3 cops shot at the police station. If only they had been armed...

[Speck Tater]

http://news.yahoo.com/three-jersey-police-officers-shot-134330961.html

(Reuters) - Three New Jersey police officers were shot early on Friday at their police station, and one was in surgery for his wounds, a hospital official said.

The suspected gunman, who had been brought to the Gloucester Township Police station for a domestic incident, was killed in the exchange of gunfire, local TV reported, citing police officials. Gloucester is in central New Jersey about 16 miles outside of Philadelphia.

"A violent struggle occurred while the suspect was being processed," Gloucester Deputy Police Chief David Harkins said, according to Philadelphia TV station NBC10. The man was able to grab a gun and then opened fire.

So let me get this straight. Carrying a gun makes you safe from being shot by your own gun?

[bluestate10]

1. The police station in my small city is set up so that cops are protected from

citizens walking in. They can speak to us, but are behind bullet proof glass. It would be hard for a person walking in to shoot up the place. I don't know the procedures of how cops in my city handle arrested people because I haven't had the honor of being in that situation .

[Barack_America]

6. Um, I don't think this guy came to the station voluntarily.

[Jenoch]

2. The cops made a procedural error.

They also used their guns to kill the suspect to stop him from further shooting.

[Fumesucker]

3. What happens when an armed teacher makes "a procedural error"?

Not asking you specifically, just a general question.

[Speck Tater]

4. +1000 And what about

when the concealed carry guy in the mall makes a procedural error?

The problem with believing that gun toting makes you safe is that it assumes a perfect world where nothing ever goes wrong, and everybody reacts in a predictable, well-scripted way, just like in the movies.

[Jenoch]

8. The reason the Clackamas mall shooter

stopped shooting others and shot himself is because he saw a 22-year old CCW permit holder with a gun. How many innocent bystanders have been shot by a CCW holder in a public incident? (By the way, it is more likely for a LEO to be convicted of a crime than a CCW permit holder).

[AgainsttheCrown]

9. If cops who are supposedly well trained in using force in critical incidents...

Can make this kind of mistake, what prevents John from accounting with his NRA membership from doing the same?

[Jenoch]

10. Their error was not in the use of force.

Their error was in restraint of the perp while in custody. He never should have been able to get to the officer's weapon.

[Speck Tater]

12. It doesn't matter WHAT their mistake was.

What matters is that a serious mistake was made by highly trained officers, which implies that if even the highly trained can screw up, how much worse can hot-shot amateur know-it-alls screw up?

[Egalitarian Thug]

22. "Highly trained"? You've got to be kidding.

The only difference between the average cop and the average mall security moron is 2 IQ points and the ability to pass a drug screen.

How this myth of competent police ever took control is a mystery. It must be due to the idiotic fantasy world of TV.

[graham4anything]

51. That's why we should use the #1 security in the world...Minister Farhakhan's.They protect the public

Let's put their security in each and every place in America.
Wonder if the NRA and tea party are fine with that.

If not that, let's beg, borrow and ask Israel for their security force, the big Moose.
The single best country security in the world.
They don't play games.
They check credentials of their trainees.

[AgainsttheCrown]

15. You didn't read my link...

You referenced the Clackamas mall shooting as an example of a CCW holder saving the day.

As a counterpoint to the 'guns in every orifice will save the day' argument- I referenced the NY shooting in which trained police officers shot 9 bystanders during a shoot out with a guy who murdered and shot 1 person.

[Jenoch]

16. Those officers were poorly trained

and their handgun triggers were double action only with 12 pound triggers because their superiors all the way up to Bloomberg don't trust them.

(The average CCW permit holder spends more time on the range than do most NYC cops).

[AgainsttheCrown]

21. Shooting a piece of paper...

Is hardly the same as shooting a moving target that can potentially kill you. Even if they do get more range time (which isn't surprising)...they haven't had the training on developing the mindset required to deal with a critical situation and may lock up, or fuck up when the moment comes (as some officers do).

Call of Duty doesn't count

[Jenoch]

26. I see you focused on my parenthetical aside

instead of my point that the NYC cops had little chamce with 12 pound double action trigger pulls. Eith that kind of equipment of course they won't react well.

[AgainsttheCrown]

37. It still addresses the issue

I don't dispute that the modified trigger is a problem, but the officers not being proficient with their weapon is the bigger problem...

I've used personal time and money to become more proficient on a new weapon. It sucks...but I may have to shoot to kill someone and I'd like to ensure that I was at least adequately familiar with the weapon.

[Jenoch]

27. By the way,

cops shoot at paper targets st the range. I am unawate of PDs getting live subjects to volunteer to make the training more realistic.

[AgainsttheCrown]

38. Really?

Simunitions...live shoot houses...scenario based training. It may not be as often as is necessary, but I don't see regular classes geared towards CCW'ers that go beyond this.

And when do CCW'ers drive 100 MPH to priority 1 burglaries in progress? When do they clear dark buildings that may house a burglar inside? When do they drive towards shots fired calls?

That's not common sense and it's not something that you can just do...you have to develop a mindset. That won't come from shooting paper with a big gun, playing Call of Duty, or masturbating to a gun magazine.

[MichaelHarris]

18. that's the new right-wing talking point

truth is you have no idea what the mall shooter saw. The guy you say "stopped" the mall shooter did the same thing the last 2 CWP holders did during a mass shooting, they hid. Idiot in Arizona hiding behind a column in the Safeway while a unarmed senior citizen disarmed the shooter, the guy behind the counter when the soldiers were shot in the IHOP, and now this new "hero" who didn't stop jack shit. Stop with the right-wing NRA bullshit, your Mall hero didn't stop shit.

[dballance]

53. Your statement has not been verified by reliable sources

There has been no reliable proof that the shooter in the OR mall even saw the CCW holder and that's what stopped him. Most news reports tend to report that he, like other shooters, stopped and killed himself when law enforcement arrived.

I will say the CCW holder was very responsible and did not fire his weapon because as he admitted in interviews later he could not be sure he wouldn't hit an innocent bystander.

[MrMickeysMom]

19. Gee... THAT couldn't happen...

No need for the sarcasm emoticon...

[Egalitarian Thug]

23. I've got what appears to be news to you. Most cops are ill-trained idiots.

The same monkey-see, monkey-do morons you find working as mangers in convenience stores throughout America. Their training consists primarily of how not to blow the politically ambitious CA/DA case in a way that can't be covered up.

[Ed Suspicious]

34. The same type of people with the same type of gun skills as your average concealed carry participant.

[farminator3000]

46. no, you are an NRA-trained idiot, learn how to argue. most cops are ok. i know them well!

is that your problem? you think you need your gun because you are better than the police?

as with any group of people, there are always bad ones. yes there are macho a-hole cops, but there are plenty you can chat with at a little league game that are totally cool, so fuck off!

i've been arrested plenty of times, and i am saying, for the police, to you, "FUCK OFF!"

understand?

most NRA members are obnoxious ideological sheep, and selfish.

that, i can agree with.

[Egalitarian Thug]

50. You couldn't be further off the mark. Is that the result of some of that "police training" you

are shrieking about?

I'm the anti-NRA guy that wants to disarm everybody because I intimately familiar with firearms, their use, and the consequences thereof.

I also know a lot about cops and police departments. How badly they are trained, how the American justice system fails to work, and what cops do on a day to day basis.

All people like you will accomplish is thrashing about and screaming until you cost the least destructive party even more elections.

[datasuspect]

56. weak

[sarisataka]

5. So should we disarm the police

[Jenoch]

11. Don't even make that suggestion in jest.

StarboardTack has made such a suggestion on more than one occasion on these threads. Of course in his native England, cops routinely go unarmed (where he was a LEO, according to him).

[sarisataka]

31. I've had that discussion

with ST. We respectfully agree to disagree...

[Kolesar]

41. You won't be discussing anything with Jenoch

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022085545#post28

[Egalitarian Thug]

24. If we were serious about curbing gun violence in America, yes. But we're not.

What we're serious about is making people feel good about doing something, no matter how useless, without hurting any campaign contributor's profit margin.

[sarisataka]

35. We are serious about talking about it

and mostly serious about waiting for someone to do something about it... like say the tooth fairy.
Any elected person who is at any risk of loosing their seat will put out a lot of air but little action. Those who are secure will put up legislation that does more harm than good to be called radical liberals, while burning the rest of the BoR at the Republican BBQ or spout insane thoughts that play well with those who expect the UN to come marching into DC to dictate terms at the White House.

All the while violence, of all types, goes merrily on its way going up or down for reasons no one can really explain...

[Egalitarian Thug]

36. I think that the reason for our uniquely American brand of violence has been pretty well explained.

We just don't want to hear it. If all the guns in America disappeared tomorrow, we would lead the world in axe murders.

[farminator3000]

47. bullshit

explain it then.

you can't run away from a gun.

i would guess performing an ax killing would make you feel a little icky somehow, plus take muscles and coordination

shooting someone makes you feel like rambo

[Egalitarian Thug]

49. Bullshit yourself.

How the fuck would you know what shooting someone feels like?

It has been explained so often, for so long, and in so many places, that anyone that claims not to know is either too lazy to look or too invested in spreading ignorance and division acknowledge it.

[Brickbat]

7. If that guy had had his own gun, he wouldn't have had to get mad and grab someone else's!

Er, or something.

[Jenoch]

29. If he would have been armed,

he would have been disarmed at the time of arrest.

[blueamy66]

42. Disarmed by whom? The "poorly trained" police officers?

nt

[MichiganVote]

13. Hmm...needed a Teacher on site?

[notadmblnd]

14. I know! Let's put armed guards in every police precinct in the US

that way there, when the bad guy comes with his guns a-blazing, the armed guards can protect the police? whadda a say? Problem solved!

[Jenoch]

17. Three cops get shot and you come up with

a flippant comment like this?

The perp was arrested because violated a protection order. His handcuffs were removed so that he could be cuffed with his hands in the front for processing (prints). He overpowered a female rookie cop and took her gun and shot three cops. Two cops ran into the processing area and returned fire and killed him. The cops were not seriously injured. One took three shots to his vest.

Obviously, the rookie should not have been allowed to process this guy on her own.

[MrMickeysMom]

20. So, the point is made, then...

Here you have people formally trained (yeah, the rookie had to go through a rigorous process) and YET, somebody gets hurt by bullets, even when they don't get dead.

Tell me a teacher has even the equivalent to a rookie cop, and I'll tell you to go straight to jail, and do not pass "Go".

[Jenoch]

30. Why are you bringing up teachers?

I am unaware of any teachers in that police station at the time of the shooting.

[MrMickeysMom]

45. Because, they are part of the wider conversation we have all been having...

...which started the latest NRA based "craze" to arm every person to avoid homicide. That's why.

[notadmblnd]

48. Yeah, so?

Did you write the head of the NRA and attempt to shame him for his ridiculous remarks? I'm sorry that you deem my attitude flippant when it was sarcasm that I was attempting to convey. I guess I should have used the little smiley, so you would have understood.

[jillan]

25. Every single one of these horror story has one thing in common - GUNS!

It doesn't matter where it happens, it happens everywhere.

What do we need to do - put up fortresses around every single building in the US?

Oh - I forgot - everyone needs to walk around with a holster on their hips.
Why don't we trade in our cars for a horse while we are at it, and then all meet down at the local saloon for a nite cap?

[Jenoch]

33. Huh?

This happened at a police station. What is your point? Do you really want to disarm the cops?

[quaker bill]

40. Don't encourage them

or they will be hunting for horror stories that feature axes.

[Progressive dog]

54. Lizzy Borden took an ax

gave her mother 40 whacks, when she saw what she had done, she gave her father 41.
See, not only an ax murder, but a famous one. It proves that since people can be killed with axes, regulating guns will not help stop gun crimes. Obviously.

[MFM008]

39. Guns didnt stop this

A few years ago in Tacoma, WA a guy with a gun walked into a coffee shop and killed four fully armed LakeWood officers as they were getting ready for their work day. One managed to get a shot off but the gunman didnt die.
Armed, trained and caught unaware. All 4 dead. So what now? What works???

[arely staircase]

43. "the gunman...was killed in the exchange of gunfire"

eom

[1-Old-Man]

44. Do you mean 3 Police Officers were shot while in a police station or did 3 Officers shoot at one?

I hate to be the grammar police but that title was just over the top. The Officers may have been shot while in the police station but I doubt that they stood outside of the building and shot at it.

[graham4anything]

52. The poster hottie for the NRA

[img][/img]

[Ter]

55. If no one was armed, a lot more than 3 would have been shot

The gunman was killed before he could do more damage.

[Care Acutely]

57. K n r