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marmar

(78,201 posts)
Tue Jul 4, 2023, 08:47 AM Jul 2023

"On this July 4, we would do well to renounce nationalism and all its symbols: ........


....... its flags, its pledges of allegiance, its anthems, its insistence in song that God must single out America to be blessed.

Is not nationalism—that devotion to a flag, an anthem, a boundary so fierce it engenders mass murder—one of the great evils of our time, along with racism, along with religious hatred?

These ways of thinking—cultivated, nurtured, indoctrinated from childhood on— have been useful to those in power, and deadly for those out of power.

National spirit can be benign in a country that is small and lacking both in military power and a hunger for expansion (Switzerland, Norway, Costa Rica and many more). But in a nation like ours—huge, possessing thousands of weapons of mass destruction—what might have been harmless pride becomes an arrogant nationalism dangerous to others and to ourselves.

Our citizenry has been brought up to see our nation as different from others, an exception in the world, uniquely moral, expanding into other lands in order to bring civilization, liberty, democracy.

That self-deception started early. ....."

-- Howard Zinn, from The Progressive, 2006

https://progressive.org/latest/howard-zinn-s-july-4-wisdom-stands-test-time/







36 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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"On this July 4, we would do well to renounce nationalism and all its symbols: ........ (Original Post) marmar Jul 2023 OP
Thank you... Think. Again. Jul 2023 #1
Sounds like a good strategy to lose elections. brooklynite Jul 2023 #2
He seems to conflate patriotism and nationalism. N/T lapucelle Jul 2023 #3
how thick is the line between "patriotism," "nationalism," rampartc Jul 2023 #8
All the more reason not to erase the line, as Zinn seems wont to do. N/T lapucelle Jul 2023 #19
Conservatives call themselves patriots every day. Boomerproud Jul 2023 #10
Patriotism and nationalism are two very different things. lapucelle Jul 2023 #17
YES, the kind of thing that results in the treestar Jul 2023 #24
Truth. Ron Green Jul 2023 #4
Thanks for proving my point... brooklynite Jul 2023 #5
not exactly a real strong winning platform stopdiggin Jul 2023 #11
Post removed Post removed Jul 2023 #22
Agree. sinkingfeeling Jul 2023 #6
Zinn flogged the "Gore is the lesser of two evils" narrative in 2000 when he stumped for Nader. lapucelle Jul 2023 #7
that's the thing about purists and zealots stopdiggin Jul 2023 #14
He was a socialist, and no surprise that he was a naderite. Same ideology of the DSA, JohnSJ Jul 2023 #21
Nah. First year I've felt like flying the flag since tRump era. txwhitedove Jul 2023 #9
A quote attributed to Albert Einstein: lastlib Jul 2023 #12
Yep, but unfortunately it's been imbedded in our genes since we wandered the plains of Africa. paleotn Jul 2023 #18
A losing message if I ever heard one. Elessar Zappa Jul 2023 #13
Pt. Duppers Jul 2023 #26
We're exceptional for two things only. paleotn Jul 2023 #15
+1 treestar Jul 2023 #25
Yeah, except that everyone is not born equal. progressoid Jul 2023 #28
Equal before the law paleotn Jul 2023 #36
+100 nt reACTIONary Jul 2023 #32
I think American artistic expressions are worthy of pride misanthrope Jul 2023 #35
-1 Mosby Jul 2023 #16
What a bunch of Bullshit. Howard Zinn, a self-described anarchist and socialist JohnSJ Jul 2023 #20
Agreed. This is nothing more than extremist propaganda. Progressive Lawyer Jul 2023 #23
+100 nt reACTIONary Jul 2023 #30
Plenty of MAGA think Dems are not even American IronLionZion Jul 2023 #27
DURec leftstreet Jul 2023 #29
America, Embodiment of the spirit of... reACTIONary Jul 2023 #31
Agreed. Xavier Breath Jul 2023 #33
K&R Blue Owl Jul 2023 #34
 

brooklynite

(96,882 posts)
2. Sounds like a good strategy to lose elections.
Tue Jul 4, 2023, 09:04 AM
Jul 2023

Please like to feel pride: pride in their family, their hometown, their school, their hall club…..telling them that their pride is misplaced will push them towards the Parry that says they SHOULD be proud.

rampartc

(5,835 posts)
8. how thick is the line between "patriotism," "nationalism,"
Tue Jul 4, 2023, 09:31 AM
Jul 2023

and where i think the usa is : "jingoism"

We don't want to fight but by Jingo if we do
We've got the ships, we've got the men, we've got the money too

Boomerproud

(8,571 posts)
10. Conservatives call themselves patriots every day.
Tue Jul 4, 2023, 09:55 AM
Jul 2023

They are the ones who have sullied the term. We need to look in the mirror and have a heart to heart talk.

lapucelle

(19,690 posts)
17. Patriotism and nationalism are two very different things.
Tue Jul 4, 2023, 10:13 AM
Jul 2023

If anyone wants to look in the mirror and have a heart to heart talk, they might want to begin by asking themselves if their zeal for abstract ideological purity helped to enable either a very real Bush or Trump presidency.

As for co-opting terminology, when third party purists effectively dumbed down the term "evil" in 2000 and 2016, they did their part to remake this country into a decidedly different nation. Howard Zinn is among them.

One approach to ensure it doesn't happen a third time is to push back on equivocation wherever it is encountered.



treestar

(82,383 posts)
24. YES, the kind of thing that results in the
Tue Jul 4, 2023, 11:11 AM
Jul 2023

"bad messaging" of the Democrats - ideological purity leads to messaging that turns off the average voters and we need those voters.

Ron Green

(9,853 posts)
4. Truth.
Tue Jul 4, 2023, 09:14 AM
Jul 2023

Touting this bloated and pernicious country is wrong-headed any day of the year; on July 4th it’s especially appropriate to examine what it’s become compared to what it could have been.

 

brooklynite

(96,882 posts)
5. Thanks for proving my point...
Tue Jul 4, 2023, 09:15 AM
Jul 2023

Go out on the campaign trail touting the US as a "bloated and pernicious country" and see how many votes you get.

Willing to bet President Biden won’t be saying this today.

stopdiggin

(13,279 posts)
11. not exactly a real strong winning platform
Tue Jul 4, 2023, 10:00 AM
Jul 2023

"Your forefathers, grandfathers, sons and daughters are bloated and pernicious evil doers .." "Vote for me and I shall punish them!"

Paid for by the B-P (Bloated and Pernicious) Party

----- ----- ---- -------

Response to brooklynite (Reply #5)

lapucelle

(19,690 posts)
7. Zinn flogged the "Gore is the lesser of two evils" narrative in 2000 when he stumped for Nader.
Tue Jul 4, 2023, 09:20 AM
Jul 2023

He contributed to the Bush victory which led to the Roberts Court, Alito's rise, and the Citizens United decision.

I have heard all the arguments about the lesser evil, but I know that if we keep voting for the lesser evil, we forever get nothing but evil. I do not want to surrender my conscience to a corrupt political system.

https://www.marxists.org/history/etol/newspape/isr-iso/2000/no15/zinn.htm

stopdiggin

(13,279 posts)
14. that's the thing about purists and zealots
Tue Jul 4, 2023, 10:06 AM
Jul 2023

They never quite clue in to the fact that their extremism - is almost invariably connected to ugly result

"Beware of people that like to start fires .. "

JohnSJ

(97,259 posts)
21. He was a socialist, and no surprise that he was a naderite. Same ideology of the DSA,
Tue Jul 4, 2023, 10:57 AM
Jul 2023

Democratic Socialists of America, who blamed the US for Russia invading Ukraine

lastlib

(25,201 posts)
12. A quote attributed to Albert Einstein:
Tue Jul 4, 2023, 10:02 AM
Jul 2023
"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind."



(I tend to think of it more as a cancer, but never mind me.)

paleotn

(19,853 posts)
18. Yep, but unfortunately it's been imbedded in our genes since we wandered the plains of Africa.
Tue Jul 4, 2023, 10:15 AM
Jul 2023

We've advanced faster than our brains could evolve. Some consider that a limiting factor when it comes to the longevity of intelligent civilizations in the cosmos. What worked for us as scattered hunter gatherers has become damn dangerous as we rapidly advanced technologically and may cause our extinction, in a nuclear exchange in our case. Unfortunately, evolution works far slower than our technological advancement.

Elessar Zappa

(16,292 posts)
13. A losing message if I ever heard one.
Tue Jul 4, 2023, 10:03 AM
Jul 2023

Tell people they shouldn’t be proud of the country and watch them go to the Republican Party.

paleotn

(19,853 posts)
15. We're exceptional for two things only.
Tue Jul 4, 2023, 10:07 AM
Jul 2023

One: A nation based not on tribe, ethnicity, religion or culture, but based on a set of ideas. That everyone is born equal and have inalienable rights. The founders did a lot of borrowing, but took those themes to their logical conclusions. We're certainly imperfect in fulfilling those ideas, but we do try more often than not, so in that, I am proud to be an American. If Zinn or the flag wavers he dislikes are looking for perfect, forget it. They'll never find it, but we do the best we can most of the time.

Second: Most important when it comes to our wealth. A group of people, technologically advanced for their time, were set loose on a continent, mind boggling rich with resources, and populated by far less numerous and less advanced peoples who could be easily pushed aside. The Mississippi River system is itself unique on the plant in that it's navigable for hundreds and hundreds of miles throughout the heart of the continent. The valleys of that gigantic river system are some of the most fertile land on the planet. Given all that, it would have been highly unusual if we DIDN'T become unbelievably wealthy and powerful.

paleotn

(19,853 posts)
36. Equal before the law
Tue Jul 4, 2023, 02:09 PM
Jul 2023

But even in that we fail too often. We’re not perfect as I clearly stated but at least we try. And we were the first to do so. Ask the folks trying the immigrate across our southern border. Interestingly they don’t whine about the particulars nearly as much as we do.

misanthrope

(8,369 posts)
35. I think American artistic expressions are worthy of pride
Tue Jul 4, 2023, 01:24 PM
Jul 2023

Our cuisine is a grand illustration of how human cultures merge and morph. Turkey, corn, beans, peppers, tomatoes, squash, were a foundation that merged with African, European and Asian cuisine to make wholly new culinary traditions. My life would poorer without the joys of barbecue, black-eyed peas, fried okra, freshly sliced tomatoes, cornbread, and greens. Or jambalaya, gumbo, chili, Reuben sandwiches, New York cheesecake, clam chowder, pancakes and maple syrup, biscuits and gravy, pumpkin pie, peach cobbler, and so on.

The same can be said for the arts, in all realms. Jazz, blues and rock are American products, possible through the situations in our history. Or Aaron Copland, Amy Beach, Steve Reich, Jennifer Higdon, and John Glass.

Same with the writing of John Steinbeck, Lorraine Hansberry, Mark Twain, Carson McCullers, and Cormac McCarthy. Or the visual creations of Edward Hopper, Jasper Johns, Georgia O' Keeffe, Jacob Lawrence, and Amy Sherald. Or the choreography of Martha Graham, Merce Cunningham, Isadora Duncan, and Katherine Dunham.

The American development of and influence on motion pictures as an art form is inescapable.

There's a lot of American culture to be proud of beyond the political.

IronLionZion

(47,388 posts)
27. Plenty of MAGA think Dems are not even American
Tue Jul 4, 2023, 11:38 AM
Jul 2023

I've always found it ironic that these idiots claim to be patriotic while undermining American institutions, land, and people as much as they can.

reACTIONary

(6,262 posts)
31. America, Embodiment of the spirit of...
Tue Jul 4, 2023, 12:04 PM
Jul 2023

.... the Age of Enlightenment...

Our citizenry has been brought up to see our nation as different from others, an exception in the world, uniquely moral, expanding into other lands in order to bring civilization, liberty, democracy.


Which is why the Statue of Liberty face out to the Atlantic, enlightening the world.

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