The Love of Guns Trumping The Love of Humanity

[rbrnmw]

Making any and every lame excuse they can unearth just to hold onto their toys I am very disappointed but very hopeful that the tide is turning and a majority of Americans are seeing the error of our ways. Most of us want to live in peace and harmony loving one another.

[OneGrassRoot]

1. self-delete to avoid confusion. :) n/t

[Puzzledtraveller]

5. But there's a whole bunch on DU supporting 2A rights

But you're post seems to want to portray any supporter as a right wing christian fundie, am I wrong? Just curious, and I do not own any guns myself.

[OneGrassRoot]

6. You're so right...(w/edit)

It was more a message for lurkers, not progressives.

I know MANY people read DU even if they don't join or interact.

I created an OP of its own instead.

[a geek named Bob]

2. nice mom and apple pie speech n/t

[Fresh_Start]

3. The gun lovers put their own interests above the interest of society.

With 30,000 deaths and over 100,000 injuries by guns per year, its clear guns are not in the best interest of society.
Read the news headlines, guns are not in the interest of society.
Its not even in the interest of their families, since it is far more likely that someone in the family will be killed with the gun, than that they will be used to kill someone attacking the family.
Women in particular should shun men with gun fetishes.
Those women are 5x more likely to be killed than women in households without gun ownership.

[sasha031]

27. ++++1

[Dems to Win]

38. Damn Straight. Selfish bastards.

[Blue Owl]

4. "And on earth, piece; bad will towards men" -- Merry Xmas from the NRA

[villager]

7. That's part of the sickness of the gun lover -- worship of the killing object trumps all else.

n/t

[a geek named Bob]

8. sigh...

hunting for food and use for self defense is worship?

[villager]

9. Not what we're talking about, Geek Bob

As you well know.

[a geek named Bob]

11. actually,

I wasn't sure...

NONE of the firearms owners that I know have weapons that would fall under the AWB.

[villager]

13. Then hopefully they're capable of conversation on necessary safety regulations

n/t

[a geek named Bob]

17. They seem to be...

All of us have vaults w/ biometric locks (of course, I added the same to one of my labs...)

[Lizzie Poppet]

18. I honestly think most are.

So, I presume, are most gun control proponents. Problems arise when people on either side resort to sweeping generalizations, insulting depictions, and outright vilification of the other side. That kind of bullshit makes any useful dialogue impossible.

[villager]

41. So then pro-gunners will quit villifying even the mildest, most reasonable proposals? For a change?

Hopefully, this time, maybe so.

[Lizzie Poppet]

42. The extremists? No.

The rest of us? Yes. Same thing on the other side: the extremists will still insist on depicting all gun owners as potential psychopaths with fetishism issues who don't care about murder victims.

Hopefully the actual adults can have a real conversation and get something done.

[villager]

45. The problem is, the extremists *are* the mainstream on the gun proliferation side.

And thus, even the most reasonable gun control/purchasing/licensing provisions were routinely shouted down, scorned, etc.

As a result -- twenty dead kids, thanks to the "mainstream" of the gun proliferation side.

I await to see if there's really a changed tune, now.

[Lizzie Poppet]

46. We're going to have to agree to disagree on that point.

That has not remotely been my experience.

Regardless, I think we can both hope that the reasonable, genuinely effective measures come about.

[villager]

47. It's been entirely my experience. And when you look at how the NRA has driven gun policy

... the experience of the rest of the nation, too.

But I guess that's part of our disagreement.

Note: Effective measures actually mean guns will be harder to get than they are now.

[Lizzie Poppet]

48. No use for the NRA, either.

Might as well go ahead and declare itself an arm of the RNC...

[villager]

50. Well there's our first main point of agreement!

Too damn bad they've been allowed to dictate gun policy in this country.

[tblue]

28. Contributes to the culture.

And that's a lame excuse for supporting the manufacturers of death. I don't care about anyone's personal desire. Children are dying because of it. What part of that is so hard to understand?

[a geek named Bob]

34. sigh... yet again...

And that's a lame excuse for supporting the manufacturers of death.

wanting to be self reliant is a lame excuse?
"manufacturers of death"... so are are knife makers

I don't care about anyone's personal desire.

Because your cause is FAR more important than individual rights...

Children are dying because of it.

in that case, why don't we lock up the crazies?

What part of that is so hard to understand?

I understand you are engaging in bombastic rhetoric.

[Lizzie Poppet]

10. false dichotomy.

But hey, if it helps you through this difficult time to dehumanize and vilify millions of Americans, then go for it.

[a geek named Bob]

12. +1

[villager]

14. More like "astute observation," if we're talking about the OP

n/t

[Lizzie Poppet]

16. Nope.

It's in fact a textbook example of false dichotomy.

[Zoeisright]

19. You're fucking wrong.

Anyone who is stupid enough to buy MORE guns in the fact of that cold-blooded massacre is criminally insane.

[Lizzie Poppet]

22. No, I'm actually pretty good at fucking.

No complaints, anyway.

As for whether or not I've correctly identified a false dichotomy, let's just say that the opinion of someone who blunders in and offers a nice little combination of personal insult, straw man argument, appeal-to-emotion, and amateur psychoanalysis is not exactly one to value.

[hifiguy]

23. How many guns are enough"

A human being can only fire two at a time. So what's the need for dozens of weapons?

[Lizzie Poppet]

25. Can't tell you.

I'm not a collector, nor do I see the need for an "arsenal." I have five firearms, each for a very different purpose, most of them target shooting, two for self-defense (one a small carry pistol, one for home). I consider that to be a "lot," at least for my needs.

That said, I'm a bit uncomfortable with the overall idea of regulating on the basis of "need" in a free society. I'm not saying there shouldn't be exceptions, but it's something to consider very, very carefully before doing.

BTW, I suspect we share a hobby (audio...).

[ManiacJoe]

26. Right tool for the job.

Different guns have different abilities and limitations.

Why to folks own both a minivan and a pickup truck? One is good for moving people, the other good for moving large or heavy objects. Use the right tool for the job.

[hifiguy]

31. I'm not even going to go so far as to disagree with Lizzie's post

above. And I have never owned a firearm in my life. I've known people who hunt - and I have no particular objection to people who eat what they hunt - and even I know you don't generally use the same kind of weapon for hunting birds and deer, and target-shooting weapons are another class beyond that. People who live in isolated areas and have animals need to vanquish predators on occasion. All of that I get. What I do not understand are the people who feel compelled to have gigantic arsenals of dozens of weapons and tens of thousands of rounds of ammo. That speaks of some sort of rampant paranoia, to say the least.

I do not include in that number people who collect and preserve antique firearms. People who collect in that fashion are no different in my mind than those who collect antique cars or motorcycles; it's the historical aspect that motivates those collectors. Besides, it's pretty hard to wreak havoc with most single shot antique long guns when you can only fire a couple of rounds per minute.

[villager]

39. Yup. Well observed summation of social trends.

The "fallout" is the gun violence we live with as a result of policies dictated by the outsized paranoia of gun wielders.

[ThatPoetGuy]

15. There is no dehumanization in the OP.

But hey, if it helps you to make false accusations about what other people said and did, I'm sure you'll continue.

[rbrnmw]

40. I didn't feel I was dehumanizing anyone

It seems this person wants a reason to be snarky I wasn't trying to be mean or vilify anybody but I don't know what I said that garnered such a response

[tblue]

29. Gun lovers are the ones who dehumanize people.

And yes we will continue calling them out for it.

[Lizzie Poppet]

32. Since I'm not sure what you mean by "gun lovers," I can't really comment. (nt)

[hifiguy]

20. The monomaniacal passion some gunners have

for these inanimate objects is indicative of some truly deep-seated psychological problems.

I am very fond of my bass guitars and my audio system but if it were obvious that these objects were responsible, in other hands, for mass death I would have no qualms about their being registered and regulated or, in the presence of reasonable justification, confiscated.

[Lizzie Poppet]

24. I actually quite agree.

I have no problem with reasonable regulation of a sort that actually has some chance of being effective. In the matter of spree-killings (which are not really the most pressing gun violence problem we have), one step I'd love to see is an expansion of the NICS background check database to include potentially disqualifying mental health issues beyond the involuntary commitments and adjudications it currently contains. I'd also like to see reasonable gun security measures mandated by law (if you can't be bothered to store your firearms securely, you shouldn't have any). Both of these steps could help keep weapons out of the hands of people likely to commit these atrocities.

the problem I'm having here lately is that any attempt at reasonable discussion of the way forward includes far too many people issuing broad-brush insults and indulging in hate speech under cover of people's understandably overwrought emotions. Sorry, but being horrified and even angry over a tragedy is no excuse for acting like a complete jackwagon to people who did nothing whatsoever to deserve it.

Not speaking to you with that, obviously...

[Robb]

35. If you feel you're getting "broad brushed" as an inhuman monster

...maybe it's because you're sitting too close to the monsters.

You don't get to stand between firefighters and the fire, then complain you're getting wet.

[Lizzie Poppet]

36. I'm sorry, but I simply can't agree with that, Robb.

It's not my fault if someone fails to adequately differentiate between markedly different points-of-view and perspectives (that happen to share a few points of congruence) and goes on to make insulting sweeping generalizations. That's their critical thinking failure.

[ThatPoetGuy]

49. It is possible to stand up to extremists AND make a more moderate viewpoint known.

If you choose to stay quiet in the face of raging extremism, or to argue a less extreme viewpoint against moderate but opposing voices that are being drowned out by the shouting that you sorta agree with, then it is no one's fault but your own if you are painted with the brush that you claim does not match your color.

When one hapless soul is arguing for moderate gun control and fifteen racists are shouting her down, you have a choice; if you choose to argue against the moderate and look the other way for the racists, you've made a decision.

[tblue]

30. Oh man! I was saying just yesterday

that the 'need' to have those kinds of firearms is an indication of some kind of illness that needs professional attention. It's true! Don't get an assault weapon. Get therapy!

[Lizzie Poppet]

37. Probably true for most anyone...

...who fails to discern the difference between "want" and "need."

[rbrnmw]

43. Well A Majority of American's Agree We Need

Some type of gun control I obviously wasn't talking about people who have guns for hunting or self defense. I said toys so I think you knew I meant Sporting Guns like the Bushmaster. I think you want to shut any conversation down about any type of gun control.

[Lizzie Poppet]

44. I agree with that majority.

And please dispense with the unnecessary and unfounded accusations of ulterior motives. Not only are you entirely incorrect, it's the very sort of thing that has made it almost impossible to have a reasoned, adult conversation on this topic here.

For the record, I've been consistently posting in support of a number of gun control measures. I will continue to do so.

[spanone]

21. and that's just on democratic underground

[Dems to Win]

33. Exactly. Time to make a choice, America

Arsenals of lethal weapons in private homes leads inevitably to periodic gun massacres. We've seen it again and again and again. And the gun lovers shrug and say these things happen, nothing we can do about it.....

NO MORE!

Freedom doesn't mean cowering in fear of my gun loving neighbors and their teen boys.

We need real, serious gun control now. FOR REAL.

The necessary first step is to repeal the second amendment. We don't need, and can't live with, the constitutional right to own a weapon of mass death. No more.

Repeal the Second Amendment Now.