Is not it clear to all by now that the only way to stop Trump and those who support him is to
prosecute them to the full extent of the law (before they get a chance to change even those laws) and put them in jail at the maximum sentences for which they are found guilty. Citizens who love America, with all her flaws, must join together irrespective of party and normal political positions to fight these bastards who would destroy out own government in favor of supporting autocratic, racist, and fascist leadership. Our government agencies must be cleansed of those who were placed in critical positions of power within them under the Trump presidency and those who work against the very government for which they work and receive benefits.
We must pressure the real and honest media to expose them on every turn and abandon their sickening "bothism" attempts at balance. Their is no balance between good and evil. NONE!! If we don't stop them now, it will be too late in 2023.
And agreed. I doubt Nixon would have fallen from public grace were it not for the specter of being prosecuted for Watergate.
It wasnt a legal indictment from the DOJ.
Ford then pardoned him for any future prosecutions.
That is my recollection of history.
Here we only have the DOJ to force a punishment.
For starters, Watergate had a special grand jury empaneled. A special grand jury only examines one issue. That grand jury indicted several people close to Nixon and named Nixon as an unindicted co-conspirator. People on that grand jury did not want Nixon to resign because they felt they had enough evidence to convict him.
I see DOJ doing nothing at all similar to what was done at Watergate, no special prosecutor, no special grand jury, so far everything uncovered has been done by the select committee, reporters, and FOIA requests.
Finally, it was Republicans who went to Nixon to convince him to resign.
Nixon got off easy by resigning because DOJ back then did its job.
between Nixon and trump (other than trump being so much worse than Nixon ever thought about) is that the Republicans in Nixon's time were not all power-mad fascists and Nixon still had some small kernel of respect for the rule of law. He left in disgrace and was a pariah to most of the party. Maybe if that had happened to trump we would not be in the precarious position we are today.
I still hope to see trump pay the price for what he's done. He has skated through life as a cheat, a liar, and a crook. He deserves the punishment that anyone else would get. He's trying to take down the entire country to bring about some narcissistic idea that he should be emperor of everything.
I keep waiting. I keep hoping to wake up to a bombshell as to the prosecution of Trump. But I see nothing happening.
If MY recollection of Watergate is at all correct, during that situation, pretty much SOMETHING was happening every day. I remember being so mad because there were schedule interruptions continuously on the television and it was causing kids like me to miss our favorite shows.
I do not see the strength and resolve today that I remember from the Watergate era. Its a shame in my opinion because Trumps crimes are much more egregious and they are certainly more public which should mean prosecutable.
He asked how he looked in the Senate. Goldwater responded not good. He asked Goldwater how many votes he had. Goldwater responded "about twenty, and I'm not one of them."
If ultra conservative Goldwater left Nixon, he knew he was doomed.
No prosecution after all this and all that that what would be cray.
those who control some of the red state, red county, and red town governments. They also stand a good chance of taking control of congress next fall, which would give them two branches of the federal government.
Obviously, tRump and some other high-ranking Republicans should be prosecuted and imo should spend the rest of their lives in prison. I'd be up for execution.
However, the question is how to stop the 70 MILLION who support authoritarian revolution, millions fanatically.
They don't need tRump free to do it. They don't need him leading to do it. More competent leaders can use his imprisonment to enrage and incite millions of people eager to be enraged and incited while they finish carrying out their takeover.
They've been working on it for 40 years when their own successes lead to tRump being foisted on them. They've nevertheless been able to make enormous advances toward their goals since our giant national catastrophe of 2016. With and without tRump in the spotlight.
and found guilty.
While you are likely right that he will be treated as an unjust victim, it is 100% he will win the nomintation, and very likely the election, and it will be game over at that point.
Much less something that has the fate of our entire nation and its people, those living today and those to be born, at stake. Most immediately, my grandchildren will have to live with whatever happens.
The many people who agree with you could turn out to be accidentally right about all three absolute statements, sweeping the "game board" by sheer force of cumulative certainty. But each brings that thing about stopped clocks being "right" twice a day to my mind. Especially that stopped clocks are not telling time at any point.
Our cumulative ignorance far outstrips what we actually know, and incredibly so in this case. It's not like the people in the "war rooms" are rushing to tell everyone what they know and their strategies. Not only are those not our only possible actions, but each would have various possible results, depending... All have been intensively studied in governments at risk of falling or fallen before this. And are being studied in our specific context.
Regarding "game over," reportedly one common possibility is a period of "anocracy" over more cycles while the groups fighting to take over, including LW anti-establishment groups, keep kicking at the structures of our democracy. This goes on in these miserable nations until one group finally succeeds in establishing control. But that could be us as eyes opened and apathy and complaining shifted to support of democracy. Supposedly the U.S. was rated as an anocracy under tRump and is shifted back a bit into democracy, but not much now. I hate that our grandchildren are growing up in a nation with this reality.
Btw, an interesting question for another thread might be, if tRump were imprisoned, who would we least like to see succeed him at the rallies, working crowds up to march on his prison and liberate Der Leader? (In my probably not-so-fantastical fantasies, this leader's cabal makes sure tRump tragically but heroically dies before rescue.)
team limbaugh taught a generation of them to oppose anything democratic and liberal
trumpers are much smaller bunch and the republican pols following him are going off a cliff - like conservadems manchin and sinema
limbaugh was the leader of the cons for 3 decades merely by dint of controlling central messaging from 1500 coordinated radio stations. now he rots and central messaging is falling apart, and republican chances in 2022 are greatly exaggerated and definitely pushed, as usual, by republicans. they're going to push republican takeover bullshit so they can cry fraud when democrats win. limbaugh got trump in the white house and is no longer there to excuse him when these investigations ramp up and GOP reps and senators get drawn into the investigations - many of them. limbaugh's replacements can't hold it together.
democrats could really destroy the cons by destroying rw radio - with boycotts and protests, etc - just by no longer ignoring it
I think Trump will be indicted for a plethora of crimes by the DOJ. I think he'll be tried and I think he'll be convicted. I think he'll be forever disqualified from holding public office. I think he'll be sentenced to a seriously long term in prison. And I think, in an effort to avoid civil war (and political martyrdom), they'll commute his sentence.
The rest of his lackies who haven't flipped are going down but no commutation.
I'm not saying this is justice, I'm just thinking it's a way to punish Trump and not trigger the MAGAts.
I hope that it is but I see nothing.
It's not a transparent process. The more the target knows about the investigation the easier it is for him to pivot.
Also, Merrick Garland inherited a messed up DOJ. His first order of business would have been to reorganize from within, to identify Trump lackies and marginalize or remove them, and THEN move forward with this investigation. All behind closed doors with no fanfare and no media reports. In the meantime, the J6 Committee has been interviewing hundreds of people and doing the front end work for the DOJ.
If I'm wrong, at least I'll have these few months of contented delusion to calm my nerves. Because if I'm wrong, it's over.
the harder it is to prosecute, documents get destroyed, people collude to get their stories straight, memories fade. The quicker an investigation is done the better the results.
If DOJ were investigating Big Fish we would have heard about it, not from DOJ but from the people being investigated.
I dropped off of DU after the Mueller Report was quashed. I understand disappointment and anger when the system is stymied. But that was then, and this is now.
Like I said, if I'm wrong, we're effed. That's why I think a "compromise" is in the works, one that will punish the criminals but allow Trump to remain a free man, albeit in the private sector and subject to future prosecutions for his crimes before and after the presidency. Shitty-ish outcome, but one that strikes a certain balance.
Robert Mueller convicted or got guilty pleas from;
13 Russian nationals
3 Russian companies
Alex van der Zwaan
12 Russian GRU officers
Sam Patten per Mueller referral
Mueller indicted or got guilty pleas from 34 people and 3 companies, why did you drop off DU?
Let's run through that list and you tell me how it all turned out. If you're convinced that Mueller stymied the ascent of fascism with his tepid and incomplete investigation, then there's not much I can do for you.
I dropped off of DU for a time because my heart was broken and my country was left in the hands of the fascists after the Mueller report was quashed and Barr lied his ass off over it.
I felt it would be better to go away than to suffer loudly and repeatedly when I thought all was lost when there wasn't a damned thing I could do about it. That's how I perceive your posts. You're angry, and deservedly so, but you suggest no alternative outcome. I did.
By the way, I'm also flabbergasted that we haven't heard a peep from the DOJ other than Garland's press conference. But the fact that he held a press conference was an indication to me that they're not asleep at the wheel. If they are, kiss the USA goodbye and hope that one day democracy returns.
I totally agree with you. My point about Mueller is, why not release his report now? What is stopping it?
Mueller chose not to prosecute Trump because he believed he couldn't indict a sitting president, that is what frustrates me today. On the other hand it would have gone to the SC for that decision and I'm not so sure how that court would have ruled.
We will all have to go away if the fascists gain control of government, DU will be banned.
I believe that Garland's press conference was to buy him more time. I believe he was only talking about going after the people who did the riot part of the coup attempt. Maybe I am wrong, they did confiscate a bunch of Rudy's electronics. I just believe that if he were serious, he would have appointed a special grand jury by now. Elections are fast approaching and that's when DOJ shuts down.
people being investigated. That is why Trump is calling upon his followers to defend him with violence. It is not just the NY and GA investigations, and not just the Select Committee's revelations about what they know.
Trump knows that it goes higher than that, to a level where no one can save him. Unlike an impeachment, where his traitor party defended him, court charges cannot be won by a vote of his backers. So he is turning to a court of public opinion and violence to save his ass.
He gave over one million dollars to Meadows to keep Meadows from talking to DOJ. That alone is an indication that DOJ is investigating and Trump is afraid. It was after giving that money to Meadows that Trump pushed for violent defense of him from investigations.
I agree that it's not justice, per se. It still shows a 2-tier justice system, and most blatantly. And I don't know how much it'll keep his Magats in line. I think they're on their own course now with their own agenda and their own politicians, such as De Santis and Madison and a few (quite a few) others. Until we can pull all of these out by the roots, just getting Trump out of the way isn't going to make a whole lot of difference. Right now, he's a demented old man, cracking up in front of the cameras. I mean, the Newsmax interview ought to be proof of that... the Democrats pulled a coup on HIM? The loser of the election... with 2 weeks left in office? What kind of interviewer was the reporter, for pete's sake? I'd love to have heard the follow up to the "what was there to gain for the Dems?" (LOL)
He's seriously lost it mentally... both because of his mental deficiency and because of his age-related senility. The best that should happen is his family should get him OUT of the public's eye. But he won't let that happen. And the civil and criminal cases just keep closing in on him and his family. There's no family love and loyalty there like you and I would likely experience. I'd guess it's more like every snake in the grass for him/herself. Gods... being poor is hard. I've been poor; slept in my car with a 4-year-old poor. It's damned hard. But I'd rather do that and know I had love and good people around who could and would help me than the backstabbing and greed that comes with being rich. Whatever happens to Trump(s)... he and they deserve it all. May the evil they put out in the world consume them completely all at once.
Chinese spies were his concern.
Wray belongs to TFG. He and Kavanaugh are Yale law buddies from way back and Wray protected him during confirmation hearings. Wray and Kavanaugh both originally made their names in the Shrub maladministration.
If it does, it will come from a state. And I think the only way that will work without causing violence in the street is if he is convicted of a crime that disgusts his base. One that finally reveals without question that he is a weak worm and not their savior. That will take a lot of doing, though, and a lot of evidence that penetrates their ignorance.
BUT ...Welcome to DU!
it would have created a special prosecutor or special grand jury by now, just like it did for Watergate. Nixon resigned because a special grand jury named him as a co-conspirator. DOJ back then did its job. People on that grand jury have spoken out, they didn't want Nixon to resign, they felt they had enough evidence to convict him.
today is day 49 since the criminal referral for Mark Meadows. I am waiting for proof that Garland is willing to indict a politician, friend of Trump, former Trump cabinet member, or Trump himself. I believe he is more concerned to not appear partisan.
I am also going to keep track how long it takes DOJ to decide if it is going to investigate the fake electors, right now it is only investigating the Michigan criminal referral.
Isn't the key word "should?" Isn't it possible that Merrick Garland believes he can't indict a former president?
Watergate was successful because they formed a special grand jury, DOJ did its job. The same "should" be done right now for Trump.
What have we accomplished ,the select committee does its prime time expose' showing all of the Trump criminality and then what?
All of the dirt we have learned about the insurrection has come from the select committee, reporters, citizen groups doing FOIA requests. Thank god some states are taking on Trump. I feel for the Fulton county DA, DOJ should have done a parallel investiagtion.
Today is day 49 since the Meadows criminal referral.
Oh and Trump just publicly obstructed justice by threatening anyone who investigates him and by offering pardons to those who commit acts of violence to help him, which also sends a message for people not to cooperate with prosecutors.
we may already be past the point where we could find 12 jurors who would convict him or those close to him.