I am not getting the drag show blow up on the right.. most were raised on drag shows

[Peacetrain]

especially if they grew up in the 50's and 60's... Milton Berle.. Flip Wilson ..

sorry folks.. I am just stymied by the hypocrisy.. They loved Geraldine (Flip) and would have taken the kids and Granny to see him if he were reading books at the library..

[niyad]

1. It is the latest btight shiny thing. Keep your atrention focused here while they

are screwing us over while people are not paying attention.

[FoxNewsSucks]

2. It's a double bonus for them,

not just useful to keep corporate media distracted so their crimes goes uncovered, drag (along with "creeping trans&quot hits the ignorant bigoted MAGAt hotbutton extra-hard. So they also get the benefit of really stirring up the hate.

[MissMillie]

3. It's part of the culture war they claim to want no part of (n/t)

.

[Kid Berwyn]

4. I hear ya.

[calimary]

33. Indeed!

This photo should be in EVERY campaign ad for ANY campaign featuring the Orange guy, or Giuliani endorsements. I kinda doubt Rudy will be running for anything much of his own political designs (except running for cover).

[Hugh_Lebowski]

5. Fundamentally, I think it's because they refuse to believe people are born trans

Just like they refuse the idea that people are born gay. It offends their religious sensibilities along the lines of 'God wouldn't make people this way'.

Ergo, since gay and trans people indeed exist, quite obviously, the alternative explanation is that they're made-to-be gay/trans, of course as a product of the 'agenda' of the evil liberals, involved in a giant conspiracy to do Satan's work.

And they've decided (or perhaps more accurately, been led to decide by RW demagogues) that drag shows are one of the means by which their kids are being 'turned' to the Dark Side.

I remember similar shit in the late 70's/early 80's with their trying to make it illegal for gay teachers to work in schools, same justification. This is nothing new, they've been working this angle for decades.

Shit doesn't have to make logical sense in their world, they already believe in a magical sky creature who created human beings and controls everything that happens in the world.

Their minds just don't work like ours, to state it very simply. I think it's a genetic difference, as I often opine here. Our closest cousins are chimps and bonobos ... they have more chimp genes, we have more bonobo genes. That's my theory.

[3catwoman3]

14. "Shit doesn't have to make logical sense in their world..."

And usually doesn’t.

[3catwoman3]

16. "Shit doesn't have to make logical sense in their world..."

And usually doesn’t.

[meadowlander]

35. It's an outgrowth of their misogyny.

If men are men and do "men things", and women are women who do "women things" what do you do with someone who has woman parts who is a man and wants to do "man things"? And if you "let" that person do that, you're acknowledging that probably women could do "man things" all along.

They've bought in hard on biological determinism but it all goes to shit if you accept that there are more than two genders.

Also god forbid you ask them to even sllghtly inconvenience themselves to remember something like pronouns so that they can express basic respect and courtesy for other people. See also The War on Christmas.

[keithbvadu2]

38. Eve was the first transgender - by creation. For the Bible folks::: God was OK with it.

Eve was the first transgender - by creation.

For the Bible folks:::

Eve was the first transgender. Originally 100% male.

God was OK with it.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

42. Hey, I like that angle, politically-speaking, could be effective

I personally wouldn't make it in an argument though, on account of I believe the truth is exactly the other way around, and I always maintain intellectual integrity over scoring political points.

Females are the pure expression of the species. That's why they're XX. 'Males', i.e XY, as a whole in nature are an offshoot, created by the process of evolution, because genetic diversity is clearly advantageous. Mitosis vs. Meiosis, if you will.

That's why all fetuses are physically indistinguishable from 'female' until they're 2-3 months into gestation, when the 'male' characteristics begin to express as clitoris becomes penis, and ovaries become testes during development ... and then later descend into scrotum ... which was earlier in development ... some other lady part ... I think maybe vulva?

The idea that males are in ANY WAY primary to females is a total joke in my eyes, and I won't personally promulgate ideas that are contrary, like that Adam came before Eve. No he did not. Period.

But still, not a bad argument for others to make

[NullTuples]

54. Rarely discusses theories these days as racists & eugenicists will misrepresent the findings

We know that humanity came from dozens of proto-human species. It's very likely that some were hierarchical, patriarchal, competitive and violent like modern day chimps. Others were likely solitary like modern day orangutans. And yet others were likely more cooperative and matriarchal like bonobos. These are of course gross generalizations. And now, millions of years later, all of those genes swirl around in modern humans.

Like many genes, many travel through time and generations in groups, especially in populations that are isolated by geography or culture. Sometimes they get split up and when they find each other again, tend to reinforce each other. Simply put, there is no moral judgement to be had in the various combinations of genes themselves, but racists and eugenicists will ignore what they want to and draw inaccurate inferences. So the ideas are rarely discussed, as if we're sitting on a powder keg and that's the match. Because that's exactly the case.

But all of that is also as highly inconvenient to conservative Christians as evolution itself has been since 1859. As are the findings that being gay or lesbian or transgender clearly have a genetic (and epigenetic) basis, and represent little more than sex-dimorphic human development that has some elements swapped compared expectations based on the majority of humans. Or mixed / non-differentiated, in the case of bisexuals and nonbinary people. And so on. But conservatives very much have to teach and preach that the majority is all there is, as it is the source of their social, political and economic power.

As a model, consider religious patriarchy. The assumption that is taught and socially enforced is that humanity exists only as a pure sex binary (gender & sexuality being the same as sex in their worldview) in all respects. It's so much simpler to enforce with only two types of humans - male and female - that one is superior (that would be males because their God is male). People who exist and show that those assumptions are false are a threat to that power structure. And it's not just leaders who feel threatened; it's anyone whose rung on the ladder is based on who they are better than. Man vs woman. White vs black. Rich vs poor. And so on...and this brings the whole thing back around to some people maybe being genetically predisposed to being more violent and competitive - and/or having that enhanced and purified into a binary by their local culture - than cooperative, neutral, peaceful or some random mix.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

58. Brilliant!

And to be clear, when I say it seems like 'they' think differently and that I suspect it's genetic, I am NOT saying 'we're better, we need to get rid of them' or anything of that sort. Our genes survived this long, their genes survived this long ... for a reason.

We've both stood the test of time, both have their advantages (at a 30K foot level, it's caring about the 'community' vs caring about 'the self', which is totally logical that both would exist in nature, each with their own survival advantage). Yet, we've been fighting each other for a long time. It's not all just 'people telling other people' and 'societal values' and 'patriarchy' and 'religious influence' and such ... I just don't quite buy it, esp. because this particular divide exists worldwide, basically. I think we're mostly alike, of course, but there's just this one, fundamental difference.

For my part, I am pretty positive I was born 'liberal' and bonobo-like. It makes too much sense for me to deny it.

I know it's a sensitive subject, and where 'it can lead' as you say with eugenics and racism and such, totally agree. But at the same time, as long as the knowledge is not abused, I think we do ourselves a disservice by not admitting that ... there is a certain amount of sub-speciation going on with humanity. None are better or worse than the other, nobody deserves to be wiped out, and we all survived this long because 'how we all are' in one way or another ... helps humanity collectively survive.

In fact I think the most important thing is that we accept these differences, and leverage them and work together, cause I think that's how it's 'meant to be'. We see where they're blind, and vice-versa

[NullTuples]

59. There may not be much "our" genes and "their" genes any more, only tiny concentration variations?

But like faces, we may be exquisitely tuned to them. That's pure supposition on my part.

Plus, layered atop whatever our DNA holds, there's the influence of our local cultures - family, school, communities - that shape how we express those genetic or epigenetic predispositions. But it's likely that some geographic areas, through familial bloodlines, have slightly higher concentrations of certain gene combinations, while others have lower. And again it's likely that we're talking tiny percentages, too! Most people are a thorough blend of a thorough blend of a thorough blend - it's that occasionally they come together through pairings and begin new concentrations. What is most interesting to me is the question of whether as adults those minute differences in concentrations can affect things like chosen careers, or political or religious affiliations.

[dembotoz]

6. they need a continuous list of moral outrages to gin up the base

the base falls for it every damn time......

give them a reason to clutch those pearls

[Ocelot II]

7. It's all a performance. They need something to be outraged about,

and since they'd almost run out of powerless minority groups to make the MAGAts hate and fear ("What about the children???" ), they discovered trans people, which there aren't a lot of, but the haters can make them seem weird and abnormal and therefore dangerous. This carries over to drag performers, who aren't even necessarily either trans or gay; they are just performers who dress up as something they aren't, like clowns or other entertainers. But what drag does is cross the line of "correct" gender performance. If you are a bio woman you are expected to dress in a certain way: makeup, dresses, high heels, etc., things that are supposed to make you look sexy to men. Women who don't dress in this conventional way are considered odd, or maybe even (gasp!) lesbians, whether or not they actually are. The reality is that any public display of gender is always performative. Men perform their gender, too - traditional men's clothing is intended to make men look larger and more powerful. Dressing in military camo and carrying a gun around is another performative gender display - man-drag, if you will.

We all perform our genders in these ways, but right-wing men in particular hate it when people present a gender they weren't born with, because the idea that gender might be fluid and not written in stone makes them very nervous. Anti-drag/trans attitudes are to a considerable extent an expression of misogyny, because for some men nothing is more horrifying than the possibility that their precious maleness is more flexible than they want it to be.

[Walleye]

8. Yes exactly, to that last sentence

[Hugh_Lebowski]

20. Yeah, I read that article too, and I think there's a lot of truth to it

But consider what I wrote above, and then consider the fact that these drag show/book reading/school book bans they're proposing are all (at least to this point) centered around keeping young people away from exposure to LGTBQ+ life in general. They're not trying to ban them period, just to make it all 'adults only'.

Hence PERHAPS the most basic element is that they really don't want to cede to the notion that people are 'born this way', therefore they continually pick these kinds of fights specifically when it comes to kids. It's about keeping alive the idea that LGBTQ+ traits can be 'transferred' by bad actors. They also love them a giant conspiracy theory involving shadowy 'liberal' forces. We've seen that playing out forever as well.

I mean it's certainly also true that a lot of it is a result of demagoguery and general political calculation/warfare, but the unifying force behind it ... is religion-based. And I think there's a large contingent of people (probably around 30%) that have a genetic makeup that's conducive to being influenced like this. Common traits: hierarchical thinking in terms of society, tendency toward war/conflict, lack of empathy, fear of change, distrust of 'the other', general selfishness, and particularly strong fear of death (hence their clinging to the magic talisman of a tome that promotes the idea that they could live forever in Paradise with Their God').

Thus, if one wanted to argue that the fear/hate came first/is more endemic, and then religious dogma grew from that endemic trait ... I'd entertain that argument as well.

[yourmovemonkey]

48. Thank you so much for this

I admit that, even as a gay man, I have always had trouble understanding gender issues. You just made it so clear and concise. You've really helped me understand the way this pervades our culture.

"Man drag" I'm gonna use that a lot now.

[Botany]

9. Just like there use of the word "woke" or CRT or the danger of pronouns and ....

It is all made up shit by right wing think tanks, colleges, and media outlets who get their
talking point from the super rich and powerful who need to spread toxic lies to keep power.

BTW if you don't like drag shows don't go to 'em.

[Peacetrain]

12. Woke!! Exactly.. the only people I ever hear use the word "woke" are Trumpers

Out of curiosity, I finally went and googled the word and it has been used in the AA community .. being aware of the injustice around us.. Its mind boggling.. if you ask the average Trumper (because I truly believe that not all republicans are willfully ignorant) but Trumpers are.. what the word woke means.. I bet they would be as stumped as I was to it actual meaning.. Its incredible how the politicians can get them so ginned up over something they have no real concept of..

[Botany]

18. When the right wing uses the word "woke" they are telling the world that they know nothing.

Now, when the AA community used back in the day it meant are you aware of aka "woke to what
is going on?"

[Peacetrain]

22. Botany... "Black Lives Matter" another one that gets some going in circles..

True story... I am on FB.. and there are some that just went bonkers over the saying Black Lives Matter.. I posted something.. cannot remember exactly what it was right now.. but I titled it Black Lives Matter Too!.. and everyone of those people who were shouting Blue Lives Matter.. All Lives Matter.. every single one of them posted to me YES!! Black Lives Matter Too!!.. Where are we talking past each other.. Why did Black Lives Matter give them major heartburn.. But Black Lives Matter Too they could get behind in a heart beat.. It has been a never ending mystery to me.. and the Trumpian politicians have used it to divide the nation..

[calimary]

37. Heck, all I can think of is bad grammar.

[LakeArenal]

10. It's a bit like I felt about Franken and the USO show.

Decades of sexists jokes by Bob Hope.

Women as sex objects ala Jayne Mansfield and Jill St John ….

Then suddenly Al Franken the sweetest nice man becomes the poster child for harassing women.

[zuul]

11. It's okay if straight people dress in drag.

That’s the Republican mindset. This is all just another way to attack the gay and trans community. Conservatives are hateful bigots and bullies, always looking for ways to go after the ‘others.’

[WhiskeyGrinder]

13. It's not about drag. It's about hurting already marginalized people. It's not hypocrisy to them --

or if they're aware of it, they don't care. They won't have their minds "changed" by pointing out beloved drag skits from their youth, because what they want is to hurt LGBTQ people, that's it.

[Irish_Dem]

15. In the winter I wear men's wool thermal socks. Will I go to jail?

They are from Costco and so soft and warm. They are big but I wear another pair of socks with them.
For the first time my feet are warm in the winter.

Don't tell DeSantis. The Florida state troopers will cross state lines to come get me.
Into the slammer I go. Totally worth it. Not giving up my socks.

I confess I wear a man's baseball cap when I take walks.
I guess I am a degenerate.

[bringthePaine]

27. depends what color, team, etc

[Irish_Dem]

29. There is only one team that matters in the entire world.

My alma mater. Go Bucks.

[CottonBear]

30. I wear men's Wrangler quick dry pants w/ 6 pockets for work!

The bonus is that they fit women just right and it doesn’t look like I’m wearing men’s pants.

They only cost about $20 at Walmart! My female work friends have bought them too!
We work outside doing gardening. Did I mention the pockets that you can actually put things in like keys, cell phones, wallets and tools. Plus, your lip balm & hair ties don’t fall out of the slash pockets because they’re deep enough!

[Irish_Dem]

39. For sure you will go to jail for this.

The pants sound wonderful. I am shaped like an hourglass so men's pants don't fit me.

I wonder if we go to jail if we can bring along our socks and pants?

[CottonBear]

56. I sure hope so! We'll need pockets & good socks!

😄

[Mariana]

53. I wear those too.

I also wear men's sneakers, hiking shoes, and ice skates because most women's shoes don't fit me.

[Irish_Dem]

55. My daughter has tiny but wide feet, so wears boys shoes a lot.

Then has to scrounge around looking for women's dress shoes for when she is going formal.

[world wide wally]

17. Trans people are such a tiny minority with little to no voice, they have been

determined to be a safe target. There is also reluctance for "straight" men to defend them for fear of being called names.

[BOSSHOG]

19. Catholics go to church every Sunday

And are orchestrated for an hour with a man wearing a dress.

[Bo Zarts]

21. Maude Frickert by the late, great Jonathan Winters

[Peacetrain]

23. Oh Lord I completely forgot about Johnathan Winters!! good catch

[True Blue American]

26. Jonathan was a Dayton boy.

His family owned Winters bank.

[ChazInAz]

32. One of my favorites.

Although, IMNSHO, Boris Karloff's Mother Muffin on The Girl From Uncle was rather startling.

[bringthePaine]

24. never better than M Python's Mrs. Premise and Mrs. Conclusion

[True Blue American]

25. Flip Wilson was funny

So was Milton Berle, Red Skelton., Edgar Bergen and others.
Everyone knew they were playing a skit.

Burlesque was before my time.

[LeftInTX]

49. Burlesque was not accepted by the religious right

It's one degree short of strip-tease and many shows included strip-tease

[BlackSkimmer]

28. I'm not sure how old you were, but as someone born at the end of the baby boom, that's really

not the case. I guess I can see the point you're making, but it's just not so.

Sure, I had heard of those people, but we didn't even HAVE a television until mid-60s. I remember Geraldine vaguely, but Berle was already before my time.

As a gay woman who came of age in the 70s, I can assure you that other than dressing as a woman, those two men had zippo in common with drag shows.

[NullTuples]

43. The 1970's had Monty Python, Flip Wilson...

along with Bon Scott, Robert Plant, Kieth Moon, the entire band Poison...and so on (If you notice, I'm not listing anyone who was actually LGBTQ (that I know of) or anyone in Andy Worhol's orbit, even the "straight" ones. Nor rocky Horror or Female Trouble / Divine or even La Cage aux Folles - these were all ostensibly connected to gay culture.).

But then the 80's & early 90's happened and pop-culture "drag" really took off...again.

Are any of these actually drag, as in the art form? No; drag kings and queens were an expression of queer culture.

But were they were accepted and even celebrated by straights, even conservatives? Yes.

Why? Because the shock value / comedy aspect *reinforced* patriarchy and the assumption of a pure sex/gender binary.

That's why people bring it up, to throw a spotlight on the hypocrisy.

[BlackSkimmer]

51. Rocky Horror was such a blast. When was that? Late 70s?

I remember numerous midnight showings... ah memories.

But I don't remember that it was really "accepted" by mainstream culture at that time, but certainly all my wild and crazy straight friends loved it. Actually, probably before I came out...

Don't forget Bowie! Mott the Hoople, lol.

He really challenged some small minds, and so did Elton.

[NullTuples]

52. A review of the band from that era, to give readers some perspective of the times:

https://www.robertchristgau.com/xg/bk-aow/mott.php

Christgau is straight (as far as I know?), and wrote about rock from what I'd call an anti-establishment viewpoint; in my opinions that includes his views on LGBTQ people, for better or worse.

[BlackSkimmer]

57. Wow, interesting read. Lots of names from the past there.

I have to say my favorite part was seeing the word "coherent" used as a verb in the "band cohered" in whatever year cited.

I have to admit, I really thought I was one of the very few who ever heard of Mott the Hoople. I had the album! Maybe the only one? Seems so long ago now. And, of course it was.

Thanks for posting that.

[LeftInTX]

50. I agree. They were mostly comic relief like Madea

Drag is more sexual (sexy) in nature. They feature men who are perfecting the art of portraying women.

Getting hit over the head with Madea's purse or Madea runnIng all over town in a bathrobe ain't the same type entertainment as a Ru Paul show. Drag shows attract LGBT folks.

[republianmushroom]

31. Your correct

Durning the 50's and 60's etc most in the public eye dressed in drag at some point.

[nolabear]

34. Some Like it Hot, for Chrissake!

How many of them howled at that movie—and it deserves every accolade. Men LOVE to do drag. It’s just that they like part of the joke to be that they’re straight and do it badly.

But, as Joe E. Lewis said, “Nobody’s perfect.”

[keithbvadu2]

36. Is the transgender/drag queen/LGBTQ issue a distraction from republican/conservative/Christian value

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1017810805

Right Winger Says "Transgenderism Must Be Eradicated" During Disturbing Speech! - Luke Beasley

Yet he does not insist that child molesting be eradicated? Is that because republicans are involved?

Is the transgender/drag queen/LGBTQ issue a distraction from republican/conservative/Christian values/morals?
----------

Republican Sexual Predators, Abusers, and Enablers

https://www.dailykos.com/blogs/CajsaLilliehook
-----------------

Former Youth Ministry Volunteer Gets Life In Prison For Child Rapes

https://www.joemygod.com/?s=youth

[cksmithy]

40. I believe it is because

Milton, Flip and all the others, were considered as a joke, making fun of women. The only Drag show I've seen is from the move "The Bird Cage," where it appears to be obvious, it is trans, gay people pretending to be women and seen as women. The repubs can't handle it because it is not misogynistic, and are making a big deal out of it. I am terrified that their base is actually believing all the hatred they are spewing.

[LostOne4Ever]

41. It is an excuse to attack Trans people and LGBT+ people

[Duppers]

44. Just heard from a Democratic voting friend

In TENN that she's not comfortable with men in drag be they gay or straight!!

Needless to say, I'm extremely disappointed in her....so much so, I don't think I'll be contacting her much any more.

[alfredo]

45. Monty Python and Bugs Bunny

Mary Martin as Peter Pan

[IronLionZion]

46. They always love some scary bogeyman to manipulate their idiot voters

"Foreigners are stealing your jobs" doesn't work as well now that we have a labor shortage with plenty of jobs.

"Terrorists are coming to kill your family" doesn't work as well when any asshole with a gun can shoot up a school or grocery store anywhere at any time.

[BlueLucy]

47. It's about ginning up hatred for trans kids.

It's about making trans folks feel unwelcomed sending them back into hiding.

[lindysalsagal]

60. There is no logic. They hate what they can't control.

It's not supposed to make sense. It supports the white Christian male supremacy. Period.