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Mon Jun 27, 2022, 02:22 PM

It Is Time for Non-Fundamentalist Christian Denominations to Speak Out.

There has long been a tendency for more liberal Christian denominations to avoid criticism of other denominations' positions about things. Many Christian denominations, for example, have no problem with women exercising reproductive choice, including abortion. Many denominations also do not have a problem with LGBTQ+ relationships.

However, when other Christian denominations worked to make such things illegal, there was a hesitancy to speak out against those efforts. So, no "Christian" voices were heard opposing such regressive and unfair rules.

The time for that has ended. It is time for open disagreement with fundamentalist denominations and denominations so locked into past dogma. When such groups attempt to restrict the rights of entire classes of people, Christian denominations who do not support such restrictions need to speak out and to speak out loudly.

Some do, but most do not. All need to speak out, and demonstrate that such restrictive nonsense is not a "Christian" thing, but something only some Christians believe.

It is past time.

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Arrow 23 replies Author Time Post
Reply It Is Time for Non-Fundamentalist Christian Denominations to Speak Out. (Original post)
MineralMan Jun 2022 OP
Voltaire2 Jun 2022 #1
MineralMan Jun 2022 #3
Voltaire2 Jun 2022 #4
MineralMan Jun 2022 #11
Voltaire2 Jun 2022 #17
MineralMan Jun 2022 #18
Voltaire2 Jun 2022 #19
MineralMan Jun 2022 #21
Voltaire2 Jun 2022 #22
keep_left Jun 2022 #14
Voltaire2 Jun 2022 #20
Ocelot II Jun 2022 #2
MineralMan Jun 2022 #8
Hortensis Jun 2022 #12
leftyladyfrommo Jun 2022 #23
wyn borkins Jun 2022 #5
phylny Jun 2022 #6
milestogo Jun 2022 #7
TheRealNorth Jun 2022 #9
MineralMan Jun 2022 #10
keep_left Jun 2022 #15
Girard442 Jun 2022 #13
msfiddlestix Jun 2022 #16

Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Mon Jun 27, 2022, 02:26 PM

1. Lol. Like for example the Catholic Church?

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #1)

Mon Jun 27, 2022, 02:29 PM

3. No, not like the Catholic Church.

It is one of the most repressive and misogynistic denominations, and is massively fundamentalist in nature.

Indeed, it is the most fundamentalist of fundamentalist churches. Dogma is all the RCC has. There is no logic there.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #3)

Mon Jun 27, 2022, 02:32 PM

4. Ok you just shifted the meaning of fundamentalist

to support your argument. If only we had a way to describe that sort of logical fallacy. Maybe we could call it ‘equivocation’?


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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #4)

Mon Jun 27, 2022, 02:42 PM

11. No, I did not.

I mentioned both fundamentalist denominations and denominations locked into dogma that promotes inequality. They are different things. The RCC fits the second category, and is a basely misogynistic denomination. You apparently did not read my statement carefully enough.

Again, please find another hobby. Thanks.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #11)

Mon Jun 27, 2022, 03:07 PM

17. Yes you did too.

“It is one of the most repressive and misogynistic denominations, and is massively fundamentalist in nature.

Indeed, it is the most fundamentalist of fundamentalist churches. ”

You, upthread, on why the RCC is a fundamentalist sect.

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #17)

Mon Jun 27, 2022, 03:16 PM

18. It is the original fundamentalist denomination.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #18)

Mon Jun 27, 2022, 03:17 PM

19. Oh so now you are back to your equivocation

fallacy. Well done. Should we go another round?

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #19)

Mon Jun 27, 2022, 03:18 PM

21. Nope. I'm done with this little subterfuge of yours for now.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #21)

Mon Jun 27, 2022, 03:20 PM

22. How is pointing out a logical fallacy 'subterfuge'?

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #1)

Mon Jun 27, 2022, 02:44 PM

14. Actually, at most Catholic parishes, even conservative ones, you'd be hard-pressed...

...to find the stereotypical Irish family with 12 children anymore. The only place you'll find that kind of fecundity is in schismatic radtrad churches like the SSPXers and the EWTN "stars" who performatively LARP for the camera with their gigantic families. And those "stars" are almost always being subsidized by Catholic fundamentalist billionaires like Tom Monaghan.

The Church hierarchy is another matter, of course, but their problem is that they aren't the "princes of the Church" anymore: the most educated, thoughtful, etc. who deign to tell the rabble laity how to live. Many of the rabble are now far more accomplished and educated than the hierarchy, and the hierarchy knows it. That's why you see all the ridiculous "lifestyle LARPing" on EWTN, (Ir)-Relevant Radio, etc. They think that if they do enough performative LARPing, they can bring back the '50s--the 1350s.

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Response to keep_left (Reply #14)

Mon Jun 27, 2022, 03:18 PM

20. Yes the people are not the institution.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Mon Jun 27, 2022, 02:27 PM

2. Some have. Here is the statement of the Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church:

Today the Supreme Court released its decision in the case of Dobbs vs. Jackson Women’s Health Organization. The court has overturned the constitutional right to abortion that was recognized in the seminal 1973 case Roe v. Wade.

While I, like many, anticipated this decision, I am deeply grieved by it. I have been ordained more than 40 years, and I have served as a pastor in poor communities; I have witnessed firsthand the negative impact this decision will have.

We as a church have tried carefully to be responsive both to the moral value of women having the right to determine their healthcare choices as well as the moral value of all life. Today’s decision institutionalizes inequality because women with access to resources will be able to exercise their moral judgment in ways that women without the same resources will not.

This is a pivotal day for our nation, and I acknowledge the pain, fear, and hurt that so many feel right now. As a church, we stand with those who will feel the effects of this decision—and in the weeks, months, and years to come.

The Episcopal Church maintains that access to equitable health care, including reproductive health care and reproductive procedures, is “an integral part of a woman’s struggle to assert her dignity and worth as a human being” (2018-D032). The church holds that “reproductive health procedures should be treated as all other medical procedures, and not singled out or omitted by or because of gender” (2018-D032). The Episcopal Church sustains its “unequivocal opposition to any legislation on the part of the national or state governments which would abridge or deny the right of individuals to reach informed decisions [about the termination of pregnancy] and to act upon them” (2018-D032). As stated in the 1994 Act of Convention, the church also opposes any “executive or judicial action to abridge the right of a woman to reach an informed decision…or that would limit the access of a woman to safe means of acting on her decision” (1994-A054).

The court’s decision eliminates federal protections for abortion and leaves the regulation of abortion to the states. The impact will be particularly acute for those who are impoverished or lack consistent access to health care services. As Episcopalians, we pray for those who may be harmed by this decision, especially for women and other people who need these reproductive services. We pray for the poor and vulnerable who may not have other options for access. We urge you to make your voice heard in the way you feel called but always to do so peacefully and with respect and love of neighbor.
https://www.episcopalchurch.org/publicaffairs/statement-on-supreme-court-dobbs-decision-by-presiding-bishop-michael-curry/

The Lutheran church (ELCA) has issued a similar statement. https://www.elca.org/News-and-Events/8158

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Response to Ocelot II (Reply #2)

Mon Jun 27, 2022, 02:39 PM

8. Yes. Some have, but too few, too timidly, and too late.

Did they file amicus briefs at the SCOTUS? Did they speak out against such restrictions from the pulpit on Sunday for their congregations to hear? Not so much.

As you know, I am an atheist, with no religious beliefs at all.

The spirit of ecumenism is strong among Christian denominations, particularly the more liberal ones. There has always been a hesitance to criticize other denominations when questions of personal freedoms and rights are concerned. It is one thing to support such things within your own denomination. It is quite another to criticize denominations which espouse racist, misogynistic and other bigoted views. It is the second thing that should be more evident, it seems to me.

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Response to Ocelot II (Reply #2)

Mon Jun 27, 2022, 02:43 PM

12. I was reading an account that many congregations are divided by this,

hardly unpredictably. A lot of posters here don't realize it, but a fairly big minority of Republicans have always supported legal abortion and this hasn't changed much during this crazy era.

Pew: In 2007, around four-in-ten Republicans (39%) said abortion should be legal in all or most cases; today, 38% say this.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #12)

Mon Jun 27, 2022, 03:31 PM

23. I was at a Unitarian Church (normally very liberal)

9ne time probably 40 years ago.

The minute the topic of abortion came up that whole congregation just divided. There was no way to even begin a conversation.

And it's only gotten worse.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)


Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Mon Jun 27, 2022, 02:37 PM

6. Presbyterian Church USA did as well.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Mon Jun 27, 2022, 02:38 PM

7. Fundamentalist Christians hate liberal Christians.

They think all liberals are apostates. The notion that liberals can influence fundamentalists is totally misguided.

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Response to milestogo (Reply #7)

Mon Jun 27, 2022, 02:40 PM

9. Yup

The only reason they tolerate Catholics and Mormons is because Conservatives have captured the leadership of those churches too (at least the U.S. Catholic Church, which pretty much ignores the Vatican).

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Response to milestogo (Reply #7)

Mon Jun 27, 2022, 02:40 PM

10. I don't think they can influence fundamentalists.

It's just that the law appears to be caving to the fundamentalists. They can speak out loudly against that trend, don't you think. They do not, though - not in a way that is effective.

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Response to milestogo (Reply #7)

Mon Jun 27, 2022, 03:02 PM

15. Yep. They often use the literal term "apostate". I remember Mother Angelica of EWTN...

...whining about a group of Catholic laity, "Call To Action", which is a pretty wishy-washy liberal organization. This was in the late '90s or something. Her term of abuse for them was "Call To Apostasy".

EWTN has always been much closer to Bible Belt fundamentalism than to Catholicism. Which isn't so surprising, since EWTN is based in Alabama.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Mon Jun 27, 2022, 02:44 PM

13. Historians have a term for people who disagreed with many Nazi policies but...

...still lent their support.

They call them "Nazis."

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Mon Jun 27, 2022, 03:06 PM

16. Way, Way, Way, Way, WAAAAAY Past Time.

I mean. seriously.

Searching for a different word.. exceedingly past time, auspiciously past time, shamefully past time. effin past time.

gosh can't find the right word to aptly describe how egregiously apathetic "non-fudelementalists" have been in the face of the wanton destruction to our democracy perpetrated by Chrsto Fascists "evangelicals" in the past several decades.







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