HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » Sinking of the Moskva is ...

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:03 PM

Sinking of the Moskva is a game changer. My updated thoughts on the war.

This is all opinion.

All hopes for an early end to the Ukraine War are finished.

Ironically... the very success of the Ukrainians will prolong the destruction and killing.

The Russians will NEVER and let me repeat... NEVER walk away from this as the loser.

As the young people say, Ukraine has been "clowning" Russia.

Humiliation, embarrassment, ridicule.. all well deserved. But the Russians take it personally and will turn the Moskva into a rallying cry.

The Russians will send 500k... maybe 1m to the meat grinder but they won't stop.

And for those who think the Ukrainians are indestructible, they're not. Read an interview with a Ukrainian fighter jet pilot who said "We're losing planes daily, they don't talk about it publicly but we are". 1000 Ukrainian Marines surrendered in Mariupol this week including a UK citizen.

The atrocities will be amped up. The bombing of residential areas will be intensified under the pretense that since the gov't handed out weapons to civilians, "there are no non-combatants in the cities".

I think this thing will go WW2 style and they'll just turn cities to rubble. There won't BE a Ukraine when it's all over.

Anyone who asks "Then what do we do?"

I don't have an answer. If pushed I guess I'll say, keep supplying the Ukrainians and if the price in human capital gets too high... maybe there will be a Russian coup??

56 replies, 2381 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 56 replies Author Time Post
Reply Sinking of the Moskva is a game changer. My updated thoughts on the war. (Original post)
WarGamer Apr 2022 OP
Gidney N Cloyd Apr 2022 #1
WarGamer Apr 2022 #2
Gidney N Cloyd Apr 2022 #3
WarGamer Apr 2022 #4
Gidney N Cloyd Apr 2022 #7
EX500rider Apr 2022 #25
femmedem Apr 2022 #35
WarGamer Apr 2022 #36
Tetrachloride Apr 2022 #6
pecosbob Apr 2022 #31
uponit7771 Apr 2022 #5
brush Apr 2022 #8
WarGamer Apr 2022 #10
brush Apr 2022 #13
FakeNoose Apr 2022 #12
WarGamer Apr 2022 #15
keithbvadu2 Apr 2022 #9
TheBlackAdder Apr 2022 #50
orwell Apr 2022 #11
WarGamer Apr 2022 #14
orwell Apr 2022 #19
WarGamer Apr 2022 #21
Calculating Apr 2022 #43
gaskinite Apr 2022 #17
orwell Apr 2022 #20
Crunchy Frog Apr 2022 #45
orwell Apr 2022 #49
Chainfire Apr 2022 #16
WarGamer Apr 2022 #18
Chainfire Apr 2022 #22
WarGamer Apr 2022 #23
Amishman Apr 2022 #42
Kingofalldems Apr 2022 #24
WarGamer Apr 2022 #26
Kingofalldems Apr 2022 #27
WarGamer Apr 2022 #28
Kingofalldems Apr 2022 #30
WarGamer Apr 2022 #33
NickB79 Apr 2022 #29
WarGamer Apr 2022 #34
Kaleva Apr 2022 #46
pnwmom Apr 2022 #32
SmallFry Apr 2022 #37
Red Mountain Apr 2022 #38
Shanti Shanti Shanti Apr 2022 #39
BootinUp Apr 2022 #40
honest.abe Apr 2022 #41
Liberal In Texas Apr 2022 #44
LetMyPeopleVote Apr 2022 #47
jcgoldie Apr 2022 #48
roamer65 Apr 2022 #51
Chainfire Apr 2022 #52
roamer65 Apr 2022 #54
mahatmakanejeeves Apr 2022 #53
SoonerPride Apr 2022 #55
DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2022 #56

Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:05 PM

1. Are the Russians willing to admit the Ukrainians sunk it?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Gidney N Cloyd (Reply #1)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:06 PM

2. Doubtful...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WarGamer (Reply #2)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:09 PM

3. Seems like it would be hard to make a rallying cry out of "we had an accident."

To me, the fact that they're not blaming it on Ukraine military action is a way for them to leave themselves a way out without looking like they're slinking away with their tails between their legs.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Gidney N Cloyd (Reply #3)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:10 PM

4. in the Kremlin at this very moment they're probably working on how to propagandize it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WarGamer (Reply #4)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:12 PM

7. "Remember The Unfortunate Turn of Events!"

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Gidney N Cloyd (Reply #7)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:45 PM

25. 😂

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WarGamer (Reply #4)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:56 PM

35. Yes if this clip is any indication:

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to femmedem (Reply #35)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:57 PM

36. that's what I thought...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Gidney N Cloyd (Reply #1)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:11 PM

6. So, it sunk by chance of the weather? then why are they crying about Ukraine.

I agree with only that this is a game changer of morale.

If another couple of ships soon lose their combat ability, that would not be unexpected.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Gidney N Cloyd (Reply #1)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:53 PM

31. Russian TV pundits are calling it a casus belli

as if they hadn't already invaded. The government still denies the attack yet they would very much like to use this as an excuse to ramp up.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:10 PM

5. Putrid still wants this to look like a special operation small scale skirmish

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:13 PM

8. You say the Russians won't go home a loser. I say this will work...

out to be a negotiated peace as NATO will not desert supporting Ukraine. And a negotiated peace is nothing but a lost to the Russians who expected to take over the whole country in a week or less.

The Russians have already lost that goal and the whole world knows it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to brush (Reply #8)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:17 PM

10. If there are negotiations and Russia gains land... they'll declare victory.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WarGamer (Reply #10)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:21 PM

13. The world already knows they lost in their attempt to take the...

entire country in a week. And now they've suffer another high-profile lost...their flagship in the Black Sea.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to brush (Reply #8)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:20 PM

12. NATO will grow in less than 2 months

Switzerland, Finland and Sweden are joining NATO very shortly.

I believe Ukraine's application will be fast-tracked but they can't join while they're involved in a combat situation. I hope that rule will change, but for now it's not allowed.

This will be the game-changer - yessirree!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to FakeNoose (Reply #12)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:22 PM

15. this war has shown that Russia can't attack NATO.

Not going to happen.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:13 PM

9. Putin could go in with even heavier weaponry.

Putin could go in with even heavier weaponry.

More efficient mass killing/destruction.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to keithbvadu2 (Reply #9)

Fri Apr 15, 2022, 01:37 AM

50. Remember when all the Righties and War Hawks were chanting for the US to "Bomb Iran?"

.

They kept saying that it's time to turn the country into glass.

.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:18 PM

11. I would guess that once the "blitzkrieg" failed...

...scorched earth was always plan B. Nothing has changed. That is Putrid's modus operandi...

I hope they make the costs very high for this butcher. The longer this lasts, the deeper hole he digs for himself. What happens when his market for oil and natural gas to Europe dries up? This high cost of hydrocarbons is only accelerating the transition away from fossil fuels. The years of Russia being the world's gangster gas pump are only going to end sooner.

With the current brain drain, and death scape demographics, he is sealing his country's slide into obscurity. It really is an incomprehensibly stupid move on Putrid's part.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to orwell (Reply #11)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:21 PM

14. the whole thing was incredibly stupid on the part of Russia

I was 100% sure there would be no invasion because it'd be STUPID with little upside.

And then BOOM they did it... still shaking my head.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WarGamer (Reply #14)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:31 PM

19. I still don't understand what he thought he would gain...

...up to that point he was essentially getting everything he wanted at almost zero cost.

Now the whole world is paying for this stupidity. People are not only dying in Ukraine, but millions more are likely going to starve in some of the poorest parts of the world that have nothing to do with his geopolitical ambition.

But this is how mob bosses eventually fall. They get high on their own supply...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to orwell (Reply #19)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:34 PM

21. agreed

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WarGamer (Reply #14)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 09:02 PM

43. Agreed fully

I still have no idea how this is anything but ruin for both countries. Ukraine gets bombed to rubble, and Russia takes a spot lower than North Korea in the world stage in addition to economic rand military ruin.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to orwell (Reply #11)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:27 PM

17. Putin just purged his military leadership

 

The OP may be correct. Putin will continue even if he has to promote conscripts to General.

On the other hand it is problematic to have a lack of logistical leadership even if the ones who were purged were corrupt and incompetent.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to gaskinite (Reply #17)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:33 PM

20. It looks like he may have tried...

...to take Shoigu out.

Who is left at the end of the long table?

Too bad he doesn't believe in seppuku...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to orwell (Reply #20)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 09:21 PM

45. It's too bad that Shoigu didn't take him out first.

He's probably one of the few who could have done it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Crunchy Frog (Reply #45)

Fri Apr 15, 2022, 12:55 AM

49. There's the quick...

...and the dead.

I wonder what a life insurance policy costs if you are one of Putin's inner circle...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:23 PM

16. It sure has to be a morale builder.

But I don't believe that sinking one, even a very important, warship will have a dramatic effect on the war effort. The ship was described as the pride of the Russian Navy. I think that it is important to remember that this ship was a product of the Soviet Union. You would think that they had something a little more recent to brag about. Putin has to hang on to the glory of the failed Soviet Union, because he hasn't able to advance the Country. That is a hell of an indictment.

Even though the Russians claim that the sinking was cause by an accident, they have moved their Navy 80 miles off of the Ukrainian coast. Perhaps they will be surprised to discover that that is still within range of the Ukrainian Neptune missiles. I read the Russian claim that it sank in stormy seas, while being towed. The Russians would never admit that that big fucking hole in the side of the ship had anything to do with it. At least the fires will be out now...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chainfire (Reply #16)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:29 PM

18. as an aside...

I can think of MANY WW2 warships that were hit with a LOT more than 150kg warheads and stayed afloat.

The Bismarck was "target practice" for hours and didn't go down until the Germans scuttled her.

I guess the shipyard owner bought a new Italian villa plus a yacht.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WarGamer (Reply #18)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:40 PM

22. As a Navy vet, one thing that I learned was that it was not the size of a bomb

that killed the warship, it was the size of the resulting fires. In the Navy, every man is trained as a firefighter, the schooling and the practice never ends, and still fires get out of control and kill ships. We saw that recently with the The USS Bonhomme Richard.

It may have been that the missile hit a critical area, fuel storage or munitions storage. Even if Russian sailors are highly trained and very efficient firefighters, it is not a game you can always win. If the sailors were no better trained in damage control, than the Russian ground troops were trained in fighting, they would not have had a chance to save the ship.

Our trainers never got tire of telling us that more sailors die of fire than by drowning.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chainfire (Reply #22)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:43 PM

23. yeah, you're right of course...

And much respect for your service, my grandfather was on the USS Cleveland 1943-1945 for lots of big battles.



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WarGamer (Reply #18)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 08:36 PM

42. Not terribly applicable here, Slava class ships are nearly unarmored

Their defense is structured around their anti ship and anti air missiles. If something got close enough to hit them, the ship had already failed.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:45 PM

24. So are you saying Ukraine should surrender?

Just freaking wow.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Kingofalldems (Reply #24)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:46 PM

26. If I was asked to guess WHICH DU'er would post what you just posted...

I'd guess it was you on the first try.

You're one of a kind, KOAD.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WarGamer (Reply #26)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:47 PM

27. Non responsive.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Kingofalldems (Reply #27)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:48 PM

28. rofl...

It's a silly question. One that I answered later in the post.


From OP:
"I don't have an answer. If pushed I guess I'll say, keep supplying the Ukrainians and if the price in human capital gets too high... maybe there will be a Russian coup??"

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WarGamer (Reply #28)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:52 PM

30. Yeah except you posted Russia would NEVER (all caps yours)

walk away the loser. A post saying Russia won't lose in all caps, then a modifier. I get it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Kingofalldems (Reply #30)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:54 PM

33. They will fight until they "claim" a victory. Probably after wrecking half the country.

Who said anything about surrender? You were the first to suggest it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:52 PM

29. Send troops in what vehicles? With what morale?

They're using unseasoned conscripts, poorly armed and fed, driving decrepit vehicles with tires that are literally rotting away from lack of maintenance. Ukraine now has MORE tanks than when the war started.

Decades of corruption have turned the RU military into a shell of it's former self.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/14/europe/ukraine-war-russia-trucks-logistics-intl-hnk-ml/index.html

At the same time, NATO has been escalating it's equipment shipments, giving more, and more powerful, weapon systems as time progresses.

The only options Russia will have left to deal decisive blows are by using chemical or nuclear weapons (which I don't discount though, sadly). They don't even have a significant heavy bomber wing like we do with our B-52's, capable of carpet bombing cities with conventional warheads. And with the flow of drones and counter artillery coming in on the UKR side from NATO, their artillery batteries will be hampered as well.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to NickB79 (Reply #29)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:55 PM

34. We'll see...

I think they'll just use artillery and air strikes to turn the cities to rubble. Our own DoD people said think "years" not weeks.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WarGamer (Reply #34)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 11:11 PM

46. Air strikes may become suicidal as nations send in AAW systems to UKR

The US is sending kamikaze Switchblade drones which a swarm of them could take out RU artillery positions..

The UKR will get more and more of the advanced weapons from the West while RU will be limited to using it's stock of Soviet era legacy weapons.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 07:54 PM

32. And if Putin had easily taken Ukraine, then he'd have just gone on to his next target

in his drive to reestablish the Russian Empire.

Finland? Alaska? Who knows.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 08:16 PM

37. I think I see only one way for Putin to claim victory.

Three weeks or so left in this war. It appears Putin was already planning on increasing attacks. The sinking of this ship is simply going to make it worse.

After a couple of days of shelling like we have yet to see Putin is going to move the rest of his convoys(currently sitting around the border) into Ukraine and they along with his forces already in Ukraine will finish taking key cities. A deal will be struck. The deal will be on a much smaller scale than what has been discussed in previous negotiations. Putin keeps the land. Deal done. There are enormous Ukrainian benefits that would come with such a deal. It would be a massive loss for Putin in reality.

Putin can claim victory at home. Ukraine gets to say they drove out the monsters and apply to NATO for protection.

ďThe atrocities will be amped up. The bombing of residential areas will be intensified under the pretense that since the gov't handed out weapons to civilians, "there are no non-combatants in the cities".Ē

I fully agree with that. I just think itís going to occur in a short period of time. I believe we are about to watch the last months worth of warfare happen in days. Then full infiltration into specific areas. Urban combat. At that point Putinís new intentions for victory will be so clear that the world will continue to watch.

The end of this is not going to be outright victory for anyone, though most involved will claim victory.

I say these things for a couple of reasons.

I can think of no other way Putin can claim victory.

He canít hold Ukraine.

In the next month or two Putin is going to lose many of the power players who have been loyal to him, the oligarchs and those surrounding them, once trusted military leaders, and his people. He already sees it. The citizens he can handle, his inner circle, not so much.

I donít think many have figured out Putinís mindset with respect to casualties. He has given us all the clues but I donít really hear people talk about it. Itís discussed using distinction between military and civilian. I made a comment earlier today about people conflating the gay community and pedophilia. Itís not ok to kill someone for their sexual identity(I understand that canít stand as an absolute statement), many will shrug and move along if itís a pedophile. Putin hasnít only defined the Ukrainian government and military as Naziís, but also the Ukrainian people. He has defined citizens as part of the war. There is no distinction when looking at body count. Through that lens things look a lot different. Then there is what you reference about the government handing out weapons and conscription. Putin doesnít view any Ukrainian as a citizen in this war.

All that said, I feel I could back just about every single part of your opinion. I know Iím wrong, I just donít know to what degree Iím wrong. I just donít think Putin has leveling the country in the cards. Though it might look like it next week.

I really want to see the Ukrainians begin grieving and rebuilding. One of the most sad things is that I think my opinion might be laced with rose colored glasses.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 08:17 PM

38. I think you overestimate Putin's control

and Russian resolve.

They're going to have a hard time replacing equipment losses at some point. Yes, they have lots of reserve antiquated crap they MIGHT be able to get running and point west. It won't help them much. They're hollowing themselves out and everybody knows it.....especially the Russians.

If the Ukrainians want to defend their country (with our weapons) they can probably do it. Will they take back territory they lost? I hope so but would guess it will end up as a bargaining chip.

Only people who win 'win' are the arms manufacturers. Russians and Ukrainians all lose until something shakes loose.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 08:18 PM

39. I agree with your statements, this war will go on, Russia can never admit defeat, no matter the cost

The good news is Ukraine is facing a 1980s army and navy, they will get their piece of flesh too, they will fight on.

Sink em all!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 08:23 PM

40. Overly pessimistic.

I don't doubt that Ukraine has suffered horrible losses. But there is no way in hale, that the Russians will be more motivated than the Ukrainians, I'm sure you agree. Most military experts I have watched/read over the last month think the Ukrainians can sustain an insurgency far longer than Russia can stomach one.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 08:26 PM

41. You seem overly sure of what the Russians will do.

I really doubt anything in this war can be described as "NEVER and let me repeat... NEVER" as you put it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Thu Apr 14, 2022, 09:17 PM

44. There's going to be some sort of retaliation.

Putin won't let this be unanswered. It's going to be something awful.

The ruskies should expect that the weapons firing bombs into their country are fair targets. I'm surprised that the Ukrainians haven't hit canon emplacements just over the border in Russia.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Fri Apr 15, 2022, 12:00 AM

47. Malcom Nance seems to agree with you

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Fri Apr 15, 2022, 12:41 AM

48. yeah sure

Every time Ukraine succeeds in a war objective you tell us how bad it is for Ukraine because Russia will be REALLY serious now. The war would have been quick and easy if the Ukrainians had just rolled over. Bunch of nonsense.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Fri Apr 15, 2022, 01:39 AM

51. Fuck Putler and fuck Russia.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to roamer65 (Reply #51)

Fri Apr 15, 2022, 07:34 AM

52. While on that subject

One thing for certain is that the Moskva did, 5 weeks later, go fuck itself.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chainfire (Reply #52)

Fri Apr 15, 2022, 09:42 AM

54. Royally fucked.

I got a block of the Ukrainian GFY stamps and I am going to buy a frame and sit it on my desk.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Fri Apr 15, 2022, 08:00 AM

53. Got that link right here.

And for those who think the Ukrainians are indestructible, they're not. Read an interview with a Ukrainian fighter jet pilot who said "We're losing planes daily, they don't talk about it publicly but we are". 1000 Ukrainian Marines surrendered in Mariupol this week including a UK citizen.

Wed Apr 13, 2022: Ukrainian fighter pilots in old jets take on better-equipped Russians

Europe

Ukrainian fighter pilots in old jets take on better-equipped Russians

By Isabelle Khurshudyan
Today at 2:00 a.m. EDT

ODESSA, Ukraine ó The fighter pilot known as ďJuiceĒ usually just has a few minutes to scramble. When he is on-call, which is pretty much always these days, he cannot be more than a bathroom break away from his cockpit. When a cruise missile or a Russian fighter is spotted moving toward the area Juice is assigned to by the Ukrainian air force, he doesnít even have time to run through standard safety checks before taking off.

ďWeíre ready to be killed,Ē said Juice, who provided only his call sign for security reasons. ... ďBut we donít want this, of course,Ē the 29-year-old added. ďWe want to kill Russians and take down their bombers that are killing our cities and our families.Ē ... Juice is one of the pilots helping Ukraine pull off the biggest surprise of this war: Its military has kept the airspace over Ukraine contested despite Russiaís more advanced jets and superior numbers. But he and other pilots say thatís not enough. While Kyivís forces have perhaps even outperformed Moscowís on the ground, Russia has continued to inflict heavy losses on Ukraine from the sky.

{snip video}

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has appealed to the United States and other NATO allies to establish a no-fly zone over the country ó a step that leaders in the military alliance refused to take, citing fears of touching off a world war with Moscow. Now Zelensky is pushing for more advanced air-defense systems and jets. ... But Juice and others have said the weapons that countries have discussed transferring to Ukraine ó particularly Russian-made MiG-29 fighters and U.S.-made Stinger antiaircraft missiles ó wonít help Kyivís air force tip the scales in its favor. The gap between the weapons Ukraine wants and what Western countries are willing to supply has become a key tension nearly two months into the fighting.

{more snipping}

Analysts at the Oryx Blog, which tracks Russian military losses, documented 20 aircraft and 30 helicopters destroyed or damaged in Ukraine.

{again with the snipping}

Gift Article
https://wapo.st/37H7LaF

By Isabelle Khurshudyan
Isabelle Khurshudyan is a foreign correspondent based in Moscow. A University of South Carolina graduate, she has worked at The Washington Post since 2014, previously as a sports reporter covering the Washington Capitals, high school sports and local colleges. Twitter https://twitter.com/ikhurshudyan

Attack On Europe: Documenting Equipment Losses During The 2022 Russian Invasion Of Ukraine

Oryx Thursday, February 24, 2022 Bayraktar TB2 , DNR

{snip}

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Fri Apr 15, 2022, 09:44 AM

55. Russia doesn't have the manpower or materiel to control Ukraine

They are about at their limit already.

They cannot win and they cannot sustain this attack indefinitely.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Fri Apr 15, 2022, 10:36 AM

56. Muh Russia is ten feet tall

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread