We have elevated gun lust to a religion in this country.

[sufrommich]

And those blaming our horrible mental health system are using it as a smokescreen as usual. I've dealt with a family member who is mentally ill and can tell you that unless he or she is a danger to themselves or others,there is nothing you can force them to do regardless of one's ability to afford good mental health care.You can't force them to take their meds and you can't force them to seek therapy. My family member is not the least bit violent and the vast majority of people suffering any form of mental illness aren't either. I get so tired of hearing that America is a deadly country because of our health system,America is a violent culture because we have elevated arming ourselves to the teeth to a gawd given right regardless of the consequences to society,internet gun forums are filled with wanna be law and order cowboys and paranoid freaks who believe the government is an enemy we need to defend ourselves against along with those "urban" people who cause problems. Let's not forget modern day cowboys like this:

A Florida gun collector has pleaded not guilty to a murder charge alleging that he opened fire on a car full of unarmed teenagers, killing one, in an altercation that police say stemmed from loud music.

Michael David Dunn, 45, acted "as any responsible firearms owner would have," his lawyer said of the Friday evening incident at a gas station outside a convenience store in Jacksonville, Fla.

Dunn and his girlfriend were in Jacksonville for his son's wedding when they pulled up in their car next to the teens. Police allege that while the girlfriend was in the store, Dunn told Jordan Russell Davis, 17, and his three friends to turn down their music.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/28/15513847-florida-man-pleads-not-guilty-to-shooting-teen-to-death-over-loud-music?lite

We need to stop pretending that it's this country's mental health system is the main problem when discussing our violent culture,our main problem is that we live in a country that has elevated guns as a panacea for our problems and have allowed right wing organizations like the NRA,Fox News and right wing radio to define what "freedom" means in a democracy and that freedom revolves around arming ourselves.

[dkf]

1. If its not a gun it would be bombs

The one thing these loners seem to have in common is they seem to be very intelligent. Thinking that guns are their only avenue seems pretty ridiculous to me. It's like thinking a terrorist would be pacified if only they had no guns.

[aandegoons]

2. Never try never fail.

How much of tomorrows dead children's blood will you have on your hands.

[sufrommich]

4. Let's all pretend that it's "mentally ill loners" causing the carnage.

Unless you're telling me that the kid shot for playing his music too loud was in just as great a danger of having a bomb lobbed at him, your argument is senseless.

[dkf]

19. There's always knives for that sort of thing

[Major Nikon]

17. I doubt it

Our nearest competitor for intentional homicide among major industrialized nations is South Korea (2.6) who has a rate that's far lower than the US(4.2). The US compares better with 3rd world countries than 1st in this regard. Palestine (4.1) and Yemen(4.2) has the same rate as the US. Even Israel(2.1) has a homicide rate that's half ours. Most European countries have a rate that's 1/4th or lower than the US. Norway is 1/7th. Our homicide rate among African-Americans is over 20 per 100,000 and over 80% of those were committed by guns. Countries that have the best gun control have the lowest homicide rates almost without exception.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

The idea that people are just going to build bombs and kill just as many if they don't have access to guns is a gun nut talking point which has no basis in reality.

[Recursion]

30. RETRACTION: I had a factual error here

Last edited Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:47 PM - Edit history (1)

Harris and Klebold *wanted* to kill more people with bombs than with guns but didn't. Recursion regrets having posted that they did.

[Major Nikon]

32. I don't view statistical aberrations as particularly useful

YMMV.

I'm also not convinced of your assertion. (Edit: now corrected)

Injuries and deaths in initial incident
1. Rachel Scott, age 17. Killed by shots to the head, torso and leg alongside the West Entrance of the school.
2. Richard Castaldo, age 17. Shot in the arm, chest, back and abdomen alongside the West Entrance to the school.
3. Daniel Rohrbough, age 15. Killed by a shot to the chest at the base of the West Staircase.
4. Sean Graves, age 15. Shot in the back, foot and abdomen on the West Staircase.
5. Lance Kirklin, age 16. Critically injured by shots to the leg, neck and jaw on the West Staircase.
6. Michael Johnson, age 15. Shot in the face, arm and leg to the west of the staircase.
7. Mark Taylor, age 16. Shot in the chest, arms and leg to the west of the staircase.
8. Anne-Marie Hochhalter, age 17. Shot in the chest, arm, abdomen, back, and left leg near the cafeteria's entrance.
9. Brian Anderson, age 16. Injured near the West Entrance by flying glass.
10. Patti Nielson, age 35. Hit in the shoulder by shrapnel near the West Entrance.
11. Stephanie Munson, age 16. Shot in the ankle inside the North Hallway.
12. William David Sanders, age 47. Died of blood loss after being shot in the neck and back inside the South Hallway.
13. Evan Todd, age 15. Sustained minor injuries from the splintering of a desk he was hiding under.
14. Kyle Velasquez, age 16. Killed by gunshot wounds to the head and back.
15. Patrick Ireland, age 17. Shot in the arm, leg, head and foot.
16. Daniel Steepleton, age, 17. Shot in the thigh.
17. Makai Hall, age 18. Shot in the knee.
18. Steven Curnow, age 14. Killed by a shot to the neck.
19. Kacey Ruegsegger, age 17. Shot in the hand, arm and shoulder.
20. Cassie Bernall, age 17. Killed by a shotgun wound to the head.
21. Isaiah Shoels, age 18. Killed by a shot to the chest.
22. Matthew Kechter, age 16. Killed by a shot to the chest.
23. Lisa Kreutz, age 18. Shot in the shoulder, hand, arms and thigh.
24. Valeen Schnurr, age 18. Injured with wounds to the chest, arms and abdomen.
25. Mark Kintgen, age 17. Shot in the head and shoulder.
26. Lauren Townsend, age 18. Killed by multiple gunshot wounds to the head, chest and lower body.
27. Nicole Nowlen, age 16. Shot in the abdomen.
28. John Tomlin, age 16. Killed by multiple shots to the head and neck.
29. Kelly Fleming, age 16. Killed by a shotgun wound to the back.
30. Jeanna Park, age 18. Shot in the knee, shoulder and foot.
31. Daniel Mauser, age 15. Killed by a single shot to the face.
32. Jennifer Doyle, age 17. Shot in the hand, leg and shoulder.
33. Austin Eubanks, age 17. Shot in the head and knee.
34. Corey DePooter, age 17. Killed by shots to the chest and neck.

[kestrel91316]

33. Harris and Klebold killed their victims with guns (or bullets, if you want to be

difficult and split hairs). They killed no one with pipe bombs.

[Recursion]

34. Thank you. I had misread that. Correcting (nt)

[harmonicon]

22. Did you read the OP, or do you just have some of these lined up any time "gun" is in a subject line?

This response of yours has basically nothing to do with the OP.

[etherealtruth]

3. The right wing nut jobs/ NRA certainly have

There is no "right' to posses implements of destruction ... despite what the NRA says.

[Maineman]

5. Stop Teaching Gun Violence!

Computer games are used to teach math and other subjects. Videos are used to illustrate how to do math and other skills. Children learn how to do math from watching videos and playing computer games. Are we to believe that violent computer games, videos, and movies do not teach violence? Are we to believe that children decide to learn math from computer games, but turn off learning when the game involves shooting people? Are we to believe that children and young adults with mental health problems make this type of distinction? In other words, are we fools and idots? Will we continue to brainlessly accept the marketing spin of video and computer game profiteers when they assure us that violent games and videos do not affect behavior?

Oh, you say the people involved have a right to earn a living? Our Constitution is about life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, not life, liberty, and the pursuit of money. Violence training materials are certainly as big a public nuisance as organized crime. Stop violence education now!

Possession of movies, videos, and computer games that teach, illustrate, or depict gun violence should be banned. Possession of such should be totally illegal including existing products. In 1933, and for forty years thereafter, personal possession of gold was banned, and citizens were required to trade it in, especially gold coins. We can certainly do the same with violence training materials.

[sufrommich]

6. Unless you can show me another example of

a country that allows violent video games and has the same level of gun carnage as we do,I'm going to stick with blaming easy and legal access to weapons of mass destruction in the U.S. as our real problem.

[oldbanjo]

15. you are correct.

[harmonicon]

23. Oh, man... umm... jeez...

You know this isn't true, right? I understand that this provides an easy avenue where you can direct your anger, but it's simply not true. There is no evidence that films or video games make people act violently.

Al Capone's mom regrets the day she gave him that X-box.

[jimlup]

7. You reflect my thoughts - thanks!

[Don C. Nuttin]

8. It's pretty sick.

I am a country lawyer. I represented a fellow charged with aggravated robbery a few years ago. He was an intravenous meth user and was a big man with a lot of physicality. The mastermind of the robbery didn't even give him a gun. He figured my client would more effectively terrify the victims without one. The other day another fellow who I have known for a good, long while and who took the robber in when he completed treatment and was placed on probation called me about the robber. The fellow who called me is a subscriber to the worldview of a website called Prison Planet. It is perhaps the most extreme right-wing paranoid nightmare fantasy out there. It is far, far beyond crazy. The caller told me that the robber had burgled 5,000 rounds of ammunition from him. He wanted advice. The advice I didn't give him was "you really don't need 5,000 rounds of ammunition." I did offer to talk to the robber and see if things could be made right. I would prefer nobody gets killed. I don't get the guns. The guys most likely to have them are the craziest, most violent guys out there. It really is pretty sick.

[sufrommich]

10. There's been plenty of news stories about these

yahoos piling up on weapons and ammunition for years and web pages egging them on,people who blame "mental illness" as if being mentally ill is the danger and not the easy access to carnage producing weapons are either fooling themselves or deflecting from the real problem.

[Don C. Nuttin]

12. Yeah but...

Some (I suspect many) of those yahoos are pretty mentally ill.

[sufrommich]

13. They may be, but I'd be willing to bet that

the percentage of mentally ill people is fairly constant in populations,regardless of country.The difference is the access to guns.

[Don C. Nuttin]

18. If required to risk money, I would bet against you.

My guess is that the percentage of people susceptible upon conception to mental illness is fairly constant in populations, regardless of country. Particularly in this joyous (sarcasm) Christmas season of relentless lights, noise, traffic, sugar, and alcohol, the triggers for mental illness are acute here. Children in other countries are generally not socialized by television programming. The difference is not just the access to guns. Access to guns is a very acute problem, though.

[Zoeisright]

29. So fucking what?

There are plenty of mentally ill people in Canada. But 200 people were killed by guns last year, as opposed to 10,000 in this country.

Grow the fuck up.

[valerief]

9. Gun lust plays a major role, but doping up so many kids at such a young age

puts the pharmaceutical industry to blame, too.

[silhouete2]

11. I don't think it's gun lust we have elevated

but VIOLENCE in general. Look at video games with all their violence--being peddled to young children. That's how I see it.

[sufrommich]

14. Many countries allow these video games, what they

don't allow is easy access to guns.

[Vattel]

16. easy access to guns is difficult to address without a constitutional amendment.

easy access to certain very dangerous kinds of guns might be controllable without an amendment.

[harmonicon]

24. Too bad for you that how you see it has nothing to do with the facts. (nt)

[silhouete2]

31. Way to be a jerk

when I was merely stating my opinion.

[harmonicon]

40. I'm a jerk for correcting you? That's not being a jerk.

If I had an "opinion" that could be refuted by the facts, would you be a jerk for correcting me? Lets try. It's my opinion that the earth is hollow and inhabited by gnomes. Is anyone who tells me otherwise a jerk?

[silhouete2]

42. NO it's the way you said it

If you want to dispute what i said, then by all means offer me some facts that dispute what i said--instead of my just saying I'm wrong because you said so.

[harmonicon]

44. Oh, I see, the ol' "prove the negative" argument. Nice one.

Prove to me that the earth isn't hollow and inhabited by gnomes. Studies of violent video games and movies show that they do not encourage violence in their fans. I'm not going to do the google search for you, just as I'm not going to look up an image of a cut-away of the earth.

[silhouete2]

45. Look, you want an honest conversation

then let's act like adults and have one. But if you want to not discuss, but just sit there and say "I'm right, you're wrong" then fine. But I'm entitled to MY OPINION--we have a love affair with violence in this country--movies, video games are mere examples. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my explanation--but you simply poopooing me as completely wrong is childlike behavior. But so be it. Good day to you.

[harmonicon]

46. Ok, so tell me who is peddling "violent" video games to young children.

Video games have ratings. Besides, describing fictional depictions of violence as violence probably isn't effective - that is, the fiction never influences reality. For all of the Looney Toons I watched as a child, I never once dropped a safe on someone, shot them with a blunderbuss. When I was a little older, I played a lot of Super Mario Bros. Never have I thrown fireballs at turtles.

Simply put, there is zero evidence that fictional violence has any impact on actual violence. It's not just opinion. Studies demonstrate it as well.

[silhouete2]

47. Well when we were kids most violent games were fantasy

I remember one game--Duck Hunt --that actually used a "gun" in the game. Otherwise, I agree. However, years ago I watched a bunch of teenagers playing Grand Theft Auto---which wasn't a fantasy in the sense that it mimicked real life in bad ways. You steal cars--you beat up hookers? Kids are playing this stuff at young ages. Sure there are ratings on video games--there are ratings on movies, too--but kids get access to it. Is it bad parenting--maybe. But when I grew up--even though video games were around--we didn't play them all the time. We went outside and played with our friends. We played war---had fake guns--but most of what we were doing was in our imagination. We had nothing of reality to back it up. Nowadays--because of the internet and access to this kind of information--kids see this stuff happening in real life. It creeps into a lot of popular so called Children's programming. The kids have something in their heads as a vision of what they are doing. We as a society are so enveloped with violence on TV--even in the so called family hour---and in their games---that we aren't becoming more and more isolated--doing solo activities like watching TV or sitting in front of a video screen for hours. I never see kids playing outside with each other. DO I think we are a more violent society? No I don't. I think a lot of this stuff is fear mongering---to make people bend to your will so they get what they want--but it is what is going on. I work with kids daily--and I see that they lack social skills but they are very good at mimicking what they see on TV--and quite a bit it is inappropriate for their age. DO I hold parents responsible? Yes, I do. I am a parent myself so I have to be extra vigilant on what my son sees or hears. But it is harder and harder to shied him from it. We as a society need to come more together instead of barricading ourselves in our houses and not trusting one another--otherwise I think we are doomed. That is how I see it. You may disagree--as is your right--but based on my experience that is what I believe.

As for the violent video games--many are rated mature 17+ can only play them. However, I have witnessed young teenagers(2 of who I knew weren't old enough to buy the game and I let their mom know about it) buying them and no one checking for ID to make sure they are old enough to get them. The majority of the most popular video games are first person shooter games--Halo, Call of Duty. That's what's out there. I have students who are 6 and 7 years old who play these games. I blame the parents--but you can't make sure that parents are being responsible. All I'm saying is violence in general is glamorized and pushed in kids faces on a daily basis. It's not the guns specifically but the violence in general that I feel is the underlying problem. Maybe there isn't one conclusive study to prove otherwise--but it's a wee bit too late to ask a mass murderer who killed himself how much violence he was exposed to as a kid.

[harmonicon]

48. Well, I would assume he was exposed to as much as all other children.

We're all exposed to it, and it doesn't make people want to commit violent acts by-and-large. People playing Grand Theft Auto know that it's pretend. I don't think it's caused any increase in the murder of prostitutes or car theft. Trying to blame depictions of violence for actual violence is a red herring if there ever was one. If you can point to any evidence that there is a correlation, I'd be interested to see it.

[silhouete2]

49. Here is an article that talks about studies done

on kids who play video games for extended periods of time and how much more aggressive they can be. It references several studies

http://www.pamf.org/preteen/parents/videogames.html

Here are links to the actual studies mentioned in the article:

Violent Video Games and Hostile Expectations: A Test of the General Aggression Model. Personality and Social Psychology

http://www.psychology.iastate.edu/faculty/caa/abstracts/2000-2004/02BApspb.pdf



The effects of violent video game habits on adolescent hostility,
aggressive behaviors, and school performancehttp:

//bscw-app1.let.ethz.ch/pub/nj_bscw.cgi/d5907561/GentileLynchLinder-The%20effects%20of%20violent%20video%20game%20habits%20on%20adolescent%20hostility,%20aggressive%20behaviors,%20and%20school%20performance.pdf

[navarth]

20. I believe the work is FETISHISM

I've never understood Gun Fetishists and most probably never will.

Re: this latest tragedy: I have a question.

Why the FUCK does an elementary school teacher collect weird ass assault weapons like that???

[harmonicon]

25. I think that's certainly a part of it.

However, what I don't know is the reason for the fetish. That needs to be figured out. Moreover, what is responsible for the culture where that would become a common fetish? It's not films or video games, because those things are global, and this isn't a global problem.

The real question IS why would this woman want these weapons. Why is that considered reasonable?

[sufrommich]

37. I think it's been established that she wasn't a teacher there. nt

[AverageJoe90]

21. Yeah, this gun culture thing is a major problem, too.

BTW, I should point out that these very same right-wing pundits praising the "gun culture" have often been quite eager to attack violent video games.....

[tjwash]

26. The US wants the oil in the middle east so, they butcher thousands of Iraqis to get at it.

The US wants to secure the pipeline to the tankers, they drone strike and shoot thousands in Afghanistan to secure it.

The US doesn't like the Chinese government getting a little too close to their interests in Asia so they napalm and carpet bomb Korea and North Vietnam and kill off hundreds of thousands of people in that part of the world.

Americans are so immersed in the middle of a culture of "GIVE IT TO ME IT'S MINE!!!" that they don't even think twice anymore about killing someone that stands in their way. Sometimes they will kill people because they have nothing better to do than stew over some perceived insult, or, just because they don't like they way someone looks.

[Surya Gayatri]

27. According to various theories of criminality, when you associate disturbed "impulse"

(a diseased psyche) with easy "opportunity" (access to weapons designed for mass killing), the danger of catastrophic outcomes rises exponentially.

Result: A deadly combination of "impulse" and "opportunity" crime.

Edit: typos

[harmonicon]

28. Thank you. Can we discuss this as adults for a minute?

I've thought about making an OP about this, but I really hate the glomming on about whatever the topic of the day is around here when so many of the OPs wind up being similar.

What is it about our culture where people think owning guns is reasonable?

I used to think that gun control was reasonable and needed. I no longer think that. I think gun control is a red herring. The problem is not having gun x or gun y be illegal while allowing gun z to be sold. The problem is not who can buy guns, because people can get guns from somewhere (their mother, for instance). The problem is that we have a culture where personal gun ownership is considered not only reasonable and acceptable, but is accepted as normal by a large swathe of the population.

I look at the second amendment as I do the first. I think people should be able to manufacture and own any sort of text, practice any religion, join any group, etc. Just as the way to fix racism is not to outlaw Mein Kampf and the KKK, the way to fix gun violence is not to outlaw guns. In both cases, we have to examine the root of the problem.

Unfortunately, we're so incredibly far from having these discussions. I honestly don't fully understand what is at the root of this problem. I think Obama was largely right in 2008 when he said that people feel dejected so they grasp what simple rights they can exercise: guns and religion. Why are they dejected? Why do they see this as a fix?

Problem: I think I have a pretty clear idea about what gives rise to racism, and as much as people say they want to combat it, having that discussion about racism also becomes a critique of our economic system and society at large, so it's avoided. People run from it. Even if we could get to the heart of the gun problem, would we be willing do discuss it?

Guns are machines designed and manufactured for the purpose of killing human beings. This is the only first step I have to addressing this - drive that point home. Think of a fictitious thing - something unlike anything in this world materially - that is designed and manufactured to kill people. Imagine there being numerous manufacturers of these, collectors of them, tv shows, magazines, and websites dedicated to glorifying these machines for killing humans. Imagine that everyone involved in the design, manufacture, and purchase of these devices for killing human beings claimed they never intended for people to actually be killed. How would we react to that?

[sufrommich]

35. It's a common deflection from our NRA friends to

point to mental illness as the main cause of gun deaths.The truth is,most gun deaths in this country are the result of hopeless poverty,drug and alcohol abuse, domestic violence and momentary rage filled impulses for revenge. Most of these gun nuts who claim that guns are a good defense against the bad guys know there is no truth to that, they just don't give a shit.

[harmonicon]

41. I know that, but why do they want guns anyway?

Why did this woman desperately want to own devices designed to kill people? Anyone who owns something designed for killing must know that it can be used to kill them. Why is ownership of a device worth the risk of it killing you? This isn't like having a chainsaw or something that can kill you if misused. Guns, when used correctly for what they're designed for, kill people. Who wants that? Why?

Blaming mental illness is just a way to blame the "other." Why can't more people turn the camera on themselves? Why do we always have to blame others? I don't want to blame the NRA. I don't want to blame "gun nuts." I think we need to examine the culture that we are ALL a part of for creating this atmosphere. Blaming others isn't helping.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Mental health is not the main problem

But it is one f the problems. Like any public health epidemic this is multifaceted.

[ThoughtCriminal]

38. Gun worship is a mental health problem

It's not just that unhinged people can acquire arsenals. Being surrounded by guns seems to have a feedback affect.

[sufrommich]

39. Yes it is. nt

[AdHocSolver]

43. Humans are a violent species that subscribes to a culture of violence.

Vulture capitalists destroy people's livelihoods for profit. That is violence.

Banks and Wall Street steal people's savings for profit. That is violence.

Medical insurance companies deny affordable health care to millions of Americans. That is violence.

All the wars fought around the globe over the millenniums for profit or to defend religious ideology. That is violence.

Moreover, there is slavery, the mistreatment of women and minorities, "school yard" (or work place) bullies, "road rage", and more.

Something to consider: Why did the U.S. spend hundreds of billions of dollars on a war in Iraq to get their oil when the U.S. could have bought the same oil for one-tenth the amount of money without all of the destruction?

One answer is the need for those who profit from violence to stir up fear and hatred in the useful pawns that those in power use against the victims of violence. The right wing media is a powerful propaganda tool for this purpose.

The shooter sounds like someone who exploded at a minor irritation because he is a frustrated individual with pent up hostility at others who frustrate him, but against whom he dare not complain, so he vented at the teenagers who were not in a position to defend themselves.