General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsBoth China and India are Amazing Stories of Poverty Reduction... We Should Stop Demonizing Them
I would direct you all to the UN's The Millennium Development Goals Report (2011)
http://www.beta.undp.org/content/dam/undp/library/MDG/english/MDG_Report_2011_EN.pdf
"The fastest growth and sharpest reductions in poverty continue to be found in Eastern Asia, particularly in China, where the poverty rate is expected to fall to under 5 per cent by 2015. India has also contributed to the large reduction in global poverty. In that country, poverty rates are projected to fall from 51 per cent
in 1990 to about 22 per cent in 2015. In China
and India combined, the number of people living in extreme poverty between 1990 and 2005 declined by about 455 million, and an additional 320 million people are expected to join their ranks by 2015. Projections for sub-Saharan Africa are slightly more upbeat than previously estimated. Based on recent economic growth performance and forecasted trends, the extreme poverty rate in the region is expected to fall below 36 per cent."
These countries are massive success stories of the modern era. China, with its economic reforms in '79 and India with its reforms in the 90s have reduced had amazing results reducing extreme property. Instead of demonizing them, we should understand that it is world economy and that we have to work together. The world is not hopeless and people in both China and India escaping property that few in this country could understand is not a bad thing.
The economy changes and jobs move. However, jobs are also created and innovation still happens. We as a country have a lot going for us. We can solve our problems and compete globally. In fact, we are currently solving our problems and we are very competitive globally. We don't have to keep demonizing other societies that "take our jobs."
I should make a note that the UN is measuring "absolute poverty here" THey define that as "a condition characterised by severe deprivation of basic human needs, including food, safe drinking water, sanitation facilities, health, shelter, education and information. It depends not only on income but also on access to services." It translate into living off of less then $1.25 a day. The level of poverty in India is far different then any type of poverty here.
msongs
(67,395 posts)BrentWil
(2,384 posts)Rates, as judged by UN standards, are still very, very, very low. They are measuring "absolute poverty" here. What they are measure is the percentage of the population that lives on less then $1.25 a day. That is the number they come to to take care of basic needs.
What has gone up in the US is relative poverty.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)people.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)The UN is measuring people that don't have "WIC" These are people that literally live off of less then $1.25 a day. That includes any government programs or charity.
If you sit back, think about that for a second, it should amaze you.
I am not saying we shouldn't do more for the poor here. We should. But the poor here, do not compare to the property in other places.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)Anything else you propose is simply sacrificing their lives.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)They are simple different types of jobs. We have to get the American worker ready for them.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)BrentWil
(2,384 posts)However, new jobs will and can be created. The problem with the labor market right now is that skill sets don't match up with the jobs that are there. There are actually companies that are struggling to find workers right now.
Even with all that said, unemployment is falling and things are getting better.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)The "new" jobs being created are very few.
Run the math. Count up every last company that says they are struggling to find workers. Count up the number of jobs. Now count up the number of unemployed. Compare the two. Even if every last American got every marketable skill known to humanity, most unemployed would stay unemployed. Do the math.
Look at our job growth. Compare it to the growth of our working class population. The former is STILL the smaller number. That means we're putting more workers on the market than there are jobs being created. And MOST of those jobs are low paying.
The jobs that are being created, what few they are, are demanding higher productivity from workers. They are, as a result, leading to a reduction in the need for workers. You want to see what this has led to, over the last few decades? Here ya go.
[img][/img]
The "skillsets mismatch" argument is a LIE. We have tons of engineers, especially computer engineers, who are out of jobs. Here's an exercise for you - look at the jobs where companies are saying they're "struggling" - notice how they're not PAYING more? If you have a shortage of workers, the pay always goes up. The pay ain't going up.
Finally, unemployment isn't falling - people are simply running out of benefits and are not being counted.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)That is reality. It takes less to produce more. Go talk to the workers in the 1920s. Same problem.
The means that it is solved is to figure out additional shit people will buy. See Computers, Cars, TVs, etc. New markets are created and wealth is generated.
That is the way that it is always solved. And it ends in a better standard of living for us all.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)More people are losing their jobs, going homeless, and now more Americans have trouble finding food than the Chinese! CITE!!! --> http://www.gallup.com/poll/150068/chinese-struggling-less-americans-afford-basics.aspx
And no shit, if you are coming from having less shit, you are going to think less shit is basic. That is all your "poll" basically says. America's are going to consider more things basic while people in China are going to consider more things basic. THey are polling apples and oranges.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)HughBeaumont
(24,461 posts)Remember him from DU2. Sad.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Always reduces itself to personal attacks?
What is it about this issue that reduces certain people to utter hysteria?
Convince the Chinese. Even make the attempt. What are you going to say to them?
HughBeaumont
(24,461 posts)It's hardly "hysteria". The "Rust Belt" suffered tremendously as a result of offshoring; not just in plant closure, but depletion of the secondary businesses that depended on the living wage incomes of those workers.
"Free Trade advocate" is hardly a personal attack for some, who wear it proudly on their sleeves.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Now meant to sound "evil."
No, one does not have to be "free trade advocate" to question the necessity of this hysteria, or whether there is a scapegoat here.
What of people whose companies are still functioning due to outsourcing? Ask them if they should give up their jobs?
This is allowing the divide and conquer theme, thinking that "the Chinese" are easy to demonize and that no one will give a crap about them.
We need to unionize internationally, not demonize the "other" workers. We used to allow that within the US, now people are falling for this same thing but figuring they can easily promote hate of foreigners.
HughBeaumont
(24,461 posts)I've seen Manufacturing Landscapes. The workers put up with brutal hours, stringent QA checks, militarized cordoning in groups, pollution, e-waste, etc. . . . all for the privilege of living as a slave. We actually feel sorry for the workers. It's the executives on both sides of the fence that need to be taken to task; not only for shifting labor overseas to make a greater buck, but advocating slavery to the nations they shift the work to.
Nobody's "demonizing" workers. We're demonizing the practice itself, which has brought more hardship to every nation involved while inflating the coffers of the overlords.
There's also this buying into the logic of the NEED to offshore labor. We're talking the differences between mere "profit" and "ever-competitive Mega Profit". A system that depends on perpetual wealth, growth, resources, education, etc in a world where none of that exists . . . well, I don't need to tell you how that's going to end.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)We see through these nonsense arguments.
What we're going to say to China is, no more of this!
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)South Korea, Panama and Colombia...
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/theoval/post/2011/10/obama-signs-free-trade-bills/1
I think your arguments against it are unfounded. However, even if they weren't, "rebelling" is a little strong of a word.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)Of course I can see why you think "free trade advocate" is an insult, because it is a stupid position to take.
TheKentuckian
(25,023 posts)and no I don't care about their loan money or providing security for their commerce.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)Using POLLING data is no means to measure this. You are polling what people think. Of COURSE people are going to think things are better in China because things SUCKED before. OF COURSE people are going to think things are worse in the US, because we are in an economic downturn. How does a gallup poll prove anything besides a measurement of what people think in two different societies.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)And you can take that right to the bank.
Fool Count
(1,230 posts)There is nothing easier than increasing demand for workers - just legislate 6-hour workday and 4-day
work week. Problem solved.
Saving Hawaii
(441 posts)Not to blunt the hardships of life around much of the world, but straight dollar figures really aren't comparable between the first and third world.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)The measurements are never prefect. You can always rework how you measure absolute poverty. The problem with reworking the numbers is that, it just becomes more difficult because relative purchasing power does vary a lot even within a country.
While I am a social scientist at heart and love measurments , I have seen poverty in both the United States and India. There really is no comparison. While $1.25 does buy more in different places, the social welfare net in this country does cover a much higher figure then $1.25 a day. Even adjusted for relative purchasing power, poverty in India is on another scale. I am again not saying that we shouldn't be doing more. We need to build a bigger middle class. The problem with our economy is on the demand side and the best means to solve that is to bring people into a middle class. We have lots of work to do, but India moving in the right direction is not a bad thing.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)to drag us down in the process.
Do you get it yet?
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)I am saying that it isn't a zero sum game. China and India gaining a middle class and getting people out of living under $1.25 a day is not what is hurting or hurt our economy. In fact, it is a good thing.
When people make more then $1.25 a day, we can sell them things.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)where more jobs have come to America as a result of trade than have left.
And unless we become poorer than China and India we will NEVER, EVER export more than we import to them.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)Job creation number since Oct 2010 have always been positive.
http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/ces0000000001?output_view=net_1mth
We still import more then we export. Where did those jobs come from?
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)2) most of those jobs you mention are very low paying jobs.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/26/recoverys-jobs-pay-less-t_n_909515.html
Look, guy, you're totally surrounded here by people who see right through your arguments. Ever wonder why almost no one agrees with you?
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)However, some jobs will pay less. Here the government has a role to play. I think something like a reverse income tax is something we should advocate.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)Do you get it yet?
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)One of those policies is not isolation. We are coming out of a recession. It is sort of expected that most new jobs will pay less, until the employment rate drops further and the labor market becomes tight.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)BrentWil
(2,384 posts)And have been greatly reduced over the years. Therefore, we are moving away fro isolation.
The problem (problem in your point of view at least) is technology, not tariffs. That is the real driving force, now.
eShirl
(18,490 posts)What things can we sell them? We barely make anything here at all anymore. What are we going to do, take the cheap goods we buy from them now and sell them back to them at a profit? Good luck with that one.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)escaping poverty.
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)Homeless people in the US, probably gather at least that over the course of the day. Yet, here they are still starving, lack shelter, and other basic necessities.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)I would challenge you to find any reported in the news.
That is not the case in other countries, where famine is still a real threat.
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)My point is that it is relative. Poverty in the US compared to poverty in other nations is apples and oranges.
Some would say that poverty in the US would be a live of luxury elsewhere. Having a few deaths from starvation or health problems aggravated by malnutrition is the American version of extreme poverty. $1.25 goes a lot farther in India and China than it does here. That does not make any of those conditions justifiable.
My opinion is that we should be able to have a better quality of life for less money but our priorities are screwed up. I'm glad that there are places that are making some progress.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)Absolute poverty in other countries decreasing is not a bad thing... While we have things to fix, there is no need to demonize societies that are taking steps forward.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Much of the money we pay for food is for the packaging and the transportation of the food. In less developed countries, people eat differently than we do. They buy more in markets from farmers and less from corporate supermarkets.
If you live in an American city, you either hook your sewer line into the city sewers and pay high water and sewage charges or your house is declared uninhabitable and you are not permitted to live there.
Most Americans who are poor live in cities where they can't just dig wells for their water.
If you want to work in the US, you have to bathe and wear fresh clothing.
Many homeless people in the US live on close to $1.25 per day. But Americans look away and don't realize how little those people with the carts full of bottles get for all their work collecting recyclables.
unlawflcombatnt
(2,494 posts)What's "gone up" in the US is the number of Americans below the officially designated poverty line.
It's "relative" to our own standards of living--which have declined.
ingac70
(7,947 posts)Zalatix
(8,994 posts)Saving Hawaii
(441 posts)I'm certain that's an obvious result of free trade. Back in the good old days you didn't have a job 'til you turned 18 and graduated from high school.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)Much of India used child labor on farms for centuries.
Saving Hawaii
(441 posts)Can you name any places that didn't?
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)Just making sure.
Saving Hawaii
(441 posts)Then they'll all become rich American citizens who don't even care about the benjamins falling out of their overloaded pockets.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)Saving Hawaii
(441 posts)like Newt.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)new "jobs" that will never materialize.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)unlawflcombatnt
(2,494 posts)So should Americans compete with child labor for wages?
Maybe you think Americans should start putting their own children to work for slave wages--even before they start high school.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)It certainly does. That doesn't mean it hasn't taken amazing steps forward.
The noise was deafening and air in the factory in northern Gujarat was so thick with cotton dust it was like a snowstorm at night.
Women and girls, some no more than 10 or 11, fed machines with raw cotton picked from the nearby fields.
It is a process known as ginning - one end of a commercial supply chain that ends up as clothes and textiles in high street shops around the world. Globally, annual revenues from the industry are measured in the trillions of dollars.
Many household-name retailers concede they do not know exactly how the cotton they use is farmed and processed. Yet, for years, labour activists here have campaigned for their help.
Mopar151
(9,980 posts)As workers here once did. But so far, in developing countries, workers have had little power to affect these working conditions. I'm sure China is killing a lot of coal miners, too - evil bastards like Don Blankenship would kill more Americans in a heartbeat, if we'd stop Massey Energy from being "bothered" by MSA, OSHA, EPA, and the miner's unions.
But who cares, if we job it out to China, and kill a few score of Chinese a week? We ought to friggin start, before we all devolve to the level of these poor souls.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)BrentWil
(2,384 posts)Certainly. We need to work with the world as a whole to solve these problems.
But is it not a good thing that a whole lot of people are not living off less then $1.25 a day?
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)then, No, it is not a good thing.
American companies manufacture in India, China, etc. in part because of the cheap labor, but also because of the lack of environmental laws. Makes it much easier to accumulate the millions.
It would be better if we had wage and environmental laws that were universal and that protected all workers whether in developed or developing countries. We would all be better off.
One of these days, people in India and China will wake up and think back to the time when their air and water were clean and wish they had not industrialized so fast.
unlawflcombatnt
(2,494 posts)Is that there are a lot of Americans--your countrymen--who are living off $0.00/day.
And many more of your own countryman who are living in abject poverty.
Oh, I'm sorry. I just assumed you were an American.
Maybe I was wrong on that.
Or, maybe you're just another pseudo-American free traitor.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)When we run out of jobs to give them, they'll plunge right back into poverty.
Saving Hawaii
(441 posts)You really want to get into desert island economics?
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)FACT: offshoring devalues the dollar. CITE!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=52324
FACT: offshoring increases national debt. CITE!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ian-fletcher/free-trade-agreements_b_1102615.html
Does the devaluing dollar mean less offshoring? YUP! CITE!
http://mises.org/daily/2883
Less offshoring means less jobs for India and China.
Your turn. Show where I am factually wrong. Provide cites.
Saving Hawaii
(441 posts)BrentWil
(2,384 posts)"India was the United States' 17th largest goods export market in 2010.
U.S. goods exports to India in 2010 were $19.2 billion, up 16.9% ($2.8 billion) from 2009, and up 738% from 1994 (the year prior to Uruguay Round). U.S. exports to India account for 1.5% of overall U.S. exports in 2010.
The top exports categories (2-digit HS) in 2010 were: Precious Stones (diamonds and gold) ($4.2 billion), Machinery ($2.7 billion), Electrical Machinery ($1.4 billion), Aircraft ($1.3 billion), and Fertilizers ($1.1 billion).
U.S. exports of agricultural products to India totaled $755 million in 2010. Leading categories include: tree nuts ($244 million), soybean oil ($133 million), pulses ($96 million), and cotton ($69 million).
U.S. exports of private commercial services* (i.e., excluding military and government) to India were $9.9 billion in 2009 (latest data available), 2.1% ($213 million) less than 2008, but 712% greater than 1994 levels. Other private services (education), and travel categories accounted for most of the U.S. exports in 2009."
We also export a lot to China.
https://www.uschina.org/statistics/tradetable.html
Do we CURRENTLY import more then we export? Yes. But that doesn't mean trade doesn't help us. We continue to grow our economy and create jobs with innovation. Simply because they are getting richer doesn't mean we are getting poorer. It isn't a zero sum gain.
If you want a path to real property, cut this nation off from trade. We will suffer, like North Korea is currently suffering.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)If we don't cut off trade to India and China our economy will eventually implode.
See my cited facts in Post #16
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)We, the United States, were the first free trade zone. And it allowed us to grow in wealth and property. Free trade is not a bad thing and no one is "imploding"
PETRUS
(3,678 posts)Your analogy highlights a key difference - trade between NY and NJ is much more "free" than trade between the US and China, or the US and India. It is much easier for labor to move within the US than for labor to move across the globe. In particular, there are legal barriers that prevent more highly trained foreign professionals from coming to practice in the US. This nature of our trade agreements (they are not "free" trade agreements, "free" is a bogus PR term in this case) causes wages for some kind of work to go down while wages for other kinds of work are propped up.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)Zalatix
(8,994 posts)Behold your "better than $1.25/hour" world:
[img][/img]
[img][/img]
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1917897,00.html
[img][/img]
Also, so not surprising that you got *crickets* as a response.
This OP sucks sooooooo much ass.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)However, people that make more then $1.25 a day instead of less is a good thing.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)Choose. Choose now.
An expanding middle class or jobs going overseas. You cannot have both. Choose one.
PETRUS
(3,678 posts)Professional elites are often politically well-connected and successfully seek protection for themselves while they lobby for trade agreements that pit middle class workers against foreign competition. Free trade in physicians and medical services could save Americans $80 billion to $100 billion a year. This is ten times the estimated benefit of NAFTA.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)Holy shit, you haven't just drunk the KoolAid, you've eaten the KoolAid Man..
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)And the export and production figures of the US are suspect because we calculate them, as I understand it, based on the value of the finished products, and those finished products can and do contain parts manufactured in other countries.
There can be no denying that Americans overall are poorer than they were 40 years ago. We have not had waves of foreclosures like those we are having now since at least the 1930s.
We will change our trade policies sooner or later. Our current "free trade" policies may be working for India and China, but they are not working for ordinary Americans. If we had tax and welfare policies that compensated American workers for the lost jobs and income, then there would be less resentment. But as long as we reward the rich for creating jobs in China and India, we won't have job creation here -- at least not enough of it.
Just recently, I went into the 99 cents store early in the morning. In the line in front of me was a homeless man with less than a dollar to spend. He was ready to cry because he had enough to pay for a small sack of candy for his breakfast, but did not have enough to pay taxes. Fortunately, he did not have to pay tax. He was so incredibly happy when the cashier told him there would be no tax.
What can you buy for $1.25 in the US? A candy bar, maybe. Maybe a couple of tomatoes. At certain times of the year you can buy more, but really, it is very hard for unemployed Americans right now.
JI7
(89,247 posts)China lacks civil rights, horrible pollution problem.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)But instead of demonizing them, can we at least say that it is a good thing that they have less people living off of $1.25 a day?
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)BrentWil
(2,384 posts)I said, China and India becoming richer and bring people out of poverty doesn't hurt the United States. COuld you quote where I said, "more of us should lose our jobs"
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)Translation: you wish Americans would shut up and just let our jobs get taken.
Well, guess what, pal, as you can see all around you in this thread, WE ARE NOT SHUTTING UP.
You, sir, are seeing the birth pangs of a revolution against the pro-offshoring argument. America is a powder keg of opposition to your argument and we will not be cowed, we will not be talked down to, we will not be intimidated, and we will not stop until the vampire that is globalism is forced into the light of day where it will perish.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)Markets change. The world changes. Change with it or get left behind.
It isn't a bad thing. In fact, on the whole it is a great thing. We benefit, they benefit. It is a win-win for everyone, on a bigger scale. Will there be losers? Certainly. We have to do what we can to provide education and a means of transition. But the world is not returning to 1950.
brentspeak
(18,290 posts)For some, it might be returning to 1793, though.
As you said, there will certainly be losers.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)Zalatix
(8,994 posts)And America is about to force the WORLD to stop taking our jobs away.
Because we can. In fact, being over 20% of the world's GDP, we can shut the whole world DOWN.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)"We are strong, and we are going to use our strength to ensure that our living standards remain high, even though that forces yours down" - which is what you are advocating - is a perfectly viable position for America to take.
But it's also, clearly, an evil one.
HughBeaumont
(24,461 posts)I mean, free trade is great if you think nothing of the consequences that fall on many of this country's workers as a result. What about pending American underemployment? Movement of labor to other nations since the 1970s has yielded nothing but hardship, forclosure and downward mobility to American workers. The visual and economic evidence is overwhelming, you don't need statistics to work that out. Real wages for the middle/working/poor have not risen since 1979.
JI7
(89,247 posts)numbers can be misleading with wealthy increasing the wealth and maybe those in middle class getting a little more. but those in extreme poverty not moving anywhere .
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)Zalatix
(8,994 posts)BrentWil
(2,384 posts)Hell, we are going to need higher consumption to fix our own economy. That is why growing a middle class is so important. Products need buyers.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)with offshoring.
Read the article. I posted tons of documentation.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)Direct question. Is that a bad thing? Someone living in China or India on more then $1.25 a day, is that somehow bad?
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)And we Americans are responsible for doing this to China:
[img][/img]
treestar
(82,383 posts)A different issue altogether.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)How very shocking.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)That was the US in the 1950s. Different issue but one that has to be dealt with.
girl gone mad
(20,634 posts)Going from subsistence farming to working in a factory may mean they earn a few cents a day, but are their lives any better?
I say this as the granddaughter of two farmers. My grandparents worked hard dusk to dawn from the time they were children, but they have always been happy. They're still healthy and strong, too.
Will the Chinese workers who move into slave labor camps and do menial tasks like gluing one part in place for 32 hour shifts look back fondly on these days? Will they be healthy, even into their 30s? Many are already sick and injured, with disabilities more common to old age. What will they do when they get older with broken bodies and no skills to care for themselves?
My grandparents built a life and a home, working the land and raising animals. What will these Chinese slaves have to show for all of their hard work? The stuff they make ends up in landfills when Americans get bored with it or it breaks in a year or two.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)And yes, it does matter. Death by starvation sucks. I have seen it. Not very pleasant.
girl gone mad
(20,634 posts)Live as a slave or starve?
Whatever.
PETRUS
(3,678 posts)It's the neoliberal way.
You are describing simple poverty, and noting that people can be forced out of that condition into abject poverty.
treestar
(82,383 posts)We had that time in the late 19th century and the early 20th century. Not that it is pleasant, but it is the basis of our lifestyle today.
So I don't feel right condemning others for putting themselves forward into the modern era. I do wish the Chinese had more of a democracy, though. However that may come about as their lifestyle gets better.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)ellisonz
(27,711 posts)BrentWil
(2,384 posts)That was Sarcasm, in case you didn't know
ellisonz
(27,711 posts)...it's easy -
F%@#'em.
You can tell me to stop demonizing the PRC when they stop returning North Koreans, occupying Tibet, and brutalizing their own people.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)ellisonz
(27,711 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)In that case, why don't we in the US deserve to suffer because we bombed Iraq, etc.?
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)If that's so, we can't steal German or Swedish jobs, right? Or aren't foreigners human?
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)American workers are human, too. Yet we're the ones who suffer the most from "free trade".
treestar
(82,383 posts)I notice you don't answer the question of where German or Swedish companies set up here. Is that not stealing "Swedish jobs?"
How do you determine which country owns the jobs?
How do you know there aren't Chinese jobs here? There could well be some.
This was a "problem" before we had high unemployment rates, too. As long as the employment rate here is all right, who cares if other countries advance?
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)If the product is sold here, it must be made here.
Again, other countries are free to advance - but not by taking American jobs.
ellisonz
(27,711 posts)brentspeak
(18,290 posts)talking points on DU?
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)Zalatix
(8,994 posts)is that better?
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)That is my base argument... the US Chamber of Commerce makes a big deal about global poverty?
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)Do you get it yet?
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)It is the nature of the World. you might as well be bitching about jobs going from Michigan to South Carolina. The world changes and workers have to change with it.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)And jobs moving from Michigan to South Carolina is not even in the same world as jobs moving from the US to China.
Your arguments are not just wrong, they are scary wrong.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)What magic made these jobs appear?
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)1) Most of the jobs being created pay less than the jobs they replace. The vast majority are very low paying jobs.
2) Job growth is not even keeping up with population growth.
Do you get it yet?
Populist_Prole
(5,364 posts)I can't believe that offshoring/outsourcing is still being presented as a win for the US....and with a straight face. The pendulum has begun it's swing...............
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)to become the United States of the 21st Century, thus concentrating wealth in the hands of fewer and fewer people. Eventually there will be 6 Chinese people who will own 1/3 of the world's wealth, and they won't live in China.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)Its the fact that their population will age and they won't have any young workers
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)But that needs to be combined with the effect major pollution will have on those rates, and the number of Chinese newborns whose destination will not be the workforce due to birth defects.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)The end of mass deaths by starvation will always be a good thing in my book. Until you have seen what that death does to people, you really have no base for your arguments.
Really poor people moving into the middle class is not some huge danger for this country and we are not worse off for it.
Goodnight.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)BrentWil
(2,384 posts)I may respond more after work.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)As the difference between the living standards of rich and poor in the underdeveloped countries become less severe, ours is increasingly devastating the fabric of our society.
It should be possible to alleviate the poverty in India and China without increasing poverty here, but that would take a little thought and sacrifice on the part of our wealthiest citizens. So far they have been unwilling to share the losses that their outsourcing and importing have meant for working Americans.
pampango
(24,692 posts)here, but that would take a little thought and sacrifice on the part of our wealthiest citizens. So far they have been unwilling to share the losses that their outsourcing and importing have meant for working Americans."
You are right. And IMHO the way to do that is the way that advanced progressive countries have done it. They do not allow their "wealthiest citizens" to be "unwilling to share the losses" of a globalized economy.
The US' per capita GDP is $46,844. That of the EU is $30,388. Our problem is not that the US does not generate enough wealth for the middle class to prosper, it is that we don't force the "wealthiest citizens" to share the tremendous wealth that our country generates.
European economies generate 30% less wealth per capita than ours does, but their societies and middle classes are much healthier than ours because they distribute that wealth much more equitably than we do. I haven't met any European who is willing to trade their society (with its high/progressive taxes, strong unions, effective safety net, national health care and better education system, but with lower average incomes) for life in the US (with its regressive taxes, weak unions, ineffective safety net, limited national health care, ineffective education system, but with significantly higher average incomes).
It is, as you say, "possible to alleviate the poverty in India and China (and in other poor countries) without increasing it here, but that would take a little thought and sacrifice on the part of our wealthiest citizens." It is already happening in advanced progressive countries.
PETRUS
(3,678 posts)In recent years, Europe's economy has been about as productive as that of the US in terms of output per hour. The difference in per capita GDP is largely due to Europeans choosing to take their productivity gains in additional leisure time, while the US opts for higher income.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)that have increased as poverty decreased. On balance I do believe the good outweighs the bad but I would not call China and India "massive success stories". They have tremendous problems relating to environment, worker saftey, worker rights, wealth inequality, etc. We need to put pressure on them to implement reforms or this situation could get much worse.
pampango
(24,692 posts)encourage global poverty reduction while at the same time promoting employment and income equality at home. To summarize it: Our economic problems are not caused by "others" but by actions that "we" have done to ourselves - repeatedly cutting taxes for the rich, weakening our unions, slashing our safety net, deregulating to the point of absurdity, etc.
Countries that have not cut taxes for the rich, weakened unions, slashed safety nets and recklessly deregulated have weathered the Great Recession relatively much better than Americans have with stronger economies and more equality, even though they trade with "poor" countries at a much higher level than we do.
http://billmoyers.com/episode/on-winner-take-all-politics/
In Europe they explicitly trade more with the Third World as a part of their global development strategy designed to help the poorest. Over the last 20 years it has been successful, as the UN's statistics show, while domestic economies in these progressive countries have continued to provide good jobs and fair pay despite the global recession (which was caused by the US' financial industry, not by poor Third World workers).
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)Our problems our our own problems. They have fixes in our policy. We don't need to demonize poor people in other countries. Trade is a reality because the technology is there, more then anything else.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)So in essence, we know our jobs were good ones.
Like I said, it's nice to know.
But it would be nice if everyone benefited without anyone losing out. I wouldn't ever begrudge people anywhere being lifted out of centuries of dirt poor poverty. It's being forced to be poor in spite of working as hard as you can that's wrong.
treestar
(82,383 posts)then, in that case, we could not fill them all.
The number of jobs grows overall, over time. Otherwise we'd be limited to the number of jobs that existed in 1900, and unemployment would increase with the population increases.
And most of "our jobs" are low pay, look at our jobs in the farm fields here. Our jobs in China are low paying and take place in a country with no rules.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)We're just beginning to get a taste of what third world countries have been experiencing for centuries. We thought it could never happen here. Ha! The joke seems to be on us now.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Industrialization, increased technology, pollution, movement of people into cities.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:59 AM EST
Manufacturing is now underway at Lincolnton Furniture in North Carolina.
By Sopan Deb
Rock Center
The United States may be on the verge of bringing back manufacturing jobs from China.
Harold Sirkin, along with Michael Zinser and Douglas Hohner (all experts from the Boston Consulting Group a leading management consulting firm), says that outsourcing manufacturing to China is not as cheap as it used to be and that the United States is poised to bring back jobs from China. The three consultants first reached this conclusion in a recently published study titled Made in America, Again: Why Manufacturing Will Return to the U.S.
Many companies, especially in the auto and furniture industries, moved plants overseas once China opened its doors to free trade and foreign investment in the last few decades. Labor was cheaper for American companies less than $1 per hour according to the BCG report. Today, labor costs in China have risen dramatically, and shipping and fuel costs have skyrocketed. As Chinas economy has expanded, and China has built new factories all across the country, the demand for workers has risen. As a result, wages are up as new companies compete to hire the best workers.
The tilt is now getting lower, Sirkin says. We think somewhere around 2015 itll look flat and may start to tilt in the U.S. favor at that point in time.
So this form of hysteria was never needed. Instead of looking forward and being innovative, these are the people who whine "where are the jobs?" rather than getting off their duffs and doing something. And if you mention that, you are "un-American."
brentspeak
(18,290 posts)Jobs are not "coming back" to the USA. The headline contradicts the text of the piece, which quotes some hacks at an infamous offshoring consulting group that some unspecified jobs "may" return to the USA -- not that any jobs have actually returned to the USA.
So this form of hysteria was never needed. Instead of looking forward and being innovative, these are the people who whine "where are the jobs?" rather than getting off their duffs and doing something.
"Whine"? I know in the past you've said you are a corporate attorney, but I didn't know you were also Phil Graham.
treestar
(82,383 posts)It is just a personal attack. It does not matter what I am or am not. I am not a corporate attorney, FLOG. How ridiculous.
There is a specific example of the jobs coming back in that article. Nice try to keep people from reading it. The Chinese are now only 15% cheaper to employ. And they are not as productive.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)As long as they have workers living on the factory premises in China, whom they can exploit for 12 hours a day, 6 days a week, and rouse in the middle of the night to keep up with their precious orders, those jobs are not coming back.
treestar
(82,383 posts)And as that article said, the Chinese are getting to be only 15% less costly to employ. At some point it will catch up to the transport costs. Steve Jobs is not the only one who knows anything, and he could be wrong.
newspeak
(4,847 posts)global corporations are exploiting these countries. The argument is that we'll all being doing just swell by leveling out the playing field. But, what really is happening is corporations are moving to these countries for their loose environmental and labor policies. In China, you've got people working up to thirty hours a day, making about 30 cents an hour. Some are brought in from the country and put into dorms sharing with eight people or more. You have laws-up to twelve years in prison-for anyone attempting to form a labor union. There's a reason why some companies have put up nets to catch those wanting to commit suicide.
And those same corporations would love to come back to america, if they could do the same damn thing here. And the repugs and you free traders, are talking up about how total deregulation of those sociopathic companies would allow them to come back and do the same thing to us as they have been doing to other countries.
I don't even call the COC, US, there's nothing american about them. They are just whores for global corporations. They could care less if americans suffer, become slaves or if the environment is contaminated by their global friends. As long as they push the "free market" bullshite and make masses of moolah off the backs of all labor.
limpyhobbler
(8,244 posts)China has made great strides in eliminating extreme poverty, famine, disease, illiteracy. But it was done first under communist dictatorship and then under corporatist-capitalist-communist-dictatorship, or what ever the f*ck they call what they are now. It's nice that they feed everybody but the system is politically repressive in the extreme. And now it looks to me like China is turning into a nation of slaves. I don't like it and I don't want to be complicit in it. I was disgusted by China when I was a kid and they were more communistic, and I'm even more disgusted by it now. Of course the people of china ought not be demonized, but the government deserves it.
India has much more freedom and democracy. Their democracy suffers from bribery and corruption, but whose doesn't. India has made some strides in eliminating famine and hunger, but disease and sanitation are still problems. India is gaining wealth through it's relationship with the US and other economic partners. But unfortunately India suffers from extreme wealth inequality, much more so than in the united states. The income gains of the last 20 years are contributing to a slowly growing middle class. But most Indians are being left out or are falling further into poverty. So what's to demonize? It is what it is.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)However, India is not only gaining wealth because of its relationships. Also of the reasons behind the uneven growth in India is regional issues within India.
China's government has problems... However, it has provided a better environment for its people.
AdHocSolver
(2,561 posts)Your argument is logically comparable to the argument that the American slaves were better off than their hunter and gatherer brethren left behind in Africa because the slaves got free meals and learned a new trade.
You are a little late pitching that corporate swill on this web site.
Populist_Prole
(5,364 posts)Zalatix
(8,994 posts)BrentWil
(2,384 posts)I can't post on DU all day. These arguments presented are nothing I am afraid of. You are posting polls and nonsense links. I just find it silly, not something I won't respond to.
I mean, I may get bored, but that is about it.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)All my links were relevant to this discussion and they totally refute you.
Game over, man, you've got nothin'.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)to slaves. They are the largest democracy in the world by population, you know. I know a few. They seem to think they have problems (corruption), but things are better.
AdHocSolver
(2,561 posts)I never compared the people of India to slaves. I compared the attitude of corporate exploiters to a hypothetical argument that might be put forward by a slave owner to excuse his exploitation of Africans by implying that his "slaves" were better off under his "care" than they were back in Africa.
I am well aware of India's proud democratic tradition going back to 1947 when India became independent of British colonial rule.
Since implementing their constitution in 1950, India has done much to improve the lot of the lower classes of their traditional caste system.
I am also acquainted with an Indian family living in the US. Very nice people, very intelligent, and tending liberal.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)That is demeaning and it is sad you would not see the problem.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)That sounds like "I am not racist, I know lots of black people.... very nice and intelligence people"
Just saying
newspeak
(4,847 posts)had more time to create and rest. Slaves work and work and work, usually getting little reward for their hard labor.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)IN FACT, it was very much the opposite.
Leopolds Ghost
(12,875 posts)Industrial Revolution anypony? I guess the way that shook out in the US, India, China was the best of all possible worlds.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)I am praising the elimination of extreme poverty.
Government has an important role to play in the world economy and I am not an advocate of "Laissez-Faire" capitalism. The sort of extreme wealth inequality that we see in the US is something that government should have a role in correcting.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)This is why you are getting SLAMMED here so hard.
Do you get it yet???
SomethingFishy
(4,876 posts)When I see the word "China" this is the image that pops into my head:
Yeah they deserve high praise for stamping out poverty... and free thought... dissension.. access... Democracy...
Oh and India? Yeah there's a model society.
How's 4 years in prison for a poppy seed stuck to your shoe? Or for an amount of Pot, stuck to your shoe, weighing less than a grain of sugar.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-512815/Briton-jailed-years-Dubai-customs-cannabis-weighing-grain-sugar-shoe.html
We could eliminate poverty in the US in one year, but we would rather kill people than feed them.
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)But credit should be given where it is deserved.