General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsYes, I wish a teacher or other responsible adult had been armed
Last edited Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:00 PM - Edit history (1)
Parent: Three adults ran toward gunfire, 2 were slain
Shooter also dead at Connecticut school
Shooting happened at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown BLOG
http://www.cnn.com/
These brave adults heroically ran into gunfire. Unarmed!
No one can doubt their heroism, but why do we, as a society, have policies that forced them to run into gunfire UNARMED? We don't even require that of SEALS!
Of course not every teacher should carry. And armed teachers of small children should be specially trained. But a total ban is just silly.
And why should visiting parents, people with CCW permits, be forbidden to carry on school grounds? For ideological purity?! A child is less likely to be killed by a CCW permit holder than to be struck by lightening; the hysteria about CCW permittees in schools is totally out of touch with reality.
President Obama's balanced approach is right:
http://azstarnet.com/news/opinion/mailbag/president-obama-we-must-seek-agreement-on-gun-reforms/article_011e7118-8951-5206-a878-39bfbc9dc89d.html
Everyone knows guns can cause harm; why can't we admit that they can do good, too?
Edited to add: Perhaps those who hate this OP will be able to find common ground with this one. It's not about me and it actually could help, IMHO. It's about the victims.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021981534
If you think this will do any good, let your care for the children override your contempt for my ideas (or for me personally, as the case may be).
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,173 posts)Another day, perhaps.
But today?
TPaine7
(4,286 posts)DURHAM D
(32,609 posts)mandatory arming of 6 year old kids.
Remmah2
(3,291 posts)nt
JanMichael
(24,881 posts)a security guard yes, but a teacher? Jesus.
Lightbulb_on
(315 posts)blm
(113,043 posts)Time for tighter gun controls on the mentally unstable.
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)helmet and if they had been in a tank, they could have stopped them.....*sarcasm*
Tighter gun controls for EVERYBODY.
TrogL
(32,822 posts)WinniSkipper
(363 posts)of pro-2A people would agree with you. How do you suggest we do that?
Unfortunately - look at Holmes and Laughner. Where in the process of people (including authorities and administrators) having and expressing GREAT concerns about their mental stability could they have had either of these people declared incompetent? It should have been done. But how?
And are we willing to aply that same test to any of the other amendments? Because like it or not that is the challenge
alp227
(32,016 posts)PavePusher
(15,374 posts)It's still going to feel like getting gut-punched. It will slow, shock and distract the criminal, very likely disable them. And they only cover a limited area, basicallt spine and C-P from the front.
Also pretty rare for criminals to use actual body armor. What is sometimes initially reported as such, later turns out to be a "tactical vest" which is basically a fishing/photography vest; lots of pockets, no armor.
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)Jesus fucking H Christ
wryter2000
(46,036 posts)I could not put together words to express how I feel about this murderous nonsense. You did it for me.
Iggo
(47,549 posts)PavePusher
(15,374 posts)upaloopa
(11,417 posts)reinforce their position.
More guns in society will bring more deaths. Get it?
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)DanTex
(20,709 posts)godai
(2,902 posts)NNN0LHI
(67,190 posts)We have more Reaganites here than anything else.
And before some Independent makes an ass out of himself pointing out that a lot of Democrats voted for Reagan they need to remember a larger percentage if Independents voted for Reagan than Democrats did.
True story.
I never did trust any Independents. Here or anywhere else. They suck big time.
Don
NRaleighLiberal
(60,014 posts)I just don't know what makes those who post gun-support posts in the face of such tragedies tick.
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)Like batman or spiderman??
No. They just have to hope they're in the right place at the right time, and if the gun nuts I know are ever in that situation I'm 99% sure they'll be crying and shitting themselves in the corner rather than having the courage to actually do the right thing.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)justanidea
(291 posts)As a gun owner I am 100% fine with closing the gun show loophole. (I.e. no background check on private sales)
However I also agree that those with permits should be allowed to carry at the school. Lots of states keep stats on their permit holders. Less than one tenth of one percent commit any kind of crime.
Its the sickos getting guns that is the problem.
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)give a fuck what you think.
You getting to be on the wrong side of history.
Generic Other
(28,979 posts)Stay out of their schools and classrooms.
erinlough
(2,176 posts)And I don't want you in my hospital, at my restaurant, in my movie theater, my mall, or at my high school sports event.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Well, not really. Considering that CCW holders commit gun crime at a rate that is much less than common household accidents that kill or maim, staying home is really not the safe option.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Your distrust is rooted in ignorance.
CCW holders are not the problem. Something around one tenth of one percent of CCW holders commit a gun crime. These are not the people you should be distrustful of.
Facts are facts. Nothing will change that.
Generic Other
(28,979 posts)You think you have a right to endanger my kids and my classroom. You assume everyone thinks paranoid gun toting numbskulls clutching their CWP like a security blanket make the rest of us feel safer. This makes you out of touch and dangerous in my view. The last person to be trusted to carry a firearm near children!
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)Get a clue numbnuts.
NWHarkness
(3,290 posts)Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)What is this? o.O
ProSense
(116,464 posts)Enough with this idiotic rationalization.
The solution to gun violence isn't to wish that everyone is armed.
Dozens of lives were lost, and all you're concerned about is standing up for gun rights by disguising it as concern for the victims.
Stop the fucking lunacy.
randome
(34,845 posts)And your point sucks, btw.
DemocratsForProgress
(545 posts)Response to TPaine7 (Original post)
Post removed
TPaine7
(4,286 posts)Mob mentality and personal attacks will not dictate where and when I post.
MineralMan
(146,286 posts)There are limits. Truly, there are. You have exceeded one of them today with this post, I believe.
blue neen
(12,319 posts)Yep.
OldDem2012
(3,526 posts)Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)Corgigal
(9,291 posts)because if they did, then they did have one person armed. Not going to do much good when someone enters a classroom and closes the door. Most schools have doors with a small glass window.
This is bigger then arming people. We as a society need to sacrifice for the good of others now.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)sufrommich
(22,871 posts)liberalmuse
(18,672 posts)The person likely had an assault weapon, which is pretty much going to obliterate anyone with a regular gun. But go on defending this shit while stepping on the backs of the children gunned down today in cold blood, and countless others gunned down in cold blood again and again and again and again.
MineralMan
(146,286 posts)Can you not save your nonsense for another time or place?
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)In fact, the very idea is absurd.
apocalypsehow
(12,751 posts)RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)Driving a car is well regulated. Every so often, I need to take an eye test in order to keep being licensed to drive.
I propose annual mental health exams in order to have a license to own a gun.
That would be at least BETTER regulated, though not quite what I would call well regulated.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)Shakes head.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)joeybee12
(56,177 posts)and sickening post.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)ellisonz
(27,711 posts)Which is probably for the better, because now I can express my scorn for the gun extremists: you are fools, absolute, dangerous fools.
MineralMan
(146,286 posts)I hope that our administrators have a look, though. Perhaps they'll have a different reaction to this totally inappropriate original post.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)DrDan
(20,411 posts)even though I am on ignore for 5 DUers - mostly (if not all) gun nuts - so who really cares
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)for being nonsympathetic cowards.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)The backdrop of a tragedy facilitated by easy access to guns highlights the absurdity of the "everyone should be packing meme".
By the way, DUers, if you think this OP is loony and callous, you should check out the gungeon some time. The kind of right-wing nonsense that gets posted there daily makes this look mild.
ellisonz
(27,711 posts)Hell Hath No Fury
(16,327 posts)pnwmom
(108,976 posts)assault weapon. The parent would be George Zimmerman, not Superman.
Statistically, allowing guns around schools would result in more accidental shootings than it would prevent crimes like today's.
TPaine7
(4,286 posts)I read that it was a Glock and a Sig Sauer.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/14/us/connecticut-school-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
Statistically, I think your estimate of accidental shootings is way off, just like I think your idea of weapon is wrong, or at least premature. Even if it isn't, a pistol is a better weapon against an assault weapon than a fist.
Thanks for making a reasoned argument, however. That's what we Democrats are supposed to be about.
pnwmom
(108,976 posts)White House spokesman Jay Carney told reporters Friday that the Obama administration would not be engaging in a policy debate regarding gun control today, in the wake of an elementary school massacre in Connecticut.
A ban on assault weapons remains a long-standing goal of President Barack Obama, but today is not a day to engage in the usual policy debates, said Carney.
SNIP
Under a 1993 state law, possession of assault weapons is banned in Connecticut.
Assault weapons is a politically-flexible term, often used for semi-automatic weapons that look like soldiers personal weapons, such as the M-4 carbine.
Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/12/14/white-house-declines-comment-on-gun-policy-in-wake-of-connecticut-shooting/#ixzz2F3PcFvss
pnwmom
(108,976 posts)And that many rounds of gunshots were heard. It was most likely a rifle with a magazine.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-14/connecticut-shooting-leaves-27-dead-including-pupils-ap.html
The AP reported that the attacker in Connecticut is a 20- year-old man. A law-enforcement official in Washington said that one gun used in the attacks is a .223-caliber rifle, the news service reported. The official spoke to AP on condition of anonymity because the source was not authorized to speak on the record about the developing investigation.
http://johnston.patch.com/articles/27-dead-in-connecticut-school-shooting-aa42c099
The alleged gunman, whom reports have identified as 24-year-old Ryan Lanza, a former Quinnipiac University student, was armed with four guns and a high-powered assault rifle.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Leaving aside for now the matter of whether conducting such an interview with a child just after such an experience is anything even resembling responsible journalism, the remarkably composed little girl mentioned hearing several loud "booms." I'm not sure if this is conclusive, but fwiw, .223 rifles don't really go "boom," them make more of a loud "crack." The 9mm pistols found, on the other hand, have more of a booming report (and have the magazine capacity to account for the multiple shots). Of course, who knows what word the little girl would have used to describe the sound? I doubt she was trying to be coolly analytic with her choice of terms under such circumstances. I guess we'll know which weapons were actually used soon enough.
pnwmom
(108,976 posts)The shooter was using one Sig Sauer and one Glock, according to CNN. Glock doesn't make an assault style rifle, but Sig Sauer is the Rolls Royce of assault rifle producers.
TPaine7
(4,286 posts)Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/sandy-hook-shooting-gundman-2012-12
And the Bushmaster, which you might consider an assault rifle, was found in his car.
DevonRex
(22,541 posts)Her/himself from a shooter like this, much less an entire building full of children and other adults.
Add to that other untrained but armed adults running around playing cop and the disaster would have grown by leaps and bounds.
TwilightGardener
(46,416 posts)seem to think we should be.
SomethingFishy
(4,876 posts)You make a good argument for banning all guns.
kysrsoze
(6,019 posts)AlexSatan
(535 posts)that is is because these mass shooting occur in "no gun" zones?
aint_no_life_nowhere
(21,925 posts)Last edited Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:32 PM - Edit history (1)
in the custody of someone whose judgement I cannot know or depend on. Will they have the gun strapped to their hip during class time? What happens if that teacher leaves the gun unattended to with curious children around? When does the teacher whip it out for self-protection? Of course they can't do it too late in case a shooter invades. Do they draw the gun if anyone they see has a bulge under their clothes?
I'd never have a single moment of peace during the day.
mike_c
(36,281 posts)You should be ashamed. I urge you to hide that post and give it some more thought.
Cheap_Trick
(3,918 posts)that not everyone should be allowed to carry a weapon of mass destruction.
More guns are not the fucking answer.
EVER.
Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)Classy move, pal!
TwilightGardener
(46,416 posts)be ready to draw their weapons on split-second notice...
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)No, thank you. I work with special needs kids, and I have experienced school lockdowns 2x in Florida with armed gunman on campus.
So I would have grab my CP kid out of his wheelchair, carry and run with him, while I am shooting at gunman????? The teacher in the class can just get her gun out of her desk and start shooting with a class of twelve 4 year olds around the room??????
You are INSANE.
TPaine7
(4,286 posts)of bounds by one of our "impartial" juries.
LOL
former-republican
(2,163 posts)TPaine7
(4,286 posts)gunfire--disarmed--is part of the story.
Why is a post taking the opposite view perfectly appropriate today, while my view (backed with clear reasoning) is not to be expressed?
former-republican
(2,163 posts)I understand your point and perhaps having an armed guard could have made a difference
to save more lives. People running into gun fire unarmed is suicidal for the most part.
The teachers did what they thought was the right thing at the time.
In my book the teachers are heros.
Rambis
(7,774 posts)BeyondGeography
(39,369 posts)The victims are just props for you. If they weren't, you'd at least wait a respectful period of time before you jumped in.
Asshole.
Laurian
(2,593 posts)tallahasseedem
(6,716 posts)Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Oh, wait...
Honestly, it's pointless to try to discuss this subject rationally right after such an occurrence. Just look at the board...
That said, venting has it's value.
aquart
(69,014 posts)Then nobody has to run into an assault rifle.
Most Sudafed users will not make meth. But every Sudafed user is treated as a potential meth maker.
Keep guns out of the hands of potential mass murders which are, not coincidentally, MEN.
An ounce of prevention prevents a kilo of meth and a pile of bodies.
H2O Man
(73,535 posts)anneboleyn
(5,611 posts)Sickest thread I have ever seen posted at DU.
By far.
Thanks for the downer.
Don
October
(3,363 posts)Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)You don't really give a crap, just as long as you weren't personally touched by the gun violence.
So aftraid your Precious will be taken from you.
And that's all that really matters to people like in the end.
TPaine7
(4,286 posts)Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)I posted about it here, do a search.
May you never know that feeling.
TPaine7
(4,286 posts)didn't unnecessarily put salt in your wounds.
The OP is actually about the best way, IMO, to make what happened less likely and/or less deadly, at least in some circumstances. I say that not to persuade you, but to explain my motives.
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)The words of which have higher meaning for its acolytes than does any human life, other than their own.
The blood of slaughtered innocents is but one more offering to The Gods Of Firearms.
LTR
(13,227 posts)...I would also suggest investing in adult diapers. Because, unless you have combat experience, the diapers will be more useful when some asshole suddenly starts to open fire.
Seriously, a society walking around armed to the teeth will only create more problems.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)Ban all guns NOW
tledford
(917 posts)...then NO ONE would have needed a gun.
MANative
(4,112 posts)This happened less than five miles from my house, and I can see the hospital where victims were taken from my living room window. You have to be delusional if you think that guns are the solution. Get psychological help; you need it.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)They'd better get training and a huge pay raise.
adigal
(7,581 posts)No. I am sorry. Just no. If I had a gun in this situation and started shooting with all of the chaos, I would have killed even more people. Did you ever see the video from inside Columbine High school? Total chaos. Kids running all over the place, you cannot even tell who the killers were for the most part.
Totally freeper idea. Crazy.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)More innocent people will be killed.
opiate69
(10,129 posts)In the Tacoma Mall shooting a few years ago, the only person who ended up with life-threatening (and permanently debilitating) injuries was the would-be hero who pulled his firearm and confronted the shooter. Bonus trivia - said Rambo wannabe was actually a self defense instructor. Extra bonus trivia - The guy who talked the shooter down and brought about a peaceful resolution was an unarmed soldier who had recently returned from combat in the M. E.
cpamomfromtexas
(1,245 posts)Training and recurrent is required and a program like this would enhance safety at schools.
Might also create a few jobs.
LancetChick
(272 posts)He almost shot the guy who had taken the gun away from the shooter because he thought THAT guy was the shooter. Arming people is just a way to get more people shot.
Michigan Alum
(335 posts)TPaine7
(4,286 posts)he simply put his hand on the holstered weapon before correctly accessing the situation.
A police officer would have done exactly what he did. (Well, actually I think if you research you'll find that civilians are less likely to shoot the wrong person than police, so perhaps the cop would have followed through.)
DainBramaged
(39,191 posts)TPaine7
(4,286 posts)I see nothing cold-hearted about wishing that at least some of those children's protectors had been armed.
DainBramaged
(39,191 posts)Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
apocalypsehow
(12,751 posts)Response to SidDithers (Reply #97)
Post removed
Moostache
(9,895 posts)I hope you never have to feel the anguish that the parents in CT tonight will feel.
The hollowness and cold, ice cold chill that courses through you when you find out that you have lost a child...nevermind that you lost a child to a maniac who EXECUTED THEM WITH A HANDGUN!!!!
FUCK YOU.
Take your gun, shove it straight up your ass and SQUEEZE THE TRIGGER...
My heart and soul bleed today and these are not my children.
My children are in a different school but the same age.
You want to defend guns? Go find some NRA buddies, have a circle jerk after a round of shooting and kindly fuck right off...the rest of the humans on this planet are horrified that your thoughts are drawn to inanimate objects, instruments of death and insane ideas about the value of guns.
I would give up the right of EVERY AMERICAN to have a handgun of ANY kind for just ONE of those 18 children to have ONE more day with their family, ONE more Christmas, ONE more hug, ONE more kiss, ONE more laugh, One more lunch...
DO YOU GET IT YET????? THEY ARE GONE AND THEY ARE GONE IN PART BECAUSE OF GUNS AND THE ABILITY OF LUNATICS TO GET THEM, USE THEM AND KILL WITH THEM...
GoneOffShore
(17,339 posts)He's beyond hope.
WiffenPoof
(2,404 posts)Michigan Alum
(335 posts)You cannot shoot a gun off in the middle of a group of kids and adults. The more guns there are laying around, the more chances there are that someone gets shot accidentally, that someone uses it in a moment of passion/anger, or that it falls into the wrong hands.
GreenPartyVoter
(72,377 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)The petulant implication that twenty-seven dead school children are a price we pay for the 2nd Amendment advertises so much more about your character than you may have initially wanted...
apocalypsehow
(12,751 posts)Paladin
(28,252 posts)cynatnite
(31,011 posts)You think adding more guns to the mix is the answer?
You think giving a teacher a gun is the answer?
A teacher told my sister as a child she would go to hell if she didn't do her homework. Should she have a gun? Another teacher threw an eraser at one of my kids? Should that one be armed?
I'll never understand why some think more guns is the answer to the gun-craziness.
NYC Liberal
(20,135 posts)LynneSin
(95,337 posts)Then what's your excuse when a Teacher goes berserk and decides to shoot-up the classroom.
The gun problem solution isn't more guns. More guns just means more opportunities to ensure that someone who isn't playing with a full deck or has a gripe against someone else can just use '2nd amendment laws' to deal with their problems.
I have no problems with guns, I come from a family that owns guns. And those that owns make sure they know how to use them and keeps them locked up when not in use.
What's worse with this crime is that the shooter had automatic weapons, someone that a few years ago was not available in this country. But thanks to our congress led by GOP gunnuts, they let the assault weapon ban expire.
I can't say whether or not the ban would have prevented this but if the guy didn't have such highpowered weapons maybe we could have prevented more deaths IF it happened.
The Midway Rebel
(2,191 posts)FUCK YOU!
diphthong
(21 posts)Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)added to my Ignore List. I'm sure you won't be the last.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)I question your humanity.
Go ahead and alert. I've gotten one locked today already, I'll go for more, at least when it comes to telling gun nuts just how sickening they really are.
apocalypsehow
(12,751 posts)Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)Take a hint.
TPaine7
(4,286 posts)apocalypsehow
(12,751 posts)this. Yes, our "pro gun progressives"* are just having boatloads of fun talking about how great guns are, even on a day like this.
*( )
Fearless
(18,421 posts)People do good. And people do bad. Had a person not done bad today, there would have been no reason for people to have done good.
Had the social safety net been strong enough, this man would have received the treatment he needed.
Had gun laws been stricter, red flags would have gone up when he tried to purchase weapons.
Had society's pro-violence meme not been so prevalent, no one would get shot by anyone.
TPaine7
(4,286 posts)Fearless
(18,421 posts)Good people do good things with or without guns.
libdem4life
(13,877 posts)to all schools now. No problem, just put up barbed wire fences, cut a cafeteria worker, a couple of teacher's aides, and a secretary or two and strip down kids and parents as they come to school. (Don't forget to vote against the Teacher's Union for decent, let along combat, pay) Hire a trained military returnee/Vet or two from the Middle Eastern Wars of Choice and it's a Full Circle Employment Plan. Before long, we will look just like those we seek to liberate from their domestic terrorists.
May God or Goddess have mercy on our souls. And RIP our grieving families from the latest American terrorist massacre.
Rowdyboy
(22,057 posts)FSogol
(45,474 posts)VOX
(22,976 posts)Or, at the very least, there'd be only one murder in any given situation before all CCW-ers in the immediate area would form a circular firing squad and blast away at the perceived malefactor.
But that's not how reality plays out. Ask cops who've been there, ask combat vets -- there's confusion, unknown situations, multiple sources of fire, no clear lines of sight, etc., etc. Every additional weapon that gets added to these scenarios only jacks up the carnage-factor.
More guns is NEVER the solution.
KG
(28,751 posts)nolabear
(41,959 posts)That man was not afraid to die. He INTENDED to die. Someone in that state of mind expects to die and will not be deterred by the idea of everyone being armed.
And those guns? Legally owned by a teacher. His mother. Whom he killed first.
TPaine7
(4,286 posts)Taverner
(55,476 posts)PA Democrat
(13,225 posts)donheld
(21,311 posts)etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)I don't want guns in schools. I don't want guns in the hands of the mentally ill. I don't want guns that can shoot a hundred rounds in a minute or two.
myrna minx
(22,772 posts)TPaine7
(4,286 posts)I actually meant no offense; my views simply differ from yours. Simply put, if I had a child who I love in that classroom, I would have preferred that the teachers were armed.
If that offends you, it's not due to malice on my part.
tiny elvis
(979 posts)make my day
what are the real results of more guns?
is that in dispute?