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Fri Jan 14, 2022, 12:50 AM

The vaccine mandate falls and I'm not mad about it

So this happened today https://www.politico.com/news/2022/01/13/scotus-blocks-bidens-workplace-vaccine-rule-527054

But I have to say, I am not upset. I expect this opinion to be very unpopular but hear me out.

Here are three thoughts.

1. They have already accomplished most of what they could
2. Things were about to get very messy
3. I did not see a clear exit strategy

I have to say I was never a big fan. I have been uneasy about it in ways that may have been solved today. So allow me to elaborate on my above thoughts.

1. Many companies pushed forward and set early deadlines that have already motivated most of the reasonable fence sitters. Those are gains that cannot be taken back. What is left are the stubborn hold-outs that are desperately hoping for a medical or health exemption. It seems to me like we have already gotten much of the benefit that was ever available.

2. Going forward, things were going to get very messy to actually enforce the mandate. The hardened hold-outs were mostly going to ride this to the bitter end. We were going to see daily stories about denied waivers and employee terminations. All of this in the face of staffing issues, inflation, product shortages, etc. It was going to be a PR nightmare and we were going to create a shitload of martyrs in the process. Most of that would come with very few additional vaccinations.

3. I don't for one second believe that #2 was going to play out quickly. I suspect it would take till at least the end of the year to really close the books on enforcement due to court challenges and appeals, etc.. Personally, I think the Omicron wave may be the last serious wave to this pandemic. The infection rates are high and fast and have dropped off precipitously in other Countries. The net result of that could leave a relatively resistant Country better prepared to fight off future waves. Combined with better treatments and higher vaccine rates, things are better now than they were six months ago. Which begs the question, would we be enforcing this mandate on a population that no longer wants it. I could easily see a time when the population feels like we are past this and the Government is left wondering what to do with the mandate. Enforce it even though it no longer feels necessary? Forget it and empower the martyrs? Revoke it at the last minute? It just seems like a mess.

So I say this is an ugly end that might have avoided an even uglier end. I would just release a strongly worded statement to the effect of "we tried to do the right thing but those partisan assholes over there have left us to suffer more pain and suffering every bit of which will now be their fault"

I fully expect to take a lot of grief in the comments so do your worst.



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Arrow 21 replies Author Time Post
Reply The vaccine mandate falls and I'm not mad about it (Original post)
genxlib Jan 2022 OP
MichMan Jan 2022 #1
dchill Jan 2022 #2
ecstatic Jan 2022 #3
SharonAnn Jan 2022 #4
brush Jan 2022 #5
Claustrum Jan 2022 #6
Stinky The Clown Jan 2022 #7
lapfog_1 Jan 2022 #8
genxlib Jan 2022 #13
EleanorR Jan 2022 #9
EleanorR Jan 2022 #10
SunSeeker Jan 2022 #11
genxlib Jan 2022 #14
SunSeeker Jan 2022 #15
Ace Rothstein Jan 2022 #17
SunSeeker Jan 2022 #21
Deminpenn Jan 2022 #12
Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Jan 2022 #16
mahina Jan 2022 #18
Hav Jan 2022 #19
Dorian Gray Jan 2022 #20

Response to genxlib (Original post)

Fri Jan 14, 2022, 12:55 AM

1. I agree, but I know there are some here who seem to get great pleasure when people get terminated

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Response to genxlib (Original post)

Fri Jan 14, 2022, 12:59 AM

2. More variants will almost surely ensue.

That's a bad thing.

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Response to genxlib (Original post)

Fri Jan 14, 2022, 12:59 AM

3. I agree too. Enforcement was going to be a PR and an HR nightmare

Everyone who was going to vaccinate has vaccinated by now.

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Response to genxlib (Original post)

Fri Jan 14, 2022, 01:00 AM

4. Appreciate your clear explanation and think you're right. Declare victory and move on

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Response to genxlib (Original post)

Fri Jan 14, 2022, 01:03 AM

5. I disagree. The pandemic was just extended indefinitely by SCOTUS...

and the blame for the pandemic will be on Joe Biden in the '22 campaign instead on the orange toad who bungled the nation's response from the jump, thus highly endangering our Congressional majorities even more.

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Response to genxlib (Original post)

Fri Jan 14, 2022, 01:04 AM

6. I have long hold the opinion that

We should charge unvaccinated a higher premium or simply treat unvaccinated as “out of network” so they have to pay out of pocket for their COVID treatment. That would motivate most holdout to get vaccinated.

The enforcement of the mandate was always a tough one to enforce with the ever changing definition of who is “fully vaccinated”.

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Response to genxlib (Original post)

Fri Jan 14, 2022, 01:07 AM

7. You willet nothing from me . . . . . . .

. . . . . except a rec. I agree with your sentiment.

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Response to genxlib (Original post)

Fri Jan 14, 2022, 01:18 AM

8. lets see

you worry about enforcement.

The OSHA requirement was for vaccination or weekly testing to remain EMPLOYED. The companies that employ people (only those with over 100 employees) would do the enforcement, your record of vaccination is not only on the little card they handed you, but also in a database. The company checks with the database and if you aren't in it and you refuse the weekly test they terminate your employment.

And, contrary to some of the replies here, where companies have implemented this strategy (without the mandate from OSHA), it has worked remarkably well, and the repukes assertions that thousands of people would lose their jobs simply hasn't happened.

Not to mention that we, as a populace, have been mandated to get all sorts of other vaccines if we want to attend school. The list is quite long and nobody raised a stink about it before... and the people being mandated are CHILDREN.

The requirement to have an OSHA rule was put in place to give some companies (especially in red state 'merica) COVER to require employees to be vaccinated. Quite frankly the rule should have been in place by June of 2021. We needed 90 percent vaccination rates by now to prevent the nearly 1500 deaths a day we are seeing from Delta and Omicron.

We needed the entire planet to be vaccinated to prevent mutations and keep us all working at our jobs, making goods, distributing goods, etc. The inflation we have today... direct result of NOT vaccinating the world in the Spring of 2021 (almost a year ago). Lack of workers means lack of goods, lack of goods being produced results in higher prices for those goods... i.e. inflation.

Workers like me (older, diabetic) should have the ability to go to work without the risk of catching what has been a deadly disease from an un-vaccinated co-worker. Your lack of vaccine endangers everyone you come into contact with. This is exactly what OSHA was created to prevent... dangerous workplace environments.

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Response to lapfog_1 (Reply #8)

Fri Jan 14, 2022, 02:00 AM

13. I agree with basically everything you said

In a just world without assholes, it should be that way even without policy to require it.

Testing is a fair alternative and certainly softened how heavy handed the policy is. But I don't know if it is a sustainable alternative for logistical and cost reasons over the long haul. And it also falls under question #3 as to when to stop it? Are they testing forever?

It is also a lot simpler to say just fire people than it is in real life. Some of those people have skills, knowledge and training that is hard to replace.

It just isn't that clean and simple. Even my friendly Canadian based company was struggling to implement without backlash.

And at the end of the day, a fired person still doesn't get the vaccination so we haven't moved the needle on herd immunity anyway.

But you are correct that the real loss here is to the vulnerable who will be less safe for in-person employment.

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Response to genxlib (Original post)

Fri Jan 14, 2022, 01:28 AM

9. It was vaccine or test NT

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Response to genxlib (Original post)

Fri Jan 14, 2022, 01:31 AM

10. either take the vaccine or test once a week.

The regulation struck down by the court would have applied to some 84 million private sector employees and would have required all businesses with 100 or more workers to either be vaccinated, with the federal government footing the bill, or be tested weekly.

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Response to genxlib (Original post)

Fri Jan 14, 2022, 01:45 AM

11. What do you have against mandated TESTING in lieu of vaccination?

That's all OSHA mandated. Nobody was being forced to get vaccinated or lose their jobs except healthcare workers, but SCOTUS upheld that mandate!

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #11)

Fri Jan 14, 2022, 02:02 AM

14. Fair question and good point

Testing is a fair alternative and certainly softened how heavy handed the policy is. But I don't know if it is a sustainable alternative for logistical and cost reasons over the long haul.

And it also falls under question #3 as to when to stop it? Are they testing forever?

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Response to genxlib (Reply #14)

Fri Jan 14, 2022, 02:17 AM

15. Of course it's not forever. It was an emergency regulation pending the pandemic emergency.

Nobody had argued it would go on forever. Once the emergency of the pandemic is over, the OSHA regulation would be over too.

Testing has proven quite logistically and financially feasible with the large employers I am familiar with. This is particularly true with the availability of self-administered 15-minute rapid tests that are cheap, less than $10 per test, which the federal government subsidizes. And of course only a small portion of employees would need the test since most employees are vaccinated. Testing is a LOT cheaper on a business than covid outbreaks.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #11)

Fri Jan 14, 2022, 03:40 AM

17. The testing piece was fairly useless if it was only going to be once a week.

Even more so in the age of Omicron.

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Response to Ace Rothstein (Reply #17)

Fri Jan 14, 2022, 02:36 PM

21. Once weekly testing of vaccine holdouts at UCLA administration has proven effective.

I have a friend who works there and there have been no outbreaks among staff that he is aware of. But UCLA tests all their employees weekly, not just the anti-vaxx nutjobs.

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Response to genxlib (Original post)

Fri Jan 14, 2022, 01:50 AM

12. All good points

with which I agree.

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Response to genxlib (Original post)

Fri Jan 14, 2022, 03:22 AM

16. Trashing thread

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Response to genxlib (Original post)

Fri Jan 14, 2022, 03:49 AM

18. I hadn't thought of it that way so I guess there is an upside but

The downside is we obviously have a supreme court who doesn’t give a rats if we live or die

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Response to genxlib (Original post)

Fri Jan 14, 2022, 04:14 AM

19. The major flaw in that reasoning is waning immunity

Protection from the vaccines and some form of immunity after an infection (that might be gone with the next variant) isn't a one and done thing. We need people to get boosters and maybe stronger vaccine types for coming variants.
Whatever resistance against the virus there currently is or after Omicron, it will decrease over time. So there are major problems with your first and third point.

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Response to genxlib (Original post)

Fri Jan 14, 2022, 06:38 AM

20. I think

you expressed yourself clearly and not rudely, and it gives me food for thought.

Having said that, I also worry about

a) variants. There are well respected doctors (Dr. Peter Hotez) who very publicly state that unless we get the rest of the world vaccinated, variants will keep coming at us, much like Omicron. And we fear worse ones.

b) I'm stubborn in that I have a lot of anger at people refusing to vaccinate AND the people who are giving misinformation about vaccines.

c) I really feel like the SC is a political institution now. And that concerns me.


But, I do think that you're kind of right in that the people who are anti-vaccine are dug in and won't turn now. Unless people from their local communities whom they trust somehow do the outreach and convince them. We need to put our efforts into persuasion and combatting mis-info. I wish we had done that from the beginning.

I'm angry enough to take pleasure in big mouths getting shut down. I'm angry enough to take pleasure in shitheels getting fired. I'm angry enough to take pleasure in Djokovic getting kicked out of Australia. But, in reality, I don't know if those things are going to be what moves people to change their minds.

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