Effects from the man who set himself on fire that nobody is talking about:

[niyad]

Yes, the man was clearly not well, and should have had the care and treatment he so desperately needed. But I am wondering how much further the system will fail us. How many of the witnesses to that horrific moment will experIence PTSD? How many will recognize it, and be able to seek help for it? How much more collateral damage will that man's untreated condition cause?

[Walleye]

1. Those are good points, we can't act as if individual violence doesn't affect us as a whole

[niyad]

4. Exactly. There are countless observations about how witnessing acts

of kindness affect even the observers in a positive way. I don't see much about the effects of witnessing acts of violence or horror affect bystanders, unless we are talking about war.

[mopinko]

2. and how come cops couldnt get over a 4' barricade?

unfit for their jobs? cuz he got over it just fine.

[niyad]

3. I wondered about that as well.

[mucifer]

31. What do you mean? They got there with the fire extinguisher in less than 2 minutes. The man was determined to

die a horrific death. The police did a great job I think.

[mopinko]

34. oh, ok. i had heard it took a bit.

like 5 min, even tho the place was crawling w cops. glad that wasnt the case.

[jcgoldie]

36. well

I mean that dude was gonna kill himself and used enough gas it was likely already fait accompli so I dont blame cops but if you watched the video they did not do much. One came running a couple of minutes in with a fire extinguisher... he put out most of the fire on the guy then turned it on the fire behind him as he was still on fire... then the extinguisher was tapped... the guys legs were still burning... they continued to burn for like 2 minutes as 2 dozen or so cops watched doing nothing... not removing their coats and trying to smother it... nothing... until finally another extinguisher arrived.

[PCIntern]

42. Not to make light of it but they're NY cops

“Can you imagine the amount of paperwork to be reimbursed for a new police-issue coat?” I can hear them thinking.

They probably assumed he was a goner anyway. There was no question that he was going to die.

Not making excuses…just saying.

[Passages]

5. A very good question you ask.

I won't pretend to know the depth of fallout from such a horrendous event. I will guess what we have seen overall is that many Americans are in poor mental health, especially our young people. I know Biden has put in place some safeguards for people to use for a crisis, yet the problem's vastness is significant. Meaning, that it will take vigilance in all sectors of society. Why this young man with his entire life ahead of him felt not only hopeless but placed importance on how he would end his life terrifies me.


That said, it is our youth who will drive the change we need to succeed as a people. I still have a deep faith in them.

[et tu]

7. well stated and

is that an image of a m cassatt painting?

[Passages]

15. Thank you.

It looks like a similar work, but this is the artist:

Young Girl Reading, c. 1769
Jean Honoré Fragonard
https://www.nga.gov/collection/art-object-page.46303.html

[et tu]

26. thank you for the citation nt

[dlk]

6. Until enough of us care enough and voters demand it, nothing will change

Mental illness is still stigmatized and one reason treatment is seriously underfunded. With our for-profit healthcare system, the cuts are merciless with fewer beds in hospitals and fewer treatment options, year after year.

[LAS14]

8. Not directly to your point, but since the immolation is the thread topic...

... Why didn't any bystanders through coats over him? Why did it require a police officer to show up on the scene after he'd been burning close to a minute? And then have to wait for more police and a fire extinguisher. Where were the bystanders?

These facts may be wrong. I only heard one report about this.

Reminds me of that story from the 50's or 60's about the woman murdered on a Manhattan street. It sort of marked the beginning of the loss of community. Does anyone remember her name?

[area51]

9. Kitty Genovese? n/t

[Igel]

30. Completely not as hyped, that NYC much-known/much-incorrectly incident.

The falsehood spread in popular media sources many decades ago, the truth was exhumed perhaps a decade back, and the results of the investigation were published in a specialty journal and widely ignored by those who knew the truth ahead of time.

[Skittles]

33. correct

it is astounding the way they used that woman's death to push a narrative that simply was not true

[LAS14]

47. What was the truth? Just a summary. nt

[Skittles]

50. someone was by her side almost immediately after the attack

and the supposed 38 people who were aware of an attack in progress and did nothing? I think it was ultimately determined it was two people who heard the screams but "didn't want to get involved" - the cops WERE called, and most people in the building did not hear Ms. Genovese

[LAS14]

56. Interesting! Thanks.

I'll look up thread again, but can you tell me who investigated and reported on this history?

[LAS14]

46. Could we have a one sentence summary of what the truth was? nt

[LAS14]

44. Thanks! nt

[SarcasticSatyr]

10. It was Kitty Genovese . . .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kitty_Genovese#:~:text=Genovese%20ran%20toward%20the%20front,as%20a%20cry%20for%20help.

[niyad]

23. Thank you for that most informative link. The man who raped,and murdered

her, was a monster hiding in plain sight. He confessed, yet the jury took SEVEN HOURS to reach a verdict??? Sickening.

[MorbidButterflyTat]

28. Maybe because his attorney changed his plea to not guilty by reason of insanity

or, maybe because the jury were considering the death penalty. (Overturned on appeal)

JFC, this guy "participated in the Attica Prison riot," after previously escaping from prison and holding a couple hostage. BUT he was able to earn a degree while in prison.

[LAS14]

45. Thanks! nt

[Aristus]

12. As the link will show,

the news story of people ignoring the pleas of the dying Kitty Genovese because they “didn’t want to get involved” was exaggerated so greatly that it was essentially a work of fiction.

Even such clear-eyes social commentators as Harlan Ellison and MAD Magazine fell for it, and referred to it time and time again for decades.

[IbogaProject]

19. There were numerous calls during that murder

It was basically a manipulated story.

In this case, the guy climbed into an empty cordoned off space.

[niyad]

24. Interesting note, as we are discussing her murder. Her partner at the

time, Mary Ann Zielonko , just died the first part of this month. Given the times, I wonder how badly the police might have bungled the investigation, given that she was a lesbian. They certainly went after her partner, even though stabbing is generally seen as a male crime.

The "good grey lady" (new york times) has a lot to answer for with their national enquirer level "reporting" (actually just "making stuff up &quot that has had so many profound repercussions down the years. Did the rot start then, or was it merely a very clear indicator?

[MorbidButterflyTat]

29. Harlan Ellison was a social justice warrior

The Times reported what the cops told them at the time.

The number of witnesses, or exaggerated reports, does not change the FACT that Kitty was attacked, left for dead, then was attacked AGAIN when her murderer returned to finish her off. Those facts are horrific enough.

[Aristus]

35. I know. I was a huge HE fan.

He once autographed all of my copies of his books, and I got to have dinner with him.

[MorbidButterflyTat]

38. Very cool!

I'm still a fan.

I once rode in an elevator with him, in Denver at a writers' convention. All I knew of him at the time was his curmudgeonly reputation, and I was totally intimidated and didn't say a word.

[Aristus]

41. You have no doubt heard his story about someone who smarted off to him

in an elevator. It lead to the urban legend that he had thrown someone down an elevator shaft.

The truth is, to his fans, he was kind and warm, and a spellbinding conversationalist. And he was utterly charming with our server at dinner.

He just didn’t suffer fools gladly. Which is just a polite way of saying he didn’t suffer fools at all.

[markodochartaigh]

13. Didn't he use an accelerant of some kind?

I haven't actually watched the video, except of the reporters reactions. But it doesn't seem to be like someone whose apron caught on fire at a barbecue. If he went up in flames that quickly it seems that no one could have helped him at all without endangering themselves, until the fire extinguisher arrived. Also, like saving a drowning person, a panicked person on fire is likely to fight against their rescuer. Probably few people over 30 would be strong enough to provide effective aid, certainly not before they caught on fire themselves.

[Random Boomer]

14. Why make these comments if you don't know the details?

Bystanders DID try to put out the fire with their coats.

[LAS14]

48. So I could give context to my question so the detail could be addressed. nt

[Sympthsical]

21. First responders are trained to act

And sometimes there's quite a bit of training required to get a human to act against their self-preservation instincts. Look at the two reactions of the CNN reporters. You had Laura Coates going into full journalist on the scene, and the guy next to her was just staring slack-jawed.

It's important to keep in mind, that most people had no idea what they were looking at. A guy set himself on fire. Is there a gun? A bomb? A knife? What's happening there? And that isn't usually a circumstance that lends itself to snap decision making.

First responders, on the other hand, are trained for that snap decision making. They're significantly less inclined to fall into the human penchant for staring at slow motion disaster.

And we see this in other situations. Look at the school shootings in Uvalde and Memphis. In Uvalde, the lack of training became quickly evident. In Memphis, they drilled for that sort of thing. They were in there downing the gunman in moments.

We all like to think, "Yes. I would be the hero. I would leap in immediately." Which is a nice thought, but we'd never know until the situation arrived. Hell, I see my cat on the counter, know he's about to knock a glass of water to the floor, and sometimes I still just kind of watch it happen. However, if I'd had a few sessions of Asshole Cat Prevention Training, I'd probably be better about it.

[DontBelieveEastisEas]

25. Nice Points, but Clumsy Cat.

[yagotme]

49. It's not being "clumsy", it's mostly being intentional.

Have seen a cat walk along a shelf, not knocking anything off, you yell "Get down", and all hell breaks loose. Know the cat gif, "F-that"? That's a cat. To a T.

[Melon]

51. That amount of gasoline

Burning wouldn’t have been smothered with a jacket or 5. It likely would have caught the jacket on fire and definitely burned whomever tried to help. .

[obamanut2012]

53. Except that story is false about Kitty

Many people called police, and one of her neighbor's risked her life to try and help Kitty. Kitty actually died in her arms.

[electric_blue68]

11. I was definitely thinking of how people who witnessed this could be affected.

It's also horrible he couldn't get enough help in time to have prevented him from such a destructive action.

[LisaM]

52. That was always my issue with Dr. Kevorkian.

Leaving all those bodies to be discovered by hotel maids, like their jobs aren't hard enough to begin with. That always bothered me.

[shrike3]

54. You know, thanks for pointing that out. I never thought of that.

[BigmanPigman]

16. I saw his friends and neighbors' reactions...

They knew his political views so they were surprised but also not surprised. He waited until his probation was over until he killed himself.

?si=Mfbw8zJgPxrPTVpC

[TBF]

17. We ought to be talking about the substance of his Ponzi Papers as well --

the poor guy had obvious mental health issues and I agree that the ptsd is an issue too. I read in the NYTimes that he seemed to go more off the rails after his mother died a couple of years ago. And we should not stop talking about mental health (and how Reagan started the big defunding when he was president - this lies squarely with the right wing).

But there is another thing about Mr. Azzarello that we should examine and that is the substance of his obsession. Maybe at some point I'll do an OP on it. Yes, he had gotten way off track, but his actual work is not as far-fetched as some would have you think. Most will unfortunately focus on his last very sad act but bury the work he was trying so hard to bring attention to.

[TBF]

20. lol - well you have to realize not all of us are capitalists

I've always viewed capitalism as a Ponzi scheme. And I know this is a democratic party website so I'm not surprised that there would be a good number of folks here who would view that as "nutty" - after all democrats are part of the establishment even if they are on the whole more empathetic than the other major party. But, yes, I think there is some value in his work. I can hold those thoughts until after the election.

[RandomNumbers]

22. If you have any links that don't violate the TOS of this site

I would be open to at least skimming them.

I enjoy reading about ideas that either haven't occurred to me, or even I have thought about but think I disagree with - if those ideas are presented at least somewhat coherently.

I haven't had time to search out anything about the papers that guy dropped, or any more details about him - I see the event itself as a terrible tragedy but one that is best not sensationalized or having much more attention brought to it. (Mainly because of all the other struggling people out there who might think of copycat acts.)

So if you have links that pass TOS, please consider posting in a reply. (I promise I will read but not attempt to discuss here, at least until after the election.)

[TBF]

32. If you do a search for the Ponzi Papers

they will come up on Substack under the pseudonym he used & you can see what he was going on about.

I used to post more on here in the socialist forum, but I don't know if that is even active anymore. I was on here more before 2016 - I was very active when Obama was running. Like Biden he was also not particularly progressive, but I knew he could win. I can see what we have in this country, but I'm also pragmatic (and I suppose not much of a revolutionary when push comes to shove). Especially the Trump years and the very distinct ways he hurt women encourage me to remember this is a long game.

[RandomNumbers]

40. Thanks, will do! (nt)

[Patton French]

43. That's some seriously kooky stuff.

Probably shouldn’t spread it here.

[MorbidButterflyTat]

27. Probably comments about cops being too fat and out of shape,

and why didn't bystanders help quicker, will add unnecessary guilt to the inevitable PTSD. SMH.

[B.See]

37. Perhaps this commentary is a little off the point, but

I'd much rather contemplate the effects that a litany of mean-spirited, divisive, hate filled and bigoted demagoguery, batshit crazy conspiracy theories, and other associated venom, dispensed on a daily basis, 24/7 to an entire populace,

have even upon people in (relatively) full control of their faculties - much less upon our youth, and especially those living with mental illnesses.

I believe those entrusted with positions of leadership in our society have a duty to model, for the rest of us, a certain level of dignity, honour, poise, empathy, and ethical responsibility of the highest order. Instead of being vermin and scalawags of the worst.

Currently, there's way too much of the latter, for my druthers.

[Iris]

39. This is the third self-immolation in this country in 6 months

There was one in Nov/Dec and another in Atlanta sometime this year

[shrike3]

55. I did not know this. Thanks for bringing it up.