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Should NATO enforce a no fly zone over Kyiv? (Original Post) ColinC Feb 2022 OP
Gonna trust Biden's Admin who sees the big picture better than me. Hoyt Feb 2022 #1
so u want US jets to shoot down Russian jets. really? nt msongs Feb 2022 #2
Wouldn't be even close to the first time NATO has shot down Russian jets ColinC Feb 2022 #4
unbelievable some of the 'armchair general' cray cray coming out of the woodwork for days Celerity Feb 2022 #17
It would be considered an act of war, so no. BootinUp Feb 2022 #3
Good lord, no. No direct confrontation. Wingus Dingus Feb 2022 #5
Disaster is unavoidable at this point. ColinC Feb 2022 #6
It's a limited war, confined to one country. Wingus Dingus Feb 2022 #8
It isn't though. ColinC Feb 2022 #11
There is a bright line, and that's an attack on a NATO country. Wingus Dingus Feb 2022 #14
That's a dangerous line to wait for imho ColinC Feb 2022 #16
We have troops in NATO countries right now just in case the madman attacks one Justice matters. Feb 2022 #18
At this rate I'm open to "attack" being very loosely defined. ColinC Feb 2022 #19
The madman will not do that. Justice matters. Feb 2022 #21
Unfortunately I don't think the madman has anything to lose anymore ColinC Feb 2022 #23
Let's doubt it. He's not winning in Ukraine. Justice matters. Feb 2022 #24
"No fly zones" are more or less acts of war. So, no. RockRaven Feb 2022 #7
I sure hope I'm wrong, but I don't think your last sentence is avoidable ColinC Feb 2022 #9
No, we should use a small yield tactical nuke or two to target Putin, his family and end this Shanti Shanti Shanti Feb 2022 #10
Kinda agree ColinC Feb 2022 #12
We may as well launch a full first strike against them DetroitLegalBeagle Feb 2022 #13
I could go for conventional cruise missiles if we get him out in the open Shanti Shanti Shanti Feb 2022 #15
Russian "silent" nuclear subs not far from our beaches too... Justice matters. Feb 2022 #20
That would still result in war DetroitLegalBeagle Feb 2022 #22

ColinC

(10,823 posts)
4. Wouldn't be even close to the first time NATO has shot down Russian jets
Sat Feb 26, 2022, 12:42 AM
Feb 2022

And waiting around for bullies with an inferiority complex to decide to stop invading sovereign countries has had a really bad track record as far as history is concerned.

Celerity

(46,432 posts)
17. unbelievable some of the 'armchair general' cray cray coming out of the woodwork for days
Sat Feb 26, 2022, 01:23 AM
Feb 2022


'cruise missile' Moscow and/or every Putin 'home' (or 'palace')

send in teams of assassins to kill Putin

limited (lol) nuclear strikes

send in NATO ground, air, sea troops to directly fight the Russians

seize all Russian property (not just oligarch owned, literally ALL) worldwide (or in the US, have seen both proposed)

round up and deport (back to Russia) all pregnant Russian women (wtf), regardless of dual citizen status or who is the father

use drones to attack the Russians because then we (NATO, US?) are not technically using soldiers (they forgot the operators I guess), so not actually 'fighting'

block ALL (including commercial) flights to AND from Russia, from and to ALL global countries (which would, of course, entail passenger jets being shot down, now THERE'S a winner!, smdh)

other assorted illegal and/or act of war claptrap, much of it sounding like a bad Tom Clancy novel








ColinC

(10,823 posts)
6. Disaster is unavoidable at this point.
Sat Feb 26, 2022, 12:46 AM
Feb 2022

Largest land invasion in Europe since world war two by a bully with an inferiority complex has a pretty clear lesson as far as history is concerned.

Wingus Dingus

(8,408 posts)
8. It's a limited war, confined to one country.
Sat Feb 26, 2022, 12:50 AM
Feb 2022

It's a disaster for Ukraine. Disaster on a much larger scale would be the US plus other NATO countries vs. Russia plus China jumping in to help. Why would we bring that about voluntarily?

ColinC

(10,823 posts)
11. It isn't though.
Sat Feb 26, 2022, 01:04 AM
Feb 2022

This is the second country Russia has invaded in the last decade. They have made clear they want to go further and re establish the USSR territories. The only thing that will happen if Russia takes Ukraine is put them in a more strategic and favorable position to attack NATO. Ignoring Russia in Ukraine is like ignoring Hitler in Poland. We really do have a good idea from history what ignoring an insane bully with an inferiority complex, will do.

Wingus Dingus

(8,408 posts)
14. There is a bright line, and that's an attack on a NATO country.
Sat Feb 26, 2022, 01:08 AM
Feb 2022

That's world war three. All parties know this. That's why NATO membership is carefully considered.

ColinC

(10,823 posts)
16. That's a dangerous line to wait for imho
Sat Feb 26, 2022, 01:20 AM
Feb 2022

Finland and Sweden could be next. They -and many other countries nearby are not in NATO. If they are attacked, do we still wait out of fear of nuclear war?

Justice matters.

(7,556 posts)
18. We have troops in NATO countries right now just in case the madman attacks one
Sat Feb 26, 2022, 01:30 AM
Feb 2022

or more.

ARTICLE 5 is a commitment.

P.S.: Nuclear subs not far from the beaches too...

ColinC

(10,823 posts)
19. At this rate I'm open to "attack" being very loosely defined.
Sat Feb 26, 2022, 01:33 AM
Feb 2022

A stray bullet or a piece of mortar shell landing over the border is good enough for a response in my opinion.

ColinC

(10,823 posts)
23. Unfortunately I don't think the madman has anything to lose anymore
Sat Feb 26, 2022, 01:45 AM
Feb 2022

I very strongly believe he is sick, with perhaps years if not months or days left on his life. He wants to re establish the USSR and all of the Russian Empire colonies before he passes. He will start with all non NATO countries -invading as many as possible, and establish his footing in a strategic position before going all out against NATO.

Hopefully he just dies tomorrow.

Justice matters.

(7,556 posts)
24. Let's doubt it. He's not winning in Ukraine.
Sat Feb 26, 2022, 01:50 AM
Feb 2022

Street guerrilla for years until he quits or gets ousted internally.

RockRaven

(16,397 posts)
7. "No fly zones" are more or less acts of war. So, no.
Sat Feb 26, 2022, 12:50 AM
Feb 2022

Forget any "police action" or "security" bullshit Americans got used to in the 90s Iraq or more recently the British/French thing in Lybia. That was a euphemism. Always was. Always will be.

Enforcing a "no fly zone" means shooting down planes. Because they won't stop coming into the air space unless you do. You're asking whether the US Air Force should start shooting down Russian planes over Ukraine. That is, and will be reacted to, as an act of war. So you are asking should the US and Russia should engage in war. No. They should not.

That way lies nuclear winter, famine, billions of deaths, and even human extinction.

 

Shanti Shanti Shanti

(12,047 posts)
10. No, we should use a small yield tactical nuke or two to target Putin, his family and end this
Sat Feb 26, 2022, 01:01 AM
Feb 2022

Cut off the head of the snake, as they would say

DetroitLegalBeagle

(2,192 posts)
13. We may as well launch a full first strike against them
Sat Feb 26, 2022, 01:08 AM
Feb 2022

Because the end results will be the same. Full nuclear exchange.

 

Shanti Shanti Shanti

(12,047 posts)
15. I could go for conventional cruise missiles if we get him out in the open
Sat Feb 26, 2022, 01:20 AM
Feb 2022

I don't want to hurt Russian citizens, just take him out, they and the world would thank us

Justice matters.

(7,556 posts)
20. Russian "silent" nuclear subs not far from our beaches too...
Sat Feb 26, 2022, 01:36 AM
Feb 2022

Forget ANY "Fisrt Strike" because that's the last one on ALL sides: Think MAD for real instead.

DetroitLegalBeagle

(2,192 posts)
22. That would still result in war
Sat Feb 26, 2022, 01:42 AM
Feb 2022

You don't get to assassinate the leader of a nuclear power and just get away with it. It doesn't matter how much of dick he is, the Russian military and Russian government is not just going to let that happen. There is no way they will let the precedent stand that the West can kill Russian leadership with no consequence whenever it feels like it. If Putin get taken out it needs to be from within, not from the outside. Also, how are the Russians going to know its a conventional warhead? Nuclear tipped cruise missiles have been in existence since the 1960's. I'm definitely not a radar expert, but I can't see a way that radar could determine what type of warhead the missile carried considering the missile itself looks exactly the same regardless of its payload. And I wouldn't expect the Russians to just wait and see, particularly if it were heading towards Putin and other Russian leadership. Decapitation strikes can be seen as immediately preceding a first strike.

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