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Botany

(73,168 posts)
Fri Jun 9, 2023, 08:47 AM Jun 2023

I will post this for one last time as per Trump and espionage

America has had 3 people who were convicted of espionage @ the level which Trump might
have very well been at and we executed 2 of them the Rosenbergs and the other one just
died in the U.S. Super Max Prison in Colorado as he was doing 15 life terms. Please remember
that many of the top secret documents found in Trump's bedroom and desk were copies so
is their any doubt that he was selling and or trading that classified information he stole.

Please DoJ ask that he surrender his pass port and have an ankle monitor put on him too.
He is a traitor to America, a Russian asset, and a flight risk so don't give him that chance.

Winter 2017: Trump selling out America in the Oval Office by telling Russians Lavrov and Kislyak
about and Israeli agent inside of ISIS in Syria. America's intelligence operations has lost contacts
and most likely agents thanks to Trump's release/selling information about those operations.

36 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
I will post this for one last time as per Trump and espionage (Original Post) Botany Jun 2023 OP
and gag order GenXer47 Jun 2023 #1
He has desecrated our Nation as the world watches Beachnutt Jun 2023 #2
Great meme! PatSeg Jun 2023 #22
And ground his plane! Nt leftieNanner Jun 2023 #3
Don't forget Aldrich Ames. House of Roberts Jun 2023 #4
Good catch thank you Botany Jun 2023 #5
it's been explained before that the 'copies' factor stopdiggin Jun 2023 #6
The only thing I've said about 'original documents' is louis-t Jun 2023 #12
trading information .. is just exactly that stopdiggin Jun 2023 #17
Thanks for pointing this out. ShazzieB Jun 2023 #20
thing is, we've covered this territory (more than once) on DU already. stopdiggin Jun 2023 #23
I agree, he'd be even dumber than we thought if he gave up the originals. Ligyron Jun 2023 #27
I wouldn't mind him in exile in a small studio apartment down the hall from Ed Snowden dutch777 Jun 2023 #7
We may not know for a while if charges will be brought regarding selling or disseminating wiggs Jun 2023 #8
Very good analysis. You might be right about Laura PourMeADrink Jun 2023 #18
What would be the basis for switching to DC? FL is the venue for at least one espionage charge. JudyM Jun 2023 #30
Putin's Puppet By Proxy. czarjak Jun 2023 #9
Robert Hansson's Traildogbob Jun 2023 #10
One of the files he had was marked TK and that means it had to do with our remote sensing programs.. Botany Jun 2023 #13
Thank you Traildogbob Jun 2023 #21
When ever you hear "them" talking about Hunter Biden and his laptop scream RUSSIAN TALKING POINT Botany Jun 2023 #28
🤜🤛 Traildogbob Jun 2023 #29
What are you talking about? ExWhoDoesntCare Jun 2023 #34
Good post, Botany! BComplex Jun 2023 #32
What Trump said to Kysliak and Lavrov Kid Berwyn Jun 2023 #11
Fry him for Helsinki alone Ponietz Jun 2023 #19
The second i heard Espionage Act... Scottie Mom Jun 2023 #14
Sigh ExWhoDoesntCare Jun 2023 #35
I think if he does go, it will be to Saudi Arabia. He can be tried in absentia. Good riddance. Joinfortmill Jun 2023 #15
Good points. ShazzieB Jun 2023 #24
This message was self-deleted by its author Joinfortmill Jun 2023 #16
Violation of the "espionage act" does NOT automatically constitute "espionage" brooklynite Jun 2023 #25
Personally I do not see Trump as a flight risk... brooklynite Jun 2023 #26
With all his attorneys abandoning him, he just might get the bright idea to represent himself. Ligyron Jun 2023 #31
Federal trials are never televised whether in Florida or anyplace else. former9thward Jun 2023 #33
I don't see him as one, either. ExWhoDoesntCare Jun 2023 #36

House of Roberts

(5,838 posts)
4. Don't forget Aldrich Ames.
Fri Jun 9, 2023, 09:17 AM
Jun 2023

Unless you consider his level of espionage to be higher than Trump, the Rosenbergs, and Robert Hanssen.

stopdiggin

(13,314 posts)
6. it's been explained before that the 'copies' factor
Fri Jun 9, 2023, 10:10 AM
Jun 2023

has very little relevance. So, please, for the sake of accuracy (as well as just plain old common sense) - don't be assigning a whole lot of weight to whether something had a 'banded margin' or not. It just isn't significant.

- "is their any doubt that he was selling and or trading that classified information he stole."

'Copies' don't even make for a solid conjecture - much less evidence or proof. Such evidence may eventually come to light ... But this doesn't come near to being it.

(there's some rule that 'foreign interests' must only deal in original documents?) ----- -----

louis-t

(23,956 posts)
12. The only thing I've said about 'original documents' is
Fri Jun 9, 2023, 10:40 AM
Jun 2023

It makes them a lot more marketable. Harder to fake an original.

stopdiggin

(13,314 posts)
17. trading information .. is just exactly that
Fri Jun 9, 2023, 11:06 AM
Jun 2023

I'm going to hazard that 'original copy' is probably rarely encountered - and not a big consideration.

But the whole premise here, that all the 'originals' have found their way into 'other hands' - is just slap-dash, and without any kind of foundation. Like I said - we might find out ... Some day. But what we have now (or, excuse me - what we know now) doesn't half get us there.

ShazzieB

(19,357 posts)
20. Thanks for pointing this out.
Fri Jun 9, 2023, 11:32 AM
Jun 2023

I agree that whether or which of those documents is a copy as opposed to an original doesn't prove what some seem to assume it proves. Eventually we're going to know a lot more than we do now. In the meantime, I doubt that we know nearly as much as we may think we do.

stopdiggin

(13,314 posts)
23. thing is, we've covered this territory (more than once) on DU already.
Fri Jun 9, 2023, 11:46 AM
Jun 2023

Sigh. And, still we talk about 'other people' living in a bubble ..

Ligyron

(7,929 posts)
27. I agree, he'd be even dumber than we thought if he gave up the originals.
Fri Jun 9, 2023, 12:02 PM
Jun 2023

Even he knew somebody might come looking for them someday and if the originals were gone...

OK, you're a foreign actor wanting info and will pay.The fact that the President of the United States is the source makes them golden...copies or not.

I don't think Trump would dare get his one of his minions involved in an attempt to stay 1000 yrds away from such a transaction. Two people can keep a secret only if one of them are dead.

Naw, he'd do the deal himself cause none are as smart or clever as he is. This is all assuming he actually did sell them, which at this point we have no idea.

But can you imagine how the country would go nutz if they have him dead to rights doing so or on film in a sting operation? He'd for sure be toast then.

dutch777

(3,837 posts)
7. I wouldn't mind him in exile in a small studio apartment down the hall from Ed Snowden
Fri Jun 9, 2023, 10:12 AM
Jun 2023

Still try him in absentia but let him show his true weak kneed bone spur evading sycophant to dictators self. North Korea would also be an option.

wiggs

(8,058 posts)
8. We may not know for a while if charges will be brought regarding selling or disseminating
Fri Jun 9, 2023, 10:22 AM
Jun 2023

national security docs. Based on what I'm reading this morning, we might see on Tuesday exactly how many charges there are and what they are. They may not include dissemination, even if SC/DOJ thinks he did...for a couple of reasons:

...might be very hard to convict on the most serious stuff in Florida. Treason, treachery, spying...high bars for conviction

...it might be they are holding the mosts serious charges for now. perhaps if they can get a plea TPTB might prefer we don't air our complete Trump dirty laundry in public. Not a good look for us that we elected a traitor and foreign asset to office

...more likely, selling or disseminating docs might be charged in DC not Florida.

We all know he's not above selling, trading, or showing off secrets. If it's provable and chargeable further indictments might drop in DC

But yes...we might get clues to what kind of trouble he's in if the court imposes strict bond, ankle bracelet, passport revocation, etc

 

Laura PourMeADrink

(42,770 posts)
18. Very good analysis. You might be right about
Fri Jun 9, 2023, 11:09 AM
Jun 2023

more serious espionage charges, if they exist. Need lots of time to prove.

Heard a legal analyst say yesterday that time was of essence, and it was very smart to limit charges to 7. Perhaps the ability to win was first priority?

Traildogbob

(10,599 posts)
10. Robert Hansson's
Fri Jun 9, 2023, 10:28 AM
Jun 2023

Bunk just opened up. 23 hours per day solitude. ( selling secret docs as high level counter intelligence FBI (2000). Put a dibs on that cell.

Botany

(73,168 posts)
13. One of the files he had was marked TK and that means it had to do with our remote sensing programs..
Fri Jun 9, 2023, 10:42 AM
Jun 2023

... aka satellites and even though he was out of office when Putin invaded Ukraine for a 2nd
time you can bet Trump both in office and out of office was telling his master (Vlad) about the
satellites we had and still have over Ukraine, Belarus, and Russia in geosynchronous orbit. The
man is an active Russia asset.

A New Report Adds Evidence That Trump Was a Russian Asset
He helped Putin manipulate the U.S. election in 2020, as he did in 2016.

Donald Trump was a tool in a long-running Russian campaign to weaken the United States. That’s been documented in Republican-led investigative reports, and now it has been updated with new evidence, thanks to the U.S. Intelligence Community’s assessment of the 2020 election. The report, drafted by the CIA, the FBI, and several other agencies, was released in unclassified form on Tuesday, but it was presented in classified form on Jan. 7. In other words, it was compiled, written, and edited during Trump’s administration. It destroys his lies about the election, and it exposes him as a Russian asset.

snip

As to Russia, the report leaves no doubt: In 2020, as in 2016, “President Putin authorized, and a range of Russian government organizations conducted, influence operations” to help Trump and hurt his Democratic opponent. For example, “Shortly after the 2018 midterm elections, Russian intelligence cyber actors attempted to hack organizations primarily affiliated with the Democratic Party.” Then, in late 2019, Russia’s military intelligence service, the GRU, “conducted a phishing campaign against subsidiaries of Burisma holdings, likely in an attempt to gather information related to President Biden’s family.” Throughout the 2020 election, agents “connected to the Russian Federal Security Service,” FSB, planted negative stories about Biden. Internet operatives working for the Kremlin, including the troll farm that had boosted Trump in 2016, continued to promote “Trump and his commentary, including repeating his political messaging.”

Attacks on Biden and his son, Hunter, were part of this operation. Through “US officials and prominent US individuals, some of whom were close to former President Trump and his administration,” the report says Russia’s intelligence services “repeatedly spread unsubstantiated or misleading claims about President Biden and his family’s alleged wrongdoing related to Ukraine.” In this way, Trump’s circle “laundered” the Russian-planted stories, which were then recirculated—and promoted by Russia’s online proxies—as American news.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/03/trump-russian-asset-election-intelligence-community-report.html

Traildogbob

(10,599 posts)
21. Thank you
Fri Jun 9, 2023, 11:41 AM
Jun 2023

For this detail. Never gonna hear this in media. Saving this to memorize the details.
And I am sure you know who Hannson was selling intel to. During late nineties, earliest 20000. What happened in 2001?
Details were never released of his espionage conviction.
And he was wacko religious.
Putin has been peeling the skin of Democracy away from us for decades. And GQP have been getting paid to assist.
RIGHT NOW we need to send a message to those in power selling America to Russia and the Saudies. Not just trump. ALL his cohorts, including media and billionaires (Golfer types)
These cases against trump is a now or never opportunity to salvage democracy and this country.
We CAN NOT fumble this ball.

Botany

(73,168 posts)
28. When ever you hear "them" talking about Hunter Biden and his laptop scream RUSSIAN TALKING POINT
Fri Jun 9, 2023, 12:05 PM
Jun 2023

That article (I think) is the unreleased parts of the Mueller Report and it was done with
Republicans in control of that committee.

 

ExWhoDoesntCare

(4,741 posts)
34. What are you talking about?
Sat Jun 10, 2023, 09:29 PM
Jun 2023

We know plenty about Hanssen's conviction. The terms of his deal were public knowledge: He pleaded guilty to 15 espionage charges, and got a life sentence without possibility of parole.

That's what happened in 2001, and it was all on the public record. All over the news, even.

Furthermore, with anything he took that was classified, *nobody* who knew details about it would discuss it. They wouldn't discuss een the title of a document, because even that title is classified. They might give you a bit of the gist of it, but nothing concrete. Because anyone who did that would go to jail themselves for it.

Just because you don't know every detail about an espionage convcition doesn't mean there's some elaborate conspiracy at play. It only means that the information is something you have no need to know. Ever. It's that sensitive for our national security.

That's the point of classified info--only the people who need to know it get access to it. That wasn't you or me or anyone else among John or Jane Public.

Kid Berwyn

(19,090 posts)
11. What Trump said to Kysliak and Lavrov
Fri Jun 9, 2023, 10:36 AM
Jun 2023


“I just fired the head of the FBI. He was crazy, a real nut job," Trump said, according to The Times. "I faced great pressure because of Russia. That's taken off.”

"I'm not under investigation," he added.

Sources:

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/05/10/527755991/trump-meets-with-russias-lavrov-at-the-white-house-today

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-nut-job-james-comey-russia-2017-5

ETA: Which reminds me, we still don't know what Trump and Putin talked about all those times without aids or translators.

Scottie Mom

(5,815 posts)
14. The second i heard Espionage Act...
Fri Jun 9, 2023, 10:46 AM
Jun 2023

...my first thought was the Rosenbergs. IMO, tRump is a traitor and an ankle monitor and full confinement to Maga Loco IMO does not cut it when the punishment has been life or execution in past sentencing.

The fact that he is a former POTUS does not minimize the fact that he is a traitor to this country. PERIOD!

 

ExWhoDoesntCare

(4,741 posts)
35. Sigh
Sat Jun 10, 2023, 09:33 PM
Jun 2023

You may want him killed, but nothing he's charged with lists death as a penalty.

Read the indictment, because it lists the penalty for each count against him. Four of the charges have a max prison sentence of 20 years; for 31 of them, again, the max is a prison sentence, this time of 10 years, and 2 have max prison sentences of 5 years. Each count can incur a fine up to $250,000.

No death sentence for any of them.

Really.

Joinfortmill

(17,183 posts)
15. I think if he does go, it will be to Saudi Arabia. He can be tried in absentia. Good riddance.
Fri Jun 9, 2023, 10:46 AM
Jun 2023

It will solve a lot of our problems. If he's convicted, where will he serve his prison term, Mar-a-Lago? No, let him run and be a pariah forever more.

ShazzieB

(19,357 posts)
24. Good points.
Fri Jun 9, 2023, 11:46 AM
Jun 2023

I hate to admit it, but I never even thought about trying him in absentia. When people have talked about him fleeing to someplace like Saudi Arabia, my reaction has been "Noooo! I want him to stay here and face the music!" Thanks for reminding me that he could still face the music even if he does run.

I'd still rather see him in prison than living a relatively cushy life as the guest of the Saudis, but being an international pariah is nothing to sneeze at.

Response to Botany (Original post)

 

brooklynite

(96,882 posts)
25. Violation of the "espionage act" does NOT automatically constitute "espionage"
Fri Jun 9, 2023, 11:55 AM
Jun 2023

Dozens of people have been convicted for lesser violations of the Act.

Ligyron

(7,929 posts)
31. With all his attorneys abandoning him, he just might get the bright idea to represent himself.
Fri Jun 9, 2023, 12:26 PM
Jun 2023

Now wouldn't that be hilarious and just a dream come true?

If this trial is televised, and many in Florida are and have been, it might be hard for him to turn down a chance to be on stage and in the spotlight worldwide every day.

If he's convicted, then the problem would be he'd no doubt qualify for a new trial based on incompetent representation. Any judge, regardless of political leanings, would be hard pressed to dispute that claim.

former9thward

(33,424 posts)
33. Federal trials are never televised whether in Florida or anyplace else.
Fri Jun 9, 2023, 10:26 PM
Jun 2023

His attorneys are not "abandoning" him. They are leaving in a legal tactical maneuver. He will be represented.

 

ExWhoDoesntCare

(4,741 posts)
36. I don't see him as one, either.
Sat Jun 10, 2023, 09:38 PM
Jun 2023

It isn't so much that he considers himself innocent, IMO, but that he thinks of a trial not as a matter of justice, but as a challenge to beat the other side. He has to win, at whatever he's facing. Winning, being a winner, is what he cares about.

His guilt or innocence is immaterial to that.

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