General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI'm going to post some facts about the Israel/ Hamas conflict that gives me pause. Should it not?
On Oct 7 1,139 Israelis were killed in a vicious attack, 815 were civilians. 479 Palestinians also died that day. Since then, 40,792 Palestinians have died while 339 Israelis have been killed.
40,000+ dead on one side. 339 on the other bothers me.
I don't hate Israel, but this feels very wrong to me.
LexVegas
(6,549 posts)Rustynaerduwell
(726 posts)PaulnFortWorth
(67 posts)The war would have ended already if humas was willing to trade the hostages for peace. But NO! They kept the hostages deliberately to keep the war going and drum up a "poor-poor-pitiful-me" media campaign. And money.
The war didn't start with a military against military skirmish. It was the humas military against Israeli civilians. RAPE and sexual abuse was part of the military strategy.
Yes, the numbers are large. But the people of Gaza put them in power.
Don't give the anti-semitists power, sympathy or money.
Pototan
(2,002 posts)the civilians are evacuated into bomb shelters (tunnels) and the fighters remain on the ground to protect them.
In Gaza, Hamas does the opposite.
2naSalit
(92,481 posts)The other group, in fact a much bigger one.
LexVegas
(6,549 posts)2naSalit
(92,481 posts)Bibi regime's is bigger by far and we taxpayers pay for it. And I object.
Beastly Boy
(11,098 posts)Saving tens of thousands of Israeli civilian lives.
What is it about paying for this that makes you object?
2naSalit
(92,481 posts)The munitions that are mass murdering innocent people by the thousands.
So you tell me whose life has more value?
And how do you determine that value on an honest level?
Beastly Boy
(11,098 posts)To Hamas, no life has any value other than propaganda, so they do jack shit about protecting lives.In fact they do their best to endanger lives.
To Israel, the lives of civilians has a great deal of value.
So the question is really not about whose lives has more value but who values lives more.
And it ain't Hamas, by a ridiculous margin.
Any objections to your tax money being spent on saving lives?
2naSalit
(92,481 posts)YOU how YOU assess the value of life and who has greater value according to YOU not hamas or the israelis.
Take your time.
Beastly Boy
(11,098 posts)I replied that in this context your question is not relevant.
But since you are asking my general opinion on how I personally assess human life, my answer is pretty conventional: one life equak value to the other, no difference between them, and since I value my own life rather highly, I value the lives of others equally. Obviously, when push comes to shove, I would be more inclined to save my own skin, but that's pure instinct which is also not relevant to your question.
I still can't figure out the reason you formulated your question like this since we were talking about the Gaza conflict, but I hope my answer satisfies your general curiosity.
Now, if you were to attempt to apply my answer to what your taxes are paying for, that would be taking my answer out of context, and I would direct you again to what Israel is doing with your tax dollars to protect its civilians vs what Hamas is doing to expose its civilians to mortal danger. So don't try it.
Buttoneer
(630 posts)They are propaganda when people of ordinary good faith list 40,000 Palestinian deaths without even the most basic attempt to separate Hamas militant casualties from that total......we can discuss policy but if that is your starting metric I'm going to assume bad faith
Buttoneer
(630 posts)Autumn
(46,181 posts)Think. Again.
(17,447 posts)....first and foremost stopping the violence that both sides are engaged in.
Even here on DU, we get caught up in arguing about the excuses being used to commit the violence, and every day, while we're doing that, innocent, non-combatant children, women, and men are literally being slaughtered.
Harris is calling for (and, as V.P., working toward) a hostage release and ceasefire agreement as an immediate top priority, with an equally fair and secure 2-state solution as a longer term goal.
Irish_Dem
(56,530 posts)War is hell.
KPN
(16,081 posts)Americans concerns about the atrocities in Gaza, and now spreading to Lebanon, are legitimate. Why are we continuing to fund these callous, inhumane atrocities?
PCIntern
(26,846 posts)how many were terrorists who perpetrated the crime?
And lets get this straight: (and this is military deaths alone)in WWII Germany lost 5 million or so, Japan lost 2 million or so and we lost 470000. So we in the US are somehow the villains here by your logic and itd have been best if a few million more Americans died?
For Hamas, this was a real FAFO moment.
Redleg
(6,121 posts)Nazi Germany posed an existential threat to most of Europe. Hamas are a bunch of fucking terrorist assholes but they likely do not pose a existential threat to Israel. Yes, they can do great harm to Israelis and probably will try to do so in the future but they can't occupy the state of Israel and put the people to the sword or turn them into slaves.
In WWII there were many non-combatant deaths and also many combatants killed on all sides. In Gaza there appears to be a very high proportion of non-combatant deaths compared to combatant deaths. In WWII the bombing missions that created mass civilian casualties were done using the technology of the time- it wasn't smart bombing but was often saturation bombing from high altitudes and sometimes involved the use of incendiaries (Dresden) and twice, the atomic bomb. Israel today has access to smarter munitions and smarter ways to deploy them, as well as well-trained ground forces.
If we shouldn't care about non-combatant Palestinians in Gaza, why should we care about innocent civilians in Israel? The war didn't start on October 7. It has been going on for over half a century. More than enough blood has been shed. Let's find a way to end this.
JohnSJ
(96,436 posts)raping an torturing civilians and taking hostages.
What they were counting was that it would unite all the hostile countries surrounding Israel with Hamas to destroy Israel.
Up to now, to their dismay I am sure, that did not happen.
PCIntern
(26,846 posts)This whole surround of Israel poses more than an existential threat: they have sworn to their shod the destruction of Israel and the Jews.
They mutilated the genitalia of Israelis while they were still alive and Im supposed to make this a co-equal conflict? Forget it. What goes around comes around with this stuff
And of course: how DARE I compare anything to WWII? Silly me. Well I was describing a logical fallacy in the OP by referencing that war, but the knee-jerk reaction, like that of the RWers after a school shooting, you cant do that . Sure I can and just did.
Redleg
(6,121 posts)rather than less likely. And keep in mind that there are those in Israel's government who would like to see the Palestinians gone and for whom "from the river to the sea" means an Israeli state dominating that area.
"What goes around comes around." What an empty notion. Tell me, what actions by Israel are not justified using that ambiguous standard? And by the same token, what actions by other actors are not justified in response to Israel's actions?
I will note that I fully support Israel's right to defend its people and sovereignty over its lands. Bombing Gaza into the stone age is only one way to go about doing that and may not be the best way. I cannot be silent when people here at DU justify the intentional or negligent killing of large numbers of non-combatants by invoking Oct. 7, WWII, or "what comes around goes around."
PCIntern
(26,846 posts)not respond because it may offend some sensibilities? Not a prayer.
Its the same logic that we were told to allow us to be bullied in school. You dont want to make them madder!!!
One swift kick in the nuts ended the bullying.
Redleg
(6,121 posts)Some of the posters here suggest that Israel should use any and all military options, including those that create unacceptable civilian casualties in Gaza. I never said they should sit on their hands. I have said that they should conduct this war in accordance with the just war doctrine and consistent with international laws of warfare. I hold all nation states to the same standard.
Just_Vote_Dem
(3,132 posts)But some people only complain about Israel
Redleg
(6,121 posts)I have always criticized terrorists for committing terror and have said here, many times, that Hamas has not served the people of Gaza well or in good faith.
spike jones
(1,770 posts)In Vietnam, the US lost about 60,000 soldiers. There were up to 3 million Vietnamese killed, mostly civilians. The Wall in Washington DC is 10 feet high and 492 feet long. A similar wall for Vietnamese dead would be 100 feet high and 2,600 feet long.
Redleg
(6,121 posts)We didn't even win the war. Nor did North Vietnam prove an existential threat to the USA.
Redleg
(6,121 posts)This seems somewhat flippant and dismissive. It's probably what the Hamas terrorists were thinking when they attacked Israeli civilians on Oct. 7.
JohnSJ
(96,436 posts)DeepWinter
(438 posts)Freedom isn't free.
Democracy has a price.
Life has never been fair.
Israel is between a rock and a hard place and people LOVE to judge.
Redleg
(6,121 posts)Look at the judgment of hundreds of thousands of Israeli people protesting the way the state of Israel is conducting its operations. Freedom isn't free and life has never been fair are slogans used to tell people to accept the status quo.
Raven123
(6,006 posts)If it is just the numbers, the next question is what would feel right?
Rustynaerduwell
(726 posts)"to cause (someone) to stop and think about something carefully". The numbers give me pause. They should't?
ratchiweenie
(7,908 posts)civilians, especially women and children. Civilians make up the vast, vast majority of that 40,000. I don't see any way to justify killing children in the name of being right.
MangoPulpinaSuit
(16 posts)We will never know how many civilians died because you cannot say who is a civillian and who is a terrorist of Hamas. Many of the hostages were/are held by "CIVILIANS" and were transported around Gaza by Red Crescent. Obviously, all young children are innocent, but no one can really say that about anyone else involved.
Any death count conjured up by Hamas, the Red Crescent, and/or the Palestinian Authority should be wholly discounted. Every report I hear from them sounds like it was written by a Russian General "on the outskirts of Kyiv yesterday. "
Of course, Israel has made many mistakes, but not nearly at the level reported. Ultimately, this is almost entirely the fault of Hamas and the "civilians" that empowered them on October 7th and beyond.
KPN
(16,081 posts)Example: my sisters husband who is Lebanese, lost a cousin in Lebanon a few days ago to Israels bombing. His brother in law lost a sibling in the same bombings. Neither were Hezbollah. These are real people, not numbers.
elias7
(4,185 posts)First of all, we dont know how many of the 40,000 who died in Hamas our actual civilians versus combatants. We also dont know how many were killed by Hamas intentionally or accidentally by misfired rockets. This is a real number. Also, we are trusting the numbers that a known terrorist group are providing.
More importantly, is the concept of proportionality. If you read or listen to military strategists, proportionality its not so related to pure numbers. You have to remember that Hamas is hiding and using humans as shields, purposefully inflating numbers. That sounds wrong to me too, does it not?
malaise
(277,880 posts)Rec
And a dangerous position to express.
I have never seen so much "whataboutism" as I have with this one matter.
Apparently, boobie trapping pagers to blow up in public places and injure innocents is 100% AOK because "they started it".
malaise
(277,880 posts)duhneece
(4,236 posts)Israels killing of so many children and non-Hamas or non-terrorists puts Israel as morally wrong.
Beringia
(4,540 posts)Adila Hassim, a former South African judge
Israel was making life itself impossible for Gazans in four distinct ways, Hassim said.
First, by displacing at least eighty-five per cent of Palestinians in Gaza. Israels first evacuation order, Hassim said, issued to the roughly one million inhabitants of northern Gaza, on October 13th, itself was genocidal, because the order required immediate movement, taking only what could be carried, while no humanitarian assistance was permitted and fuel, water, and food, and other necessities of life had deliberately been cut off.
Second, she said, Israels conduct has been deliberately calculated to cause widespread hunger, dehydration, and starvation. . . . An unprecedented ninety-three per cent of the population in Gaza is facing crisis levels of hunger.
Third, Hassim argued, Israel is depriving Palestinians in Gaza of necessities such as shelter, clothes, sanitation items, and water.
Fourth, she said, Israels ongoing assault on the health-care infrastructure in Gaza renders life unsustainable.
rubbersole
(8,444 posts)...this continuing conflict has damaged Israel's reputation on the international stage. The Israeli protesters in the streets agree.
Beastly Boy
(11,098 posts)Hamas invests enormous amounts of its resources in Hamas militants while stealing resources intended for its civilians.
Yep, that sounds very wrong to me too.
KPN
(16,081 posts)Happy Hoosier
(8,356 posts)What this says to me is that the terrorists calling the shots are perfectly happy to sacrifice their people in this way.
tsSleepyTimeDwnSout
(59 posts)it looks like in israel/ gaza they are someting like 10,000 to one. the numbers listed for japan/us look like about four to one, and germany/us maybe 5 or 6 to 1.
are those calculations accurate? maybe not. not very good at math. but if so, what does "proportionality" actually mean?
tsSleepyTimeDwnSout
(59 posts)i think i got that wrong. a thousand to one?
sarisataka
(20,930 posts)tsSleepyTimeDwnSout
(59 posts)how about just posting the correct calculation in the interest of a honest discussion?
sarisataka
(20,930 posts)>40,000/339
We do not know if that 40k number is accurate or how many are combatants. We assume, but do not know if that 339 number is only IDF members or includes civilians. Also we do not know if it includes hostages who have died/were murdered in captivity.
Even with the caveats, the question of what is a "fair" ratio is open (spoiler- and unanswerable)
tsSleepyTimeDwnSout
(59 posts)personally, i am opposed to the killing of living children by anyone, ever, for any reason. as a parent i'm pretty firm on that.
i lived through the cronkite/ vietnam years. i'm well aware that neither "side" can be assumed to be telling the whole truth in any war.
TheKentuckian
(26,021 posts)for heinous depravity as long as the progenitor is also immoral and is willing to effectively use them as a sandbag or a deflector shield?
Such a piece of shit has in all practical effect a license to murder and steal children to use as chits to trade so, so much for the ardent position of protecting children.
The dead children are little more than a bloody shirt to waive to rally a defense of the terrorists, their goals, and shitty cause.
Not the children.
The terrorist glee club, just like the terrorists themselves will spend every last drop of blood for the cause and the cause is the destruction of Israel and the death of all Jews.
Mossfern
(3,118 posts)My sentiments as well.
EX500rider
(11,437 posts)The Japanese lost about 3,000,000 people in WWII, the US lost around 41,000 in the Pacific theater, that's about 71 to 1
40,000 Gazan's and 1,500 Israel's is 26 to 1
iemanja
(54,728 posts)Hamas bombed a disco, not a military installation.
Rustynaerduwell
(726 posts)I got the numbers from the UN Office for Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs.
iemanja
(54,728 posts)IronLionZion
(46,929 posts)Maybe another analogy is setting a sugarcane field on fire.
Palestinian people are also victims of Hamas. Many of them had no choice in any of this.
Redleg
(6,121 posts)Yet they are doomed to meet the same fate. "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" seems to be a common sentiment here at DU.
R Merm
(426 posts)Rustynaerduwell
(726 posts)is an existential threat to Israel. I'm sure I am more wrong than right about this conflict because I know little except it has been going on since I before I was born.
egduj
(839 posts)Well said.
lees1975
(5,901 posts)There's a reason why 2.1 million Palestinians live in the Gaza strip, which is not their original homeland. Understanding the violence and the attacks that occur in this part of the Middle East is not as simple as looking at October 7th as an unprovoked, brutal attack and leaving it at that. There is no justification for that kind of violence. However, there's a lot of history behind it, including why Hamas even came into existence, and not all of the bad falls on one side. And there won't be a resolution of the problem as long as bombs are falling on the civilian population of Gaza. Refusal of cease fire agreements can't be justified either.
Mossfern
(3,118 posts)to assess the present situation. Consider all the times the Arab nations attempted to annihilate Israel. According to Palestinians, Israel is their homeland and they will not accept Jewish people living in their "homeland." Considering that the present State of Israel is as old as I am, I would figure that Gaza and the West Bank are the "homeland" of Palestinians who were born after 1948.
Another Mossfern weird analogy; I was born and grew up in NY. I moved to NJ - do my children have the right to call themselves New Yorkers?
Please factor in the thousands of attacks on Israel since its inception- they must be factored in to your equations - no?
on edit: Well, maybe not thousands I don't know the actual number.
sarisataka
(20,930 posts)sarisataka
(20,930 posts)Hamas knew they were picking a fight with a far superior opponent and in return would suffer more casualties. In fact they boasted of it, looking forward of their soon to be "martyrs".
I have taken the liberty of clarifying your opening fact-
On Oct 7 1,139 Israelis were killed in a vicious attack, 815 were civilians. 479 Palestinians also died that day none of whom were civilians.
TheKentuckian
(26,021 posts)They know what they are doing and are saying what they support loud and clear but play act as "fair".
KPN
(16,081 posts)Cha
(305,173 posts)Martyrs". Otherwise Why would they Not have Bomb Shelters for Palestinian? Why would they shoot the ones trying to get Aid? Why would they hide behind them ?
Fuck Hamas and those who celebrate October 7.
Fozzledick
(3,890 posts)from the genocidal barbarian terrorists who committed the October 7 atrocities (and are still boasting that they will repeat them as soon as they can) while ignoring Hamas' main strategy of putting their own civilians in the line of fire to deliberately produce "martyrs" to be used as propaganda by their useful idiots throughout the world. It reminds me of the old joke about the guy who murdered his parents and then demanded sympathy because he was an orphan.
TheKentuckian
(26,021 posts)Have the terrorists surrendered?
Are the terrorists dead or disbanded?
If no then what in the world are you going off about?
Obviously the level of force has been insufficient to break or even merely pause the enemy.
iemanja
(54,728 posts)if the goal is the release of the hostages. We know, however, that is not Neanyahu's goal because he has said as much.
Fozzledick
(3,890 posts)Anything less is just enabling and encouraging Hamas to take even MORE hostages, and they're not shy about boasting that that's just what they intend to do.
iemanja
(54,728 posts)Which wants a negotiated ceasefire and return of hostages.
TheKentuckian
(26,021 posts)Force can achieve that, if there is the will and focus.
JI7
(90,454 posts)A doctor and his entire family holding hostages are considered victims becsuse they were killed during hostage rescue.
tritsofme
(18,380 posts)TheKentuckian
(26,021 posts)"Great harm to Israelis" is handwaiving material and is seemingly more than acceptable.
elias7
(4,185 posts)Who knows if that saved lives in the end. We certainly killed more Japanese than they killed us. Was that proportional?
Israel is protecting its citizens. Hamas is pushing them to the front and hiding behind and underneath them. This feels wrong to me.
What I think needs to be understood is that this was an existential moment for Israel. Gaza started a war on Israel after there has been a relative cease-fire anticipated a strong Israeli response, even hoped for it so the PR game can continue. For Israel, this is a matter of survival. Are you aware that they are also being attacked at the same time from the north by Hasbulla in Lebanon? By the Hookies from Yemen? By Iran? Israel is fighting Arab Muslim neighbors on all sides and has been doing so for 75 years. Until people appreciate this is not simply an Israel/Gaza problem, there will be little agreement in terms of an appropriate proportional response. Failing to acknowledge the asymmetry of the situation feels wrong to me.
Have you looked into the efforts that the IDF has made to avoid killing civilians? Have you acknowledged the drop off in citizen deaths over the months? Has not the IDF honed its practice? You cant start a war and not expect a response, and you dont get to hide behind civilians for protection and try to get the international community to force a cease fire, so that you can shore up and do the same thing all over again. This feels wrong top me.
But you cant take a raw number, and appreciate the process unless you do some real investigating. Have you done that? If not, this feels wrong to me.
yagotme
(3,816 posts)Ours, as we didn't have to invade a hostile territory, and if we HAD done an actual invasion, Japanese citizens (ALL) were being trained to attack us with pitchforks, if nothing else. Imagine masses of women and children attacking machine guns with pitchforks. (IIRC, the fire bombing of Tokyo had more casualties than the Bomb.) Hundreds of thousands of Japanese would have died, because they were told for decades to not give up. The "Bushido code". Their Emperor was literally their God, so whatever he said, goes. Supposedly, the US contracted out to have something like a million Purple Hearts struck, just to have ready for the invasion of Japan. We were still giving these original Hearts out until 10 years ago or so, from what I have heard.
JohnSJ
(96,436 posts)They knew exactly what would happen when they attacked Israel and slaughtered, raped, and tortured people on October 7.
What they miscalculated was they thought it unite all the hostile countries surrounding Israel, to destroy Israel.
leftstreet
(36,265 posts)surfered
(2,893 posts)Ladythatvotesblue
(219 posts)I just called my senator,
I told her that what Israel did with those pagers and walkie talkies was soooo egregious. and disgusting that it amounts to genocide.
Yes Hamas must be eradicated!
That was below a red line. BiBi has sunk to a new low.
BiBi is no different from those savages.
sarisataka
(20,930 posts)And how should Israel fight terrorists? (Should they fight them at all?)
Ladythatvotesblue
(219 posts)that involve any noncombatant IS WRONG. What Hamas did is disgusting. They should be put down.
However, the killing of any innocent citizen man, woman, or child I feel qualifies as a war crime.
sarisataka
(20,930 posts)and even if a war crime (unlikely) it would not automatically be genocide.
TheKentuckian
(26,021 posts)AverageOldGuy
(2,021 posts)Some will argue that the 40,792 is based on the Gaza Ministry of Health numbers and that organization is controlled by Hamas. Still, neutral people -- Doctors Without Borders, UN, and NGO's in Gaza report staggering civilian casualities.
Some will argue that, well, the citizens of Gaza put Hamas in power. Yes, they did -- through rigged elections with people voting sometimes literally at gunpoint.
Some will argue that Israel is surrounded by unfriendly (to say the least) neighbors who are pledged to destroy Israel and who are supported financially by some very wealthy states (Saudi Arabia, for example).
Others will argue that the Sons of Abraham -- Ishmael on one side, Isaac on the other side -- have been doing this for 2,500 years. Read Psalm 137 for how the Children of Israel planned to retaliate against the Babylonians who hauled them into captivity.
Others will argue that Israel has always rejected a "Two State Solution" -- which they have and so have the others.
Others will argue that we should cut off our supplies of weapons to Israel while others demand that Gaza be bulldozed and everyone pushed into the sea.
Now that I've said all the above, I don't have a clue as to what to do.
jaxexpat
(7,708 posts)That's what happens to an underclass neighborhood when the absentee landlords are money-drunk amoralists with serious feelings of entitlement.
ThreeNoSeep
(164 posts)Perhaps you can calculate an acceptable number of casualties for both sides so you can avoid "discomfort" with inhumane war.
RubyRose
(229 posts)Casualties were calculated by computer and the people were expected to report to a disintegration chamber.
Bad Thoughts
(2,609 posts)So long as Hamas publicly says it will attempt other 10/7 type attacks, Israel 's goal will be to eliminate Hamas.
This is not a game of numbers
Redleg
(6,121 posts)for the state and people of Israel.
JustAnotherGen
(33,412 posts)It does not give me pause.
298K Americans died in WW2.
1.972 M Japanese died.
It's war. You poke a big dog, expect retaliation in a bigly huge way. Doesn't give me pause.
Edit/Addition:
I've seen the Iraqi death toll in a completely senseless war of American Aggression at 209K . . . but I tend to believe the between 268K and 295K people killed.
4500 Americans died . . . The numbers give me pause. Should they not?
TheKentuckian
(26,021 posts)What should give pause is what you rightfully identified as the actual root cause aka the war was senseless.
Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and posed no threat to us.
Israel faces real and extremely proximate sets of threats including the ones they are actively combating.
There is no real analogy here.
elocs
(23,050 posts)and designed to stir up conflict because there are very few subjects here at DU and among us that are more divisive here than this one at a time when we need to stay united with the most important election of our lifetimes coming up and we really need to stay focused on that.
Buttoneer
(630 posts)EX500rider
(11,437 posts)And why wouldn't you count the 1,200 dead Israel's on Oct 7th in the Israel total?
Or does not that not help your "point"
TheKentuckian
(26,021 posts)Winning means maximizing enemy casualties while minimizing your own.
The only ratio that should be sought in war is as few as it takes to end the threat to zero of your own.
The closer you can come to that ratio the better job you are doing.
If the threat persists then it takes more enemy casualties to end it.
former9thward
(33,424 posts)The number of German and Japanese civilians killed by the U.S. in WW II vs. U.S. civilians was incredibly lopsided. Does that bother you?
KPN
(16,081 posts)are used in support, we have a right to voice our concern and objections. What has happened in Gaza and what is now happening in Lebanon bothers me and feels very wrong as you said.
yaesu
(8,197 posts)terrorism. Enough is enough plus this will not help our chances in the Nov election.