Concealed carry wins in Illinois, white guys carry fake hand-written signs

[DainBramaged]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by Stinky The Clown (a host of the General Discussion forum).

It's amazing how afraid they all are.

[RegieRocker]

1. Get honest

it is you who are afraid not them. You're afraid of guns and people with guns.

[DainBramaged]

2. See any black folks in that picture? Think they're afraid of those guys?

Poor disillusioned souls. They think guns are the cure for the ills this country faces, just like you.

[RegieRocker]

3. I viewed a lot of white women.

A bullet fired from a gun whether from a white man or a black man has the same lethality.

[DainBramaged]

5. Ask yourself why the NRA has a 99+% white membership.

Have a nice day


BuhBye

[RegieRocker]

8. I know

Blacks don't want to associate with the racists but some still like guns.

[pipoman]

18. Let's see the source of your ficticious stat, eh?

[DainBramaged]

60. LOL

You're trying too hard to defend nothing. You guys won, still afraid of us 'gun grabbers.?


So sad.


If you defended the rights of the minorities and downtrodden as hard as you defend the right to shoot them I'd tend to not bother with your paranoia, but none of you give a rat's ass about anyone unless they own a gun..


Have a nice life.

[justanidea]

67. Are you seriously trying to say all gun owners are racists?

I mean really?

[hack89]

58. One reason why only a tiny fraction of gun owners are NRA members nt

[-..__...]

69. Probably as many white folks at a Trayvon Martin Rally.

[Chorophyll]

7. Yeah, well, they have a tendency to be disruptive

at movie theaters, malls, political rallies where Democrats are speaking -- that sort of thing.

When people who want guns so desperately can prove to the rest of us that they're not batshit freaks with revenge fantasies, I'll stop being afraid of them.

[pipoman]

9. Maybe if you took time to actually study

the stats of the other 49 states which allow people with a law abiding record the ability to be proactive in their own self defense, your unfounded fears could be tempered?

[mikeysnot]

26. Yes, the onus is always on us

to look at the "facts" that gunners never provide. Site some non existent numbers.

[X_Digger]

39. Here's one that's easy to find..

from: http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/rsd/chl/reports/convrates.htm
and http://www.window.state.tx.us/specialrpt/tif/population.html

Similar rates apply to Florida: http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/news/reports.html

[EOTE]

74. That graph is fairly worthless without knowing what percentage of the GP that CHL holders represent.

Provide that significant bit of information and that graph might actually mean something. For instance, I'm guessing that in 1996, CHL holders represented a fair bit less than half of the general population in Texas. I know this doesn't come from the NRA, but the NRA is very good at presenting graphs and such that seem impressive, but really don't tell anything of significance by themselves.

[X_Digger]

77. That information is also available, and were part of the graph..

That's how I put together the rate.. X convictions per 100,000 (members of general public > 21 v CHL holders)

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/rsd/chl/reports/demographics.htm

In 2011, for example, there were 518,625 license holders, and they were responsible for 120 convictions, ie, a rate of 23 per 100,000 compared to the general public over 21 yoa (minus the number of CHL holders) which had 63,559 convictions, for a rate of 362 per 100,000. 2.87% of the population over 21 are CHL holders, and are convicted of 0.1884% of the crimes committed in 2011.

eta: I chose rate as a comparison, because it's an apples to apples look at the two groups within each population. It would be silly to compare straight percentages, that would be skewed to the pro-CHL side.

[mikeysnot]

76. yes, gun crime with CHL goes down after 2007

Same year Perry signed Castle doctrine. just redefining gun crimes does mean they go away.

Not sure what you were trying to prove with this?

Are you stating the CHL are law abiding citizens? They are still committing crimes... with guns.

[X_Digger]

78. At a rate that is a *fraction* of those committed by the general public.

When someone claims that they *never* commit crimes, you be sure to reference this graph.

Funnily enough, I don't see anyone here making that claim.

[Chorophyll]

62. Don't tell me what to study.

We have spree shootings every week in this country. England doesn't have them. Canada doesn't have them. France doesn't have them. Holland doesn't have them. I could go on. I'm sick of being creeped out every time I venture into a public place. Your damned "proactive" self-defense fantasies aren't helping anyone.

[mikeysnot]

71. reality is lost on them.

Gang bangers carry concealed guns illegally, does not prevent gang on gang violence, but somehow a "Legal" concealed carry would prevent gun crimes... or something like that.

[88mph]

14. seems like you are talking about a small minority of the population

not the majority.

thanks for playing.

[Chorophyll]

63. No, thank YOU 11-post-count.

[yellowcanine]

19. It seems to me a person who wants to carry a gun is the more fearful person.

It is an arguable point but I suspect if you did a random poll of just about any population the majority would say that.

[Lightbulb_on]

25. Got any jumper cables in your car?

Are you afraid of a dead battery or just prepared?

Canned food and water? Afraid of the apocalypse? Maybe just prepared in case of a power outage.

Just because I am prepared to respond to a potentially dangerous situation doesn't mean I am trembling in my boots...

[EOTE]

75. Sorry, I missed that bit of information about the epidemic of jumper cable violence and fatalities

in this country. I'll be awaiting that, as without that data, the comparison you made is pretty damned stupid.

[pipoman]

4. Silly fools

there is no need for defensive weapons in IL. What are they afraid of?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/01/chicago-homicides-reach-4_n_1929015.html

With still three months of the year ahead, Chicago has seen 400 murders so far in 2012 as of Friday, marking a 25 percent increase over last year's numbers, WGN reports.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/chicago-murders

Yeah, the law abiding of IL should just go about their daily lives and keep possession of firearms on the streets where they belong, in the hands of criminals..




of coarse..

[mikeysnot]

27. So gun crime was lower

when we had the ban in place, and a year after the ban was removed, gun crime goes up!

Go figure.... who would have thought that.

[pipoman]

36. Nothing has changed in Chicago since the loss at SCOTUS...nothing

These crimes are still being committed by emboldened criminals who know the penalty for their victims defending themselves is higher than the penalty for victimizing. The rest of the country is enjoying annual reductions in violent crime (for over 3 decades) while the prohibitionist state is experiencing a 25% increase in violent crime.

[mikeysnot]

38. reality catch it.

Gun ban went away last year. Gun crime went up 25%.

I am sick of this meme....

The rest of the country is enjoying annual reductions in violent crime (for over 3 decades) while the prohibitionist state is experiencing a 25% increase in violent crime.

False equivalency fallacy.

[pipoman]

43. It didn't go away...read up

[X_Digger]

48. Only on paper.

No, thanks to too cute by half regulations implemented (must have live fire training, but there shall be no publicly accessible ranges in the city; etc) the number of legally owned handguns has went up a minuscule amount.

First Daley then Rahn have lost three (or is it now four) cases where Chicago makes a small change to the law that still amounts to a virtual ban.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-07-22/news/ct-met-chicago-gun-laws-20120722_1_gun-control-firearms-ordinance-legal-gun

Alan Gura, who represented the NRA in the landmark Supreme Court cases against Chicago andWashington, D.C., said there are many problems with Chicago's ordinance. After the federal appeals court ordered Chicago last year to allow gun ranges, the city rewrote the ordinance in a way that sill amounted to a de facto ban, he said.

"Upon losing a case, the city makes some symbolic changes and digs in for the inevitable," said Gura, who also represents plaintiffs in the suit, Ezell v. City of Chicago. "In Ezell, the city chose to defy the court and re-enact what is, for all intents and purposes, another range ban. And it's defending this absurdity with the legal equivalent of nuclear war."

After the Supreme Court forced the city to drop its long-held ban on handguns and allow residents to have the firearms at home for protection, Daley pushed his Law Department to come up with a new ordinance that could withstand constitutional challenges.

Though several key elements of the ordinance have yet to be decided, legal action by gun-rights advocates has forced the city to spend roughly $375,000 on outside counsel to defend them since Emanuel took office in May of last year.

And that's after the $400k check written to Gura in February..

http://www.nbcchicago.com/blogs/ward-room/City-Writes-399950-Check-To-Gun-Rights-Group-138940944.html

[mikeysnot]

65. we can buy hand guns

just not in the city. I can go over the city line and there is a gun shop. Show my FOID card and purchase a gun.

[X_Digger]

68. Correct, the rest of IL != Chicago. Now, about that defacto ban *in* Chicago?

The gun ban didn't 'go away' in reality- first Daley then Rahm kept fighting to keep it, by tweaking the regulations and putting up roadblocks to keep people from meeting the legal requirements to legally acquire one.

Pipoman's right, nothing substantial changed *in the city*.

eta: Though Rahm seems to be not as ardent as Daley was. Maybe he's tired of writing checks.

[mikeysnot]

70. what, I can't buy one in chicago

but can own one... big diff.

[X_Digger]

73. In order to bring it into Chicago, you have to jump through hoops involving travel outside the city

At least, to legally do so.

No, the asinine changes in regulation have amounted to a de facto ban for most. Hence the series of checks the comptroller has had to write.

[DanTex]

41. So when faced with contrary empirical evidence, you make excuses. Hmmm....

Maybe, instead of just looking at isolated statistics, someone should do a controlled statistical study that looks into the effects of gun ownership and gun policy on homicide rates. You know, this kind of thing...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021965383#post21

[pipoman]

45. LOL..."empirical"...words mean things

[DanTex]

49. Sorry, the fact that you choose to mock the peer reviewed studies doesn't make them go away.

[Chorophyll]

6. Oh look at the "Well-Regulated Militia!"

Gosh, I feel safer already.

[pipoman]

11. Why does it always have to be about you?

Nobody cares about your feelings. Many care about their security and the security of their families.

[Chorophyll]

61. I care about the security of EVERYBODY'S family.

It's about all of us. Guns are not making anyone safe.

[Arcanetrance]

10. I respectfully ask you change your title

Looking at that picture I see both men and women marching

[Hoyt]

12. Bet vast majority are right wingers too.

[88mph]

16. well yeah.

None of the "left wing" gun nuts that I hang out with would not be seen with them marching, but I am happy about it.

[DanTex]

13. The march of the teabaggers...

Concealed-carry yahoos like these tend to be the looniest few percent of the population -- either filled with fear and paranoia, or else the self-appointed vigilantes wanting to play gun hero.

[pipoman]

15. LOL

49 states and absolutely no stats to back your ass-ertions..

[DanTex]

21. I'm speaking from personal experience.

And, judging from what the gungeon trolls post here on DU, apparently the Texas gun nuts that I've known are a pretty representative sample.

If you are looking for statistics and peer reviewed research on guns and gun policy, here are a few places to start. But in my experience most gun nuts simply dismiss all the scientific evidence as "anti-gun bias", in the same way as creationists and global warming deniers.
http://home.uchicago.edu/~ludwigj/papers/JPubE_guns_2006FINAL.pdf
http://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2240&context=fss_papers
http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/faculty/dranove/htm/dranove/coursepages/Mgmt%20469/guns.pdf
http://www.iansa.org/system/files/Risks%20and%20Benefits%20of%20a%20Gun%20in%20the%20Home%202011.pdf

[pipoman]

22. Yeah, that's what I thought

as usual, your fervent fear of the statistically insignificant outweighs the rights of others..gungeon trolls indeed..lol

[DanTex]

23. LOL. The best way to get the NRA crowd to change subject is to post some scientific studies.

On the bright side, at least you know how to spell "statistically insignificant"...

[pipoman]

31. Studies by the fearful like minded aren't significant either..

now stats from, say, the FBI, CDC, and BJS...those are the ones disputed by your bias funded "scientific studies".

http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2011/september/crime_091911/crime_091911

http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/index.html

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/guns.cfm

[DanTex]

34. LOL. Of course! Social scientists and epidemiologists are "the fearful like-minded".

In a way, it must be nice to be so ignorant that you actually can convince yourself of these kind of things. Why let the peer review process, the scientific method, controlled statistical studies, and all that get in the way of a good ideological bias?

[pipoman]

37. "ideological bias" actually occurs when

scientific study is funded by those promoting bias, as is the case in your links to studies funded by Joyce Foundation and other looney 1%ers.

Shall we also believe studies of the benefits of GMOs funded by ADM?

[DanTex]

44. Of course, it's all "big gun control". The NRA brainwashing is hilarious!

The desperation on the part of the gun fanatics to continue to believe in the face of science is truly remarkable. Particularly when it comes to studies that were funded by the government, rather than private organizations. But hey, if you were interested in the truth, you wouldn't be repeating NRA propaganda in the first place.

[pipoman]

50. No, actually it is small gun control funded by big billfolds

Yeah, NRA..









http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/guns.cfm

(BJS is a division of the US Department of Justice)

And all this while the US went from 8 states with concealed carry laws to 49 states.

See how rabid this issue makes you? Can't help calling names and pointing fingers in a spittle producing frenzy...

[DanTex]

52. Like I said, ignoring the peer reviewed science doesn't make it go away.

You don't seem to understand the difference between raw data and statistical inference. You also don't seem to realize that many of the studies are actually government funded. I've pointed this out before, but like the rest of the NRAers, when you come across a point that you can't rebut, you simply ignore it and change the subject.

There's a reason that the peer reviewed science and the right-wing gun blogs come to opposite conclusions. It's because in science you can't get away with the kind of misdirection and superficial cherry picking of data that is necessary to support the pro-gun ideology.

[pipoman]

56. So much weight on "peer review"

shall we begin posting the voluminous examples of "peer reviewed" which failed the peer review? Which were found to be influenced by their funding source? GMOs and ADM shall we?

[DanTex]

59. Yes, all denialists make the same arguments.

Peer review is flawed. The studies are "biased", etc. When the science isn't on your side, you've only got so many cards to play. The gun nuts are not so different from the global warming deniers or creationists in the end.

[pipoman]

24. Oh, and aren't you giving a lot of credit

to "gun nuts" to be able to pass concealed carry in 49 states with not a single credible effort in any of the 49 to repeal? No, it is the fearful few who can't wrap their heads around allowing the choice of personal protection to be left to the people.

[DanTex]

29. Oh, the teabaggers get tons of credit.

In addition to ensuring that the US has homicide and gun violence rates some 5X higher than the rest of the developed world, they've also passed "Right to Work" laws, blocked climate change legislation, deregulated Wall Street to the point of near economic collapse, pushed creationism into schools, rolled back a woman's right to choose, etc.

Yay right-wing crazies! ( )

[pipoman]

32. And all of those things have

credible opposition, not so much with this issue of liberalized civil rights/liberties. If they are so powerful, how on earth has Obama remained in office? No, people with your view on this are rare and the movement you wish for impotent, as it should be.

[DanTex]

35. LOL. Looks like we have another poll truther on our hands...

"People with your view are rare"...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/18/poll-americans-gun-owners-stronger-laws_n_810069.html

[pipoman]

42. Yep, rare..

from your link..

In terms of protecting Second Amendment rights, 79 percent of Americans and 90 percent of gun owners said they believe an individual has the right to own guns, and the amendment is not limited to protecting the rights of state militias. Eighty percent of Americans and 90 percent of gun owners oppose a law that would ban the sale of all handguns.

I had no idea that 80% of the population were teabaggers...~snick~

[DanTex]

47. Wow, the denialism is staggering. Did you even bother and read the article?

Try again...

51% think gun laws should be stricter.
66% support mandatory registration of all guns in a national registry
58% support banning high-capacity magazines
86% support background checks for private purchases

http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/Bloompoll.pdf

[pipoman]

54. Yep I know the article you posted first...

now that you realize it didn't say what you wished it said, you seem to have found something else which says what you think it should...a laugh a minute I tell 'ya..

[DanTex]

55. Umm, it's the same poll.

You just chose to ignore the bulk of it and pick the one sentence you agree with. It seems to be a pattern with you -- cherry picking data.

[88mph]

17. so it's make something up and say it as the truth day?

[Lizzie Poppet]

51. Thanks for your amateur psychoanalysis.

Worth every penny paid...

[billh58]

64. +1

Just what Illinois needs -- more guns in the hands of wannabe Zimmermans: "But officer, I killed him because he looked like he was about to harm me. I wuz jus standin' my ground bubba..."

Summary executions are becoming the right-wing Republican way of saving tax dollars by eliminating those cumbersome and expensive trials and long jail terms. According to the Tea Party Gungeon crowd, no one should ever be given a second chance if they fuck up. It's okay to kill them because they were just itchin' for it anyway.

The Right to Kill and Bury Anyone (RKBA).

[Berserker]

20. Only thing fake is the OPs headline

I warms my heart to see all these Americans standing up for their rights to carry.
Good job fellow 2A supporters.

[DainBramaged]

40. lol

when did you ever stand up for the rights of minorities in this country?

[Remmah2]

57. Do people really stand up for minorities?

Or do people stand up for minorities when they are the minority and it is in their own self interest?

[Berserker]

72. You are a real piece of work

Do you know who I am? You must know everything I can tell by the bullshit posts you spew.

[NCTraveler]

28. Could you please link to where you got the picture from? nt.

[Berserker]

30. Open up

Google. Then click images. Left click on pic drag and drop into Google and it will show you where any pic is from.

[NCTraveler]

33. That is really neat. Thanks for the help.

Tried. Couldn't get it to work.

[justanidea]

46. You're right. No black people fighting for gun rights in illinois

Thats why the plaintiff in the McDonald v Chicago case was black.

[slackmaster]

53. Wow, it's amazing what a good job of dressing up in drag those guys do!

I'm impressed.

[Mel Content]

66. people need to come to grips with the FACT that guns are here to stay.

get used to it.

until there's a cheap technology that renders guns entirely useless- there will always be gun-owners in the U.S.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

79. {sigh} great. At least with concealed carry they can't parade around trying to look like tough guys.

[L0oniX]

80. Let me know what you think after you've been raped, mugged or had a home invasion.