....

The newspaper in my county did this four years ago, in 2008-- not an interactive map, which was likely beyond their abilities, just the names and addresses of all registered gun owners in Humboldt County. Nothing dire happened. Nothing. And like the current instance, gun owners howled at the "irresponsibility" of doing such a thing.

Nonetheless, that article sparked a conversation about guns in our community. I don't know that it changed anything, but I do know that having the conversation is better than not, and I also know that nothing bad came of it. This is a very rural county, and it turns out there are LOTS of registered guns here, and given that marijuana cultivation is the backbone of the county economy, I presume there are even more unpermitted guns than registered ones.

In any event I'm speaking from some experience, since this already happened in my community and the only outcomes, to the extent that I can see any, were mostly positive as far as I can tell. None of the dire predictions came to pass.

[slackmaster]

141. A New York State permit to OWN a gun does not entitle a person to CARRY it in public

Nonetheless, that article sparked a conversation about guns in our community. I don't know that it changed anything, but I do know that having the conversation is better than not, and I also know that nothing bad came of it.

It galvanized gun owners to fight tooth and nail against registration and licensing, which I regard as a good thing.

[stevenleser]

139. The information was publicly available anyway. Anyone could have compiled it. That being said, I am

not in favor of what the Journal News did. But if you need to remain anonymous and such, you should avoid doing things that require public registration. Gun ownership is one of those things.