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Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:07 AM

Both China and India are Amazing Stories of Poverty Reduction... We Should Stop Demonizing Them

I would direct you all to the UN's The Millennium Development Goals Report (2011)


http://www.beta.undp.org/content/dam/undp/library/MDG/english/MDG_Report_2011_EN.pdf


"The fastest growth and sharpest reductions in poverty continue to be found in Eastern Asia, particularly in China, where the poverty rate is expected to fall to under 5 per cent by 2015. India has also contributed to the large reduction in global poverty. In that country, poverty rates are projected to fall from 51 per cent
in 1990 to about 22 per cent in 2015. In China
and India combined, the number of people living in extreme poverty between 1990 and 2005 declined by about 455 million, and an additional 320 million people are expected to join their ranks by 2015. Projections for sub-Saharan Africa are slightly more upbeat than previously estimated. Based on recent economic growth performance and forecasted trends, the extreme poverty rate in the region is expected to fall below 36 per cent."

These countries are massive success stories of the modern era. China, with its economic reforms in '79 and India with its reforms in the 90s have reduced had amazing results reducing extreme property. Instead of demonizing them, we should understand that it is world economy and that we have to work together. The world is not hopeless and people in both China and India escaping property that few in this country could understand is not a bad thing.

The economy changes and jobs move. However, jobs are also created and innovation still happens. We as a country have a lot going for us. We can solve our problems and compete globally. In fact, we are currently solving our problems and we are very competitive globally. We don't have to keep demonizing other societies that "take our jobs."


I should make a note that the UN is measuring "absolute poverty here" THey define that as "a condition characterised by severe deprivation of basic human needs, including food, safe drinking water, sanitation facilities, health, shelter, education and information. It depends not only on income but also on access to services." It translate into living off of less then $1.25 a day. The level of poverty in India is far different then any type of poverty here.

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Reply Both China and India are Amazing Stories of Poverty Reduction... We Should Stop Demonizing Them (Original post)
BrentWil Jan 2012 OP
msongs Jan 2012 #1
BrentWil Jan 2012 #3
Zalatix Jan 2012 #11
BrentWil Jan 2012 #14
Zalatix Jan 2012 #19
BrentWil Jan 2012 #22
Zalatix Jan 2012 #27
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treestar Jan 2012 #105
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BrentWil Jan 2012 #133
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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:17 AM

1. their rates go down and ours go up - while our corporate masters get ever richer nt

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Response to msongs (Reply #1)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:22 AM

3. That is actually not true...

Rates, as judged by UN standards, are still very, very, very low. They are measuring "absolute poverty" here. What they are measure is the percentage of the population that lives on less then $1.25 a day. That is the number they come to to take care of basic needs.

What has gone up in the US is relative poverty.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #3)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:29 AM

11. Half the babies born in America are on WIC and more Americans have trouble finding food than Chinese

 

people.



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Response to Zalatix (Reply #11)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:34 AM

14. If you are on WIC, you are getting more then $1.25 a day to live on

The UN is measuring people that don't have "WIC" These are people that literally live off of less then $1.25 a day. That includes any government programs or charity.

If you sit back, think about that for a second, it should amaze you.

I am not saying we shouldn't do more for the poor here. We should. But the poor here, do not compare to the property in other places.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #14)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:43 AM

19. The only way you will help America's poor is to bring American jobs back.

 

Anything else you propose is simply sacrificing their lives.




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Response to Zalatix (Reply #19)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:45 AM

22. Well, "jobs" are coming back...

They are simple different types of jobs. We have to get the American worker ready for them.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #22)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:47 AM

27. The jobs coming back are very few, and most are very low paying. Your argument is dying here.

 

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #27)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:01 AM

37. Those "jobs" aren't coming back...

However, new jobs will and can be created. The problem with the labor market right now is that skill sets don't match up with the jobs that are there. There are actually companies that are struggling to find workers right now.

Even with all that said, unemployment is falling and things are getting better.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #37)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:11 AM

45. Wrong, wrong, factually wrong, and wrong again. Your math is way, way off.

 

The "new" jobs being created are very few.

Run the math. Count up every last company that says they are struggling to find workers. Count up the number of jobs. Now count up the number of unemployed. Compare the two. Even if every last American got every marketable skill known to humanity, most unemployed would stay unemployed. Do the math.

Look at our job growth. Compare it to the growth of our working class population. The former is STILL the smaller number. That means we're putting more workers on the market than there are jobs being created. And MOST of those jobs are low paying.

The jobs that are being created, what few they are, are demanding higher productivity from workers. They are, as a result, leading to a reduction in the need for workers. You want to see what this has led to, over the last few decades? Here ya go.
[img][/img]

The "skillsets mismatch" argument is a LIE. We have tons of engineers, especially computer engineers, who are out of jobs. Here's an exercise for you - look at the jobs where companies are saying they're "struggling" - notice how they're not PAYING more? If you have a shortage of workers, the pay always goes up. The pay ain't going up.

Finally, unemployment isn't falling - people are simply running out of benefits and are not being counted.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #45)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:16 AM

48. Demand for workers will always go down..

That is reality. It takes less to produce more. Go talk to the workers in the 1920s. Same problem.

The means that it is solved is to figure out additional shit people will buy. See Computers, Cars, TVs, etc. New markets are created and wealth is generated.

That is the way that it is always solved. And it ends in a better standard of living for us all.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #48)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:23 AM

57. I call bullshit. Show us the new markets. Show us the jobs. Our standard of living is plummeting.

 

More people are losing their jobs, going homeless, and now more Americans have trouble finding food than the Chinese! CITE!!! --> http://www.gallup.com/poll/150068/chinese-struggling-less-americans-afford-basics.aspx

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #57)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:34 AM

68. Here...

http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/CES0000000001?output_view=net_1mth

And no shit, if you are coming from having less shit, you are going to think less shit is basic. That is all your "poll" basically says. America's are going to consider more things basic while people in China are going to consider more things basic. THey are polling apples and oranges.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #68)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:49 AM

85. Total avoidance of my argument. Because at this point you've got nothin' left.

 

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #85)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 08:52 AM

97. Said poster is a free trade advocate.

Remember him from DU2. Sad.

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Response to HughBeaumont (Reply #97)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 10:25 AM

105. Why is it that your side of the argument

Always reduces itself to personal attacks?

What is it about this issue that reduces certain people to utter hysteria?

Convince the Chinese. Even make the attempt. What are you going to say to them?

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Response to treestar (Reply #105)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 10:48 AM

108. Come live in Northeast Ohio, specifically from 1975-present, and you'll see why.

It's hardly "hysteria". The "Rust Belt" suffered tremendously as a result of offshoring; not just in plant closure, but depletion of the secondary businesses that depended on the living wage incomes of those workers.

"Free Trade advocate" is hardly a personal attack for some, who wear it proudly on their sleeves.

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Response to HughBeaumont (Reply #108)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 11:24 AM

109. That's a label

Now meant to sound "evil."

No, one does not have to be "free trade advocate" to question the necessity of this hysteria, or whether there is a scapegoat here.

What of people whose companies are still functioning due to outsourcing? Ask them if they should give up their jobs?

This is allowing the divide and conquer theme, thinking that "the Chinese" are easy to demonize and that no one will give a crap about them.

We need to unionize internationally, not demonize the "other" workers. We used to allow that within the US, now people are falling for this same thing but figuring they can easily promote hate of foreigners.

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Response to treestar (Reply #109)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 11:43 AM

110. Point to where anyone's demonizing the workers. I'm certainly not.

I've seen Manufacturing Landscapes. The workers put up with brutal hours, stringent QA checks, militarized cordoning in groups, pollution, e-waste, etc. . . . all for the privilege of living as a slave. We actually feel sorry for the workers. It's the executives on both sides of the fence that need to be taken to task; not only for shifting labor overseas to make a greater buck, but advocating slavery to the nations they shift the work to.

Nobody's "demonizing" workers. We're demonizing the practice itself, which has brought more hardship to every nation involved while inflating the coffers of the overlords.

There's also this buying into the logic of the NEED to offshore labor. We're talking the differences between mere "profit" and "ever-competitive Mega Profit". A system that depends on perpetual wealth, growth, resources, education, etc in a world where none of that exists . . . well, I don't need to tell you how that's going to end.

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Response to treestar (Reply #105)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 12:25 PM

112. You still don't get it - America is rebelling against your point of view.

 

We see through these nonsense arguments.

What we're going to say to China is, no more of this!

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #112)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 08:19 PM

133. You are... I think the President just passed a free trade agreement with...

South Korea, Panama and Colombia...


http://content.usatoday.com/communities/theoval/post/2011/10/obama-signs-free-trade-bills/1

I think your arguments against it are unfounded. However, even if they weren't, "rebelling" is a little strong of a word.

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Response to treestar (Reply #105)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 12:30 PM

114. "Said poster is a free trade advocate" is not a personal attack, it is the truth.

 

Of course I can see why you think "free trade advocate" is an insult, because it is a stupid position to take.

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Response to treestar (Reply #105)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 02:02 AM

158. I'd lean toward saying good luck selling your crap with a 10,000 tariff.

and no I don't care about their loan money or providing security for their commerce.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #85)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 08:15 PM

132. What are you talking about...

Using POLLING data is no means to measure this. You are polling what people think. Of COURSE people are going to think things are better in China because things SUCKED before. OF COURSE people are going to think things are worse in the US, because we are in an economic downturn. How does a gallup poll prove anything besides a measurement of what people think in two different societies.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #132)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 08:54 PM

146. By 2015 there won't be enough pro-offshoring people left in America to fill a phone booth.

 

And you can take that right to the bank.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #48)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 08:44 PM

144. That is not true. When 8-hour workday was introduced demand for workers went up.

 

There is nothing easier than increasing demand for workers - just legislate 6-hour workday and 4-day
work week. Problem solved.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #14)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:47 AM

26. $1.25/day goes a lot further some places than it does in the US.

Not to blunt the hardships of life around much of the world, but straight dollar figures really aren't comparable between the first and third world.

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Response to Saving Hawaii (Reply #26)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:59 AM

35. You can play with the relative numbers some...

The measurements are never prefect. You can always rework how you measure absolute poverty. The problem with reworking the numbers is that, it just becomes more difficult because relative purchasing power does vary a lot even within a country.

While I am a social scientist at heart and love measurments , I have seen poverty in both the United States and India. There really is no comparison. While $1.25 does buy more in different places, the social welfare net in this country does cover a much higher figure then $1.25 a day. Even adjusted for relative purchasing power, poverty in India is on another scale. I am again not saying that we shouldn't be doing more. We need to build a bigger middle class. The problem with our economy is on the demand side and the best means to solve that is to bring people into a middle class. We have lots of work to do, but India moving in the right direction is not a bad thing.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #35)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:00 AM

36. Let's get this straight. China and India are free to get out of poverty. They're NOT free

 

to drag us down in the process.

Do you get it yet?

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #36)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:03 AM

39. I don't even understand what that means...

I am saying that it isn't a zero sum game. China and India gaining a middle class and getting people out of living under $1.25 a day is not what is hurting or hurt our economy. In fact, it is a good thing.

When people make more then $1.25 a day, we can sell them things.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #39)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:21 AM

53. It's not a zero sum game. It's a negative sum game. If you disagree then please show

 

where more jobs have come to America as a result of trade than have left.

And unless we become poorer than China and India we will NEVER, EVER export more than we import to them.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #53)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:27 AM

60. Job creation numbers since..

Job creation number since Oct 2010 have always been positive.

http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/ces0000000001?output_view=net_1mth

We still import more then we export. Where did those jobs come from?

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #60)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:38 AM

73. 2 things wrong with your argument: 1) Job growth isn't matching population growth, and

 

2) most of those jobs you mention are very low paying jobs.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/26/recoverys-jobs-pay-less-t_n_909515.html

Look, guy, you're totally surrounded here by people who see right through your arguments. Ever wonder why almost no one agrees with you?

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #73)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 08:21 PM

134. Depends what sort of job,

However, some jobs will pay less. Here the government has a role to play. I think something like a reverse income tax is something we should advocate.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #134)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 08:42 PM

143. Correction: MOST new jobs created pay very little.

 

Do you get it yet?

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #143)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 11:25 PM

150. Yes.. we have to follow policies that help the American worker..

One of those policies is not isolation. We are coming out of a recession. It is sort of expected that most new jobs will pay less, until the employment rate drops further and the labor market becomes tight.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #150)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 01:39 AM

157. Tariffs is not isolationism. Otherwise China is isolationist. Do you get it yet?

 

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #157)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 08:32 PM

169. They are a degree of it..

And have been greatly reduced over the years. Therefore, we are moving away fro isolation.

The problem (problem in your point of view at least) is technology, not tariffs. That is the real driving force, now.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #39)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 09:40 AM

162. "When people make more then $1.25 a day, we can sell them things. "

What things can we sell them? We barely make anything here at all anymore. What are we going to do, take the cheap goods we buy from them now and sell them back to them at a profit? Good luck with that one.

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Response to eShirl (Reply #162)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 12:14 AM

170. People will and are making more then $1.25 a day.. this is just a measurement for people

escaping poverty.

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Response to Saving Hawaii (Reply #26)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 05:15 PM

124. Exactly

Homeless people in the US, probably gather at least that over the course of the day. Yet, here they are still starving, lack shelter, and other basic necessities.

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Response to loyalsister (Reply #124)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 08:22 PM

135. Actual deaths from starvation are rare...

I would challenge you to find any reported in the news.

That is not the case in other countries, where famine is still a real threat.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #135)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 10:26 PM

149. I realize that

My point is that it is relative. Poverty in the US compared to poverty in other nations is apples and oranges.
Some would say that poverty in the US would be a live of luxury elsewhere. Having a few deaths from starvation or health problems aggravated by malnutrition is the American version of extreme poverty. $1.25 goes a lot farther in India and China than it does here. That does not make any of those conditions justifiable.
My opinion is that we should be able to have a better quality of life for less money but our priorities are screwed up. I'm glad that there are places that are making some progress.

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Response to loyalsister (Reply #149)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 11:28 PM

151. That is actually my point

Absolute poverty in other countries decreasing is not a bad thing... While we have things to fix, there is no need to demonize societies that are taking steps forward.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #14)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 05:50 AM

91. We can't buy as much for $1.25 as you can in an underdeveloped country.

Much of the money we pay for food is for the packaging and the transportation of the food. In less developed countries, people eat differently than we do. They buy more in markets from farmers and less from corporate supermarkets.

If you live in an American city, you either hook your sewer line into the city sewers and pay high water and sewage charges or your house is declared uninhabitable and you are not permitted to live there.

Most Americans who are poor live in cities where they can't just dig wells for their water.

If you want to work in the US, you have to bathe and wear fresh clothing.

Many homeless people in the US live on close to $1.25 per day. But Americans look away and don't realize how little those people with the carts full of bottles get for all their work collecting recyclables.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #3)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:33 PM

120. Wrong, Mr. Globalist

What's "gone up" in the US is the number of Americans below the officially designated poverty line.

It's "relative" to our own standards of living--which have declined.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:21 AM

2. I most certainly will not.....

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Response to ingac70 (Reply #2)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:27 AM

7. I hear that. +1000 And here's one about China.

 

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Response to ingac70 (Reply #2)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:27 AM

8. The video talks about how 70% of India's child labourers are employed in agriculture.

I'm certain that's an obvious result of free trade. Back in the good old days you didn't have a job 'til you turned 18 and graduated from high school.

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Response to Saving Hawaii (Reply #8)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:30 AM

12. Hopefully that is sarcasm...

Much of India used child labor on farms for centuries.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #12)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:31 AM

13. "Much of India used child labor on farms for centuries." Much of the world really.

Can you name any places that didn't?

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Response to Saving Hawaii (Reply #13)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:35 AM

15. No. That was my point.

Just making sure.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #15)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:45 AM

23. Maybe India should employ all their 9 year-olds as janitors like Newt Gingrich suggested.

Then they'll all become rich American citizens who don't even care about the benjamins falling out of their overloaded pockets.

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Response to Saving Hawaii (Reply #23)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:48 AM

29. Or create a system in which they educate all their citizens... one or the other

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #29)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:10 AM

44. I'm certain that if they give all their 9 year-olds janitorial jobs, they'll all become millionaires

like Newt.

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Response to Saving Hawaii (Reply #23)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:02 AM

38. I'm sure pro-offshoring free traders will find a way to offshore janitorial work while promising us

 

new "jobs" that will never materialize.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #15)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:54 AM

33. Your point? How about reality. Reality is, we are encouraging slavery by offshoring jobs.

 

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #12)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 02:37 AM

159. So what?

So should Americans compete with child labor for wages?

Maybe you think Americans should start putting their own children to work for slave wages--even before they start high school.

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Response to ingac70 (Reply #2)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:28 AM

9. Did I argue that India doesn't have problems?

It certainly does. That doesn't mean it hasn't taken amazing steps forward.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:23 AM

4. ....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16639391

The noise was deafening and air in the factory in northern Gujarat was so thick with cotton dust it was like a snowstorm at night.

Women and girls, some no more than 10 or 11, fed machines with raw cotton picked from the nearby fields.

It is a process known as ginning - one end of a commercial supply chain that ends up as clothes and textiles in high street shops around the world. Globally, annual revenues from the industry are measured in the trillions of dollars.

Many household-name retailers concede they do not know exactly how the cotton they use is farmed and processed. Yet, for years, labour activists here have campaigned for their help.

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Response to ingac70 (Reply #4)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:45 AM

21. And many of those workers will die of "brown lung"

As workers here once did. But so far, in developing countries, workers have had little power to affect these working conditions. I'm sure China is killing a lot of coal miners, too - evil bastards like Don Blankenship would kill more Americans in a heartbeat, if we'd stop Massey Energy from being "bothered" by MSA, OSHA, EPA, and the miner's unions.
But who cares, if we job it out to China, and kill a few score of Chinese a week? We ought to friggin start, before we all devolve to the level of these poor souls.

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Response to Mopar151 (Reply #21)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:58 AM

34. Bingo. Another pro-offshoring thread chokes on its poor logic. n/t

 

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Response to Mopar151 (Reply #21)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:08 AM

42. Do they have problems?

Certainly. We need to work with the world as a whole to solve these problems.

But is it not a good thing that a whole lot of people are not living off less then $1.25 a day?

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #42)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 05:55 AM

92. If they are polluting their environment in order to earn $5.00 per day,

then, No, it is not a good thing.

American companies manufacture in India, China, etc. in part because of the cheap labor, but also because of the lack of environmental laws. Makes it much easier to accumulate the millions.

It would be better if we had wage and environmental laws that were universal and that protected all workers whether in developed or developing countries. We would all be better off.

One of these days, people in India and China will wake up and think back to the time when their air and water were clean and wish they had not industrialized so fast.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #42)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 02:45 AM

160. More importantly

Is that there are a lot of Americans--your countrymen--who are living off $0.00/day.

And many more of your own countryman who are living in abject poverty.

Oh, I'm sorry. I just assumed you were an American.

Maybe I was wrong on that.

Or, maybe you're just another pseudo-American free traitor.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:25 AM

5. Name the jobs created in America by offshoring to India and China, please.

 

When we run out of jobs to give them, they'll plunge right back into poverty.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #5)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:29 AM

10. How do you "run out of jobs"?

You really want to get into desert island economics?

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Response to Saving Hawaii (Reply #10)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:37 AM

16. How do we run out of jobs? Easy. When we become too poor to import goods.

 

FACT: offshoring devalues the dollar. CITE!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=52324

FACT: offshoring increases national debt. CITE!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ian-fletcher/free-trade-agreements_b_1102615.html

Does the devaluing dollar mean less offshoring? YUP! CITE!
http://mises.org/daily/2883

Less offshoring means less jobs for India and China.


Your turn. Show where I am factually wrong. Provide cites.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #16)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:09 AM

43. Did you really just cite Mises? I'll respond in full tomorrow, but I need to get to sleep. /nt

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #5)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:43 AM

18. Well, for India and CHina we export a lot of products...

http://www.ustr.gov/countries-regions/south-central-asia/india

"India was the United States' 17th largest goods export market in 2010.

U.S. goods exports to India in 2010 were $19.2 billion, up 16.9% ($2.8 billion) from 2009, and up 738% from 1994 (the year prior to Uruguay Round). U.S. exports to India account for 1.5% of overall U.S. exports in 2010.

The top exports categories (2-digit HS) in 2010 were: Precious Stones (diamonds and gold) ($4.2 billion), Machinery ($2.7 billion), Electrical Machinery ($1.4 billion), Aircraft ($1.3 billion), and Fertilizers ($1.1 billion).

U.S. exports of agricultural products to India totaled $755 million in 2010. Leading categories include: tree nuts ($244 million), soybean oil ($133 million), pulses ($96 million), and cotton ($69 million).

U.S. exports of private commercial services* (i.e., excluding military and government) to India were $9.9 billion in 2009 (latest data available), 2.1% ($213 million) less than 2008, but 712% greater than 1994 levels. Other private services (education), and travel categories accounted for most of the U.S. exports in 2009."


We also export a lot to China.

https://www.uschina.org/statistics/tradetable.html


Do we CURRENTLY import more then we export? Yes. But that doesn't mean trade doesn't help us. We continue to grow our economy and create jobs with innovation. Simply because they are getting richer doesn't mean we are getting poorer. It isn't a zero sum gain.

If you want a path to real property, cut this nation off from trade. We will suffer, like North Korea is currently suffering.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #18)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:48 AM

28. Trade hurts us more than it helps us. We lose more jobs than we bring in. It's a negative sum game.

 

If we don't cut off trade to India and China our economy will eventually implode.

See my cited facts in Post #16

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #28)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:06 AM

41. Would our country have been better if New York couldn't freely trade with New Jersey?

We, the United States, were the first free trade zone. And it allowed us to grow in wealth and property. Free trade is not a bad thing and no one is "imploding"

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #41)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:23 AM

54. Glad you brought that up.

Your analogy highlights a key difference - trade between NY and NJ is much more "free" than trade between the US and China, or the US and India. It is much easier for labor to move within the US than for labor to move across the globe. In particular, there are legal barriers that prevent more highly trained foreign professionals from coming to practice in the US. This nature of our trade agreements (they are not "free" trade agreements, "free" is a bogus PR term in this case) causes wages for some kind of work to go down while wages for other kinds of work are propped up.

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Response to PETRUS (Reply #54)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:37 AM

71. Free movement of labor is also an important goal, and something to work for NT

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #71)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:44 AM

80. Ohhh nice idea. So Americans should be chasing jobs into places like this

 

Behold your "better than $1.25/hour" world:

[img][/img]

[img][/img]

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1917897,00.html

[img][/img]

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #80)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 05:18 PM

125. +1

Also, so not surprising that you got *crickets* as a response.

This OP sucks sooooooo much ass.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #80)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 09:15 AM

161. No, I want an expanding middle class

However, people that make more then $1.25 a day instead of less is a good thing.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #161)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 12:03 PM

163. You will never get an expanding middle class as long as we outsource jobs. So...

 

Choose. Choose now.

An expanding middle class or jobs going overseas. You cannot have both. Choose one.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #71)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:51 AM

87. Powerful lobbies prevent it.

Professional elites are often politically well-connected and successfully seek protection for themselves while they lobby for trade agreements that pit middle class workers against foreign competition. Free trade in physicians and medical services could save Americans $80 billion to $100 billion a year. This is ten times the estimated benefit of NAFTA.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #18)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:38 AM

72. Bill? Is that you?

 

Holy shit, you haven't just drunk the KoolAid, you've eaten the KoolAid Man..

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Response to pipoman (Reply #72)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:50 AM

86. OMFG I am weak from laughing so hard. That was unbelievably, hilariously harsh.

 

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #18)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 06:05 AM

93. But we import far more from these countries than we export -- even at their cheap labor prices.

And the export and production figures of the US are suspect because we calculate them, as I understand it, based on the value of the finished products, and those finished products can and do contain parts manufactured in other countries.

There can be no denying that Americans overall are poorer than they were 40 years ago. We have not had waves of foreclosures like those we are having now since at least the 1930s.

We will change our trade policies sooner or later. Our current "free trade" policies may be working for India and China, but they are not working for ordinary Americans. If we had tax and welfare policies that compensated American workers for the lost jobs and income, then there would be less resentment. But as long as we reward the rich for creating jobs in China and India, we won't have job creation here -- at least not enough of it.

Just recently, I went into the 99 cents store early in the morning. In the line in front of me was a homeless man with less than a dollar to spend. He was ready to cry because he had enough to pay for a small sack of candy for his breakfast, but did not have enough to pay taxes. Fortunately, he did not have to pay tax. He was so incredibly happy when the cashier told him there would be no tax.

What can you buy for $1.25 in the US? A candy bar, maybe. Maybe a couple of tomatoes. At certain times of the year you can buy more, but really, it is very hard for unemployed Americans right now.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:26 AM

6. nope, India is corrupt with a Huge Gap in Wealth, lack of enforcement of laws

China lacks civil rights, horrible pollution problem.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #6)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:37 AM

17. They have problems...

But instead of demonizing them, can we at least say that it is a good thing that they have less people living off of $1.25 a day?

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #17)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:45 AM

20. Instead you demonize Americans by saying more of us should lose our jobs.

 

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #20)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:46 AM

25. Can you provide a quote where I said that?

I said, China and India becoming richer and bring people out of poverty doesn't hurt the United States. COuld you quote where I said, "more of us should lose our jobs"

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #25)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:52 AM

31. You said, "We don't have to keep demonizing other societies that "take our jobs.""

 

Translation: you wish Americans would shut up and just let our jobs get taken.

Well, guess what, pal, as you can see all around you in this thread, WE ARE NOT SHUTTING UP.

You, sir, are seeing the birth pangs of a revolution against the pro-offshoring argument. America is a powder keg of opposition to your argument and we will not be cowed, we will not be talked down to, we will not be intimidated, and we will not stop until the vampire that is globalism is forced into the light of day where it will perish.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #31)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:12 AM

46. No one is trying to "cower" you... However, you are living in a dream world.

Markets change. The world changes. Change with it or get left behind.

It isn't a bad thing. In fact, on the whole it is a great thing. We benefit, they benefit. It is a win-win for everyone, on a bigger scale. Will there be losers? Certainly. We have to do what we can to provide education and a means of transition. But the world is not returning to 1950.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #46)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:23 AM

55. True, the world is not returning to 1950

For some, it might be returning to 1793, though.



As you said, there will certainly be losers.

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Response to brentspeak (Reply #55)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:33 AM

67. LOL!!!!!! I hear that.

 

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #46)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:32 AM

66. Your arguments are sheer delusion. Especially the "win-win" part. It's been all LOSS for America.

 

And America is about to force the WORLD to stop taking our jobs away.

Because we can. In fact, being over 20% of the world's GDP, we can shut the whole world DOWN.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #66)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:35 AM

70. We won't be over 20% of the world's GDP once we do that... NT

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #66)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 07:32 PM

131. Provided you give up any pretense of not being the bad guys.


"We are strong, and we are going to use our strength to ensure that our living standards remain high, even though that forces yours down" - which is what you are advocating - is a perfectly viable position for America to take.

But it's also, clearly, an evil one.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #46)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 09:39 AM

98. All the education in the world isn't going to trump "Cheap" in the eyes of a CEO.

I mean, free trade is great if you think nothing of the consequences that fall on many of this country's workers as a result. What about pending American underemployment? Movement of labor to other nations since the 1970s has yielded nothing but hardship, forclosure and downward mobility to American workers. The visual and economic evidence is overwhelming, you don't need statistics to work that out. Real wages for the middle/working/poor have not risen since 1979.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #17)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:46 AM

24. yes, but i'm not sure how much or where the improvement is

numbers can be misleading with wealthy increasing the wealth and maybe those in middle class getting a little more. but those in extreme poverty not moving anywhere .

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Response to JI7 (Reply #24)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:49 AM

30. The numbers giving or those moving from living on less then $1.25 a day to more then $1.25 a day NT

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #30)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:53 AM

32. You want to see how we're REALLY helping them? See this link.

 

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #32)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:05 AM

40. We have high consumption, so what?

Hell, we are going to need higher consumption to fix our own economy. That is why growing a middle class is so important. Products need buyers.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #40)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:14 AM

47. You totally didn't read the link. I showed IN DETAIL that we're literally KILLING the third world

 

with offshoring.

Read the article. I posted tons of documentation.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #47)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:18 AM

50. We are killing them, besides for the fact a lot of them are now living off of more then $1.25 a day

Direct question. Is that a bad thing? Someone living in China or India on more then $1.25 a day, is that somehow bad?

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #50)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:29 AM

63. When it comes at the expense of our jobs and their environment, YES!!!

 

And we Americans are responsible for doing this to China:

[img][/img]

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #63)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 10:23 AM

104. And that was the U.S. in the 1950s or earlier

A different issue altogether.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #63)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 05:19 PM

126. Aaaaaaand it's *crickets* once again.

How very shocking.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #63)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 08:24 PM

136. Different issue..

That was the US in the 1950s. Different issue but one that has to be dealt with.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #30)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:28 AM

61. Does it matter?

Going from subsistence farming to working in a factory may mean they earn a few cents a day, but are their lives any better?

I say this as the granddaughter of two farmers. My grandparents worked hard dusk to dawn from the time they were children, but they have always been happy. They're still healthy and strong, too.

Will the Chinese workers who move into slave labor camps and do menial tasks like gluing one part in place for 32 hour shifts look back fondly on these days? Will they be healthy, even into their 30s? Many are already sick and injured, with disabilities more common to old age. What will they do when they get older with broken bodies and no skills to care for themselves?

My grandparents built a life and a home, working the land and raising animals. What will these Chinese slaves have to show for all of their hard work? The stuff they make ends up in landfills when Americans get bored with it or it breaks in a year or two.

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Response to girl gone mad (Reply #61)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:31 AM

65. That isn't the only means they are escaping..

And yes, it does matter. Death by starvation sucks. I have seen it. Not very pleasant.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #65)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 03:33 AM

89. Those are the only choices?

Live as a slave or starve?

Whatever.

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Response to girl gone mad (Reply #61)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:41 AM

77. Everything must be monetized, and the number of transactions must increase.

It's the neoliberal way.

You are describing simple poverty, and noting that people can be forced out of that condition into abject poverty.

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Response to girl gone mad (Reply #61)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 10:17 AM

101. It did happen with the US and the west

We had that time in the late 19th century and the early 20th century. Not that it is pleasant, but it is the basis of our lifestyle today.

So I don't feel right condemning others for putting themselves forward into the modern era. I do wish the Chinese had more of a democracy, though. However that may come about as their lifestyle gets better.

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Response to treestar (Reply #101)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 06:32 PM

128. Why are you ALWAYS found siding against the American worker?

 

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:17 AM

49. F@%& THE PRC!!! n/t

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #49)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:19 AM

51. Yeah.. we should go bomb them or something.. that would be cool... hahaha

That was Sarcasm, in case you didn't know

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #51)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:24 AM

58. If you wish to express sarcasm...

...it's easy -

F%@#'em.

You can tell me to stop demonizing the PRC when they stop returning North Koreans, occupying Tibet, and brutalizing their own people.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #58)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:30 AM

64. Yeah, because China was much better off in 1945.. wait, I mean 1929.... wait I mean 1890... wait...

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #64)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:35 AM

69. Yeah, I don't know what you mean either.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #58)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 10:19 AM

102. So you're saying the people in China deserve to suffer because of these political things?

In that case, why don't we in the US deserve to suffer because we bombed Iraq, etc.?

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Response to treestar (Reply #102)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 12:29 PM

113. China can get rich without taking American jobs. Do you get it yet?

 

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #113)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:32 PM

118. How are jobs assigned to a country?

If that's so, we can't steal German or Swedish jobs, right? Or aren't foreigners human?

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Response to treestar (Reply #118)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:37 PM

119. You still, still don't get it. We lose far more jobs than we gain from trade. Why do you deny this?

 

American workers are human, too. Yet we're the ones who suffer the most from "free trade".

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #119)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 04:07 PM

166. How do you assign jobs to a country?

I notice you don't answer the question of where German or Swedish companies set up here. Is that not stealing "Swedish jobs?"

How do you determine which country owns the jobs?

How do you know there aren't Chinese jobs here? There could well be some.

This was a "problem" before we had high unemployment rates, too. As long as the employment rate here is all right, who cares if other countries advance?



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Response to treestar (Reply #166)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 05:26 PM

168. Oh that's easy.

 

If the product is sold here, it must be made here.

Again, other countries are free to advance - but not by taking American jobs.

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Response to treestar (Reply #102)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 03:30 PM

121. Maybe the people living under the PRC want us to stand-up for them?

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:21 AM

52. Who knew that the US Chamber of Commerce had someone posting

talking points on DU?

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Response to brentspeak (Reply #52)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:23 AM

56. ad hominem attacks are always silly...

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #56)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:26 AM

59. How about, "Your arguments are the same that we hear from the US Chamber of Commerce"

 

is that better?

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #59)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:28 AM

62. How about, I like less people in the World living off less then $1.25 a day...

That is my base argument... the US Chamber of Commerce makes a big deal about global poverty?

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #62)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:40 AM

75. How about, let them do it without taking our jobs from us?

 

Do you get it yet?

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #75)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:42 AM

79. Jobs move and jobs are created..

It is the nature of the World. you might as well be bitching about jobs going from Michigan to South Carolina. The world changes and workers have to change with it.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #79)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:47 AM

81. You're wrong for the 100th time. Jobs move out of the USA more than they are created.

 

And jobs moving from Michigan to South Carolina is not even in the same world as jobs moving from the US to China.

Your arguments are not just wrong, they are scary wrong.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #81)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 11:29 PM

152. Why is the US economy now creating jobs?

What magic made these jobs appear?

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #152)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 01:37 AM

156. For the thousandth time, I'll re-explain this to you, PLEASE pay attention

 

1) Most of the jobs being created pay less than the jobs they replace. The vast majority are very low paying jobs.
2) Job growth is not even keeping up with population growth.

Do you get it yet?

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #59)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:41 AM

76. That's exactly what I thought too

I can't believe that offshoring/outsourcing is still being presented as a win for the US....and with a straight face. The pendulum has begun it's swing...............

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Response to Populist_Prole (Reply #76)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:48 AM

84. Brent is finding out the hard way that nobody's buying that "offshoring = win for America" bullshit

 

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:38 AM

74. China's population will peak and start to shrink due to their disregard for pollution in an attempt

 

to become the United States of the 21st Century, thus concentrating wealth in the hands of fewer and fewer people. Eventually there will be 6 Chinese people who will own 1/3 of the world's wealth, and they won't live in China.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #74)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:41 AM

78. China's problem isn't that..

Its the fact that their population will age and they won't have any young workers

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #78)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:47 AM

83. Good point. Gender-based abortion will lead to lower birth rates.

 

But that needs to be combined with the effect major pollution will have on those rates, and the number of Chinese newborns whose destination will not be the workforce due to birth defects.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:47 AM

82. Been nice, got to go to bed

The end of mass deaths by starvation will always be a good thing in my book. Until you have seen what that death does to people, you really have no base for your arguments.

Really poor people moving into the middle class is not some huge danger for this country and we are not worse off for it.

Goodnight.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #82)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:54 AM

88. Sorry this thread didn't go the way you planned. It happens to me too, sometimes!

 

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #88)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 09:42 AM

99. Having to go to sleep isn't me saying your arguments are correct or founded

I may respond more after work.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 05:42 AM

90. The problem is that as their poverty decreases, ours increases.

As the difference between the living standards of rich and poor in the underdeveloped countries become less severe, ours is increasingly devastating the fabric of our society.

It should be possible to alleviate the poverty in India and China without increasing poverty here, but that would take a little thought and sacrifice on the part of our wealthiest citizens. So far they have been unwilling to share the losses that their outsourcing and importing have meant for working Americans.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #90)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:02 PM

115. Well said. "It should be possible to alleviate the poverty in India and China without increasing it

here, but that would take a little thought and sacrifice on the part of our wealthiest citizens. So far they have been unwilling to share the losses that their outsourcing and importing have meant for working Americans."

You are right. And IMHO the way to do that is the way that advanced progressive countries have done it. They do not allow their "wealthiest citizens" to be "unwilling to share the losses" of a globalized economy.

The US' per capita GDP is $46,844. That of the EU is $30,388. Our problem is not that the US does not generate enough wealth for the middle class to prosper, it is that we don't force the "wealthiest citizens" to share the tremendous wealth that our country generates.

European economies generate 30% less wealth per capita than ours does, but their societies and middle classes are much healthier than ours because they distribute that wealth much more equitably than we do. I haven't met any European who is willing to trade their society (with its high/progressive taxes, strong unions, effective safety net, national health care and better education system, but with lower average incomes) for life in the US (with its regressive taxes, weak unions, ineffective safety net, limited national health care, ineffective education system, but with significantly higher average incomes).

It is, as you say, "possible to alleviate the poverty in India and China (and in other poor countries) without increasing it here, but that would take a little thought and sacrifice on the part of our wealthiest citizens." It is already happening in advanced progressive countries.

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Response to pampango (Reply #115)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:28 PM

117. Another difference.

In recent years, Europe's economy has been about as productive as that of the US in terms of output per hour. The difference in per capita GDP is largely due to Europeans choosing to take their productivity gains in additional leisure time, while the US opts for higher income.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 07:37 AM

94. This is good news but clearly there are other associated problems..

that have increased as poverty decreased. On balance I do believe the good outweighs the bad but I would not call China and India "massive success stories". They have tremendous problems relating to environment, worker saftey, worker rights, wealth inequality, etc. We need to put pressure on them to implement reforms or this situation could get much worse.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 08:37 AM

95. Bookmarked. Bil Moyers had a great show recently on how progressive countries

encourage global poverty reduction while at the same time promoting employment and income equality at home. To summarize it: Our economic problems are not caused by "others" but by actions that "we" have done to ourselves - repeatedly cutting taxes for the rich, weakening our unions, slashing our safety net, deregulating to the point of absurdity, etc.

Countries that have not cut taxes for the rich, weakened unions, slashed safety nets and recklessly deregulated have weathered the Great Recession relatively much better than Americans have with stronger economies and more equality, even though they trade with "poor" countries at a much higher level than we do.

http://billmoyers.com/episode/on-winner-take-all-politics/

In Europe they explicitly trade more with the Third World as a part of their global development strategy designed to help the poorest. Over the last 20 years it has been successful, as the UN's statistics show, while domestic economies in these progressive countries have continued to provide good jobs and fair pay despite the global recession (which was caused by the US' financial industry, not by poor Third World workers).



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Response to pampango (Reply #95)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 09:45 AM

100. I would agree...

Our problems our our own problems. They have fixes in our policy. We don't need to demonize poor people in other countries. Trade is a reality because the technology is there, more then anything else.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 08:44 AM

96. It's nice to know someone is benefitting by doing what used to be our jobs

So in essence, we know our jobs were good ones.

Like I said, it's nice to know.

But it would be nice if everyone benefited without anyone losing out. I wouldn't ever begrudge people anywhere being lifted out of centuries of dirt poor poverty. It's being forced to be poor in spite of working as hard as you can that's wrong.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #96)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 10:22 AM

103. In fairness, if they were all "our jobs"

then, in that case, we could not fill them all.

The number of jobs grows overall, over time. Otherwise we'd be limited to the number of jobs that existed in 1900, and unemployment would increase with the population increases.

And most of "our jobs" are low pay, look at our jobs in the farm fields here. Our jobs in China are low paying and take place in a country with no rules.

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Response to treestar (Reply #103)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 08:58 PM

147. Yeah, the people get screwed everywhere.

We're just beginning to get a taste of what third world countries have been experiencing for centuries. We thought it could never happen here. Ha! The joke seems to be on us now.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #147)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 04:04 PM

165. Not really, the third world countries are getting a taste of what we did in the early 20th century

Industrialization, increased technology, pollution, movement of people into cities.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 10:28 AM

106. And jobs are starting to come back anyway

http://rockcenter.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/01/14/10156162-made-in-america-trend-against-outsourcing-brings-jobs-back-from-china

Made in America: Trend against outsourcing brings jobs back from China
Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:59 AM EST

Manufacturing is now underway at Lincolnton Furniture in North Carolina.
By Sopan Deb
Rock Center

The United States may be on the verge of bringing back manufacturing jobs from China.

Harold Sirkin, along with Michael Zinser and Douglas Hohner (all experts from the Boston Consulting Group – a leading management consulting firm), says that outsourcing manufacturing to China is not as cheap as it used to be and that the United States is poised to bring back jobs from China. The three consultants first reached this conclusion in a recently published study titled “Made in America, Again: Why Manufacturing Will Return to the U.S.”

Many companies, especially in the auto and furniture industries, moved plants overseas once China opened its doors to free trade and foreign investment in the last few decades. Labor was cheaper for American companies – less than $1 per hour according to the BCG report. Today, labor costs in China have risen dramatically, and shipping and fuel costs have skyrocketed. As China’s economy has expanded, and China has built new factories all across the country, the demand for workers has risen. As a result, wages are up as new companies compete to hire the best workers.

“The tilt is now getting lower,” Sirkin says. “We think somewhere around 2015 it’ll look flat and may start to tilt in the U.S. favor at that point in time.”



So this form of hysteria was never needed. Instead of looking forward and being innovative, these are the people who whine "where are the jobs?" rather than getting off their duffs and doing something. And if you mention that, you are "un-American."

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Response to treestar (Reply #106)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 12:11 PM

111. Contrary to the economic propaganda piece you link to

Jobs are not "coming back" to the USA. The headline contradicts the text of the piece, which quotes some hacks at an infamous offshoring consulting group that some unspecified jobs "may" return to the USA -- not that any jobs have actually returned to the USA.


So this form of hysteria was never needed. Instead of looking forward and being innovative, these are the people who whine "where are the jobs?" rather than getting off their duffs and doing something.


"Whine"? I know in the past you've said you are a corporate attorney, but I didn't know you were also Phil Graham.

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Response to brentspeak (Reply #111)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:26 PM

116. You ought to be deleted for the last line

It is just a personal attack. It does not matter what I am or am not. I am not a corporate attorney, FLOG. How ridiculous.

There is a specific example of the jobs coming back in that article. Nice try to keep people from reading it. The Chinese are now only 15% cheaper to employ. And they are not as productive.

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Response to treestar (Reply #106)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 05:23 PM

127. Apple's Jobs to Obama: "jobs aren't coming back" to U.S.

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20120123/ARTICLE/301239999

As long as they have workers living on the factory premises in China, whom they can exploit for 12 hours a day, 6 days a week, and rouse in the middle of the night to keep up with their precious orders, those jobs are not coming back.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #127)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 04:09 PM

167. Someday that won't be the case

And as that article said, the Chinese are getting to be only 15% less costly to employ. At some point it will catch up to the transport costs. Steve Jobs is not the only one who knows anything, and he could be wrong.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 10:40 AM

107. I've heard this BS over ten years ago, coming from a friend who is RW

global corporations are exploiting these countries. The argument is that we'll all being doing just swell by leveling out the playing field. But, what really is happening is corporations are moving to these countries for their loose environmental and labor policies. In China, you've got people working up to thirty hours a day, making about 30 cents an hour. Some are brought in from the country and put into dorms sharing with eight people or more. You have laws-up to twelve years in prison-for anyone attempting to form a labor union. There's a reason why some companies have put up nets to catch those wanting to commit suicide.

And those same corporations would love to come back to america, if they could do the same damn thing here. And the repugs and you free traders, are talking up about how total deregulation of those sociopathic companies would allow them to come back and do the same thing to us as they have been doing to other countries.

I don't even call the COC, US, there's nothing american about them. They are just whores for global corporations. They could care less if americans suffer, become slaves or if the environment is contaminated by their global friends. As long as they push the "free market" bullshite and make masses of moolah off the backs of all labor.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 04:16 PM

122. China and India are separate cases that shouldn't be lumped together.

China has made great strides in eliminating extreme poverty, famine, disease, illiteracy. But it was done first under communist dictatorship and then under corporatist-capitalist-communist-dictatorship, or what ever the f*ck they call what they are now. It's nice that they feed everybody but the system is politically repressive in the extreme. And now it looks to me like China is turning into a nation of slaves. I don't like it and I don't want to be complicit in it. I was disgusted by China when I was a kid and they were more communistic, and I'm even more disgusted by it now. Of course the people of china ought not be demonized, but the government deserves it.

India has much more freedom and democracy. Their democracy suffers from bribery and corruption, but whose doesn't. India has made some strides in eliminating famine and hunger, but disease and sanitation are still problems. India is gaining wealth through it's relationship with the US and other economic partners. But unfortunately India suffers from extreme wealth inequality, much more so than in the united states. The income gains of the last 20 years are contributing to a slowly growing middle class. But most Indians are being left out or are falling further into poverty. So what's to demonize? It is what it is.

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Response to limpyhobbler (Reply #122)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 08:39 PM

140. Of course they aren't the same..

However, India is not only gaining wealth because of its relationships. Also of the reasons behind the uneven growth in India is regional issues within India.

China's government has problems... However, it has provided a better environment for its people.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 05:09 PM

123. Both China and India are Amazing Stories of Corporate Exploitation.

Your argument is logically comparable to the argument that the American slaves were better off than their hunter and gatherer brethren left behind in Africa because the slaves got free meals and learned a new trade.

You are a little late pitching that corporate swill on this web site.

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Response to AdHocSolver (Reply #123)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 07:10 PM

129. Excellent post!

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Response to AdHocSolver (Reply #123)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 07:14 PM

130. Well said. As Redqueen said, your post will get "Crickets!!!" for a response

 

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #130)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 08:29 PM

138. What the hell...

I can't post on DU all day. These arguments presented are nothing I am afraid of. You are posting polls and nonsense links. I just find it silly, not something I won't respond to.


I mean, I may get bored, but that is about it.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #138)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 08:41 PM

141. Nonsense links? Show which links were nonsense. You can't. You absolutely cannot do that.

 

All my links were relevant to this discussion and they totally refute you.

Game over, man, you've got nothin'.

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Response to AdHocSolver (Reply #123)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 08:28 PM

137. Nothing like comparing people from a proud democratic tradition (India)

to slaves. They are the largest democracy in the world by population, you know. I know a few. They seem to think they have problems (corruption), but things are better.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #137)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 10:05 PM

148. You have a unique talent for twisting another person's words to create a straw man.


I never compared the people of India to slaves. I compared the attitude of corporate exploiters to a hypothetical argument that might be put forward by a slave owner to excuse his exploitation of Africans by implying that his "slaves" were better off under his "care" than they were back in Africa.

I am well aware of India's proud democratic tradition going back to 1947 when India became independent of British colonial rule.

Since implementing their constitution in 1950, India has done much to improve the lot of the lower classes of their traditional caste system.

I am also acquainted with an Indian family living in the US. Very nice people, very intelligent, and tending liberal.

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Response to AdHocSolver (Reply #148)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 11:51 PM

154. You are comparing the results of economic reforms done by a democracy to American Slavery...

That is demeaning and it is sad you would not see the problem.

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Response to AdHocSolver (Reply #148)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 12:04 AM

155. I am also acquainted with an Indian family living in the US. Very nice people, very intelligent...

That sounds like "I am not racist, I know lots of black people.... very nice and intelligence people"

Just saying

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Response to AdHocSolver (Reply #123)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 12:21 PM

164. well, at least the hunter-gatherers

had more time to create and rest. Slaves work and work and work, usually getting little reward for their hard labor.

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Response to newspeak (Reply #164)

Fri Jan 27, 2012, 02:14 AM

171. You have very little proof that their life was one of leisure...

IN FACT, it was very much the opposite.

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 08:36 PM

139. Isn't the OP basically praising a return to the Laissez-Faire Capitalism of the late 1800s?

Industrial Revolution anypony? I guess the way that shook out in the US, India, China was the best of all possible worlds.

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Response to Leopolds Ghost (Reply #139)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 08:42 PM

142. No. I am not...

I am praising the elimination of extreme poverty.

Government has an important role to play in the world economy and I am not an advocate of "Laissez-Faire" capitalism. The sort of extreme wealth inequality that we see in the US is something that government should have a role in correcting.

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Response to BrentWil (Reply #142)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 08:46 PM

145. You are praising the elimination of extreme poverty at the expense of American workers

 

This is why you are getting SLAMMED here so hard.

Do you get it yet???

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Response to BrentWil (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 11:40 PM

153. I have kind of an issue with China.

When I see the word "China" this is the image that pops into my head:




Yeah they deserve high praise for stamping out poverty... and free thought... dissension.. access... Democracy...

Oh and India? Yeah there's a model society.

How's 4 years in prison for a poppy seed stuck to your shoe? Or for an amount of Pot, stuck to your shoe, weighing less than a grain of sugar.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-512815/Briton-jailed-years-Dubai-customs-cannabis-weighing-grain-sugar-shoe.html


We could eliminate poverty in the US in one year, but we would rather kill people than feed them.

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Response to SomethingFishy (Reply #153)

Sun Jan 29, 2012, 02:58 AM

172. There are always problems...

But credit should be given where it is deserved.

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