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[Neon2012]

This message was self-deleted by its author (Neon2012) on Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:41 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[Recursion]

1. Were you starving 2 years ago?

We did fine with the full FICA levy for several decades. But your concern is noted.

[A HERETIC I AM]

15. Thank you.

All this bullshit about the "cliff" makes me often ask that same question.


Was it so damned horrible in the 1990's?

[Skip Intro]

35. Tell someone struggling paycheck to paycheck to suck it up.

Tell someone barely making it they can do with a little less.

[Recursion]

39. They can; they did until 2 years ago (nt)

[FightForMichigan]

89. You know...

you come off as callous as a hardened Republican with this crap.

No, I wasn't starving two years ago. But then, two years ago, I had a job that paid 40 percent more than the job I have now. Post-layoff, I can't afford paying 2 percent more in taxes as easily as I could then. I hardly think I'm the only one in the same boat.

That aside, I am not against taking steps to strengthen SS and other important programs. I think getting rid of the $113,000 cap on the social security tax is a far greater idea, but I'm not angry about the payroll tax holiday going away, either.

But you don't have to be a jerk about it to people who are struggling.

[Illinoischick]

94. Haven't you checked how much higher the cost of groceries are today????

The additional money made it a little easier to make my weekly grocery list.

[NCTraveler]

73. Yes, people making minimum wage were probably close to starving two years ago.

Probably still are today. No, many making minimum wage are not doing well with FICA the way it is. Clearly you are fine with it, many of us are not and will keep working for a more progressive taxation system.

[Neon2012]

77. I don't think starving vs not-starving is the best way to look at it.

[glowing]

2. I'm not. It doesn't amount for a lot per pay check

and it was defunding social security.

[RomneyLies]

9. It wasn't defunding Social Security.

But it was linking Social Security to the deficit because the 2% was made up with money from the General Fund, so I'd rather let the payroll tax holiday expire.

[WCGreen]

14. Exactly...

[glowing]

40. Essentially, it is making a run at social security.

It would be better to try and give extra tax credits or a lower % of pay for people making less. It wasn't the best idea to cut that amount for a tax break.

In actuality, if this country would cut the war machine and create infrastructure jobs and open Medicare to all program, then we would be setting ourselves up for a prosperous future... But those at the top of the money piles they have hoarded don't care about common good or sharing. They are the one's who feel entitled. And with the trade policies we have now, we've allowed those at the top to become unaccountable to a single country.

I really think that we need to re-examine wealth as a whole and how we value life, land, and the quality of these items. I don't know how we collectively begin to try and change the idea of what is "value"? We are all taught from a very early age what the power of money is and what "rich" is supposed to look like.

We have amazing technologies, very smart people, and there is no good reason to me why people's natural inclinations are not being pursued for the betterment of society. We can't keep up buying shit and making the world a garbage pile. It doesn't make sense for people to "work" so much for basic needs and survival. It doesn't make sense to keep doing things in this manner, however it's really hard to get people to think in an entirely different way than they have been taught. Those with all their fancy degrees in economics, finance , and business have been taught based on theory and modern practices.

I'm not sure what a practical living experience should be valued at, implemented, or work on a global level that doesn't exploit people. I do know what would look like a healthy life for me and for most people. I'm not sure how we get to that look? I do know we should try to get there. I know we deserve it for ourselves and our future and our children's future.

[lunatica]

43. You should start a thread on this topic

I'm basically a Democratic Progressive Socialist who believes that capitalism isn't a bad thing as long as everyone's basic needs are taken care of.

by basic needs I mean housing, health care and education which includes college and food for those who can't afford it or are unable to work, such as the elderly, children and the handicapped and mentally ill. All the basic needs to stay alive and healthy. Yet for those who can afford it they can pay for anything above the basic needs through their salary if they choose to do so. They can also reap the benefits of becoming millionaires and enjoying all that pertains to that, as long as they pay the taxes to maintain a decent life for those who need the help.

[Neon2012]

86. This is a great article you may be interested in.

http://livingeconomiesforum.org/From-Main-Street-to-Wall-Street

There's an audio link at the top.

[blogslut]

3. I think it's about time the payroll tax cut was ended.

It was always meant to be temporary.

[bhikkhu]

4. It was a nice little bonus...

but I can do without. I was always a little uncomfortable with the precedent it sets as far as Social Security funding, and I'd rather a little hardship now (when I'm working and able) than more hardship later when I'm hopefully retired.

[TheCowsCameHome]

5. What should we eliminate in order to extend the break?

[pangaia]

12. The Department of War !

[TheCowsCameHome]

17. No argument here.

That is the best place to start.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

22. We already did that. About 1947. (nt)

[Care Acutely]

36. INO

in name only.

[pangaia]

49. True. It is now called..

The Department of Defense. "Defense" my ass. :&gt ))
Actually, maybe we should change the name back..

[horsedoc]

29. +1

[Puzzledtraveller]

65. Predator drone average 4.5 million each

How many families would that help feed or give a little more on their paychecks?

[Neon2012]

6. I understand willingness to sacrifice for the greater good

but other things should come first - cuts in military spending, for example. Or how about GE or Exxon / Mobil chipping in a little more?

The Tea Party is going to spin this as a straight-up Obama tax increase on the middle class.

[SidDithers]

46. The Tea Party will? Interesting...nt

Sid

[Neon2012]

48. I guess you are accusing me of spinning it that way.

I'm simply having a hard time explaining to my wife why our beloved Obama is going to take more of her money.

I convinced some friends and family to vote for him and now they'll make less money.

Just having a little trouble justifying it. I'm 36. I'm pretty sure SS won't be around for my generation anyway.

[maxsolomon]

50. Grow a pair, 36 year old.

It will be around. Any challenges it has are easily fixable by raising or eliminating the cap. Don't believe the hype.

If you want to thank any politician for letting it expire AFTER A 1-YEAR EXTENSION, thank the brinksmen in the GOP.

[Neon2012]

57. Wtf? Grow a pair?

Not expecting it means I'm fine without it.

[Puzzledtraveller]

68. It's the new way around here haven't you noticed?

Don't like something, get over it, suck it up, grow a pair.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

82. Child...

I will be 65 in February...back when I was 21 they were pissing and moaning that Social Security wouldn't be here for my generation. I've been getting my benefits for over 2 years. Republicans always do this...they love generational warfare...and it's a lie. SS will be there when you are my age.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

79. That would be really interesting as so many of them want SS protected at all costs. n/t

[Neon2012]

81. I doubt the average teabagger understands the correlation

between SS and the payroll tax break.

I didn't until it was explained in this thread, and I like to think I'm better informed than the average citizen about what the gubment has been up to.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

83. How old are you? n/t

[Neon2012]

85. I offered that info earlier. Why do you ask?

Look, I'm getting the impression this thread is annoying people quite a bit - not my intention.

Your average worker who sees $50 less per paycheck, or more, is not going to care about what it does for Social Security.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

90. I saw that after I had asked....

In order to realize a cut of $50. the gross would have to be $2,500 per pay period. The payroll tax cut was just a 2% temporary cut. Now, if someone is earning $2,500 per week or even biweekly, he/she can handle the extra $50. Someone earning $2,500 a month, is probably being paid every week and the weekly bite is $11.54.

It really doesn't matter whether they "care" about what it does for social security now... they will care long about the time they turn 50 and begin to realize they haven't saved enough to retire without it.

I asked your age because I have never met anyone earning a paycheck who didn't know that their FICA tax, aka Payroll tax, was a separate tax for SS. Thus, perhaps you were very young and newly employed.

[Neon2012]

96. Just haven't paid much attention.

I'll be making $40/month less. That doesn't bother me much. The thread was started to get some opinions.

[Trajan]

7. Tell you what .. Let's cut other taxes, and leave the Payroll Tax where it should be ...

Funding SSI and Medicare.

It's time to pay slightly more, and keep the programs solvent, extending their life and reducing heartburn over the purported 'underfundedness' ....

Let's further reduce income taxes on the lower and middle classes while increasing taxes on 'the rich' so the economic system is more stable and equitable for the whole nation, and NOT rigged to help 'the rich' abscond from their citizen's responsibility to help pay down the debt ...

[cthulu2016]

38. payroll holiday benefits millions who don't have federal taxes to cut

For whatever flaws it has, the payroll tax vacation is the simplest way to pump money into the economy in a way that reaches the working poor.

[Puzzledtraveller]

70. Thank you.

[TheKentuckian]

8. Nope, pleased as punch. What worried me was failing to fund Social Security properly

and the treasury pass through.

I deeply regret the cut was ever offered, it was stupid politics. Too few noticed the benefit but everyone will notice the difference the other way.
Now we'll have wall to wall bellyaching about the Social Security contribution.

[RomneyLies]

11. Social Security was still being funded. Nothing changed in the money going into the trust fund.

What changed was the difference was made up with money out of the General Fund and because of that, Social Security could be tied directly to the deficit.

Now, it's once again a 100% stand alone program, which is good.

[doc03]

10. No the payroll tax cut shouldn't have been done in the first place

The money had to be borrowed to make up the difference, that doesn't make sense to me.
Most people never even realized they were getting a cut unless you told them. The Republicans already had a lot of people thinking Obama raised their taxes even though he cut them a couple thousand.

[Recursion]

21. Though with borrowing so cheap, that makes a certain amount of sense

In fact, if we weren't in the midst of a deficit hysteria I'd say suspend all taxes and levies and pay for government entirely through borrowing for one year. That would also probably raise bond yields, which would get some cash moving out of corporate coffers into more productive arenas.

[Neon2012]

13. Remember the $40 a month campaign pitch?

What does $40/month mean to you?

That was just hype or what?

I'll feel it. I'm not rich.

[yardwork]

18. Sales taxes are going up in my state because the Tea Party took over.

I'm a lot more worried about that.

[dems_rightnow]

19. Remember when they told you it was just for 1 year?

Be glad you got a bonus year.

[julian09]

53. Get a better paying job.

[Neon2012]

58. Great idea.

Why didn't I think of that?

Brilliant.

[jwirr]

16. This tax is what supports social security - I would be more concerned if it did continue.

[hughee99]

20. Here's a table outlining the difference

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2013/01/02/payroll-tax-holiday-expires-see-how-much-youll-pay-now/

At $20k income, it's $400 (about the cost of a muffler)
At $50k income, it's $1000
At the max $113k income, it's $2274

[Recursion]

24. So I lose $50 a paycheck. That means only one bender at the bar per pay period rather than two.

*shrug*

[SoCalDem]

23. It was a bad idea from the get-go.

All it did was add a few bucks (2%) to each paycheck (mostly unnoticed anyway)....BUT

since the general fund was "reimbursing" that money, it allowed republicans to finally claim the SS was "costing the government money"..

Pres. O took that in place of another stimulus that he wanted, and would have been more helpful.

Polling showed that a large number of people still thought that their taxes had gone up...when they had actually gone down by 2%

[enlightenment]

51. I don't think it's bad that it went away,

but I guarantee you that I noticed the difference. I especially noticed it yesterday when I got my December paycheck (which they waited to cut until January 2, so yes, the 6.2% was taken - along with higher income tax, for some reason I haven't figured out yet).

Yes, in the long run it's better to have SS disconnected from the General Fund - but please don't tell people that it is "mostly unnoticed".

It may not be more than a "fender" (as noted above thread) or another "bender at the bar" (also noted above) for many DUers, but that 2% makes a difference to a lot of people. $60 a month could be groceries, or the tank of gas to get them to work, or a bus pass, or their kid's school lunches . . . a lot of things that are definitely noticeable.

No, it's not a tax increase. No, it was never meant to be a permanent reduction. Yes, it's better in the long haul - but it is a potential hardship for many people. It isn't a HUGE hardship - they still have jobs and for most it won't mean they'll lose their homes or whatever other horror you can think of - but a series of small cuts will eventually bleed a person as dry as slicing through an artery.

It is sad that so many DUers are so dismissive of real concerns, as if they cannot fathom any reality but the one they live in.

[SoCalDem]

52. sick puppy vs dead puppy

we will "miss" the $150 a month too, but I'll take that vs what a real tax increase might have been or what the lowering of SS benefit might have been after longer "make-up" of money from the government.

NOTHING is ever fully acceptable/welcome to EVERYONE

As a society, we (many/some of us) have been trained/conditioned to accept that every/most issue has to be "all this or all that", with people lined up on either side...ready to do battle with any who dares to disagree/deviate from one's one philosophy..even a teensy weensy bit.

Legislation regarding taxation is never benign to everyone, with only benefits flowing down on the masses. Someone's ox always gets gored...or at the least, poked a bit.

My generation has been poked at, ripped up, shredded since we first entered adulthood...and as we enter the final decades of our lives, we cannot expect much to change, as much as we wish it to be different.

[enlightenment]

56. I don't disagree.

I already understand why the holiday was a bad idea - which I believe I made clear in my post.

My comments had more to do with a presumption - not just yours (which was mild, but followed some pretty outrageous posts that got my knickers is a twist, so your post became the proverbial straw) but others as well - that the reduction in people's paychecks is petty cash and that anyone who so much as comments on the end of the holiday is a whinging, self-entitled brat. And stupid, too - obviously - since they can't see the forest for trees and need to be instructed on why the holiday was wrong from the outset.

I'm a boomer and not the tail end, either. I get it - and I'm hopeful (though not convinced) that the eligibility goal posts for SS will not be moved again . . . so it is to my benefit that SS stays healthy. What I don't accept is the idea that it's such a tiny amount each month that it makes no difference. It does make a difference to many people and I am dismayed at the lack of empathy displayed by the people who have the wherewithal not to be bothered by that 2% reduction.

At this point I fully expect to see someone post a "sure sucks to be you" response to another DUer who dares to comment on the end of the holiday. It would fit in well with what DU seems to be morphing into (and before you presume that my relatively low post count indicates I haven't been around long enough to make a statement like that, please check my profile.)

[SoCalDem]

61. I am not a "score-keeper", nor do I look at post count,

since we have had name-change-holidays around here in the 11 years I have been here..also, I rarely pay attention to who is posting...I respond the what's said..not who said it..

I also do not see your comments as whining.. I am more of a macro person ..and have lived through more downturns than upturns I guess

[Neon2012]

59. Thank you.

Exactly.

[Autumn]

25. Think of it as saving for your old age if that helps.

I'm not concerned in the least. Didn't have that tax break when I was working and I managed.

[RebelOne]

88. Yes, you will be thankful for that Social Security check in your old age.

I know I am. I paid into Social Security for over 50 years and I am thankful to be receiving that monthly check.

[LanternWaste]

26. Sometimes its tough to pay one's fair share...

Sometimes its tough to pay one's fair share; but I'd rather do without premium cable stations than watch the nation's infrastructure decay even more.

Bridges failing, schools deteriorating, and veterans not getting appropriate medical treatment seem a wee bit more importan to me than 4 extra channels of HBO... I don't think too many people would "take kindly to that. Isn't anybody concerned about it...?"

[Neon2012]

27. From above...

6. I understand willingness to sacrifice for the greater good
but other things should come first - cuts in military spending, for example. Or how about GE or Exxon / Mobil chipping in a little more?

The Tea Party is going to spin this as a straight-up Obama tax increase on the middle class.

[LanternWaste]

28. People may spin as they may...

People may spin as they may... I however, will pay may fair share for living here. Others can quibble as they may-- or leave; word has it that Rwanda has low taxes...

[Smilo]

30. Not sure it will make that much difference

but, I honestly don't mind - if it can make a difference in peoples' lives that means they will be able to eat people food and not cat food then that is just fine with me.

And I don't think I am alone.

[Mona]

31. I'll feel it.

$150 a month, almost $2000 a year. I went through all of my savings with furloughs and family illnesses.

I thought it was dumb when they did it, and understand why it needs to be stopped.

That doen't mean it won't hurt.

[TheProgressive]

32. This should instill in our minds that *we* pay for our Social Security

Which is a good thing.

And, and, these SOB's must keep their filthy hands off of it. And
when they do discuss SS, it is to *add* more (earned) benefits to the recipients.

[BlueCheese]

33. I think lowering payroll taxes was a terrible idea politically.

I would much rather have had an income tax break for lower incomes instead.

Having said that, how exquisite is it that a temporary tax cut affecting lower incomes duly expires as scheduled, while temporary larger tax cuts for people making up to $400,000, as well as a greatly reduced estate tax, go on indefinitely.

[Skip Intro]

34. It will make a difference. That was the rationale for it in the first place.

People making minimum wage or thereabouts will surely feel it.

People living paycheck to paycheck will surely feel it.

And they're not going to be happy about it.

[DevonRex]

37. The 2 years are up. Did ya think that was a joke?

It was a 2-year holiday. Holiday's over. It is pretty simple. Two years. Count them. One. Two. That's it.

[kelliekat44]

41. If you want SS to stay solvent, this is a good move. This money comes back to receipients. nt

[lunatica]

42. I struggled even with it and have no emotional problem without it

It's a struggle either way. I was far more worried about taxes being raised, and that isn't going to happen.

[JoePhilly]

44. No one will notice. Fox told them Obama raised their taxes even though he'd lowered them.

They didn't notice when he cut those taxes 2 years ago, and they won't notice when they go back up.

[OldDem2012]

45. It's going to go into the Social Security fund.....

....America should like that quite a bit.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

47. It was a devil's deal...

Obama want something stimulative. Putting an extra two-percent into the hands of every working American does provide an economic stimulus. Of course a $1 trillion jobs and infrastructure bill would be stimulative as well, but there's no way the GOP would support that. Since cutting the FICA tax was a technically a tax cut (hooray), the House Republicans would go along with that.

It wasn't a good deal. It means that for two years, we've been under-funding Social Security. But it was as good a deal as Obama was going to get.

[alarimer]

54. It pisses me off while rich FUCKERS get their tax cut continued

All people are going to see is that their paycheck is smaller. Mine will be $50 smaller, although probably less in actually because SS taxes are taken out before your withholding, so that part will be smaller. So call it $35 or so after all.

Still a chunk of change for someone who took a pay cut already as a state employee, because the cost of benefits keeps rising.

I don't care what you say $250 grand is rich. And they can all go fuck themselves.

[florida08]

55. Understand that this is

The only tax besides Medicare that we actually get something back on. My lights and water both went up more than this and am using less than ever. Think I'm not ticked about that? And they sure aren't giving me any kind of holiday break in paying. No way gas should be at the price it is either.
If you need to point at someone who is screwing us, there are plenty but SS isn't one of them.

[X_Digger]

60. Nope, not concerned at all.

My paycheck decreased by $81, $24 of which is increased insurance premiums.

I can take that, if it means the SS fund is in better shape.

[glowing]

62. My check was $2.40 less than it normally is. I think I can handle the increase.

[realism101]

63. The max for me

$2274 for me and a little more than $1000 for my wife.

You would think that during the course of these discussions, with Obama being the one saying, "Only families making more than $250,000 will be affected" that someone (him, maybe?) would have been honest with the American people and said, "Oh, yeah, by the way, the payroll tax holiday is going to go away, too."

You know that when SS was implemented the retirement age for collecting benefits was 65. Now, it is all the way up to 67. <sarc> Despite the fact that average life expectancy has increased from 63 to 78 years. We need to extend the age on a graduating scale.

[NRaleighLiberal]

69. you can start collecting at 62, but you get more if you wait longer. n/t

[realism101]

72. Good point...

...so the age of early benefit collection needs to be extended on a sliding scale, too.

[gollygee]

64. I'm bummed about it but it was clearly defined as a "holiday" in the first place

so we would understand how temporary it was intended to be. Would it have been better if we'd never been given the holiday and we'd been paying this amount for the past two years?

[Neon2012]

74. Yes and No

Yes, because it has proven itself poorly in terms of its publicity.

No, because the cash has proven quite helpful to a lot of people.

[Xyzse]

66. No, unless people talk about it a lot

I mean, the change in the paycheck is about 2%, so you get 98% of what you are making at the moment.
It is more or less equivalent to about an hour of work lost.

[Neon2012]

75. Which can be significant.

[Capt. Obvious]

67. This is the first I've heard of it

[Pryderi]

71. If we popped the cap on the payroll tax, we could keep the 2%

[Sekhmets Daughter]

76. No one who would like to collect Social Scurity some day.

[Richardo]

78. WHERE HAVE ALL YOU PEOPLE BEEN??

Why is anyone surprised? This was a well-known, broadly publicized outcome of the fiscal cliff negotiations.

These paycheck-deduction-amazement threads are an embarrasment to DU.

[Neon2012]

84. This post was not a paycheck-deduction-amazement thread.

The intention was to find ammo. I adamantly supported Obama's reelection to a lot of friends and family who may have done otherwise, and now I know I'm going to hear about this from all of them.

[Richardo]

91. All right, I'll post my yelling on one of those threads.

But I have to say, this one reads like an amazement thread.

[realism101]

80. Economist

An economist on Bloomberg this morning said he expects the fiscal drag due to this increase to be about 1%, annualized. On an economy that is barely growing at 2%, annualized, this is very bad.

[Glassunion]

87. See post 87

I don't look at it as a tax break.

I also don't look at it as my taxes going up / pay going down situation either.

SS holiday to me was equivelent to my retirement fund not being funded and growing as much as it could. Now, I am making the proper contribution.

If my employer said that they were going to give me an extra $40 a week for two years instead of funding my 401k with it. I would not look at it as a pay deduction when the two years was up any more than I would look at it as a raise for the two years I was receiving it.

[slackmaster]

92. ...

[Marrah_G]

93. OFFS

[Neon2012]

95. No idea what that means.

Just so you know.

[HangOnKids]

97. It means nobody is buying what you are peddling

Really easy! You're welcome!

[Neon2012]

98. Not peddling anything.

What do you think I'm peddling?