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Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:26 PM

 

Why is school security taken so lightly?

Here is a partial list of things we protect with armed, trained law enforcement: Our politicians, our courts, our airports and our military bases.

Here is a partial list of things we protect with armed, trained security: Our money, nuclear power plants and other critical infrastructure.

So why do we leave our children virtually defenseless against mentally disturbed monsters?

And it is not just the mentally deranged monster that we need to consider, we also have foreign enemies that have no objection to targeting children: http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/wrjp39ch.html

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Reply Why is school security taken so lightly? (Original post)
Lurks Often Dec 2012 OP
PoliticAverse Dec 2012 #1
Ron Green Dec 2012 #2
Zoeisright Dec 2012 #3
Lurks Often Dec 2012 #7
earthside Dec 2012 #4
boston bean Dec 2012 #5
Lurks Often Dec 2012 #8
zen_bohemian Dec 2012 #11
krawhitham Dec 2012 #91
proud2BlibKansan Dec 2012 #6
Lurks Often Dec 2012 #9
proud2BlibKansan Dec 2012 #12
Lurks Often Dec 2012 #25
proud2BlibKansan Dec 2012 #29
Lurks Often Dec 2012 #36
elehhhhna Dec 2012 #40
zen_bohemian Dec 2012 #42
progressoid Dec 2012 #56
Lurks Often Dec 2012 #58
NewJeffCT Dec 2012 #66
Lurks Often Dec 2012 #83
Major Nikon Dec 2012 #82
Lurks Often Dec 2012 #84
krawhitham Dec 2012 #92
pnwmom Dec 2012 #10
lob1 Dec 2012 #28
JohLast Dec 2012 #70
tawadi Dec 2012 #13
proud2BlibKansan Dec 2012 #30
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #51
TheMadMonk Dec 2012 #69
Chemisse Dec 2012 #32
Throckmorton Dec 2012 #55
NewJeffCT Dec 2012 #67
tawadi Dec 2012 #72
NewJeffCT Dec 2012 #73
tawadi Dec 2012 #99
Igel Dec 2012 #14
Posteritatis Dec 2012 #15
WinkyDink Dec 2012 #16
Lurks Often Dec 2012 #20
sufrommich Dec 2012 #17
etherealtruth Dec 2012 #18
Avalux Dec 2012 #19
Lurks Often Dec 2012 #21
muriel_volestrangler Dec 2012 #46
Lurks Often Dec 2012 #59
progressoid Dec 2012 #77
Lurks Often Dec 2012 #85
elehhhhna Dec 2012 #22
Lurks Often Dec 2012 #38
Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #23
ananda Dec 2012 #26
Lurks Often Dec 2012 #65
cthulu2016 Dec 2012 #24
Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #27
Lurks Often Dec 2012 #60
Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #62
Lurks Often Dec 2012 #86
rDigital Dec 2012 #31
Rex Dec 2012 #33
SoCalDem Dec 2012 #34
Nye Bevan Dec 2012 #35
countryjake Dec 2012 #37
Lurks Often Dec 2012 #39
countryjake Dec 2012 #41
duffyduff Dec 2012 #43
Berserker Dec 2012 #50
Lurks Often Dec 2012 #68
countryjake Dec 2012 #71
oldhippie Dec 2012 #78
countryjake Dec 2012 #79
oldhippie Dec 2012 #87
countryjake Dec 2012 #96
oldhippie Dec 2012 #97
countryjake Dec 2012 #98
Earth_First Dec 2012 #44
Berserker Dec 2012 #48
Lurks Often Dec 2012 #63
Dems to Win Dec 2012 #45
Berserker Dec 2012 #47
Liberal_in_LA Dec 2012 #49
kestrel91316 Dec 2012 #52
Lurks Often Dec 2012 #88
dionysus Dec 2012 #53
Marrah_G Dec 2012 #54
salin Dec 2012 #57
Control-Z Dec 2012 #61
Generic Brad Dec 2012 #64
Lightbulb_on Dec 2012 #74
JDPriestly Dec 2012 #75
Lurks Often Dec 2012 #95
Agnosticsherbet Dec 2012 #76
Hekate Dec 2012 #80
City Lights Dec 2012 #81
Remmah2 Dec 2012 #90
Skidmore Dec 2012 #89
Iggo Dec 2012 #93
Silent3 Dec 2012 #94

Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:30 PM

1. The link http://www.johnstons...m/wrjp39ch.html doesn't work. n/t

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:31 PM

2. I can't get your link to work, but I will say that

there are too many armed, trained forces in children's lives already. School ought to be human and permeable.

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:32 PM

3. Another stupid straw man argument.

It's the guns. Period.

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #3)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:52 PM

7. Yawn. I can see you are unable to discuss this rationally n/t

 

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:37 PM

4. It isn't where I live.

But I'm in Colorado and maybe because of Columbine school security is taken seriously.

On the other hand, we lose to the gun-crazies if we give-in to paranoia and schools should not be turned into armed fortresses and look like prisons.

Armed guards everywhere as a solution is admitting that more guns are the answer.

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:38 PM

5. Kids shouldn't have to go to a prison like fortress to learn.

How's about them apples...

I refuse to accept this as a normal way to live.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #5)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:53 PM

8. Then extending that logic

 

we shoudn't be protecting our politicians, nuclear power plants and other sensitive areas with armed people either. Or are the children just not as important?

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Response to boston bean (Reply #5)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 01:01 PM

11. I agree, they shouldn't, but in light of the school shootings

I would rather my kids go to a fortress where they can learn in a safe atmosphere. The protection of our children should be priority one.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 10:53 AM

91. At least they will come home

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:38 PM

6. It's not taken lightly at all.

You can no longer walk into a school through an unlocked door. All visitors are screened, and in many schools, they are asked to show ID.

Have you noticed many schools are no longer used for polling places during elections? That's due to security.

Schools tightened up security following 9/11. Children are most certainly not virtually defenseless.

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Response to proud2BlibKansan (Reply #6)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:58 PM

9. The events in Newtown, CT

 

and other past school shootings rather strongly indicate that despite these changes they are still very vulnerable.


And CT still uses it schools as polling places and when I voted in November, there was no visible security or police presence.

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Response to Lurks Often (Reply #9)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 01:10 PM

12. A lunatic broke into the school.

Other than removing the glass from the door, there isn't much that could have been done to prevent him from getting into the school.

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Response to proud2BlibKansan (Reply #12)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:44 PM

25. I disagree

 

I think there should have been armed, trained first responders on site, who's sole purpose would be to protect the children.

And while I pray it never happens, the possibility exists of foreign terrorists attacking a school and if that happens it will be hundreds dead.

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Response to Lurks Often (Reply #25)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 04:03 PM

29. We don't have the number of first responders necessary to be in every school.

And we don't have the resources to hire that many additional officers.

I also don't want armed cops in elementary schools. No way. It's bad enough they are in our high schools.

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Response to proud2BlibKansan (Reply #29)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 05:35 PM

36. I can see we won't agree

 

I think hiring and training people and paying them comparably to police officers is a good idea. Make it a GOOD job, that pays well, with good benefits.

The training would be modified since certainly the school officer wouldn't need to know traffic law and other things that that the standard police officer needs to know and I would probably add some child psychology courses.

Their purpose would be to protect the students and the school, not to go after the students for minor crap. Kind of an armed, trained social worker.

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Response to Lurks Often (Reply #36)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 06:13 PM

40. what tax increase is going to fund this?

 



i get your point but do we need israelistyle guards everywhere? do we want to need that? so the guy stands outside the school and shoots people.

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Response to Lurks Often (Reply #36)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 06:36 PM

42. I actually agree, campus police presence could be a plus

If I had a child in elementary school, it wouldn't bother me one bit to have campus police presence. We must ensure our children are safe in the schools.

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Response to Lurks Often (Reply #36)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 08:32 PM

56. You've not seen a school budget lately have you.

Most schools are cutting services for lack of money. There are nearly 100,000 public schools in America. Where exactly are you getting the money to pay for these armed guards?

How about we instead stop turning to more guns as an answer to our problems.

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Response to progressoid (Reply #56)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 08:57 PM

58. We'll need to find the money somewhere

 

or aren't the children worth spending the money?

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Response to progressoid (Reply #56)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 09:07 PM

66. I think it's actually more than 100,000 public schools

and, you know if it's in public schools, eventually some republicans will push for money for private school security, too.

So, let's just say that's it one security person per school - that's 100,000 cops that would need to be hired. Say, $50,000 per year, and it's $5 billion. Then, maybe another $15,000/year in benefits, and you're up to $6.5 billion/yeaR.

That's only a bare minimum. Sandy Hook was a relatively small school of 600-650 students. What about sprawling schools that have 2-3-4 times that number of kids in several buildings?

And, figure that each school district probably needs at least a few extra as backup in case one person is sick, takes vacation, etc.

So, you're probably at 200,000 cops now, and $13 billion. Not exactly chump change.

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Response to NewJeffCT (Reply #66)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 10:24 AM

83. Start by cutting foreign aid

 

I don't see why we should be giving Pakistan, Egypt and Afghanistan money (they were the first to spring to mind) when they don't even like us in the first place. I'm sure I can add to that list if needed.

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Response to Lurks Often (Reply #25)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:28 AM

82. School shootings are incredibly rare

...and contrary to what some might think they aren't on the rise. Putting an armed guard(s) at every school would be an enormous expense and mass murder in schools isn't even a blip on the radar when it comes to the most likely causes of death among children. I would venture to guess you could spend 1/10th of the money you are suggesting on suicide prevention and save more than 100 times the number of children if saving children's' lives was the goal. There are some poor areas in the US where infant mortality rivals many 3rd world countries. I'd venture to guess you could spend far less there and save far more.

Putting an armed guard(s) at schools is no guarantee of safety either. Many school mass shootings are perpetrated by students who would already have access to the school. Someone who is not authorized to be there could also take out the guard first, which defeats that security measure.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #82)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 10:34 AM

84. I tend to agree with virtually

 

everything you said, excepting my following comments.

There is no 100% guarantee, but I think we can drastically increase the chances of preventing the next school shooting or at the very least minimize the number of deaths by having an armed, trained person on site, preferably one that combines the armed training of a police officer or air marshal with the training to recognize and perform basic counseling to troubled students.

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Response to proud2BlibKansan (Reply #6)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 10:55 AM

92. At my kid's school

All doors but one are locked but they open from the inside

You have to go in the main entrance, but from that point you can go anywhere you want

They have a cop on the grounds at the beginning and end of the school day

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:58 PM

10. The principal had just installed a new security system. She wasn't taking it lightly. n/t

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #10)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:51 PM

28. Not only that, the new security system was considered the gold standard

of security systems, and other schools were planning to follow their lead. I heard that on MSNBC, but I forgot which program.

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Response to lob1 (Reply #28)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 09:21 PM

70. Then the "gold standard" needs to be changed.

 

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 01:11 PM

13. We have guards at banks, but not most schools

Nuff said.

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Response to tawadi (Reply #13)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 04:04 PM

30. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ vs our children

Guess which we value more?

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Response to proud2BlibKansan (Reply #30)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 08:20 PM

51. +1

 

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Response to proud2BlibKansan (Reply #30)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 09:18 PM

69. It's not what WE value more.

 

It's what the criminals are more likely to want.

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Response to tawadi (Reply #13)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 04:29 PM

32. There are no guards at the banks I go to.

And I am thankful there are no guards at the school where I work.

My town can barely afford to keep the art and music programs intact from year to year. What would we have to give up to pay for a guard?

And what would the children have to give up, walking by an armed guard every morning?

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Response to tawadi (Reply #13)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 08:31 PM

55. Actually most banks no longer have guards.

There are 11 banks in my town, count from memory so I may have missed a few, and not a one has a guard. Even the one that I use almost daily, which has been robbed 3 times in two years.

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Response to tawadi (Reply #13)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 09:08 PM

67. Most guards are private security

if a bank has them.

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Response to NewJeffCT (Reply #67)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 09:35 PM

72. Hope you didn't know any of the vicitms/families personally since you're from CT. eom

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Response to tawadi (Reply #72)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 10:31 PM

73. most schools don't even have enough money

to have an adequate staff of teachers. Are you going to cut back further on teachers to hire security?

If Republicans are willing to tank the economy to protect millionaires from paying a few thousand extra per year in taxes, do you think they'd raise taxes to spend billions per year to hire security guards for schools?

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Response to NewJeffCT (Reply #73)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 09:02 PM

99. Were you responding to my post above?

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 01:33 PM

14. Security varies.

Every school district I've heard of around here, though, has its own police force and stationed armed policemen at every campus.

Some lock all their doors at the first bell. Some don't. (Those that don't usually can't. My school consists of 4-5 different buildings and a bunch of temp trailers.)

All have anonymous intruder tests, where the state sends in random people who interact with teachers and staff to see how long it takes to spot and corral the intruder.

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 01:39 PM

15. School security is generally taken very seriously.

If you look beyond emotive headlines and don't base your standards on the most extreme edge casse possible (not that I trust people to do that), schools are generally some of the safest places a kid can be.

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 01:40 PM

16. What are you talking about? The killer somehow got PAST security.

 

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #16)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:36 PM

20. The only security was some locked doors

 

I hardly think that is sufficent

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 01:42 PM

17. I'm sure we could turn our schools into armed fortresses.

It's done in other 1st world countries right? Wait, it's not? Hmmm, I wonder why the US needs these special security measures.

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 01:45 PM

18. Is it?

I am not very knowledgeable about security ... from my perspective, security is a lot tighter than it was when I was young (graduated from HS in 1980)

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 01:48 PM

19. Hey Lurks Often - more guns are not the answer.

I don't want schools to be on permanent lockdown, I don't want teachers to be soldiers. Teaching our children to be afraid will only breed more violence.

Our entire society, the world, needs to change from one of fear, hate and destruction to acceptance, love and creation.

You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.

The human race has been locked in a dance of fighting each other since the beginning of our existence. We are destroying ourselves, and we need to change if we want to continue to survive and not be the cause of our own extinction.

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Response to Avalux (Reply #19)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:37 PM

21. You're right you are a dreamer

 

It's a nice dream too, unfortunately it's not one I see coming true in our lifetimes, the human race simply hasn't evolved that far and I question whether it ever will.

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Response to Lurks Often (Reply #21)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 08:12 PM

46. "The human race" certainly has evolved far enough to not need armed guards in schools

It's just that American gun love is holding the one country back.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #46)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 08:59 PM

59. tell that to the Israel or Afghanistan or Iraq n/t

 

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Response to Lurks Often (Reply #59)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 11:35 PM

77. Oh good.

So we should emulate those places?



I'm out.



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Response to progressoid (Reply #77)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 10:36 AM

85. In general no we shouldn't

 

but we should recognize that the foremost priority is to actively protect our children.

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:38 PM

22. also need armed sec at : church, mall, theatre,

 

the list is endless.

If you think a min.-wage security guard is gonna sacrifice his life for your kids, you are watching too much tv

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Response to elehhhhna (Reply #22)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 05:37 PM

38. See my post#36 n/t

 

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:38 PM

23. It's only taken lightly when the school is in nice neighborhoods. n/t

 

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #23)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:48 PM

26. That is true.

Upper class schools have very light security.
That's the kind of school Sandy Hook was.

I think it's interesting that the massacres seem to
happen in affluent areas, committed by affluent kids.

I guess the poor and the minorities are targeted by
law enforcement and criminal justice to the point
that they are mostly in prison and really don't care
to kill the young and innocent among them.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #23)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 09:06 PM

65. It probably varies from state to state,

 

but there is likely quite a bit truth to your statement

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:40 PM

24. I reject the premise

School security is not, in 2012 America, taken lightly.

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:49 PM

27. Because we shouldn't have to defend schools like military bases.

 

We could instead demilitarize our citizenry. That way it would be difficult rather than trivially easy for whacked out people to commit mass murder.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #27)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 09:02 PM

60. I don't see your idea as especially realistic

 

, I have at least proposed a reasonable practical solution.

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Response to Lurks Often (Reply #60)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 09:03 PM

62. Yeah why cure the disease when we can put a bandaid on it?

 

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #62)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 10:43 AM

86. Because curing the disease

 

will require addressing the social and economic pressures that cause crime and identifying and treating the mental illnesses that lead to mass shootings. All of these things will take time and money and patience and cooperation.

In the meantime we need to actively protect our children.

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 04:06 PM

31. We have armed guards protecting our money and riches. Our children are far more valuable.

 

Protect them better than money is.

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 04:30 PM

33. Why was port security so lax before 9/11?

 

Nobody acts on these things until tragedy occurs.

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 04:42 PM

34. Possibly because so many peeople at the upper levels (who make decisions)

are from an era (when THEY attended school), when school;s were fun places to be. Parents rarely worried about their kids at school. A fire was about the most fearsome event that anyone could imagine.

Small neighborhood schools were not barricaded encampments. Playgrounds and equipment were available to neighborhood kids even after school & on weekends.

Teachers were like "2nd Moms" (all the teaching staff were women in every school I attended until junior high...3 men teachers)..Parents and kids were not fearful because about the worst thing that could happen was as jungle jim accident or a kid getting hit by a car while walking to or home from school(no crossing guards back then)

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 05:13 PM

35. And if the next mass murder is in a playground, or on a beach,

I suppose you will ask "why is playground security taken so lightly?" or "why is beach security taken so lightly"?

Should we try to secure and guard every location where multiple people gather? Or should we try to do something about the weapons that enable people in these places to be gunned down en masse?

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 05:36 PM

37. Because school security isn't the problem, lack of gun regulation is.

One of the cable news programs highlighted this gem from Twitter on Friday, the same day that our nation began mourning its sixteenth mass shooting of 2012:

One "shoe bomber" & we all take off our shoes in airports. 62 mass shootings last 30 years, 7 this year but no gun law changes. @ravenb


I believe that you are being simplistic by implying that our schools are the only area where normal citizens might find themselves at risk from the dangers of "mentally disturbed monsters". And where is that qualifying adjective which you so conveniently left out...why not "gun-toting mentally disturbed monsters"?

Here is a list that may dispute your claim that lax security where our children are concerned is the question that needs to be raised at this time. These shootings occurred during just the first few months of this one year, 2012:


February 22, 2012—Five people were killed in at a Korean health spa in Norcross, Georgia, when a man got into an argument and opened fire inside the facility.

February 26, 2012—Multiple gunmen began firing into a nightclub crowd in Jackson, Tennessee, killing one person and injuring 20 others.

February 27, 2012—Three students at Chardon High School in rural Ohio were killed when a classmate opened fire.

March 8, 2012—Two people were killed and seven wounded at a psychiatric hospital in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, when a gunman entered the hospital with two semiautomatic handguns and began firing.

March 31, 2012—A gunman opened fire on a crowd of mourners at a North Miami, Florida, funeral home, killing two people and injuring 12 others.


For the complete sad record, read the rest of the list here:

Sixteen US Mass Shootings Happened in 2012, Leaving at Least 88 Dead
http://www.thenation.com/blog/171774/fifteen-us-mass-shootings-happened-2012-84-dead#

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Response to countryjake (Reply #37)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 05:44 PM

39. People are at risk everyday, everywhere in the United States

 

it has always been that way and it will be that way until long after all of us are dead.

Children are not normal citizens and I believe we have a special obligation to make sure that we protect them as best we can and I think the best way is to make the schools more difficult to break into and to protect our children with more then passive measures.

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Response to Lurks Often (Reply #39)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 06:30 PM

41. And placing a gazillion more guns in each of our schools is ass-backward.

Turning our schools into little forts all across this country is not conducive to the ideal of an effective education.

Our Constitution guarantees each of us the pursuit of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Why do you think some form of severe security measures are necessary when by their very nature, each child's school is meant to be a safe sanctuary of learning, bright positive places to nurture and help a person grow?

I think that we have a special obligation to make sure that the safety of every little child and also every single citizen should now become this country's priority. And I certainly do not believe that adding even more guns into that mix should ever be the method of meeting that obligation.

Guns do not make anyone safer. Tighter security is merely slapping a bandaid on a symptom when the actual problem is that the rights of a few have been superseding the safety of most of the people of this nation.

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Response to countryjake (Reply #41)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 06:51 PM

43. The most dangerous place for a child to be is in his or her own home

 

I don't want a society of paranoids. The last thing we need are police in elementary schools.

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Response to duffyduff (Reply #43)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 08:20 PM

50. Tell that to the parents in Newtown

 

Then get back to us.

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Response to countryjake (Reply #41)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 09:12 PM

68. Sucks to be you then

 

because courts and legislation are currently supporting the gun owners, not the gun grabbers and that is not likely to change anytime soon.


I have come up with a practical solution to protecting children, one that with a little effort, can be in place in most schools inside of a year.

On the other hand, the arguments against my idea have been legally, politically and financially unrealistic.


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Response to Lurks Often (Reply #68)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 09:30 PM

71. Better hurry up with your plan...

And bring lots of cash cause this one county right here can hardly even afford its standard police protection for anyone at all, as several towns have had to shut down their PDs due to the economy, opting to rely on state police and the sheriff for protection.

And the "gun grabbers" in the instance I'm linking to will most likely be our own Skagit County Court:

Sedro-Woolley teen arrested after Facebook threat to 'shoot up' schools

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10821307

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Response to countryjake (Reply #41)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 11:46 PM

78. [sigh] Sometimes I just cringe ......

 

Our Constitution guarantees each of us the pursuit of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.


... at the illiteracy here where we are supposed to have the intelligence and a knowledge of government and basic civics. I thought we were supposed to be the smart ones and the Wingers were the ignorant. Don't they teach the difference between our founding documents in the schools anymore. I swear, we were smarter in the '50's.

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Response to oldhippie (Reply #78)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 11:49 PM

79. Explain please?

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Response to countryjake (Reply #79)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 10:44 AM

87. Really? Is it that hard?

 

I rest my case.

On edit: OK, I feel bad about leaving you in your ignorance. The words you described, the "... the pursuit of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness..." are not in the US Constitution as you claimed. They are in one of the other founding documents, the Declaration of Independence. You know, the one that laid out the reasons that the people were taking up arms against their government?

I'm sorry to dump on you like this, but sometimes I get so discouraged and depressed about the state of education in our country. Back in the 50's and 60's pretty much every 12 year old could have corrected you. Civics and democracy and how our government was created and works was taught in grade school. We had to memorize parts of the Declaration and Constitution, and know what they meant. I'm just depressed I even have to see this on this forum. Sorry.

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Response to oldhippie (Reply #87)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:38 PM

96. So sorry that the semantics of what I posted...

concerns you to the point of such sadness.

I'm also sorry that you evidently don't believe that children in this country should have the freedom to get an education without a constant reminder of the irrational fear, threat, and paranoia that a small segment of our population wallows in.

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Response to countryjake (Reply #96)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:14 PM

97. Semantics had nothing to do with my comment on your post ...

 

It was about the accuracy of the content. And it is clear that you don't understand the definition of semantics. So I will continue to bemoan the state of education in this country.

You seem to also have a problem with reading comprehension.

I'm also sorry that you evidently don't believe that children in this country should have the freedom to get an education without a constant reminder of the irrational fear, threat, and paranoia that a small segment of our population wallows in.


Nice try at change of subject, but that doesn't have anything to with what I posted. Please show me where I
"evidently don't believe...." No, don't bother. I'm done.

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Response to oldhippie (Reply #97)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:08 PM

98. I couldn't show you, since you've expressed no pertinent opinion here...

and I might direct you to this "subject":

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1999746

Since you seem to insist on making posts that are off-topic to the discussion at hand, and choose to insult my intelligence instead, I'll also guess that you do not actually care about the very real problem that our entire country is addressing at this time.

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 06:53 PM

44. So what is your solution?



fuck that...

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Response to Earth_First (Reply #44)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 08:18 PM

48. Yup

 

Looks good to me.

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Response to Earth_First (Reply #44)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 09:04 PM

63. So what is yours?

 

and does it have a chance in hell of being enacted?

Or do you have nothing useful to contribute?

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 08:02 PM

45. We don't want, and should not have, to send our children to prison every day.

 

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 08:17 PM

47. Politicians have armed guards

 

like the anti gun Michael Bloomberg who has men with guns guarding his ass is he special or better that our children. Why can't our children be protected?

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 08:20 PM

49. it's not taken likely, but when schools become armed fortresses, its often

 

turned against the kids. Kids are searched, challenged, expected to wear clear backpacks, no purses. And minority kids are particularly vulnerable when law enforcement rules the hallways.

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 08:23 PM

52. School security isn't the problem. Guns and irresponsible gun owners are the problem.

 

But thank you for your concern.

This isn't Somalia or the Wild West, as much as you and your little friends would wish it were. We are a civilized country and we expect people to behave in a civilized manner. Unfortunately, gun nuts don't want to live the way the rest of us do. We wouldn't need such security if people with guns would stop with the violence.

YOU GUN OBSESSIVES ARE THE PROBLEM.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #52)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 10:47 AM

88. Another person who has no useful or

 

realistic options to offer

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 08:26 PM

53. when i went to school, we never thought of even needing it...

these days

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 08:27 PM

54. Schools should not be like prisons

We need to address why these things happen, not barricade our children, ourselves away from the world.

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 08:32 PM

57. because we don't want to pay for it. Norquist ensures that we don't have *that* conversation.

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 09:03 PM

61. Because children are sacred. n/t

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 09:05 PM

64. One armed guard & one metal detector is not a deterrent

That is cosmetic and provides a facade of security to ease the worries of the public. If there is a determined, violent gunman, a distracted security guard and a metal detector would not provide any practical defense. It is wasted money that could better be spent on education, mental health screening, and gun buy back programs.

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 10:35 PM

74. Honestly? It's because these incidents are so rare.

 

Tens of thousands of schools meet every day without incident. A spectacular tragedy like the recent attack draws attention but the reality of the statistics may suggest better uses for school funding.

Similar to airline travel, 1000s of planes land safely every day but a truly horrific crash is rare.

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 10:54 PM

75. We spend an unbelievable amount of money on security to protect ourselves against armed

crazies in this country.

We have a lot of schools and hospitals and malls and ball fields and public parks.

When we have to install metal detectors at the entrances of all public places including concert halls and football stadiums, public patience with guns will become very thin.

The problem is not with the schools, the hospitals, the malls, etc. It is with the fanatical gun owners.

It isn't with legitimate hunters. It is with the obsessed. And not all of them are mentally ill or insane. Some of them are just downright angry and mean.

Gun owners have to change things. That's all there is to it. I don't know how they are going to do it, but they have to initiate change. Otherwise, some sort of change, possibly overly drastic, will be initiated for them.

I don't know much about guns. Neither do a lot of DUers. That's why our ideas about stopping the senseless killings are pretty simplistic. People who value their right to own guns, people who shoot for sport, they have to propose the changes in the laws that will protect the rights of everyone and not just themselves. Otherwise they will get an outright ban.

The Constitution has been amended in the past and can be amended again. So it is absurd to just fall back on the argument that gun ownership is a constitutional right.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #75)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:12 AM

95. "I don't know much about guns. Neither do a lot of DUers"

 

which is why many of the "solutions" you propose just aren't feasible. Since 1900 gun laws have become increasingly restrictive and it wasn't until very recently that there has been a slight loosening in firearms laws, between court cases, which stated that Washington DC and Chicago (both very violent cities) went to too far in banning handguns altogether and through the legislative process which has enabled concealed carry for law abiding citizens.

It isn't access to guns, because for many, our parents and grandparents had far more access to guns as children then us.

FBI stats show that crime has been going down for over a decade although there are indications that 2012 crime rates will be higher then 2011.

The M-16/AR-15 design is almost 50 years old and there are other magazine fed semi-automatic guns even older (the first magazine fed semi-automatic gun dates back to 1905) , so it isn't like new technology is making things worse.

Thinking that the Second Amendment will removed or amended is unrealistic to the point of being delusional, you will NEVER get enough states to approve the change.

We need to address the social and economic pressures that cause crime, we need to identify and treat those with mental illness.





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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 10:59 PM

76. Why do you want to make fortresses of schools rather than address the real problem?

nt

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:00 AM

80. It's not. Schools have been "on guard" for many years now.

Keycodes to get in. Signing kids in and out. Checking to see if estranged ex-boyfriend is allowed to pick the kid up or not.

And that's just the suburbs!

In the inner cities schools really are like fortresses -- gates, fences, lockdowns for gang shootings in the streets.

Where have you been? It's been in the papers. The Little Red Schoolhouse is long, long gone.

Sorry.

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:04 AM

81. I believe it varies by district.

My niece teaches at a K-5 school, and all exterior doors are locked when school is in session. There is a camera and a speaker at the main door, so office personnel can see and talk to who is outside before buzzing them in. Classroom doors must be locked when students are in class.

There are no armed guards, but they do take security seriously.

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Response to City Lights (Reply #81)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 10:53 AM

90. It ends up unfortunatly being a demographic issue.

 

Metal detectors early on were put in to stem the flow of knives, box cutters and guns from schools with gang problems. We even see police assigned to problem schools. Unfortunalty crime and poverty seem to be good friends.

Security systems such as locked doors and cameras tend to be passive security systems. I see people jimmy doors because they're above the rules to use keys or take the long way in/out of a building. Security is only as good as the people who agree to use it.

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 10:50 AM

89. My daughter just called

and she is one of the mothers who volunteers for school lunch and playground duty among other things at her kids' school. She's on her way into the school and she called to tell me that she had this realization that people like her were not trained to respond to any crisis event at the school. She's going to speak with the principal when she gets there.

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 10:56 AM

93. Because it costs money.

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Response to Lurks Often (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 10:58 AM

94. Nearly 100% of unguarded money would be stolen.

Nearly 0.000001% of children might be attacked by a crazed gunman.

The practical realities of life, no matter how much we value the lives of children, mean that it's neither possible, nor even desirable, to lock children away in the equivalent of a guarded vault to protect them from a threat that's much lower than the threat of them dying during the ride to school in a bus or car accident.

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