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Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:12 PM

I wish women in the U.S. automatically kept their last names when they marry

It's close to impossible to locate women friends from school or childhood, because marriage annihilates their name. The dissolving of the woman's name upon marriage is encouraged and associated as somehow being a romantic act.

Men can be located easily because they change nothing when they get married. They remain themselves.

Easier in Europe, where everyone keeps their last name when they get married.

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Reply I wish women in the U.S. automatically kept their last names when they marry (Original post)
Sarah Ibarruri Jan 2012 OP
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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:13 PM

1. I've never changed my last name...

but then again, I'm from Europe originally...

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Response to HipChick (Reply #1)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:15 PM

3. Ha! :) Isn't it easier though? People remain themselves. nt

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Response to HipChick (Reply #1)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:34 PM

39. I'm a bra-burning feminist and refuse to be an appendage of my husband..


not really..

but I'm lazy, and its just too cumbersome to change everything..

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:15 PM

2. More than three decades ago, there was a trend of women either keeping their original

surnames (I refuse to call them "maiden names" or at worst, hypenated surnames when they married. I'm surprised to see a majority of younger women automatically changing their names with Mrs.

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Response to no_hypocrisy (Reply #2)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:16 PM

9. It's insane. I think it's the American romanticizing of the dissolution of the woman's name. nt

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Response to no_hypocrisy (Reply #2)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:51 PM

60. I had my own name for years then I added the hypen. I still get looks and grief about that!

 

To my way of thinking today's "girls" are a very disappointing bunch.

Very much into turning themselves into pretzels to please men. I thought it was going to be different for the generation following mine.

I live in a trendy neighborhood and as soon as a new fashion comes out they are all wearing it along with the long, long hair, the spray tans and the latest of the latest jogging outfits.

The mani pedi places are packed all the time it seems.

Even taking the el downtown to work they're in heels.

We always wore our running shoes and sox while commuting and changed to dressy ones when we got to work.

All my nieces have immediately taken their husbands' names.

Back to the 50's if you ask me

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Response to Peregrine Took (Reply #60)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:26 PM

103. Well, there's no doubt that right wing fake feminists brought us back to the Father Knows Best era

to a great degree.

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Response to Peregrine Took (Reply #60)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 06:04 PM

124. Yeah, Michelle Obama (nee Robinson) is such a disappointment, stuck in the 1950s (nt)

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:15 PM

4. I will never understand why women do this

 

nope

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Response to Skittles (Reply #4)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:17 PM

11. Me neither. I think in the U.S., women doing away with their name is romanticized. nt

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Response to Skittles (Reply #4)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:32 PM

33. I hated my maiden name because I was

adopted and it didn't reflect who I was. And, I had to always spell it out. I loved the last name of my ex-husband and kept it even when I got married for a short time. My last name is a common first name so I never have to spell it out.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:16 PM

5. I understand your point of view.

But it is, and remains, a very personal choice.

I loathed my maiden name, and could not wait to take my husbands'. I am much happier now. And I am still me.

My one daughter kept hers on marrying, and my other daughter changed hers.

To each her own.

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Reply #5)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:33 PM

35. +100

 

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Response to stockholmer (Reply #35)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:34 PM

40. Thank you...I appreciate your support. n/t

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Reply #5)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:58 PM

75. Your experience mirrors mine.

Didn't much like my maiden name, really liked my husband's name (still have both after 45 years), and seemed to make things less complicated, IMHO, for our two daughters to have same last name as both parents'. The first one kept hers/ours when she married, didn't have kids so not an issue there. Second one has been married twice, first to her kids' father, but chose to change her surname both times.

As for my name change--like you, I'm still me, except I like to think I've made some improvements through the years, which really had nothing to do with my name. Moving forward--that's the name of the game!

Blessings.


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Response to classof56 (Reply #75)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:25 PM

101. Thank you! Blessings to you as well...:) n/t

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Reply #5)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 10:01 PM

163. And that's how it should be. It's her choice.

 

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Reply #5)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 10:13 PM

170. Thank you!

Honestly -- it is a personal choice.

I, for one, cannot stand being told what is acceptable -- by male or female!

In my personal (!) case, my father abandoned the family. No child support, no visitations, no holidays, birthdays, nothing. And there I was -- STUCK with his awful last name for years -- with no connection to him or his family. Every time I heard it I was reminded of his absence. Not to mention, that it was a difficult name in and of itself.

So, when I married a loving man -- who supported my dreams, is a feminist, is my best friend... YES, I gladly share his name.

I'm as tired of females telling me what shoes or hair style to wear, or whether I should or shouldn't use make-up! Sorry, but I do as I like. Billy Jean King, Marlo Thomas, and Glroia Steinum do as they like too -- and they all seem to wear make-up, dye their hair and whatnot.

PLEASE!

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Response to October (Reply #170)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 10:54 PM

171. Kudos to you for not letting your awful young life embitter you to loving someone!

How good that you married such a good man...

And I agree with everything you've said here!

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Reply #171)

Wed Feb 1, 2012, 06:00 PM

296. Thanks for the hugs and warm support, CaliforniaPeggy. <3

I appreciate it very much.

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Reply #5)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 12:18 AM

178. Exactly!

Mine was THE worst ever.

However, I did hyphenate for about a year and that was probably worse than just keeping it. It didn't sound right (the combo was awful) and I did like dh's last name better.

My oldest brother changed his last name in college, before he went off to flight school (US Navy). He didn't want to be Lieutenant (really crappy maiden name).

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Reply #5)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 11:40 AM

196. Hated mine too.

My mother understands. But her maiden name was even worse.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:16 PM

6. it would help with geneology work too.

contrary to popular belief it isnt some new femenist invention. ive bee through many british graveyards and seen may tombstones (several hundred years old) in where husband and wife were bured side by side - the wives took their husbands names but kept theirs too - as in Elizabeth Jones Smith.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #6)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:32 PM

34. It would definitely help with genealogy. Women are often lost forever because of the identity

change.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #6)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 07:47 PM

145. An excellent observation

I have probably over 100 women for whom their original family name is lost to me. Sometimes one has to find a marriage record (no easy task) or an obit for a relative of a woman to find her maiden name. At least we have gotten away from a REALLY disgusting tendency in American culture, where a woman becomes Mrs Husband. I think that trend was really disgusting. Mrs John Smith, Mrs Bob Johnson or whatever. The woman is nothing but an extension of her husband, no personality of her own when she is called this. The fact that it makes genealogy hard is just annoying. The fact that she is socially downgraded so far that she doesn't even have a first name is disgusting.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:16 PM

7. Where in Europe does "everyone keep their last name when they get married?"

Please be specific, because I can name specific places where that's not true. And since you said "everyone" you are clearly wrong.

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Response to Renew Deal (Reply #7)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:18 PM

12. Spain, France, Italy. nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #12)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:35 PM

41. Not true for France

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #41)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:39 PM

46. As wiki says, in France, women retain their birth certificate name

France
Since the 1789 Revolution, the law stipulates that "no one may use another name than that given on his birth certificate";[23] furthermore, the 1946 revision to the Constitution guarantees that "women and men have equal rights", including in the use of their birth name. Upon getting married, a woman keeps her maiden name (nom de jeune fille). She may, under her maiden name, for example, open a bank account, sign cheques, obtain a passport, etc. However, marriage grants a married person the right to assume his or her spouse's last name. It is still a common practice for a woman to use her husband's name in this way, despite the fact that no official due process formalizes this usage. The majority of married women use their husband's name for all documents, official or not. The article 264 of the French civil code does, however, stipulate that "upon divorcing both spouses lose the right to use each other's name".

A married person who wishes to formally append a spouse's name to his or her birth name may do so through a simple administrative procedure. In recent years, this trend has gained popularity, especially among upper class women and among women who received a university diploma (MD, PhD) under their maiden name. For example, President Nicolas Sarkozy's wife is called Madame Bruni-Sarkozy, in which "Bruni" is her birth name and "Sarkozy" her husband's name. Some husbands append their wife's last name to their birth name, although this remains rare.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #46)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:16 PM

92. And yet some women are known by their married name

so clearly the Wikipedia article has misled you.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #92)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:19 PM

96. Not at all. My mom sometimes (almost never) might add my father's name as follows:

Karin Andreu (her mom's name) Martinez (her father's name) of Ibarruri (my father's name). But she almost never was forced to do that. I know for a fact it happened once when there was some official invitation in which my father was the primary person invited, so as to 'connect' her with him as an invitee, but not as a daughter.

Otherwise, she's Karin Andreu Martinez, her own name and identity.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #96)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:44 PM

116. Your mum, even if she is French, does not show that "*everyone* keeps their last name"

whereas Lagarde does, definitively, disprove it.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #116)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:45 PM

117. Oi vei, okay, believe as makes you feel best. nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #117)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 06:04 PM

125. It's not a question of 'belief', it's fact

Some French women are known by their husband's surname. We can see that. Lagarde is an example. You don't get to ignore the facts.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #125)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 11:30 AM

193. Psst, reread the wiki clip, it also says that.


"However, marriage grants a married person the right to assume his or her spouse's last name. It is still a common practice for a woman to use her husband's name in this way, despite the fact that no official due process formalizes this usage. The majority of married women use their husband's name for all documents, official or not."

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #193)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 12:14 PM

205. I know; she highlighted some of it, and seems to have ignored the rest

In fact, we have a 1995 survey saying 91% of French women took their husband's surname (on its own, not using both together): http://www.ined.fr/fichier/t_publication/68/publi_pdf2_pop_and_soc_english_367.pdf

The other figures for the countries mentioned are: Italy - 64% use both surnames; Spain - 77% use their own original surname.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #46)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 11:29 AM

192. That is rather funny and shows the opposite point.

"However, marriage grants a married person the right to assume his or her spouse's last name. It is still a common practice for a woman to use her husband's name in this way, despite the fact that no official due process formalizes this usage. The majority of married women use their husband's name for all documents, official or not."

I know a lot of French women who have the same name as husband, some don't, just like in the USA. Also, just like in the USA, " marriage grants a married person the right to assume his or her spouse's last name. It is still a common practice for a woman to use her husband's name in this way, despite the fact that no official due process formalizes this usage. The majority of married women use their husband's name for all documents, official or not."


And, like in the USA, you can formally file for a name change.


As far as "equal rights", also like many other places, that means legally, not necessarily socially or otherwise.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #12)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 12:14 PM

206. Italy? When Did That Start?

The marriage certificates of both sides of our family show the names of both people as the same. My dad's parents were married in Siracuse in 1921, and my mom's parents were married in panateria in 1917.

GAC

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Response to ProfessorGAC (Reply #206)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 03:29 PM

217. Your grandparent's were siblings?!?!

 

Just Kidding.

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Response to ProfessorGAC (Reply #206)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 08:31 AM

254. "n Italy since 1975 a woman legally keeps her birth name..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Married_and_maiden_names

And a note as an FYI: the legality-now tradition in the U.S. of a woman losing her name and taking on the name of THE GROOM'S FATHER'S NAME (as if both, the bride and groom were brother and sister), comes to us not from Italy, not from France, not from Spain, and not from any of the countries where Spanish is spoken, nor from myriad others, but from dear old ENGLAND, from a time when women were chattel.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:16 PM

8. Is this an "America... bad!" post or a "Men... bad!" post?

 

This one's kind of on the fence. I need to know in order to know who to be angry with.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #8)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:18 PM

14. It's a, "Why are we romanticizing women destroying their names" post. :) nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #14)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 06:08 PM

128. "Destroying" is a loaded, hyperbolic, emotional and foolish way of saying "choosing to change".


If women choose to change their names, that is fine.

If they choose not to change their names, that is also fine.

If men choose to change their names - in the UK, quite a lot of couples double-barrel - that is also fine.

Implying that women who choose to change their names are somehow doing something bad or wrong - or "destructive" - is just as silly as implying that women who choose not to are, and for exactly the same reasons.

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Response to Donald Ian Rankin (Reply #128)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 07:20 PM

139. Double-barrelled names

The problem with double-barrelling is that powers of two grow quickly, with 8 hyphenated names after just 3 generations, and 16 the next. A great way to show your immediate ancestry, but you'd have to be an Ent to want to introduce yourself this way.

A wedding will be taking place between: Tarquin Fin-tim-lin-bin-whin-bim-lim-bus-stop-F'tang-F'tang-Olť-Biscuitbarrel and Malcolm Peter Brian Telescope Adrian Umbrella Stand Jasper Wednesday (pops mouth twice) Stoatgobbler John Raw Vegetable (whinnying) Arthur Norman Michael (blows squeaker) Featherstone Smith (whistle) Northgot Edwards Harris (fires pistol, then 'whoop') Mason (chuff-chuff-chuff-chuff) Frampton Jones Fruitbat (laughs) (squeaker) Gilbert (sings) 'We'll keep a welcome in the' (three shots) Williams If I Could Walk That Way Jenkin (squeaker) Tiger-drawers Pratt Thompson (sings) 'Raindrops Keep Falling On My Head' Darcy Carter (horn) Pussycat (sings) 'Don't Sleep In The Subway' Barton Mainwaring (hoot, 'whoop') Smith.

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Response to Donald Ian Rankin (Reply #128)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 08:27 PM

150. But men are never expected to change their last name. In fact...

they would be viewed as odd if they changed their last name to that of the bride's father's last name.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #150)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 08:50 PM

151. Mostly true, but not relevant to the morality of it.

A fair number of men in the UK double-barrel, but I've never heard of a man changing his name when the woman didn't.

But that is not relevant to whether or not it's wrong for a woman to do so.

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Response to Donald Ian Rankin (Reply #151)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 08:52 PM

152. Perhaps so, but it indicates that it's a sexist throwback to the

subservience of women, and that men would not settle for accepting the bride's father's last name as his own, the way women do with the groom's father's last name.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #152)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 09:30 PM

157. Sure, but again, not relevant to the morality of doing it today.


I quite agree that it's a tradition that exists for bad reasons.

But just because other people once did something for bad reasons doesn't mean that doing it is a bad thing.

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Response to Donald Ian Rankin (Reply #157)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 09:31 PM

158. It is quite related to what's happening today.

In fact, it might be the most telling thing about why it's happening today.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #150)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 12:00 AM

173. It didn't seem to hurt Antonio Villaraigosa nt.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #150)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 08:42 AM

182. NZ rugby league player Robbie Paul changed his name to Hunter-Paul

after he married his girlfriend Natalie Hunter. The Hunter-Pauls were married in England.

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Response to SwissTony (Reply #182)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 08:26 AM

253. I'm sure we can find exceptions somewhere. They are exceptions, tho. ;-) nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #253)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 02:41 PM

266. Yes, there are. Rugby League is an exceptionally macho game.

I've long been a fan of the Paul brothers (there's Robbie and Henry) who besides being brilliant players have shown exceptional intelligence and modesty both on and off the field. Not at all the macho sterotype, but both very tough. And talented.

I'm Australian, and we Ozzies say about tough guys "I wouldn't want to pinch his beer". I'd buy the Paul brothers a beer (or a sarsparilla) anytime.

Edited because I don't know the difference between the words "Henry" and "Paul"

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Response to SwissTony (Reply #266)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 03:11 PM

267. Rugby is a wild, rough game! I first watched it in Spain. Was amazed! nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #150)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 08:23 AM

251. Rory Pond disagrees

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Response to krawhitham (Reply #251)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 08:25 AM

252. Yes? Brides are out there asking the groom to take the bride's mother's surname? :) nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:17 PM

10. some do keep it, some just add the husband's name to theirs so you can check middle

names. but i guess this is more in recent years.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #10)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:26 PM

27. That's how it was in my family

 

My mother, grandmothers, etc, would lose their middle name, make their "maiden" name their new middle name, and then take the husband's last name. High school friends from back home usually use their full name on Facebook for that reason- so you can find them.

It made me always wonder why parents bothered giving their daughter a middle name in the first place, if they are going to lose it

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Response to arcane1 (Reply #27)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:43 PM

114. My maiden name is now my middle name.

I borrowed that idea from my mother-in-law

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Response to arcane1 (Reply #27)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 09:35 PM

159. I was given two middle names at birth, with one of them being my mother's maiden name.

This is very common in my mom's home country. I like it - if I only have space for one middle name on a form or something, that's the one I'll use.

If I ever got married, I wouldn't change my last name - been using it as a pro byline for too many years, and I like it, and that side of my family is dying out so I don't want to hasten the loss of the name.

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Response to arcane1 (Reply #27)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 09:47 AM

185. I always thought it was odd

that my mom never had a middle name.

It was only when she got to her mid-late 60s that she got a Confirmation name (I think that's what it's called? She was brought up Catholic...I wasn't).

She wanted "Theresa" but chose "Mary" instead because it was easier for her to spell.

As for me, I've always detested my middle name...Evelyn.

Although I don't hate it so much if I pronounce it "Eev-linn" instead of "Ev-uh-linn".

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Response to JI7 (Reply #10)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:13 PM

87. We got married in 95 and that was my choice.

I had a profesional identity that I did not want to give up when we married. I "lost" my middle name from birth and then made my family name (Davis) my new middle name.

This was nothing new in either family, however. My husband's middle name is Owen--which was his mom's "maiden" name. We had decided that if we had a boy he'd be called Owen Davis Sand____. Similarly, in my family, Earl has been used the same way.




Laura

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Response to davsand (Reply #87)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:25 PM

100. That's another issue I hadn't thought of before I posted my difficulty in locating friends - that

women have careers they begin before marriage, and need their identity for them.

But in general, even women without careers should be able to maintain their own identity the way men do.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:18 PM

13. I know a couple who both changed their last name to the same, new name. nt

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #13)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:20 PM

16. The current mayor of Los Angeles did that.

I don't remember who had which name, but they combined their names into Villaraigosa. I'm not sure about the spelling...

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Reply #16)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:29 PM

32. Interesting! nt

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Reply #16)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:05 PM

81. Was that BEFORE he cheated on her?

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Response to U4ikLefty (Reply #81)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:26 PM

102. They did the name change at their marriage, so yes, it was before. n/t

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Reply #102)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 09:35 PM

160. So is the great Antonio married to her now?

I'm sure he is because he is such an honorable family-man

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Response to U4ikLefty (Reply #160)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 09:55 PM

162. They may be divorced now...I haven't kept up with their hijinks... n/t

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Response to U4ikLefty (Reply #81)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 12:03 AM

176. It was after round 1 of cheating, but before the final round. nt.

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #13)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:21 PM

19. When I got married, my name was changed. I thought it was so ROMANTIC for me to lose my identity

Then when I got divorced, I got my name back faster than a light particle travels. My ex asked me why I'd done that, and I told him I was not related to his family. I was related to mine.

My next marriage, I'm staying me. Crazy to take on a new identity the moment you fall in love and take vows.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #19)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:26 PM

28. I thought both of them changing their name was Romantic. nt

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #28)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:27 PM

31. Lol Major confusion then. Nobody would retain their identity. nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:19 PM

15. My wife didn't change her name when we got married.

Why should she? That's her name. I never did understand that.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #15)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:20 PM

18. she is awesome, and she married an awesome guy!

 

yeah I know, it should be common sense but......

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Response to Skittles (Reply #18)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:35 PM

42. Ya, she is awesome, and I hope I deserve her.

I keep trying to.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #15)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:21 PM

20. If you read my post #5, you'll get an idea...n/t

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Reply #20)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:34 PM

38. Sure. I understand. I don't have a problem

either way. It is, and always has been a choice. But, my wife likes her name. Besides, she didn't have to go change her social security card or driver's license, either. There are advantages.

On the other hand, my 87-year-old mom addresses letters to us as: Mrs. and Mrs. Myname Mylastname, using my name. My wife doesn't care. She says, "Well, I am Mrs. Myname Mylastname, too, but I'm still HerFirstname Herlastname, all the same."

And then, there's the odd mail piece that comes addressed to Myname and Herfirstname Herlastname. It's all hilarious.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #15)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:21 PM

21. I agree. It's pretty crazy! nt

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #15)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:13 PM

88. I wouldn't have either

Who would want to change their last name to Man?

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Response to johnnie (Reply #88)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 07:32 PM

144. Well, that's a good point, certainly.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:20 PM

17. My dear, American Women have to jump through hoops to change their names

 

Keeping your birth name is automatic, here as abroad. Changing your name involves the Social Security Administration, the IRS, the banks, the credit rating bureaus, etc. But, until recently, schools really couldn't cope with the horror of a mother whose family name didn't match the child's. The presumption that a child takes the father's family name is a whole 'nother thing.

Hyphenation only works with short, Anglo-Saxon names. Two Polacks would generate 15-20 character names--far too long for a computer database.

Many women who do not want to be located rejoice in the "new life" of a name change, at least until the marriage blows up. And then, changing back is just as much work. Moving up in the alphabet is a bonus for those who start below "L"

It's not the romance, it's the record-keeping and the constant explanation....

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Response to Demeter (Reply #17)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:23 PM

23. Betcha there would be a whole big to-do if women required men to change their name and identity

But they don't have to, and so....

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #23)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 03:48 PM

219. Women are "required" to do this?


I've been married twice and in neither instance did I care one way or the other. My current wife has kept the last name of the man who married her mother.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:21 PM

22. What about the children? Should they

 

have their mother's last name too?

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Response to B Calm (Reply #22)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:26 PM

26. In Spain 2 names are used: the mother's and the father's. For example...

Sarah Martinez (mom) Ibarruri (dad). No confusion. The person had 2 parents (obviously - until science changes that), and they receive names from both.

In any case, changing my identity to Sarah Smith, for example, and pretending I am the daughter of some guy's parents, simply because I like some guy enough to marry him, is confusing.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #26)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:33 PM

36. I learned something today, thanks.

 

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Response to B Calm (Reply #36)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:27 PM

104. Thank you. nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)


Response to Obamanaut (Reply #24)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:26 PM

29. EXACTLY right! n/t

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:25 PM

25. Boy oh boy, I don't.....

I married into this family because I loved them more than I
would ever love the family I was born into.
If I could change my birth certificate name, I would.


Tikki

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Response to Tikki (Reply #25)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:27 PM

30. Then you'd be the daughter of his parents. nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #30)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:41 PM

49. Hah...My father-in-Law was like my only father...He used to call...

Me Sis..

Guess that made my FIL my brother and my husband my nephew...




Tikki

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Response to Tikki (Reply #49)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:42 PM

51. You'd be his sister! And the implications of that... would be interesting. :) nt

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Response to Tikki (Reply #49)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:07 PM

83. Maybe you are you are your own grandma?

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:33 PM

37. I changed mine.

Because my husbands name has 5 less letters to it. Having to write 9 letters got old.

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Response to Neoma (Reply #37)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:35 PM

43. Maybe so, but now your brain hurts. :) nt

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Response to Neoma (Reply #37)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:43 PM

52. I know what you are saying. My last name

 

has 10 letters in it. When my grandparents came to this country they shortened our last name at Ellis Island from 14 letters to 10. Whew. . .

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:37 PM

44. I did (2 decades ago)

I was almost 30 when I married ... I had built a reputation in nursing that was identified with my name ... I could see no reason to give that up

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Response to etherealtruth (Reply #44)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:43 PM

53. You kept your name 30 years ago? That's unusual and GREAT! I agree. Particularly now with women

having careers. It's silly for them to lose their identity.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #53)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:48 PM

58. No, no 20 years ago :-)

I'm going to be 50 this month ...

Actually, I have several friends in my age group that have been identified by their birth name only.

Oddly, I have found (i realize its anecdotal and means nothing) that all (100%) of the younger women I know have changed their names ... I don't 'get it" (I suppose I don't need to understand their choice).

For some reason it irks me when a woman prefers to be addressed as Mrs. X (I know it shouldn't, but in honesty it does)

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Response to etherealtruth (Reply #58)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:01 PM

78. Me too! I think it's particularly crazy when things are addressed as, "Mrs. John Smith" - then

the woman REALLY is a nobody, with no identity, and in a sense, she's like a daughter of the husband. Very odd, really.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:38 PM

45. Not to mention the implications...

You lose YOUR identity (name).

It's a indicator of ownership and subserviience. A completely archaic and sexist "custom".

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Response to mzteris (Reply #45)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:41 PM

50. It is an indication of subservience and ownership. No doubt about that. The romanticizing of it

is how it is encouraged.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #50)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:45 PM

54. It's like bragging , ooo look

I got a maaa-uhn.

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Response to mzteris (Reply #54)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:28 PM

105. If that's what it is, how incredibly sad that such a thing become one's primary goal in life. :( nt

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Response to mzteris (Reply #45)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:14 PM

90. CORRECT

 

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:40 PM

47. depends on age.. younger women (<35) tend to be keeping their maiden name or hyphenating..

 

I have found a few times where locating an old school mate or friend who got married on facebook to be impossible but not usually.

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Response to ddeclue (Reply #47)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:41 PM

48. I have found there are women I was friends with whom no one I know can locate due to the ID

change via the name change.

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Response to ddeclue (Reply #47)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:46 PM

55. I'm married 25 years and I kept my own last name (I'm <50) nt

 

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:47 PM

56. On the other hand, I didn't like my last name and had no pride

in it for personal reasons.

I was happy to change it.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:48 PM

57. It's something to remember when building a Web site

On my wife's site, I put her maiden name in the meta tags. People have found her by searching for her by that name; the search brought them to her site.

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Response to DavidDvorkin (Reply #57)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:52 PM

63. One would have to, since that name disappears. nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #63)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:55 PM

70. It survives on Classmates.com

And maybe other such sites. They list women by both names, because of course people are searching for classmates by the names they remember them by.

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Response to DavidDvorkin (Reply #70)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:59 PM

76. I see. Ok. It's funny but most people don't even know some married women's real names - only

their married names.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #76)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 06:36 PM

132. My wife feels strongly that her married name is her real name

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:51 PM

59. I wish people would quit telling others what to do

 

Seriously, it gets old...

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Response to joeglow3 (Reply #59)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:53 PM

65. What's wrong with discussing an interesting topic on a forum?

 

Isn't that the purpose of them?

The OP had an opinion to throw out there and now we are kicking it around.

No one is telling anyone what to do. SHeesh!!!!

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Response to Peregrine Took (Reply #65)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:54 PM

69. Read the topic title again

 

SHeesh!!!!

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Response to joeglow3 (Reply #59)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:55 PM

71. I don't see anyone telling another what to do .... ?

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Response to etherealtruth (Reply #71)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:57 PM

73. Really? I would think step 1 before clicking on a topic title is to read it.

 

Apparently not.

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Response to joeglow3 (Reply #73)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:59 PM

77. Wishing is not telling ....?

"I would think step 1 before clicking on a topic title is to read it. Apparently not."

On this we agree

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Response to etherealtruth (Reply #77)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:05 PM

82. You can play semantics all you want. The point remains the same.

 

Too damn many people want/wish/desire/hope/believe that others would be just like them and live according to their views (even on DU).

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Response to joeglow3 (Reply #82)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:14 PM

91. Its not a semantics game

At no point did the OP state that women should be required to keep her birth name .... at no point was the desire expressed to codify this into law.

I wish people didn't smoke ... at no point would I support or advocate legislating this ... or telling folk they shouldn't.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:52 PM

61. I kept mine

And I hear what you're saying.

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Response to graywarrior (Reply #61)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:53 PM

66. Great!! I don't understand the point of it, unless the woman feels subservient. Very odd. nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #66)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:56 PM

72. The notion that others may prefer things other than what you do NEVER occurred, did it?

 

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #66)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:53 PM

120. I'm sorry, but I am annoyed. I do NOT feel subservient to my husband.

I CHOSE TO TAKE HIS NAME BECAUSE I WANTED TO.

When you say things like it's odd when the woman takes the man's name, that really annoys me. I am not odd.

And I did not lose my identity. My identity is much more than my name, last or otherwise.

Good grief.

Do you not understand to each her own?

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Reply #120)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 12:33 AM

180. Thank you!

It is beyond annoying to be considered subservient because you do something most consider traditional. Stating opinion as fact really bugs me too.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #66)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 12:16 PM

207. Now it's coming out

 

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:52 PM

62. I don't particularly want to be found by anyone from my childhood

And even though my marriage is in the crapper, I may just keep my husband's name in the event of a divorce! My brother's ex-wife kept his last name when they divorced.

I agree with Peggy; to each her own.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:53 PM

64. I'm not sure it is as widespread in europe as you seem to think.

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Response to Quantess (Reply #64)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:54 PM

68. In Spain, that's the only way it is. I lived there for many years. Not one of my female

acquaintances, young, old, or middle age, used her husband's name. They have 2 names, but one is their father's and one is their mother's.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:54 PM

67. It's a matter of choice really

My daughter-in-law was thrilled to take her husbands name, but she wasn't pressured into doing so. As for me, after divorcing, I dropped my husband's name AND my father's name, and paid a lawyer to make my middle name (which was my grandmother's first name) my last. It was a statement for me, and I've never regretted it.

Choice is the key word. Women who choose to take a husband's name are entitled to do so without disrespect, for whatever their personal reasons. Sorry if it's inconvenient for you or others.

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Response to lillypaddle (Reply #67)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:57 PM

74. I don't think there's an individual pressure to do so, nope. I think it's a societal "pressure" and

the way that societal pressure works is by making it appear very romantic that the wife obliterate her name, while the husband keep his forever. But no, it's not an individual pressure. There's no need for individual pressure, when it's already promoted by being romanticized.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #74)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:02 PM

79. You mean "societal pressure"

like saying a woman must be subservient to take her husband's name? A little reverse discrimination, maybe? There seems to be a new brand of "feminism" afoot, that makes the freedom to choose okay as long it is a choice that is acceptable to the brand.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:02 PM

80. I wish I'd have kept my maiden name. There are lots of people with my

husbands name very few with mine, in our town. In fact everyone with mine are closely related. My daughter writes and uses my maiden name.

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Response to madmom (Reply #80)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:08 PM

84. Your daughter is a writer? That's great! Congrats, madmom!

It's easier when women keep some sort of identity.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #84)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 06:28 PM

131. Well she's trying to be, ...thanks

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:09 PM

85. After my divorce I had the option of keeping my married name.

Or returning to my maiden name which I hated. It was a name that was easy to make mean word puns with. But as much as I liked my married name I was just sick of being named and defined in a patriarchal society as an extension of some man so I chose my own last name, one that has several different meanings.

Unfortunately this does mean that people I used to know can't easily locate me, but I'm not so sure I really mind that.

However, if you go to a site like people search, put in the maiden name and the name of the city you last knew them in, you will probably be able to locate them. I just did that and found myself rather quickly.

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Response to Hatchling (Reply #85)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:23 PM

99. That would be a name change. I once encountered a surname, Penix, which definitely should have

been changed LOL!

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:09 PM

86. Whose last name should the children get?

Both last names separated by a hyphen? Sounds good, but then when they get married and have kids, won't their kids' names end up very very long? I'm just curious about how people handle it over there.

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Response to ecstatic (Reply #86)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:22 PM

98. See response #22. I think that pretty much explains the European fashion for children's surnames -

they use the mother's and the father's, both, since both are parents of the child, not just one.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #98)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 11:36 AM

194. Spain is in Europe but is not all of Europe. Most other countries in Europe go with family name, typ

typically the father of the father of the father of the father of the father. Not a combo of the father of the father of the father of the father and the father of the father of the father of the mother.

Spain, yes. But that does not make it "European fashion".

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #194)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 09:45 PM

230. Most countries don't expect women to take the last name of the groom's father.

France, Italy, Spain, and many others don't expect that.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #230)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 10:20 PM

244. They do in France. If you read the whole wiki bit you quoted, you would see that.

And yes, they do expect that in France though, like in the USA, there are those who don't, who are changing things. But like here in the USA, while their name may stay the same on drivers licenses, soc sec cards, unless they take measures to change it, most people in France do expect that.

Don't know about Italy beyond friends who mostly (as here in USA) the woman uses the man's last name after they are married.

Let's see.
UK
Ireland
Scotland
Germany
Poland
Switzerland
Sweden
Norway
Austria
Czech
Hungary
Ukraine
Belgium
Netherlands
Slovakia
Croatia
Serbia
Bulgaria
Greece
Romania
Portugal
Denmark
I am sure there are more not springing to mind at the moment

Which "many others" of these do you mean?

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #98)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 03:06 PM

291. In Italy the wife keeps her family name and the children take the name of the father

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:13 PM

89. Sign of the Times: All my female friends use both their names on Facebook.

I do, too.

Every single woman I know uses her maiden name and her married name.

Facebook, as with genealogy, rely on knowing a person's "maiden" name in order to locate them or their records.

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Response to Fawke Em (Reply #89)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:16 PM

93. Great! The use of our own name is important. nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:17 PM

94. I'm in favor of a woman's right to choose on this issue.

The women I know are pretty much split 50-50 on this decision. And I'm certainly not going to throw a finger-wagging hissyfit at the women who choose to change their name, even if it does make it a little harder for childhood friends to track them down.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:17 PM

95. Definitely forso genealogy it is WONDERFUL to keep it

I started doing in myself 37 years ago, but dropped it because it was lso ong tosign things with both. In today's tech world, how many things to you have to WRITE your name to?

My 27 year old daughter uses both. My 32 year old engaaged gay daughter says she and her future wife with use both names.

It seems the younger generation has the right idea.

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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #95)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:20 PM

97. It IS wonderful. The younger generation will change the old, useless tradition. nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #97)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 06:00 PM

122. YEAH Michelle Obama (nee Robinson) is such a fuddy-duddy old traditionalist (nt)

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:29 PM

106. Here's an interesting wiki article related to name changes after marriage worldwide

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Response to etherealtruth (Reply #106)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:33 PM

107. Yes, it's a good article. We were using that to discuss French women using their own name

Very good to know how other countries use women's names.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #107)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:36 PM

110. It's interesting to note that in Islam

... women keep their birth names. like all things Islam is practiced differently in different countries .... Muslim Indians rend to follow the Indian naming traditions (as an example)

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Response to etherealtruth (Reply #110)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:42 PM

112. Even there! I lived in Spain for many years (my grandparents are full-blooded Spaniards) and

all women use their mother's and father's surnames. Same in Italy, France, and many other countries. No changing. When I was in Spain, I used my mother's and father's names, both. It was quite a change from when I was married and even my (only) surname, as used in this country - my dad's - disappeared. I was sooo happy using my mom and dad's names. Every document was in my mom and dad's names.

I was considering changing my surname (which once again my dad's) to my mom's surname, hyphen, then my dad's name. That's how my name was in Spanish, sans the hyphen.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:33 PM

108. I think we're actually naming the Y chromosome

That's the only possible biological reason I can come up for it.

No matter that the girl's X chromosomes also get that name cuz you can't tell the difference between them.

Some genealogical research follows the Y chromosomes, literally.

edit: oops, not really relevent for a woman changing her name, more for how the kids are named...

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Response to Duer 157099 (Reply #108)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:44 PM

115. Interesting theory. :) nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:35 PM

109. It seems to me that a lotof women are using their original last name as a middle when married.


and then taking the husbands last name as their own.

Do you see this trend too?

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #109)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:43 PM

113. I don't see it too much. I live in Florida, so it might be very old-fashioned and conservative here

Perhaps in big cities, or up north it might be different?

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:40 PM

111. I married a European and she changed her name...

 

... as did many of her friends who married other Europeans.

Why don't you let everyone do what they like and keep your name if you want?

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:45 PM

118. To each their own

Some change their name and some don't. It's a choice for them to make.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:46 PM

119. They do. If they want to change their name they have to go change it.


My wife had no right to my name, it's mine it wasn't hers.

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Response to RB TexLa (Reply #119)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 07:26 PM

142. you wife doesn't share names with you.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:53 PM

121. It's a personal choice, and should be. And what petty little reasons for wanting women to do what

want them to do, no questions asked - so you can find them on Facebook easier! Absurd.

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Response to apocalypsehow (Reply #121)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 06:02 PM

123. And there are plenty of people that just don't want to be found.

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Response to tammywammy (Reply #123)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 06:06 PM

127. Exactly - I hadn't thought of that but you're absolutely correct.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 06:04 PM

126. I wish people would focus on running their own lives, instead of other peoples'.

For the record, my wife kept her own last name.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #126)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 06:15 PM

130. I'd agree with that. n/t

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 06:14 PM

129. That's not true. The origin of women losing their names started in Europe & many women give it up.

I wonder where you got that everyone keeps their last names. That's hardly the case. Most women in France for instance are not even getting married, since non-married couples can share the same advantages as married couples. However those who do get married a lot of them give up their names.

As a womanist, I don't see what is wrong with a woman wanting to give up her name as a romantic act. In this day and age many women know it's a personal choice since there are plenty of women have dual names. But I don't wish women to stop--- it is their prerogative. I still see Michelle Obama as a strong woman despite the fact she doesn't carry her own name. Carrying the name of one's husband is a personal choice and I don't see it holding the same gravitas it did 200 or so years ago.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 06:37 PM

133. My 73-year-old mother has had three last names in her lifetime...

and has close friends dating back to the mid-1940s (and all -- gasp! -- without social media). It's really not "close to impossible to maintain friendships" -- one just needs to put forth the effort.

My mother has remained "herself" no matter which last name she posseses.

To each his or her own.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 06:46 PM

134. This is already the case.

I'm a woman who has been married for over 20 years. I kept my name automatically. It would have taken some paperwork to actually change it to my husband's last name. Perhaps this varies from state to state.

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Response to surrealAmerican (Reply #134)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 08:26 PM

149. It does vary. You're right, no one is forced at gunpoint to do anything

But the promotion of the woman taking the man's name is associated with romance, and it continues to be done. Women who don't are looked upon rather oddly.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 06:49 PM

135. It often makes genealogy impossible.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 06:52 PM

136. I don't think going to oe common name for a couple is a bad thing nessesarily

But an option should be for the husband to take his wife's name if he decides to, or add it to his name in a hyphenated way.

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Response to Guy Montag (Reply #136)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 06:54 PM

137. That's always been an option

It's just as easy (or difficult to go through the process) for a man to change his last name as it is for a woman.

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Response to Guy Montag (Reply #136)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 08:22 PM

148. Yes indeed! nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 07:04 PM

138. My female european relatives took their husbands' names

Last edited Mon Jan 23, 2012, 02:11 PM - Edit history (1)

My niece married a guy with her mother's maiden name so that name is back.

Edited to change femail to female- I wrote FEMAIL!!!??? where's the spelling police-I want to turn myself in.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 07:20 PM

140. LOL, when I got married my (ex) wife changed her WHOLE name.

 

My last name, a first name of her choosing. She dropped her given middle name.

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Response to Edweird (Reply #140)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 08:18 PM

147. Wow! That's one heck of a change! nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #147)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 09:51 PM

161. Yeah, but that's just how we rolled... Our wedding bands were tattoos.

 

No, I don't regret the tattoo.

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Response to Edweird (Reply #161)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 09:41 PM

229. Were they cute tattoos? nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #229)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 10:03 PM

239. Woven barbed wire.

 

Probably not most people's idea of 'cute'. I work outside and it's 10 years old, so it's pretty faded.

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Response to Edweird (Reply #239)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 10:10 PM

243. I guess one can have a tattoo refreshed? I've never known someone to do it

but it's kinda like getting a makeover.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #243)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 10:45 PM

247. That chapter in my life is over.

 

I am divorced and ready to move on. The fading seem poetically appropriate. I have no need to 'hang on to the past' by refreshing it - I am content to allow it slip away.

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Response to Edweird (Reply #247)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 08:12 AM

248. Oh. A tattoo fading is a good metaphor for the ending of a relationship

Thanks for sharing that with me.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 07:23 PM

141. Women have to change their last names on DL's, S.S. etc

Marrying does not automatically legally change a woman's name.

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Response to Mimosa (Reply #141)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 11:41 AM

197. Exactly. Unless they petition a court, their legal name remains the same. Like in France per

the wiki thing posted above.

There is a convention that you can start using your husband's (or wife's) last name after being married, may have to show marriage certificate but the usage is accepted. Rather like you can use a different name any time if you so wish, if you are not intending to deceive others. This doesn't make it legal, but is accepted practice.

I am agreeing with you here.

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Response to Mimosa (Reply #141)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 09:51 PM

232. Yes. You have to notify agencies of marriage. Correct. nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 07:27 PM

143. I'm taking my wife's name and giving mine up.

I am changing to Japanese citizenship and will be taking my wife's name.

My wife's father, btw, also was an adopted husband who gave up his last name and took his wife's name.

It is done in Japan to keep a daily tree alive when there are no males heirs to inherit the name.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #143)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 08:15 PM

146. I didn't know that. Very interesting. nt

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #143)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 12:20 PM

208. That is possible in NY State

 

but nowhere else in the U.S. that I know of (unless, of course, you just go through the regular name change process).

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 08:53 PM

153. Changing your name is not automatic

To get your name officially changed you need to ask for it changed. There are reasons for both decisions. I had worked for 13 years before marrying, but I wanted my future kids, husband and me to have the same name. I followed my mom's action when she married in 1949 and made my name officially Karen (maiden name, married name). I used all three names at work - especially on technical memos.

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Response to karynnj (Reply #153)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 09:07 PM

156. Here's what my post said:


I wish women in the U.S. automatically kept their last names when they marry

It's close to impossible to locate women friends from school or childhood, because marriage annihilates their name. The dissolving of the woman's name upon marriage is encouraged and associated as somehow being a romantic act.

Men can be located easily because they change nothing when they get married. They remain themselves.

Easier in Europe, where everyone keeps their last name when they get married.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #156)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 10:02 PM

165. I read what you wrote - and I pointed out that changing your name is NOT automatic

It is easy, but you have to actively change it. Not to mention, I am in my 60s and I know a large number of married women my age who kept their maiden names. From the younger people I know, if anything, it seems more common now to keep maiden names.

I opted to point out a way to change your name, but retain you identity. (ie anyone from my high school who looked for me on Facebook would easily find me - as my 3 names would attending HHS in the years I did.)

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Response to karynnj (Reply #165)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 10:04 PM

166. I never said in my post that it was legally required. I did say that women were doing it

and then I mentioned that it is promoted as being a "romantic" thing for women to do, something that is not touted as "romantic" for men (for men to change their surname to the surname of their bride's father).

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #166)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 12:03 AM

175. I would say it is seen as traditional - far more than romantic

Who said anything about legal - you said "automatic", which it isn't. If you do nothing, your name does not change.

I realize that is taking what you wrote literally. I now see that are are saying it is customary or even that societal pressures make it the norm (or default).

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Response to karynnj (Reply #153)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 11:59 PM

172. When Jane Roe marries John Doe, she becomes Mrs. John Doe, not Mrs. Jane Doe

 

She would still be known as Jane to her intimates, but not socially.

(Actually changing the woman's surname is stupid, because there are always a number of things that can't be changed, like diplomas, professional certifications, etc. So if one of these is called for, it needs to be accompanied by a copy of the marriage certificate.)

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #172)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 12:22 AM

179. Maybe as far as Emily Post is concerned, but that has nothing to do with what your name is

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Response to karynnj (Reply #179)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 10:13 AM

187. My daughter never changed her name for legal and professional purposes, but also uses her husband's

 

Driver's license, passport, professional certification, etc. are all still in her original name.

But she also uses her husbands surname after her first name in social situations. Her bank will cash a check made out using either surname, since it is a joint account with her husband.

There is actually no reason to use only one name. You can use aliases so long as there is no intent to defraud.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #187)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 10:53 AM

188. Completely agree with you - thanks for the example

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 08:55 PM

154. They do automatically keep their last names

 

They have to change it themselves. It doesnt just happen. When my wife and I got married 4 years ago she said she would change her name but never got around to it. As such, she still has original last name.

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Response to Charlemagne (Reply #154)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 09:06 PM

155. This is what my original post says:


I wish women in the U.S. automatically kept their last names when they marry

It's close to impossible to locate women friends from school or childhood, because marriage annihilates their name. The dissolving of the woman's name upon marriage is encouraged and associated as somehow being a romantic act.

Men can be located easily because they change nothing when they get married. They remain themselves.

Easier in Europe, where everyone keeps their last name when they get married.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 10:01 PM

164. I got a Republican survey form in the mail and they

Named me with my first name, my given middle name, and my married name. I dont know where the hell they got that because I dropped my middle name when I married. It infuriated me. Even my drivers license has my name the way i want it. My name is my first name, my maiden name, and my husband's last name (which I've never been fond of).

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #164)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 10:05 PM

167. Ew! Well, Repukes are into that. :) They love female subservience a lot!

And they have oodles of female bobbleheads that agree with them on it.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 10:07 PM

168. I never likedk that custom either. Think about it, your last name is your father's, most likely.


I've thought of changing my last name to something in nature, but at my age it just seems like too much effort.



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Response to raccoon (Reply #168)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 10:09 PM

169. That'd be fine. I think either both parents' surnames, and keep that forever like men do

or change it just to change it, as a name change. That would work.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #169)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 11:01 AM

190. Hi Sarah!

 

There is obvious reading comprehension fail by some here. Your op was done for the purpose of discussion, only. A few if not many probably don't see the name change as a big deal because they haven't had a reason to give it much in-depth thought.

I, for one, am delighted you bring up this topic. Let us not forget as well that most women have no name of their own, if you are married to a man, chances are good you have his last name. If you are not married to a man, you still have a man's last name, your father's. And so on.

I did what suited me, I legally changed my name to something that fit me many years ago. It is not my fathers name, or his fathers, or his fathers. It is MINE.

Thank you for bringing up a worthwhile subject.

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Response to Sera_Bellum (Reply #190)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 09:54 PM

233. Thanks, Sarah. It's always the same handful that come out anti when I post a pro-woman post. :)

You're quite welcome!

The vestiges of subservience are still with us and romanticized now to maintain them.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 12:01 AM

174. I hyphenated. And agree with you.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 12:15 AM

177. I took my wife's surname

Did it via court order a couple months after the wedding. Judge asked me why and I said because I work in computers and my 11 letter surname was too long, wife's is only 6.

Coming up on a decade and my father in law i think is finally used to it. Our two kids have my married name. Only trouble I run into is I have to use the maiden name line on forms and applications. Heh.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 04:41 AM

181. Getting married didn't change who I am and it didn't change my name

My "maiden name" is hyphenated and very hard for people to spell or pronounce (which is odd; neither name is 'difficult' ) and is variously filed under one name or the other - even within the same beaurocracy; my husband's name, on he other hand, is very unusual and nobody can spell or pronounce it. If had wanted to change it, it'd still be dealing with the nightmare of errors.

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Response to REP (Reply #181)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 09:56 PM

234. I'm thinking of hyphenating too - using my mom and dad's surnames with a hyphen.

That would be the closest I could come to the way it's used in many countries where women retain their own family names, rather than lose them.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #234)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 10:37 PM

245. My UNmarried name is hyphenated. If I added his, I'd have two hyphens.

I kept my real name, which is hyphenated. I'm E-P, not E-P-G.

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Response to REP (Reply #245)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 08:22 AM

250. LOL! That'd be one hyphen too many. :) nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 08:46 AM

183. In Holland, many women keep their own name

but many adopt their husband's name. A few hyphenate their names.

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Response to SwissTony (Reply #183)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:22 PM

213. In Soviet Russia, your last name keeps you!

 

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 08:57 AM

184. Agreed...I've always said I'd pretty much insist my future wife keep her family name

Last edited Mon Jan 23, 2012, 10:59 AM - Edit history (1)

Now all that's left for me to do is find a future wife...

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Response to Blue_Tires (Reply #184)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 11:51 AM

200. Don't "insist". Let her choose; it's her decision (nt)

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #200)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 12:01 PM

201. LOL my name is my own

Even if I love her what give her (or anyone) the right to step in and swipe my name? Why call yourself something you're not? Makes the same amount of sense as me taking hers...

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Response to Blue_Tires (Reply #201)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 12:03 PM

202. I never thought of it like that.

All those years ago, my wife stepped in and swiped my name.

Damn her.

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Response to Blue_Tires (Reply #184)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 09:57 PM

235. You sound awesome! I hope you find a wonderful woman. nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 10:07 AM

186. I'm in the US and I kept my maiden name -

- but I have a friend in Europe who took her husband's name. Go figure.

As far as a hyphenated name, what's up with that? IMO, that's worse than taking your spouse's name. It's as though they can't decide WHO they really are.

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Response to lynne (Reply #186)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 10:00 PM

236. Well, it's a way of doing it without receiving criticism for keeping one's name?

I'm thinking of hyphenating for the simple purpose of having my mom's name and my dad's name. In Spain everyone automatically has both surnames. Without hyphens. It's impossible here, because only one surname is permitted if one does not hyphenate.

As for adding the husband's name using a hyphen, that's still taking on the husband's name, but at least those women are making an attempt at keeping their own family name, identity, or what-have-you.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 10:57 AM

189. My wife took my name with pleasure. nt.

 

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 11:13 AM

191. Then who gets to name the children?

 

We did not have that problem since we gave our children their own last names. The oldest is Busty McAwesomePants and the little guy is Irony McAwesomePants.

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Response to AngryAmish (Reply #191)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 10:01 PM

237. I explained on post #22. :) nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 11:38 AM

195. I detested my maiden name and happily took my husband's name.

It is all about personal choice. No one should be looked down upon either way in my opinion. There is also people who combine both their names when they get married which is great too. But personally, I couldn't wait to get rid of my maiden name. It was pretty awful.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 11:44 AM

198. "Easier in Europe, where everyone keeps their last name when they get married". WRONG

Maybe in Spain, as you wrote, but this is not common. In France, per the wiki you quoted, it is like in USA. You keep your same birth name on SS card, drivers lic, other legal things unless you change it. However, common usage women often use the same last name as their husband.

Other than that inaccuracy, my self, my husband, my child, all have different last names, which made it difficult dealing with an idiotic school person yrs ago who kept insisting on sending stuff to my child's biological non-custodial parent since they had the same last name.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 11:51 AM

199. But...but, in the Bible, Paul says that wives should submit to their husbands.


Paul never married.

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Response to Zorra (Reply #199)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 10:03 PM

238. He sure did say that, didn't he? Or so we're told. I'm reading a book that

claims the Bible books are mostly forgeries. lol

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 12:07 PM

203. Should the children still take their father's name?

 


My sister has kept her ex-husband's last name because her kids have that last name.


If women were to start keeping their maiden name after marriage I think it might make more sense for the kids to take the mother's name since there is a greater tendency for them to stay with her if the marriage breaks up.

I'm not against the idea, still kicking it around.

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Response to Motown_Johnny (Reply #203)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 12:21 PM

209. It is more reliable for geneology for children to take the mother's surname

 

Apparently about 10% are not genetically related to the mother's husband.

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Response to Motown_Johnny (Reply #203)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 10:04 PM

240. Or have the names of both parents. nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #240)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 10:37 PM

246. did you ever hear the one about doubling a penny each day

 

and in a month you have a million dollars?


The first generation would have 2 last names. The second would have 4, the third 8, the forth 16......


Doesn't seem practical.

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Response to Motown_Johnny (Reply #246)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 08:21 AM

249. LOL! Spain has been doing it forever, as have ALL LATIN NATIONS

Portugal, Italy, etc. etc.

I wasn't born here. I recall my shock when I was told that I would no longer use my mother's surname, only my father's. You could've knocked me over. I honestly didn't get it. What kind of place used only the men's names???

Then when I grew up and got married, my husband was all romantic about the fact that I would dump my father's name and take his father's surname. Ahem. He actually TOLD ME THIS. I didn't get it, but since all my other female friends that had gotten married took their husband's father's surnames, and my husband was feeling oh so romantic about it, well, hell, I changed my name to that of his father's. Ahem. It sucked and I shouldn't have done it. He didn't change his name to my mother's surname.

Anywho, that was the second time I lost a surname.

When I got divorced, I RAN, not walked, to the courthouse. There, I filled out a form, paid my money, and voila! I at least had my surname back.

A few years later, I moved to Spain (where all my grandparents were born). Because I worked there, I had to complete all kinds of forms. The forms were all like this:


First name Father's Surname Mother's Surname

That's the way all names are there.

It was rather a beautiful moment for me to have come full circle, and returned once again to my original name. I loved it!

Then I returned here, and once again had to dump my mother's name. Only father's surnames needed, thank you very much.

And that is my bio, as told by the usage of my name.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #249)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 05:34 PM

269. so you take both grandfather's names,

 

and ignore your grandmother's last names?



It seems like the same system, one generation removed.

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Response to Motown_Johnny (Reply #269)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 06:13 PM

270. Don't go giving me any ideas! I might act on them! lol I had some fantastic, kick-ass grandmas nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 12:08 PM

204. I have no problem with that.

 

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 12:22 PM

210. Perhaps they don't want to "locate" you.

Annihilates? As a woman, please stop giving women a bad rap on this board.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 12:37 PM

211. They DO automatically keep their last name


Positive effort is required to change it.

If a woman does not seek to change her name after marriage, it doesn't change.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #211)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 03:39 PM

218. Seriously. I don't know why this isn't understood. IF you want to start using another name, you can

But if you don't actively start using a new name, it doesn't change.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #218)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 03:49 PM

221. You don't know why this isn't understood?


I could take a guess.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #221)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 04:03 PM

224. Funny how "we've always done it" and/or societal expectations get taken as how we must

Or did you mean I am clueless?

My 1st husband & I had a long talk after being married when I didn't change my name. I was young and uppity, told him it was my name, why change it? He said he'd always wanted someone to take his name. Told him to get a dog. Finally I gave in, told him I'd use my surname as middle name, his surname as last. His response was "you can't do that!". We didn't last long.

I've thought of changing my last name to something for me rather than my father's father's father's father's....surname, but have had this one long enough and it is just me.

I guess people get used to how things are and assume that they must be that way, but there have been enough different name things around now for long enough that I don't understand why some people don't understand that there is the legal way to petition and name change, then there is the simply using another name for name change. And that married name changes are typically the second. You need to actively send in your legal marriage certificate to get your driver's license or ss card name changed, and petition through the court also.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:16 PM

212. I wish I'd kept mine

.

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Response to stuntcat (Reply #212)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 10:06 PM

241. I took my husband's name because it was the thing everyone did.

I knew no one who didn't.

Of course, I'm from a background in which women do not take the husband's surname, but keep their own, so I did think it was rather odd. When I divorced, I practically ran to court to do a name change back to my own. Easy-peasy. Fill out a form, pay a small amount, done!

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:37 PM

214. They do. The woman has to change it, otherwise her name stays the same.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:45 PM

215. In a way, it's more anti-men

 

Women get the opportunity to change their name, we don't. No fair, I don't like my last name.

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Response to Ter (Reply #215)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 08:15 PM

226. You can change your name just as easily as any woman

My brother changed his last name right after he turned 18.

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Response to Ter (Reply #215)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 09:47 PM

231. Name changes consist of filling out a form at the courthouse. I did it. nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 01:51 PM

216. Seems to me that your major gripe about this

Is that it is inconvenient for YOU because you can't look up somebody.

I believe in choice.

I dropped my middle name and inserted my original last name. The people I truly care about know my name. I have not lost my identity.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 03:48 PM

220. My wife doesn't use my last name.

She didn't have to do anything to keep her original last name, just not change it. Bingo, donr deal. Doesn't bother me in the least, although occasionally there are times I have to explain that we are indeed married in some business matters. Not that big of a deal really.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #220)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 10:08 PM

242. Exactly. It really isn't a complication for people to keep their last name. In fact, it's

easier because women maintain their same identity.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 03:50 PM

222. My wife did.

 

Though admittedly she did because going to the bank, the DMV, City Hall and all the other hoops you have to jump through to change your name and retain the ability to drive, access your bank account, vote, get mail, etc. was more of a deciding factor than any sense of feminism or familial pride.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #222)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 11:16 AM

258. Yep, I remember when I got married and became Mrs. (Put last name of my husband's father), I then

had to go to the local driver's license office and change my driver's license too.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 03:51 PM

223. A guy I went to school with changed his name and took his wifes last name.

I think it was more a case of not liking his last name though.

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Response to yourout (Reply #223)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 11:14 AM

257. I did a name change in court. One doesn't really need an atty. It's easy as filling out a form. nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 07:45 PM

225. Women in the US do automatically keep their last name

You have to fill out paperwork to change your name. Do nothing, and the name doesn't change.

My wife kept her last name. Makes things easier. We actually thought about both changing our name to something different, but we couldn't agree on a name we both liked that wouldn't freak our families out

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Response to slutticus (Reply #225)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 08:17 PM

227. I do think Mr & Mrs Slutticus does have a nice ring to it. n/t

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Response to slutticus (Reply #225)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 11:12 AM

256. :) Yes, freaking the family out would not do at all. I try not to do too much of that to mine.

They have enough on their plate with me being the feisty one. lol

And yep, women are not held at gunpoint to change their name, but then I never said that. I said I wished women would keep their own name.

I did say, though, that nearly all women opt for the name change upon marriage, because the tradition from the days when women were chattel has been kept. No longer is it a matter of law. Now it's kept by being romanticized.

Here's an interesting excerpt from an explanation on colonial women's (lack of) rights:

Colonial American women's rights were restricted by the patriarchal view of English Common Law. As in England, women were viewed as chattel and had no individual legal rights. However, American frontier life and the small communities allowed some Colonial women to have more legal and personal rights in the Colonies than in England.

...Husband and wife were considered "one person at law" to be controlled by the husband. A wife and her children were a husband's possessions. However, some wives had a degree of financial independence from their husbands through dowries.


Read more: About Colonial Women's Rights | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_4571155_colonial-womens-rights.html#ixzz1kOPOQSLm

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 08:31 PM

228. I remained myself

even when I changed my name from my father's name to my first husband's name back to my father's name and now to my second husband's name.

A name is just a name. I don't think of it as anything other than a moniker. I use my maiden name as a middle name. People have had no trouble locating me.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 08:39 AM

255. If the Wife keeps her name, which name do the kids get?

Our son took my last name, which is something the school system still has problems with and he has been in the system for 10 years. We get letters addressed to the wrong last name more than we get mail addressed to the right name

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Response to krawhitham (Reply #255)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 07:29 AM

288. Before I gave up on trying to stay pregnant for 9 months, we agreed that a boy

--would have my husband's last name and a girl would have mine.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 11:21 AM

259. I do too

 

And when I marry my best friend, she and I are going to keep our own last names, hyphenated.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #259)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 11:23 AM

260. Good! :) nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 11:24 AM

261. I wondered this: how do gay folks deal with names and marriage in general? Anybody?

Do they exchange names? Do they generally hyphenate names? Do they do nothing at all and just keep their names?

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 11:24 AM

262. I'll be keeping mine but only because his is too common.

And if/when we have kids, they'll have my last name.

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Response to ceile (Reply #262)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 11:34 AM

263. Cool. It's interesting what people decide to do. nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 11:34 AM

264. My elaborate system to resolve this issue once and for all:

Bob Smith marries Susan Jones. They hyphenate accordingly: Bob Smith-Jones and Susan Jones-Smith.

When they have a child, the order is determined by gender. So, baby John will legally be John Smith-Jones; baby Carol will legally be Carol Jones-Smith.

When John or Carol marry, they drop the opposite-gender portion and the process restarts (e.g., John Smith-(spouse's surname); Carol Jones-(spouse's surname)).

This prevents ever lengthening names and allows everyone to more easily trace their lineages.

Clunky but I was bored at some point in the last few years...

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Response to Hosnon (Reply #264)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 11:49 AM

265. Cool ideas! nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 04:01 PM

268. to be clear, are you advocating to remove the rights of women who wish to change their names?

I'm a little confused by what you mean by 'automatic'. When we got married, my wife kept her name because she never filled out the form to change it, so I believe the current system is that by DEFAULT, women keep their name unless they explicitly request to change it.

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Response to maggiesfarmer (Reply #268)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 06:17 PM

271. Right? lol It's a remnant from when women were subservient -

Here you go:

Colonial American women's rights were restricted by the patriarchal view of English Common Law. As in England, women were viewed as chattel and had no individual legal rights.

Yet once a woman married, all of her rights and properties were governed by her husband.
Husband and wife were considered "one person at law" to be controlled by the husband. A wife and her children were a husband's possessions. However, some wives had a degree of financial independence from their husbands through dowries.

Read more: About Colonial Women's Rights | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_4571155_colonial-womens-rights.html#ixzz1kQ8a9800

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #271)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 06:28 PM

272. let me rephrase, since you didn't answer my question

are you advocating that if a woman might desire to take her husband's name, that she no longer be allowed to?

I understand the origins of the concept. I also understand cultural tradition. my wife didn't take my name, but if someone wants to, I would support her right to do so. actually, in general I support someone's right to change their name, not just in the case of marriage.

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Response to maggiesfarmer (Reply #272)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 06:35 PM

274. Re-read my original post, and then re-read what I just responded to you. nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #274)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 06:58 PM

280. I did. again. I'll try once more

what do you mean when you say 'automatically kept their last names' and how does this notion differ from today's where, by default, a woman does keep her name unless she files paperwork requesting it be changed?

are you advocating that people should not be allowed to change their names?

neither your OP nor your response addresses either of those questions directly. if they did indirectly, there must have been a few logical steps that I was failing to take to connect those points. yes, I understand society encourages the practice. yes, I realize that Europe has a different, simpler system. yes, I understand that the practice stems from repressive historical roots. I understand and generally agree with each of those points -- but none of them answers my questions. thanks in advance for your patience!

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Response to maggiesfarmer (Reply #280)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 10:08 PM

281. Return to my original post. Obviously, you are fishing for something that's not there

And if you are, come out with it rather than beating around the bush to prove some point you're just dying for the opportunity to make.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #281)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 07:21 AM

287. no, I'm not fishing. please take my questions at face value

I'm also not trying to get into a flame way. I've read a many of your posts, and while I don't agree with all your opinions, I generally respect the thought that went into your comments. I've asked two very straightforward questions multiple times and you keep referring me to your OP, which doesn't address either directly. I'm genuinely trying to understand this issue.

1. how does "automatically kept their names" differ from what we have today? if you've answered that questions anywhere, please reply with quote. again, I'm not fishing, not trying to get to any secondary point; just want to understand what change it is that you're advocating for. I'm not clear what you mean by 'automatically'. As I stated in above posts, women in the US today do keep their names upon marriage unless they request to have it changed. If I'm mistaken here, please correct me.

2. today, people have a legal option to change their names. your comments seem to imply that you don't want people to be able to change their names, citing the difficulty in tracking down old acquaintances and the simplicity of the European system. I'm trying to figure out if you're advocating to legislate that option away or only advocating for social change without legislation. again, I haven't seen you respond to that point -- if you have, please reply with quote.

I just reread your previous comments for at least the 4th time, and copied them below. I am highly confident that neither speaks to what you mean by "automatically" keeping names and neither addresses whether or not your advocating for legal change.

OP


It's close to impossible to locate women friends from school or childhood, because marriage annihilates their name. The dissolving of the woman's name upon marriage is encouraged and associated as somehow being a romantic act.

Men can be located easily because they change nothing when they get married. They remain themselves.

Easier in Europe, where everyone keeps their last name when they get married.


REPLY:


Here you go:

Colonial American women's rights were restricted by the patriarchal view of English Common Law. As in England, women were viewed as chattel and had no individual legal rights.

Yet once a woman married, all of her rights and properties were governed by her husband.
Husband and wife were considered "one person at law" to be controlled by the husband. A wife and her children were a husband's possessions. However, some wives had a degree of financial independence from their husbands through dowries.

Read more: About Colonial Women's Rights | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_4571155_colonial-womens-rights.html#ixzz1kQ8a9800

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 06:29 PM

273. It should be up to the person

 

in most cases, the female.

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Response to bigwillq (Reply #273)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 06:36 PM

275. That goes without saying, since females are the ones encouraged to take the groom's father's surname

and to abandon their own.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #275)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 06:38 PM

276. Then you can't fault the folks

 

who choose to change names. Sorry that it inconveniences you.

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Response to bigwillq (Reply #276)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 06:40 PM

277. I do wonder if men were "encouraged" to take the name of the bride's father, what they would do. nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #277)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 06:44 PM

278. I hope they would do

 

what is best for them.

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Response to bigwillq (Reply #278)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 10:10 PM

282. But the issue is that they are not encouraged to drop their name nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #282)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 10:42 PM

284. No one forces anyone to do something they don't want to do

 

If a woman doesn't want to change her name, she shouldn't.
I don't feel like it's encouraged. It's a free country.

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Response to bigwillq (Reply #284)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 12:32 AM

285. Did I say force? I said encouraged. They're encouraged to retain the

tradition from when women were chattel. It's romanticized.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #285)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 01:22 AM

286. And maybe some women like it

 

Again, it should be up to them. They may be encouraged, but ultimately the choice is up to them.

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Response to bigwillq (Reply #286)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 02:17 PM

289. I'm sure. And perhaps it should be encouraged of men (to take the bride's father's surname). nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #289)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 02:40 PM

290. Fine by me

 

If that's what the couple chooses to do.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 06:56 PM

279. I will keep my maiden name and add my husband's name...no hypen.

 

I am too old to relinquish my maiden name....but have no problem adding my guy's name.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 10:25 PM

283. I have no problems with a woman keeping their last names but if they do/did would it only annihitate

the husbands name instead? When a child is born would their last name be their mothers/ ( which actually makes sense) in which case you are only changing form " dissolving of the woman's name " to dissolving of the man name " when a child is born?

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Response to Synicus Maximus (Reply #283)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 10:35 PM

293. In Spain, the child takes both last names, mom's and dad's. nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 10:33 PM

292. Here's a really good explanation of names in the country of my 4 grandparents:

Here's an American living in Spain, explaining the Spanish naming system to other Americans. He's wrong in some things he says. For example, he says people don't have middle names in Spain, while they certainly do. Also, he clearly hates the whole naming system over there, and makes it clear that he's not fond of 'feminists,' but at least it provides a basic explanation of how it works:

...There are four basic rules to surname inheritance in Spain:

Everyone has two last names.
Your first last name is your fatherís first last name.
Your second last name is your motherís first last name.
Women do not change their last names when they get married.

Thatís it. Thatís the whole system. To Spaniards, the fact that women in some countries change their last names when they marry seems like a loss of identity. ďHow can you just give up who you are like that?Ē, they say.

Occasionally, they will play the feminist card and claim that giving children only their fatherís surname is chauvinistic and that the Spanish system isnít because it values the surname of the mother, but if you look closely, the Spanish system is only valuing the motherís fatherís surname. The truth is that womenís surnames do get lost in Spain, it just takes another generation to do so...


http://erikras.com/2009/01/28/whats-the-deal-with-last-names-in-spain/

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 10:39 PM

294. I kept my name...both times ;)

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Response to KathieG (Reply #294)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 10:42 PM

295. Good for you! I plan on doing the same. nt

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