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Prairie Gates

(4,433 posts)
Fri Aug 16, 2024, 09:34 AM Aug 2024

Trump's View on the Military was Profoundly Shaped by his Draft Avoidance during Vietnam

As we know, his wealthy father had a quack doctor jimmy up a fake diagnosis, and there were probably additional shenanigans with the Brooklyn-Queens draft board to get him his IV-F medical classification. He was fully qualified for the draft, had attended military school, and was by most accounts a passable student athlete at baseball (he himself, of course, claims that he could have been in the major leagues). There is little doubt that he would have been drafted upon completion of his student deferments (in June 1968!), and it's quite likely that he would have been sent to Vietnam, Republic of in the Winter 1968-1969. The months immediately after Trump's graduation from college, and the end of his student deferments, were among the bloodiest of the war (see especially Ronald Spector's excellent After Tet).

He was scared. As were many.

His rich father orchestrated his IV-F classification.

At the end of Tim O'Brien's story "On the Rainy River," O'Brien's narrator, in a similar situation to Trump, having completed his college deferments, is drafted, and contemplates fleeing to Canada. He gets halfway across a Minnesota river, almost there. At the end, however, he does not go. He returns, and is in short order sent to Vietnam. The story ends poignantly with the following two sentences: "I was a coward. I went to the war." O'Brien deliberately refuses to include a transition between the two clauses, leaving the reader to fill in the meaning (and then? because? however? and? but?).

For Trump, there's no need for the second sentence. Trump was a coward. And he knows it. Every utterance he makes about the military contains that fundamental psychological kernel.

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Trump's View on the Military was Profoundly Shaped by his Draft Avoidance during Vietnam (Original Post) Prairie Gates Aug 2024 OP
He was a narcisist who was forced to be subserviant in military school getagrip_already Aug 2024 #1
It's sort of like he's a coward so he hates anybody with courage Walleye Aug 2024 #3
Yes he must denigrate those with courage Irish_Dem Aug 2024 #4
I also think he learned the "suckers and losers" bit at his father's knee Prairie Gates Aug 2024 #5
The reason that W called up so many national guard units in his war is because Walleye Aug 2024 #2
Well, that and he ran out of regular troops he could send getagrip_already Aug 2024 #6
Yes, that was the exact reason, but he got a little psychological boost from it too I think Walleye Aug 2024 #8
They were deployed in nam, coast guard also.... getagrip_already Aug 2024 #9
True, but as I remember most of the guys in those days join the guard so they wouldn't have to go to Vietnam Walleye Aug 2024 #10
You generally werent direct combat, so there was that getagrip_already Aug 2024 #14
I'm not the type to support the draft or bash draft dodgers, but... ExciteBike66 Aug 2024 #7
Yeah, but the new gop is not conservative.... getagrip_already Aug 2024 #11
Correct, it is now the party of butt-hurt boys Walleye Aug 2024 #13
They are right-wing radicals, orthoclad Aug 2024 #19
They want to say, "well he didn't lie about his record. There was no stolen valor."He fucking lied about the bone spurs. Walleye Aug 2024 #12
Exactly: and somebody else from his region went as they moved down the list Prairie Gates Aug 2024 #16
There's a spectrum Prairie Gates Aug 2024 #15
I was a draft resister. orthoclad Aug 2024 #18
He was just like all the other richies orthoclad Aug 2024 #17

getagrip_already

(17,634 posts)
1. He was a narcisist who was forced to be subserviant in military school
Fri Aug 16, 2024, 09:41 AM
Aug 2024

He was likely humiliated and demeaned rotinely. His world was collapsed while he was there and he blamed it all on military authority.

He hates military authority because it is a threat to him. It is bigger than his world and it cant exist.

Prairie Gates

(4,433 posts)
5. I also think he learned the "suckers and losers" bit at his father's knee
Fri Aug 16, 2024, 09:53 AM
Aug 2024

It sounds exactly like what his father would say as a self-justification for orchestrating the draft dodging.

Walleye

(38,795 posts)
2. The reason that W called up so many national guard units in his war is because
Fri Aug 16, 2024, 09:49 AM
Aug 2024

He joined the national guard in Texas to avoid the war in Vietnam. And he wanted to keep the illusion that he might’ve been called up to go to Vietnam as a member of the National Guard when of course that didn’t happen ever.

getagrip_already

(17,634 posts)
6. Well, that and he ran out of regular troops he could send
Fri Aug 16, 2024, 09:53 AM
Aug 2024

He couldnt use the draft which would have been political poison so he tapped the guard for more troops.

Walleye

(38,795 posts)
8. Yes, that was the exact reason, but he got a little psychological boost from it too I think
Fri Aug 16, 2024, 10:12 AM
Aug 2024

Ever since then the National Guard has been sent into active combat overseas, which didn’t really happen that much before

getagrip_already

(17,634 posts)
9. They were deployed in nam, coast guard also....
Fri Aug 16, 2024, 10:14 AM
Aug 2024

I worked with a guy in the 80's who was in the coadt guard and was deployed to nam during the war.

Walleye

(38,795 posts)
10. True, but as I remember most of the guys in those days join the guard so they wouldn't have to go to Vietnam
Fri Aug 16, 2024, 10:16 AM
Aug 2024

I know it wasn’t easy to get into you had to have connections, as I recall

getagrip_already

(17,634 posts)
14. You generally werent direct combat, so there was that
Fri Aug 16, 2024, 10:18 AM
Aug 2024

Usually those units were support, not combat.

Much less hazardous duty.

ExciteBike66

(2,694 posts)
7. I'm not the type to support the draft or bash draft dodgers, but...
Fri Aug 16, 2024, 10:04 AM
Aug 2024

It is absolutely hilarious to me that trump embodies everything that conservatives hate on the issue of service in general and serving in Vietnam in particular.

getagrip_already

(17,634 posts)
11. Yeah, but the new gop is not conservative....
Fri Aug 16, 2024, 10:16 AM
Aug 2024

The conservatives have been purged. Those left have been shut up and have moved on to greed.

Walleye

(38,795 posts)
12. They want to say, "well he didn't lie about his record. There was no stolen valor."He fucking lied about the bone spurs.
Fri Aug 16, 2024, 10:17 AM
Aug 2024

Prairie Gates

(4,433 posts)
16. Exactly: and somebody else from his region went as they moved down the list
Fri Aug 16, 2024, 10:33 AM
Aug 2024

If you were drafted by a Brooklyn-Queens draft board in Summer 1968, you can perhaps thank Donald Trump. If you made it back, that is...

Prairie Gates

(4,433 posts)
15. There's a spectrum
Fri Aug 16, 2024, 10:32 AM
Aug 2024

From real draft resisters, to people having a moral/ethical dilemma (like O'Brien's narrator), to outright cowards who use deceit and actually support the war themselves. Trump's on the bad end of that spectrum for me. It's not an all or nothing thing. I admire many draft resisters, for instance. Nobody can admire somebody who was gung-ho for the war, but got their rich Daddy to buy them a IV-F because they didn't want to actually fight it themselves.

orthoclad

(4,728 posts)
18. I was a draft resister.
Sat Aug 17, 2024, 07:10 PM
Aug 2024

Vietnam was pointless. Three million people died trying to prevent the government that we now consider a major trading partner. Ah, money talks.
Birth defects are still showing up from all the poisons we dumped on the land. And vets are still dying from Agent Orange.

orthoclad

(4,728 posts)
17. He was just like all the other richies
Sat Aug 17, 2024, 07:06 PM
Aug 2024

who bought deferments, just like all his friends. I'm sure they all thought they were sensible. Some, with political futures in mind, joined the Guard to guard against Cuban invasions (Bush).
It goes way back. Grandfather Drumpf left Germany to avoid military service, which is why they wouldn't let him back in when he tried to return.

Poor guys had harder choices during Vietnam: Canada, underground, or shitting your pants for a week before going to the physical (Ted Nugent). It was tough to get conscientious objector status. Many joined the Guard (but without the cushy jobs).

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