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Botany

(73,064 posts)
Thu Aug 3, 2023, 06:07 AM Aug 2023

Washingon Post: The indictment argues that Trump knew the 'big lie' was a lie

Trump “repeated his knowingly false claim” on Jan. 6 itself.


“The Defendant spread lies that there had been outcome-determinative fraud in the election and that he had actually won,” the indictment says. “These claims were false, and the Defendant knew that they were false.”

Smith cites examples — many previously known — of those around Trump directly informing him that his claims were false and his schemes dubious. They included Vice President Mike Pence, top Justice Department officials, top White House attorneys and campaign staff members, key state legislators and officials, and state and federal courts.

The indictment cites examples of Trump’s being informed that specific claims were false and then proceeding to lodge them anyway. Smith makes a point of isolating a single claim from each of five key states — Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada and Pennsylvania — each time punctuating the example by saying that Trump “repeated his knowingly false claim” on Jan. 6 itself.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/08/02/takeaways-trump-jan-6-indictment/?utm_source=pocket-newtab

* It lists six unnamed co-conspirators who have not been charged. [Please let Bannon and Stone be charged]

* The case argues that the conspirators worked to create the illusion of uncertainty

* The reaction from Republicans to the case was muted

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Washingon Post: The indictment argues that Trump knew the 'big lie' was a lie (Original Post) Botany Aug 2023 OP
Even before the 2020 election took place, T2FIFG said.... ProudMNDemocrat Aug 2023 #1
"Jack Smith and his team will be the reasons why we still have a country." Botany Aug 2023 #3
That too, Botany.. ProudMNDemocrat Aug 2023 #4
The stolen documents with America's top secrets should alone put him into the Super Max in Colorado Botany Aug 2023 #5
They Are All Fascists Through And Through MayReasonRule Aug 2023 #9
Great point Cosmocat Aug 2023 #10
I don't get why "belief" is so important viva la Aug 2023 #2
If I just return it to ya after all these years, can I just give it to ya? No cops involved? 3Hotdogs Aug 2023 #7
I think... 2naSalit Aug 2023 #8
Yeah, I see what you mean. We make all these cut-outs for religion-- viva la Aug 2023 #13
That... 2naSalit Aug 2023 #15
Bingo! In Jack Smiths actual charges knowledge of the big lie being a lie is irrelevant. Alexander Of Assyria Aug 2023 #18
The thought of Bannon & Stone being charged, tickles my manhood. 3Hotdogs Aug 2023 #6
Bannon, Stone, and STEPHEN MILLER, please Mr. Smith William Seger Aug 2023 #17
Stephen Miller is Jewish prodigitalson Aug 2023 #21
Hmmm, but I guess he'd be one of the "useful" ones (nt) William Seger Aug 2023 #22
The magats knew it was a lie all along randr Aug 2023 #11
The alternate reality created by the ShitGibbon is laughable and childlike - NoMoreRepugs Aug 2023 #12
The vast majority of Trump supporters know he is lying but they are OK w/that because he .... Botany Aug 2023 #14
Yup. ...nt 2naSalit Aug 2023 #16
The why is not all that complicated. The idiots see Trump as "one of them." Chainfire Aug 2023 #19
And yet they keep sending him their money and he keeps taking it for himself and his scams Botany Aug 2023 #20

ProudMNDemocrat

(19,351 posts)
1. Even before the 2020 election took place, T2FIFG said....
Thu Aug 3, 2023, 06:39 AM
Aug 2023

In an interview that he would not accept the results of the election if he lost as well as "If I lose, that means the election was rigged against me," He already then was sowing the seeds of doubt. Even after recounts of votes cast in states Joe Biden narrowly won, Trump still lost.

For all of the transition, the previous Administration locked out Joe Biden. It was not until the days prior to January 6th, was Joe allowed to get briefed and play catch up in order to take over the reins on January 20th. So the newest Federal Indictment surrounding Jan. 6th and the continued lying about it, Trump faces his biggest test yet. One I have to assume will label him not only a Traitor(the Documents case), but a Seditionist who tried to overthrow the Government he wanted so desperately to maintain control over. History will not be kind to him.

Jack Smith and his team of Lawyers and Investigators will be the reasons why we still have a country. The Republicans still in Trump's pocket will be literally and figuratively tarred and feathered in the press for their undying support.

Sedition and Treason are not attributes I would want to be remembered for. But those still loyal to Trump, will find it hard to shake that off as the trials proceed.

Botany

(73,064 posts)
3. "Jack Smith and his team will be the reasons why we still have a country."
Thu Aug 3, 2023, 06:47 AM
Aug 2023

The J-6 committee helped too.

BTW Trump knew he was going to lose long before the election and that is why he had
Jackie Kennedy's Rose Garden pulled out and he did that just to be a prick. In May or
June of '20 he was told by his election people that he was too far underwater to win.

ProudMNDemocrat

(19,351 posts)
4. That too, Botany..
Thu Aug 3, 2023, 06:51 AM
Aug 2023

The Jan.6th Committee did much of the major leg work in opening the wound still festering around the 2020 election. It will be up to Jack Smith and his team to prosecute and the Jury to convict. With the evidence, I cannot see how a Jury cannot let Trump get off.

Botany

(73,064 posts)
5. The stolen documents with America's top secrets should alone put him into the Super Max in Colorado
Thu Aug 3, 2023, 06:59 AM
Aug 2023

He had not only our and other nation's nuclear weapons programs but information on our spy
satellite programs too. I have a family member who worked with that stuff and to this day he/she
would be picked up and locked up if she/he talked about it. Trump was no doubt feeding Putin
information on the satellites we have Ukraine, Russia, and Belarus.

America has had 3 people @ the level of espionage that Trump was most likely at 2 of which were
the Rosenbergs (executed) and the other was the former FBI agent Robert Hansen who just died in
the Super Max serving 15 life terms.

Cosmocat

(15,086 posts)
10. Great point
Thu Aug 3, 2023, 07:49 AM
Aug 2023
that's a GREAT Point. You would think that would be a damning element if the case.

viva la

(3,912 posts)
2. I don't get why "belief" is so important
Thu Aug 3, 2023, 06:46 AM
Aug 2023

I mean, I might really believe that your Rolex is the one that went missing from my late grandfather's house-- it looks just like his!

But surely my believing that doesn't get me off from ripping it off your wrist and running away with it.

I mean, I could try to get it legally-- brought a lawsuit.
But committing a crime? My intent might be "righting this wrong that I truly believe you committed," but it's still a crime, right?

Is there something special about this crime that "belief" is important?

3Hotdogs

(13,793 posts)
7. If I just return it to ya after all these years, can I just give it to ya? No cops involved?
Thu Aug 3, 2023, 07:06 AM
Aug 2023

I'm sorry, I dinged the case a bit but other than that, it still runs good.

2naSalit

(94,939 posts)
8. I think...
Thu Aug 3, 2023, 07:35 AM
Aug 2023

That it has to do with how our laws are written and interpreted and a lot of it might have to do with the freedom of religion part of A1. In my reckoning, they don't mesh.

Most of our laws require that a jury of your peers believe, beyond a reasonable doubt, the guilt or lack thereof the defendant, not that they understand the law and decide which is truth weighed by the facts. That has always seemed problematic for me as religion and its adherents base much of life on a belief and whether that includes truth and honesty is part of the problem as seen these days. The problem being that people can understand the truth yet legally claim that they believe, based on their religion, the opposite and that's often good enough for the legal system... that they believed what they decided was the proper thing.

I would prefer that the laws and such required that, for the sake of this description, a jury decide guilt or lack thereof be based on their understanding of the law and the intersection with the truth of the matter in question based on facts and evidence presented at trial. It leaves out all the delay and BS that goes with the religious crap. One's belief system should have nothing to do with legal issues and surely have no influence over decisions or legislation.

Just my $0.02

viva la

(3,912 posts)
13. Yeah, I see what you mean. We make all these cut-outs for religion--
Thu Aug 3, 2023, 07:56 AM
Aug 2023

So it kind of bleeds over, that "believing" is kind of sheltered because you can't argue with someone's belief. You can argue about whether something is factual or not, but since belief isn't factual, there's no argument.

Groan. It's like we're supposed to let them live in the dark ages and drag us there too.

2naSalit

(94,939 posts)
15. That...
Thu Aug 3, 2023, 08:08 AM
Aug 2023

Is their cudgel. They have weaponized our government using the backdoor of religion. I think religion is going to need some revised status including relieving them of tax exemption... that allows them to amass great wealth which is a problem in itself.

 

Alexander Of Assyria

(7,839 posts)
18. Bingo! In Jack Smiths actual charges knowledge of the big lie being a lie is irrelevant.
Thu Aug 3, 2023, 09:12 AM
Aug 2023

The talking indictment talking is talking to trumps lawyers, not to you or I or the media! No one else!

Translation…we don’t need to prove specific knowledge, all the charges are of general intent!

Specific versus general intent law, a well known criminal law concept journos should become familiar with, as so many appear struggling.

William Seger

(11,287 posts)
17. Bannon, Stone, and STEPHEN MILLER, please Mr. Smith
Thu Aug 3, 2023, 09:01 AM
Aug 2023

Last edited Thu Aug 3, 2023, 10:29 AM - Edit history (1)

That smug little weasel-faced NAZI would look good in an orange jumpsuit.

prodigitalson

(3,039 posts)
21. Stephen Miller is Jewish
Thu Aug 3, 2023, 12:50 PM
Aug 2023

I point that out not to disagree with you. I lay it out there because, I mean what the fucking fuck. Right?

randr

(12,515 posts)
11. The magats knew it was a lie all along
Thu Aug 3, 2023, 07:51 AM
Aug 2023

They only wanted to deny our votes in the end. Our votes that elected our President will not be denied.

NoMoreRepugs

(10,915 posts)
12. The alternate reality created by the ShitGibbon is laughable and childlike -
Thu Aug 3, 2023, 07:51 AM
Aug 2023

yet the Deplorable base believes it as gospel. Do you realize how ignorant you have to be to believe in trumpy? This country might never fully recover from this madness.

Botany

(73,064 posts)
14. The vast majority of Trump supporters know he is lying but they are OK w/that because he ....
Thu Aug 3, 2023, 08:07 AM
Aug 2023

... scratches their racist anti educational itches and damn does that feel good to them besides
it makes "the libs" sad. Although they might know down deep that he is lying but Good God in
butter I just don't get why they keep sending him money knowing all along that he will just steal
it for himself.

Putin installed Trump to make America a divided country and in that he, Putin, was very successful.

 

Chainfire

(17,757 posts)
19. The why is not all that complicated. The idiots see Trump as "one of them."
Thu Aug 3, 2023, 11:13 AM
Aug 2023

They know that he hates Blacks, Jews and liberals, gays and other undesirables, and he tells them so in code. Trump gives them justification for being haters; he claims that he respects and loves the Nazis and similar types among them. Trump makes somebodies out of nobodies. They think that the liberals hate Trump because of his great success in life.

What they do not know is that Trump sees them as insignificant pawns who's only value is the adulation and money that they send him. They have an emotional investment in Trump that mimics religion; he is their savior. If that truth ever hits them, if they find out how they have been played, there will be hell to pay. Hell hath no fury like a Nazi scorned.

Botany

(73,064 posts)
20. And yet they keep sending him their money and he keeps taking it for himself and his scams
Thu Aug 3, 2023, 12:16 PM
Aug 2023

After the 2020 election he took in something like $70 million to "stop the steal" and to help in the
2 Georgia Senate races and of that 70 million Trump spent zero on his "stop the steal" scam and
zero on the Georgia Senate races he just kept the money and most likely spent it on his legal fees.

But Trump has given "them" the right to use the word n****r and by God that feels good to them.

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