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Sun Jan 2, 2022, 11:11 AM

"I've done my own research and decided not to get the vaccine".

I did not grow up in the age of the internet.

I did not grow up in the age of social media.

In high school one of my teachers spent a whole semester showing us how to do research for a paper. But the topic was nothing so important as getting vaccinated.

We live in an age where there is a huge amount of readily accessible information. But a lot of people don't know how to use it. Just as you can make an argument for just about anything from the Bible, you can find any opinion you want on the internet.

Facebook is not research. You can find any opinion you want on Facebook.

Twitter is not research. You can find any opinion you want on Twitter.

Listening to Joe Rogan is not research.

In this age, people consider all sources of information to be equal. They are not.

119 replies, 11918 views

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Reply "I've done my own research and decided not to get the vaccine". (Original post)
milestogo Jan 2022 OP
Diamond_Dog Jan 2022 #1
milestogo Jan 2022 #2
BlueIdaho Jan 2022 #24
keithbvadu2 Jan 2022 #50
paleotn Jan 2022 #54
calimary Jan 2022 #61
soldierant Jan 2022 #88
Farmer-Rick Jan 2022 #58
ret5hd Jan 2022 #4
Rebl2 Jan 2022 #19
Dark n Stormy Knight Jan 2022 #104
Rebl2 Jan 2022 #108
keithbvadu2 Jan 2022 #53
ret5hd Jan 2022 #71
allegorical oracle Jan 2022 #91
ailsagirl Jan 2022 #93
RobinA Jan 2022 #110
Haggard Celine Jan 2022 #3
milestogo Jan 2022 #5
Haggard Celine Jan 2022 #6
PatrickforB Jan 2022 #38
johnnyfins Jan 2022 #106
PatrickforB Jan 2022 #119
kiri Jan 2022 #46
RobinA Jan 2022 #112
kiri Jan 2022 #57
Moostache Jan 2022 #107
airplaneman Jan 2022 #74
Kaleva Jan 2022 #83
RobinA Jan 2022 #111
fierywoman Jan 2022 #7
PatrickforB Jan 2022 #40
milestogo Jan 2022 #113
PatrickforB Jan 2022 #118
multigraincracker Jan 2022 #8
Alpeduez21 Jan 2022 #9
Richard58 Jan 2022 #20
3catwoman3 Jan 2022 #10
Thtwudbeme Jan 2022 #11
cbabe Jan 2022 #28
Thtwudbeme Jan 2022 #30
cbabe Jan 2022 #32
PatrickforB Jan 2022 #44
spooky3 Jan 2022 #60
LuckyLib Jan 2022 #86
PatrickforB Jan 2022 #95
RobinA Jan 2022 #114
nuxvomica Jan 2022 #12
BradBo Jan 2022 #13
Josiesdad Jan 2022 #14
kiri Jan 2022 #42
YP_Yooper Jan 2022 #45
Girard442 Jan 2022 #15
CaptainTruth Jan 2022 #34
keithbvadu2 Jan 2022 #59
ShazamIam Jan 2022 #16
MineralMan Jan 2022 #17
patphil Jan 2022 #18
Orrex Jan 2022 #21
milestogo Jan 2022 #23
Orrex Jan 2022 #69
RobinA Jan 2022 #115
Skittles Jan 2022 #99
Orrex Jan 2022 #109
thesquanderer Jan 2022 #22
cadoman Jan 2022 #25
keithbvadu2 Jan 2022 #62
GB_RN Jan 2022 #26
milestogo Jan 2022 #27
Jon King Jan 2022 #29
milestogo Jan 2022 #37
Jon King Jan 2022 #43
milestogo Jan 2022 #48
Jon King Jan 2022 #65
RobinA Jan 2022 #116
monkeyman1 Jan 2022 #100
40RatRod Jan 2022 #31
malaise Jan 2022 #33
Sgent Jan 2022 #35
CaptainTruth Jan 2022 #36
TeamProg Jan 2022 #52
LudwigPastorius Jan 2022 #39
Nevilledog Jan 2022 #41
Snackshack Jan 2022 #47
TeamProg Jan 2022 #49
Paladin Jan 2022 #51
YP_Yooper Jan 2022 #55
BumRushDaShow Jan 2022 #67
YP_Yooper Jan 2022 #68
milestogo Jan 2022 #85
RobinA Jan 2022 #117
Hieronymus Phact Jan 2022 #56
milestogo Jan 2022 #70
Aussie105 Jan 2022 #80
I_UndergroundPanther Jan 2022 #97
Jon King Jan 2022 #63
Initech Jan 2022 #64
keithbvadu2 Jan 2022 #66
Ruby the Liberal Jan 2022 #72
elias7 Jan 2022 #73
MFM008 Jan 2022 #75
milestogo Jan 2022 #78
JI7 Jan 2022 #76
bucolic_frolic Jan 2022 #77
Aussie105 Jan 2022 #79
Skittles Jan 2022 #81
Kaleva Jan 2022 #82
Liberty Belle Jan 2022 #84
SCantiGOP Jan 2022 #87
bhikkhu Jan 2022 #89
Smackdown2019 Jan 2022 #90
IronLionZion Jan 2022 #92
milestogo Jan 2022 #94
Stuart G Jan 2022 #96
Renew Deal Jan 2022 #98
True Blue American Jan 2022 #101
anamnua Jan 2022 #102
KY_EnviroGuy Jan 2022 #103
EYESORE 9001 Jan 2022 #105

Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 11:21 AM

1. I always wonder

What’s wrong with asking your doctor? That’s what I do.

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Response to Diamond_Dog (Reply #1)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 11:24 AM

2. Because at some level they already know what the answer would be.

And they aren't looking for an answer so much as for a justification for defying it.

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Response to milestogo (Reply #2)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 12:55 PM

24. Confirmation Bias.

Looking at only those things that confirm a preexisting position. Typical right wing close minded bullshit.

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Response to BlueIdaho (Reply #24)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 01:48 PM

50. Yes!

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Response to BlueIdaho (Reply #24)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 01:55 PM

54. Bingo.

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Response to BlueIdaho (Reply #24)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 02:09 PM

61. Yep. They've "researched" it, alright.

From what we used to refer to in college as a “trunk-of-a-blue-Chevy” source (in terms of “legitimate” “credibility”). In their case, it’d more accurately be a red Chevy.

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Response to calimary (Reply #61)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 08:49 PM

88. -Or the bed of a red Chevy pickup.

That would spare them the trouble of opening the trunk (do they know how?)

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Response to milestogo (Reply #2)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 02:04 PM

58. Bingo

It's not about research. It's about what feels good to them.

Does it feel good to think there is no pandemic? Yes, so there is no pandemic. All those dead COVID infected people would have died from the flu anyway. Trump is not at fault for killing hundreds of thousands by doing Nothing. Does it feel good thinking you don't have to do anything about the pandemic? Yes

Does it feel good to not need doctors and vaccines? Does it feel good to think you can take care of all your illnesses without relying on a very expensive medical system? Does it feel good not having to get a painful shot and not having 3 days of mild illness? Yes, yes and yes.

Does it feel good snubbing your nose at pharmacutical corporations that are part of the problem with our prohibtedly expense medical system? Yes, so just follow your feelings but pretend it's research. No need to deal with reality. So much simpler to think things are OK. Just think yourself to health.

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Response to Diamond_Dog (Reply #1)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 11:34 AM

4. What doctors should do:

D: Are you vaccinated?
P: No.
D: why not?
P: blah blah research blah
D: I can no longer be your doctor. Please leave now.
P: Wha?!?!
D: You obviously don’t respect my knowledge and training. Leave now.

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Response to ret5hd (Reply #4)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 12:37 PM

19. They should

but many won’t do that

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Response to Rebl2 (Reply #19)

Mon Jan 3, 2022, 09:51 AM

104. Hell, most of them can't even stand up to

patients demanding antibiotics for a common cold.

Many docs who know it's wrong and, in the big picture, harmful just give in and write the Rx.

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Response to Dark n Stormy Knight (Reply #104)

Mon Jan 3, 2022, 11:25 AM

108. So true

Have never understood that.

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Response to ret5hd (Reply #4)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 01:51 PM

53. And refer them to a doctor who will treat them for their self-diagnosis

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Response to keithbvadu2 (Reply #53)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 04:26 PM

71. Dr. Oz, Dr. Google, Dr. Twitter...

any faith-healer, cousin Joe Bob and his alcoholic wife Denise…hell, there’s a plethora of qualified epidemiologists around. If phone books were still a thing, just open a page and throw a dart.

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Response to Diamond_Dog (Reply #1)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 09:35 PM

91. Tried that and failed...

Doctors are rare in my rural area, so we must travel to nearby large cities. Due to a childhood illness, was never vaccinated for any of usual childhood ailments after being tested and having a severe reaction to them. Same occurred with the polio vaccine and two tetanus shot skin tests. Seems my blood clots faster than normal. All I get from doctors is, "Well, you'll have to make up your own mind about it." Another suggested that I check into a hospital to get vaccinated so I can be under observation for a week. Just wish skin tests for the Covid vaccine were available so I could have a better basis for making a decision.

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Response to Diamond_Dog (Reply #1)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 10:19 PM

93. It never fails to astound me...

when anti-vaxxers, in the face of *overwhelming* evidence to the contrary, persist in declaring that being inoculated is pointless.

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Response to Diamond_Dog (Reply #1)

Mon Jan 3, 2022, 01:23 PM

110. Near As I Can Tell

they think the doctor is part of the vast conspiracy to...whatever they think the COVID Conspiracy has as its ultimate goal. You basically believe nothing that doesn't fit your worldview and anything that does. Essentially, everybody but the loon on You Tube is part of the vast somewing conspiracy to make people wear masks and get vaccinated for the enrichment of Pharma and an ever-expanding bunch of other entities who benefit from the government's ability to create fear. Except if "the government" is Donald Trump, and then his fear-mongering is accurate.

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 11:30 AM

3. People don't seem to have much common sense these days.

Equating all information sources on the internet is like getting some random person to do your heart surgery. Why can't people see that? I guess they pick out the 'facts' that they want to believe are true, for whatever reason. They don't want to think, and they don't want to accept the fact that there are some things they are ignorant about.

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Response to Haggard Celine (Reply #3)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 11:37 AM

5. Its like getting your manicurist to do your heart surgery.

She's very pleasant, she has new tools, and you can be awake during the procedure.

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Response to milestogo (Reply #5)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 11:43 AM

6. There you go!

They'll get medical advice from Facebook as readily as they will from the Mayo Clinic. It's really bizarre that so many people can't see the error in that.

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Response to Haggard Celine (Reply #3)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 01:21 PM

38. Well, electing Trump in 2016, and then the fact that 70 million people voted for the guy

in 2020 makes your point. Essentially, America elected a plumber to fly a jet plane.

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Response to PatrickforB (Reply #38)

Mon Jan 3, 2022, 10:57 AM

106. I'm not a plumber, but good ones are skilled individuals

I'd go with "America elected a spoiled man baby to fly a jet plane"

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Response to johnnyfins (Reply #106)

Mon Jan 3, 2022, 05:01 PM

119. I get it, but stand by my analogy. A plumber may be VERY talented. However, I would not

want that person to try and fly a jet plane I was traveling in as a passenger. Conversely, I would not seek out a commercial pilot to sweat a leaking joint in my crawlspace.

Sure, Trump is a spoiled man baby, but to use another occupational analogy, electing him as POTUS was the eqivalent, in terms of him being able to do the job, of hiring an unskilled laborer to perform brain surgery. That's my point. The guy was grossly unqualified to do the job. And yeah, he was corrupt, criminal, engaged in racketeering, and is a traitor. But he was also quite unqualified for the job.

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Response to Haggard Celine (Reply #3)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 01:39 PM

46. every time there is a theory of gravity, it is mixed up with fringe mathematics.

"Even Isaac Newton, said to be the discoverer of gravity, knew there were problems with the theory. He claims to have invented the idea early in his life, but he knew that no mathematician of his day would approve his theory, so he invented a whole new branch of mathematics, called fluxions, just to "prove" his theory. This became calculus, a deeply flawed branch having to do with so-called "infinitesimals" which have never been observed.

Then when Einstein invented a new theory of gravity, he, too, used an obscure bit of mathematics called tensors. It seems that every time there is a theory of gravity, it is mixed up with fringe mathematics. Newton, by the way, was far from a secular scientist, and the bulk of his writings is actually on theology and Christianity. His dabbling in gravity, alchemy, and calculus was a mere sideline, perhaps an aberration best left forgotten in describing his career and faith in a Creator."

https://ncse.ngo/gravity-its-only-theory

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Response to kiri (Reply #46)

Mon Jan 3, 2022, 01:45 PM

112. Now You Tell Me!

I knew in 4th grade that math was full of crap, but nobody would believe me!

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Response to Haggard Celine (Reply #3)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 01:59 PM

57. Tides disprove 'gravity'

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Response to kiri (Reply #57)

Mon Jan 3, 2022, 11:03 AM

107. Never a "misunderstanding"... (n/t)

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Response to Haggard Celine (Reply #3)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 06:28 PM

74. it seems to me

common sense is not common
Fake news is anything you don't want to hear.
-Airplane

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Response to Haggard Celine (Reply #3)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 07:51 PM

83. Humans, by nature, are not rational creatures.

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Response to Haggard Celine (Reply #3)

Mon Jan 3, 2022, 01:42 PM

111. It Is A Feature

not a bug that the Internet crazy is uneducated or barely educated and not connected to any previously heard of group or institution. Those educated people from established institutions are all part of the plan. Part of the attraction, I believe, of all this nonsense is that these conspiracy believers think they are in touch with a wealth of correct knowledge that is being suppressed by the established powers that be. Which makes them special, and of course, smarter than the Harvard Grad PhD MD who is doing the government's bidding by telling people to get vaccinated.

That's the attraction of Ivermectin, I believe. It's on (or used to be) the shelf at Tractor Supply, not sold from behind the counter by Pharma (oops, well just ignore that label) with the endorsement of 25 Ivy-educated elites. We don't need no education!!!

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 12:06 PM

7. Wiki is not research, either.

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Response to fierywoman (Reply #7)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 01:24 PM

40. In its defense, it can be a place to begin, but then yes, you do need to

dig into multiple sources. At this point, libraries offer free access to a staggering amount of online data, and certainly the federal data sources such as the Census, BEA and BLS have some good credibility.

As to whether or not to get a vaccine, I've never really been dumb enough to go down that rabbit hole. I just get the shot and subsequently DON'T get the disease.

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Response to PatrickforB (Reply #40)

Mon Jan 3, 2022, 01:57 PM

113. If you have a trusted resource it doesn't have to be that complicated.

I trust the recommendations of Johns Hopkins.

I trust the recommendations of my state and local departments of health.

I trust my doctors.


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Response to milestogo (Reply #113)

Mon Jan 3, 2022, 04:55 PM

118. Indeed. That is all you need concerning whether to get vaxxed or not. I research labor market

and economic trends for a living, so was replying using that as a scope. Obviously, the BLS or Census wouldn't help you decide on the validity of the vaccine or not, but they are quite useful for demographics, economic and labor stats.

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 12:13 PM

8. Can I get your primary source,

abstract and footnotes?

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 12:15 PM

9. Either you don't know what research is

or you're a moron. Those are the only two conclusions to someone whose 'research' has convinced them to not vaccinate.

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Response to Alpeduez21 (Reply #9)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 12:43 PM

20. Yep

My brother's version of "research" is whatever Fox News tells him. Sigh.

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 12:15 PM

10. I want to ask these "researchers"...

… few questions and watch their eyes glaze over

- what peer-reviewed journals articles did you read
- what was your null hypothesis
- what was your N
- what was your p
- do you know what confirmation bias is

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 12:22 PM

11. Librarians and media coordinator spend hours a week

in schools and universities teaching the skills. I am one- my SIXTH graders say on a regular basis, "this is a credible source because..."

Why do you think the RW nuts are after our jobs in the schools? Do you really believe it's because we let kids check out the latest copy of "Captain Underpants?"

Books- freely selected reading materials- are only a small part of why the RW despises us. Imagine a Trumper's kid coming home and saying, "Mrs. Thtwudbeme showed us how to choose unbiased factual news, and I don't want to watch Fox anymore."

If we go much further to the right- I expect I'll be out of a job sooner rather than later--- the handwriting is on the wall.

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Response to Thtwudbeme (Reply #11)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 01:06 PM

28. Credible source story:

Immigrant 8th grader asked if a site was credible. I said ‘Well, it’s Harvard so it’s probably ok’.

He replied, ‘What’s Harvard?’

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Response to cbabe (Reply #28)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 01:11 PM

30. Awww ...i love middle schoolers

Easier to teach them how to discern the differences between urls.......com .net, .edu etc. They get that fast!

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Response to Thtwudbeme (Reply #30)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 01:13 PM

32. Yes. And easy to excite about education. 'Let's get ready for high school!'

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Response to Thtwudbeme (Reply #11)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 01:33 PM

44. I'm in the workforce development system, and businesses tell us all the time

they need problem solvers who have a 'can-do' attitude and can think critically.

Problem is, you cannot have it both ways. You cannot have a workforce that can apply critical thought to business operations while at the same time failing to do so with issues that affect them and their families.

We are at the end-stage of the peculiar 'profit over people' shareholder primacy system of corporate governance that is currently victimizing us all.

People are beginning to ask the hard questions of elected officials, like: why in the heck is our healthcare system monetized? Why is big pharma profit-driven? Why do we have private for-profit prisons? Why do we squander so much money on war when we could use it to pay for healthcare, including dental care, subsidized childcare, affordable debt-free college and so on?

Why do we get nickel and dimed every day? Why are more and more of the costs of healthcare, dental care, college and childcare being passed on to consumers while our public treasury is being systematically looted by billionaire parasites?

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Response to PatrickforB (Reply #44)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 02:06 PM

60. +1 nt

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Response to PatrickforB (Reply #44)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 08:34 PM

86. Bernie has been hammering those questions for years.

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Response to LuckyLib (Reply #86)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 11:36 PM

95. Indeed. And now he has been joined by the Squad, Senator Warren, and Katie Porter,

among others.

Do you ever wonder why the people who ask these questions are labeled as being far left, fringe left, or even radical? Socialists?

Corporate owned media has done a masterful job of creating this labeling for people who reasonably want their tax dollars to be spent on programs that materially benefit them and their families. Silly people! Everyone knows corporate profits and tax cuts for billionaires are FAR more important that stupid stuff like universal healthcare!

C'mon. Let's not listen to these radical socialists!

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Response to PatrickforB (Reply #44)

Mon Jan 3, 2022, 01:58 PM

114. Having Worked

for big business and state government, I am 150% certain that the LAST thing either of them want is critical thinkers. And they do have some despite themselves. They've just managed to train their people very well that thinking critically is not a valued skill, and one that could result in employment problems.

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 12:23 PM

12. There's an element fear denial with these folks

I think a lot of them are so afraid of COVID they want to wish it away and engage in the mind-over-matter folk belief behind toxic positivism: if you are sick it's because you believe you are sick. They often complain about "fear mongering" as though that's the real injury, like scientists and other sane people are attacking them with a made-up problem that can nonetheless make them physically sick if they concede to it. This is the perspective of the overaged child, the infantilization at the root of most of your problems.

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 12:23 PM

13. It's super easy now to get the best information.

CDC, respected doctors, double blind studies that are peer reviewed. I grew up with 6 tv channels and an antenna. It was hard as heck to get good info. The people that are anti-vaxx are just intentionally stupid and put politics before logic.
Here is a good example.
I spent an hour learning about a new balance devise to measure a kilogram.
Fascinating. That’s the stuff that wasn’t in the Encyclopedia Brittanica.
The Kibble Balance.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/infrastructure/a27703249/kibble-balance-measuring-system/

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 12:24 PM

14. It is deeper than that... Sometimes even with good facts they can jump to invalid conclusions.

Consider this old internet meme...

"I see people wearing winter coats and hats. What a bunch of sheep! LOL! I did my own research and found out that only 1500 people die from hypothermia in the US per year. That's only 0.0005% of the population. They live in fear of something that 99.9995% of people won't die from. It gets better, a lot of the people who died from hypothermia were wearing coats and hats, and they still died! Coats don't work!"

To which I add... And further research shows that those hypothermia deaths in North America mostly occurred north of the Mason Dixon line... It is a Yankee Problem; Southerners are Immune! Roll Tide!

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Response to Josiesdad (Reply #14)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 01:25 PM

42. Gravity is often taught in schools as a fact, when in fact it is not even a good theory

https://ncse.ngo/gravity-its-only-theory

The Universal Theory of Gravity is often taught in schools as a fact, when in fact it is not even a good theory.
...
Secondly, school textbooks routinely make false statements. For example, "the moon goes around the earth." If the theory of gravity were true, it would show that the sun's gravitational force on the moon is much stronger than the earth's gravitational force on the moon, so the moon would go around the sun. Anybody can look up at night and see the obvious gaps in gravity theory.
...
Overall, the Theory of Universal Gravity is just not an attractive theory. It is based on borderline evidence, has many serious gaps in what it claims to explain, is clearly wrong in important respects, and has social and moral deficiencies. If taught in the public schools, by misdirected "educators", it has to be balanced with alternative, more attractive theories with genuine gravamen and spiritual gravitas.

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Response to kiri (Reply #42)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 01:36 PM

45. Exactly why bible thumpers should stay out of education - especially science

 

Fox News' #2 headline today was how science now proves the Adam and Eve story happening around 6,000 yrs ago is compatible with evolution

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 12:28 PM

15. Do some more research and conclude that hospitals are useless.

That way you won't clog up an ICU with your dying ass.

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Response to Girard442 (Reply #15)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 01:16 PM

34. +100

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Response to Girard442 (Reply #15)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 02:04 PM

59. Conclusions about hospitals.

Conclusions about hospitals. When my son was about two and a half, his great grandparents both died in the hospital of old age. He did not want to go to the hospital because that's where you went to die. It was logical to him.

But he was about two and a half,

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 12:30 PM

16. Yes.Research is not finding an opinion you agree with and falsely identifying that opinion as fact.


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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 12:33 PM

17. Well, now it's just as easy to get incorrect information as correct.

You can find "information" to fit any point of view you wish to take.

And that's the problem, really. Unless you can or will verify the information you find online, you can be easily confused. And most people have no idea how to verify information. That's why there were medical experts telling people what was correct. They were ignored by many, who preferred "information" that confirmed their biases or fears.

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 12:33 PM

18. They don't call it social media for nothing.

And that's what the overwhelming majority of it is worth.

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 12:47 PM

21. This is not new to the pandemic

Even here on DU, just a few years ago, we saw a number of "researchers" whose "research" had brought them to the conclusion that vaccines cause autism, despite literally zero evidence that this is the case. And those true-believers were every bit as passionate as the current cult of antivaxers.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #21)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 12:55 PM

23. A while ago I had a neighbor and friend who was right wing.

I don't think she even knew what right wing was, but all of her relatives were right wingers and she went along with everything they said. I showed her how to get on the internet and get an email address.

Well, all of her relatives would pass around ridiculous right wing info and she would send it to me. Things like "Obama's going to destroy Social Security". I showed her Snopes. Well, she thought it must be a biased site. The more outrageous it was the more she defended it. Finally I got tired of arguing with her and asked her to stop emailing me this crap.

We didn't talk much after that. Her authoritative source was her relatives. And she wasn't going to stop going along with them, as that would result in a lot of friction.

I am not in touch with her any more, but I imagine she's an anti-vaxxer. And with her health issues, that's really dangerous.

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Response to milestogo (Reply #23)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 02:31 PM

69. I sympathize, believe me!

I have family members who consider a thing "proven" if they get supporting emails or links from two different friends, especially if those links contradict the "official" position on the subject.

And once they've decided that they know The Truth, literally nothing will change their minds.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #69)

Mon Jan 3, 2022, 02:06 PM

115. Contradicting

the official position is key, if not the entire point.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #21)

Mon Jan 3, 2022, 04:16 AM

99. oh I remember those fucking idiots

I wondered how they were able to dress themselves.

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Response to Skittles (Reply #99)

Mon Jan 3, 2022, 12:33 PM

109. It was a rare week that I wasn't called a "Big Pharma shill"

Of course I was "closed-minded," too.

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 12:47 PM

22. That should be on some people's tombstones. n/t

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 12:57 PM

25. I think you summarized it yourself: bible believers and anti-vaxxers overlap almost 100%

I wonder why? Maybe I'll just turn some water into wine and puzzle it over.

Ok kidding aside, and much love to all our christian membership. I've found medical decisions to be the most personal decisions, at a level even beyond political and religious ones. If you've ever made basic health suggestions to someone you know just what I'm talking about. Doctors frequently express frustration with patients not making extremely basic lifestyle changes as recommended (hence why they always fall back to pill prescriptions and surgery). People want others to change, but not to perform any change themselves.

So yes, that's why mandates have to be on the table. There simply isn't a way to convince people of some things. We trust the science which is demonstrably factual; they are enraptured in fantastical group-think (or mass formation psychosis if you're playing buzzword of the week). We have a Democracy and law enforcement for just these sorts of public health "conundrums". We either use those resources or the pandemic will slowly kill us all.

Our sisters in the five eyes have shown us the way (Australia, Canada, NZ, GB). We have only to follow.

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Response to cadoman (Reply #25)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 02:10 PM

62. Five eyes... never heard of that. Always something new to learn.

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 12:59 PM

26. Opinions Are Like Assholes...

Everyone has one. And, assholes usually have more than one!

Opinions are not facts.

Scientists will tell you that the plural of anecdote is not hard data. The story you heard from drunk Uncle Bob about having a bad reaction to the vaccine is an “anecdote”. A bad reaction to one person could be a rash, or a fever. A bad reaction to a scientist is anaphylaxis (swelling of the throat and airway, resulting in inability to breathe), or Stephens-Johnson Syndrome.

So sick of these people.🤦‍♂️

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Response to GB_RN (Reply #26)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 01:05 PM

27. And some anecdotes, like the one about bloated testicles from the vaccine

are just plain lies.

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Response to GB_RN (Reply #26)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 01:07 PM

29. Could not agree more.

With a Masters in Microbiology it got silly when the MAGA air conditioning repair guy lectured me about vaccines. Just gets so old when people try to pass on opinions as education.

You can have an opinion on your favorite color, you can not have an opinion that your toaster is a bowl of grapes. Facts are facts.

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Response to Jon King (Reply #29)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 01:19 PM

37. There's always been a sense that people as individuals can be their own "experts"

at politics and religion. Even though there is a lot to know about both, they are partly about values.

But you only get to be an expert in science or medicine through years of rigorous training. Most people have no idea. The particulars of science or medicine can be debated among the experts, who already have a deep foundation of knowledge. But when you have a lay person chiming in, thinking their opinion is just as valid, its kind of absurd.

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Response to milestogo (Reply #37)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 01:32 PM

43. And they are so selective as to when they are medical experts!!

If they had a heart attack or got their legs crushed in a car crash, they would give themselves completely over to the medical experts with no questions asked.

But in terms of this virus? Joe Rogan over their doctor of 30 years hands down. Amazing how they pick and choose when the medical experts are experts.

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Response to Jon King (Reply #43)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 01:43 PM

48. Quote of the week: 'If science can't be questioned, it's not science'

This is from Aaron Rodgers, who thinks his expertise in football qualifies him to question science. I doubt he's even had a science class since high school.

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Response to milestogo (Reply #48)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 02:15 PM

65. Aaron Rogers sounds so utterly stupid with that quote.

Of course science can be questioned, by performing detailed research studies. Geez, you learn this in high school science class, how to run an experiment without bias.

Rogers is welcome to conduct his own research and publish the details of his methodology and findings for review by other scientists.

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Response to Jon King (Reply #29)

Mon Jan 3, 2022, 02:16 PM

116. As A Former Social Worker

with a working knowledge of the benefit system, I can second this. The stories I have heard about the wonderfulness of government giveaways and all the money/services someone's deadbeat brother got . I used to keep my mouth shut, but I got so sick of it I started to try to be informative. To absolutely no avail. Even easily Googlable numbers were never believed.

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Response to GB_RN (Reply #26)

Mon Jan 3, 2022, 04:34 AM

100. that's my favorite !

 

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 01:12 PM

31. Hey! If anyone gets more that five likes, it must be true.

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 01:15 PM

33. Overheard one on radio saying she was doing a research on Covid

Didn’t hear the end- that was too much for me.

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 01:17 PM

35. Especially for a layman

even something like Pubmed can be cherrypicked if you don't know what you are looking at. One paper that shows bad results and 30 that shows good means you probably ignore the bad result. You really need to look at meta-analysis, consensus statements, and guidelines from professional societies and national governments in almost all cases. If there is conflict in those -- for instance the US currently recommends 5 days of isolation, France 7, and the UK 10, then figure out what's going on.

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 01:18 PM

36. Our education system needs to teach critical thing skills.

It seems like we've failed at that.

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Response to CaptainTruth (Reply #36)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 01:51 PM

52. Yep. Conservatives aren't about to teach kids how NOT to be fooled.

How else would they con future adults into voting for them?

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 01:22 PM

39. Logic and Debate should be required classes in public schools.


...heavy on the identification of logical fallacies, with maybe some basic statistics thrown in for good measure.

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 01:25 PM

41. ...

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 01:40 PM

47. Yes.

All things are not equal and important. DT should have been slammed by the Dems/GOP the business community, Americans and every world leader for his horrible actions on COVID. Not since Reagan and HIV has an American President been so derelict in their leadership as DT was with “it’s a hoax”, it will miracle away, disinfectants….bull💩…but he wasn’t which left a small sliver of legitimacy to what he was saying that was able to be amplified. We gave the village idiot the head seat at the table and now here we are in year 2 of a pandemic that’s had the opportunity to mutate twice now and surge with well over 830,000+ dead Americans alone. Over 5 million worldwide in ~2yrs.

As for this bull💩 “I did my own research” when I hear that I used to point out millions if not billions of doses of the vax have been given. There’s been no great die off, no 3rd arms growing out of people backs, no Zombie apocalypse… COVID on the other hand has killed millions and most of the deaths now are unvaccinated. I stopped doing this. Now I just walk away immediately.

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 01:48 PM

49. "In this age, (IGNORANT) people consider all sources of information to be equal."

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 01:49 PM

51. Now, then, and always: You Can't Fix Stupid. (nt)

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 01:56 PM

55. people consider all sources of information to be equal. They are not.

 

So what happens when real research (NIH, Lancet, NEJM) does not agree with health policy? Just an example

I was booted just before omicron from Daily Kos for posting peer-reviewed research from the NIH and NEJM that disagreed with Fauci and the safety of being around others who are vacc'd... basically because I wanted to make sure my elderly parents understood that being vaccinated themselves, they should still wear a mask and social distance even with others who are vacc'd. Was a hard case to make to those who think they are immune, even before omicron.

"How dare you challenge Fauci. He knows more than you ever would. You must be a Trumper. You have no place here." Umm, no, Fauci may use science as a basis, but policy includes science, business, politics, economy, population tendencies, and strategies to incentivize the masses to do what is needed.

If we follow REAL research, it's far more consistent over the long haul than running on a policy based on a hypothesis that has yet to prove itself out. As pointed out in many other posts here, most of the US can't even read a research paper, and relies on political party first, headlines, FB, and tweets for their "science".

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Response to YP_Yooper (Reply #55)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 02:20 PM

67. In other words

what happens in the scientific community is that when a group of scientists and/or medical professionals is presented with the identical set of data, they will rarely come to the same identical conclusions as to what that data "means".

And unfortunately those "disagreements" are playing out in real-time, in public (in the media) rather than solely during scientific collaboration/committee meetings in the obscurity of those communications channels. And this is of course causing the expected havoc of "mixed messages" experienced by the lay observers.

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #67)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 02:28 PM

68. +1000

 

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Response to YP_Yooper (Reply #55)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 08:23 PM

85. Those kind of disagreements take place at a much higher level of discussion

than what I am talking about.

I'm sorry you got booted from DKOS for posting that. I am a great fan of Fauci, but obviously other physicians and scientists have a place in the discussion. The knowledge of Covid is growing and evolving, and it depends on the input of all those highly qualified members people.

But there are a lot of people who seem to start out by distrusting the medical and scientific community on the issue of covid vaccination. They may be perfectly fine with everything else medicine has to offer, but decide to get their covid info from a media personality. And they figure Joe Rogan is right up there with Dr. Fauci, which is ridiculous.



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Response to YP_Yooper (Reply #55)

Mon Jan 3, 2022, 02:24 PM

117. Hence, The Point

I keep trying to make to my bio major sister - public health is not just studies and data. That's the starting point.

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 01:59 PM

56. If someone said to me they did their own research on vaccinations

I would ask what grade they got in their Statistical Analysis course.

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Response to Hieronymus Phact (Reply #56)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 02:38 PM

70. Well, and that makes another point.

Judgment on vaccination involves many fields of expertise... virology, immunology, epidemiology, medicine, statistics, public heath... Very few are experts in all of these.

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Response to Hieronymus Phact (Reply #56)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 07:40 PM

80. Or ask them to research Edward Jenner and smallpox vaccine.

N/T

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Response to Hieronymus Phact (Reply #56)

Mon Jan 3, 2022, 01:21 AM

97. Hehehe

 

😸

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 02:13 PM

63. Yes, you can do your own research, double blind studies, etc.

These people are welcome to do their own research, just like the FDA did. Double blind studies, strict criteria, etc.

The problem is they are equating a Facebook search with actual research.

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 02:15 PM

64. And Candace Owens is not a doctor or a public health expert.

She's an asshole and a psychopath who should not be listened to by anyone. And her rhetoric is getting people killed by the thousands.

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 02:15 PM

66. Research pays off

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 04:58 PM

72. "Liberal Media" memes gave us Both Sides overcorrection

What are people supposed to think after 40 years of the "news" equating the likes of hydroxychloroquine and bleach enemas to life saving MRNA technology.

All opinions went from being welcomed to now deemed undisputed facts on equivalent par.

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 05:14 PM

73. These people do not understand what research really means

There is no intellectual rigor whatsoever in these cursory internet searches of looking for and finding what confirms their preexisting biases.

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 07:07 PM

75. Problems

I had the first vaccine last February.
Ive come down with an irregular heart beat 2 days afterward that lasts to this day, I have not had another one. Within two weeks time of getting his vaccines my son has developed blood clots each time .
I'm not saying I don't recommend it , I'm just saying that our family may have some issues with something in the vaccine itself some kind of allergic reaction that frankly has left us all reluctant to get any other vaccines unfortunately apparently we're not the lucky ones.

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Response to MFM008 (Reply #75)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 07:29 PM

78. I'm sorry that happened.

I hope that you nd your family can stay safe without it.

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 07:18 PM

76. These same people will not hesitate to go to a hospital if there is an emergency

or like Desantis and his wife with Cancer.

If you think those people are spreading lies about the vaccine why go there got treatment for anything ?

It's becsuse of how things are politicized and these people form their identity by being seen as tough resistors .

These people are comparing themselves to jews under Nazis but at the same time many will often bring up some anti jewish conspiracy in regards to these things.

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 07:28 PM

77. I'm surprised these medical Einsteins don't march into the hospital and overthrow the doctors!

I mean, they know everything already, don't they?

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 07:31 PM

79. Research not needed, surely?

How vaccines are made and how they work is clearly established. Were, decades, centuries ago.

But this is the bit that convinced me, way back 60 years ago in high school:

Edward Jenner, smallpox vaccine, 1764:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1200696/

The mechanism that worked using deliberate infection by non-lethal cowpox as protection against lethal smallpox is now well established.
In one word: antibodies.

What do they teach in American schools? Not that obviously, and definitely not how to decide whether an internet source is legit or pure BS.
Get your act together, educators!

But if I DIDN'T want the vaccination, I could find lots of reasons why on the internet.
But the decision not to get vaccinated came first, live - or die - on YOUR decision.






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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 07:46 PM

81. these morons confuse research and education

the RESEARCH has already been done....their job is to EDUCATE THEMSELVES using CREDIBLE SOURCES

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 07:49 PM

82. Confirmation bias happens to everyone

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 08:03 PM

84. A cartoon showed an anti-vaxxer asked by his employer what religion he belong to,

after the worker sought a vaccine exemption.

The MAGAT worker replied, "I belong to a death cult!"

That sums it up. I think the cartoon was in the Week, print edition, though I can't find it on their website.

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 08:40 PM

87. My answer if someone tells me to do my own research

I tell them I don’t have time, since I figure it would take a minimum of 20 years to get through Med School, then specialize in epidemiology and read thousands of peer-reviewed articles so I could reach an informed decision - and even then I wouldn’t really trust my opinion over the experts at the NIH and CDC.

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 09:20 PM

89. Reminds me of a friend at work when we had a covid argument

I started out by saying I hadn't spent much time looking into it so I wasn't an authority, which he offered to help with as he spent "3 to four hours a day doing research". And he laid out a number of points which I looked up and fact-checked later. As it turned out every single one of the many things he told me (such as that there were no "excess deaths: in the US in 2020, and that no one had ever seen the virus) was a fabrication or an outright lie.

And it didn't take long to go through debunk them all. Of course I looked them up after the conversation, and there wasn't any point in going back and telling him that his "sources" were doing little but filling him up with shit. He's still a guy I get along with at work, but not one I'd rely on for anything meaningful. I'd say that was another blow against my faith in humanity, but that died long ago.

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 09:32 PM

90. Vaccine is proven to work to keep you out of the grave.

I have heard it all, from it changes your DNA to it will kill you.

Everything kills you and so does Covid. It's call statistics!

If you want to ensure not to go bankrupt and not to be bedridden with a tube down your throat, possibly never see anyone again, get the vaccine...

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 10:17 PM

92. I like the ones who lie about being vaccinated

they forge fake vaccine cards in red states that don't use official systems. Good luck with that. Jesus loves you. COVID is the rapture.

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Response to IronLionZion (Reply #92)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 10:43 PM

94. You can fool some of the people some of the time but you can't fool the virus.

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Sun Jan 2, 2022, 11:38 PM

96. I taught how to do research in high school...Getting the true facts with documentation is not ..EASY

I taught research papers...& all that stuff.....

Getting the truth is often difficult. Even about simple things. like ..Vaccines, Pure Water, Poverty, Homelessness, etc.
It seems so simple but is not simple.

I like to take walks in all kinds of weather.. Usually a mile...

I had a very tough time when it was -13 below and the wind chill was -50 below. (not the brightest move, but ..yes,
totally insulated and covered everywhere, many times over..)

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Mon Jan 3, 2022, 01:27 AM

98. You should respond "I've done my own research and I wish you good luck."

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Mon Jan 3, 2022, 04:49 AM

101. I did not grow up in that age

Either! How ever I learned Science and how far medicine has come in my lifetime.

I spent a week in a coma at the age of 15. The Doctor fully expected me to die. But he gave me 2 shots of penicillin, a drug that was used by the Military during WW2.

Here I am many moons later. I respect Science, listen to my Doctors. I have 2 shots and the booster!

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Mon Jan 3, 2022, 06:47 AM

102. These are twelve word that sear my heart

Speaking as a practising primary care physician in Ireland.

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Mon Jan 3, 2022, 08:09 AM

103. I fear the Scientific Method and rational debate are endangered species.

Let's hope the internet and our drift away from solid, old-fashioned core education does not allow humanity to devolve and lose our instinctive, innocent curiosity of things and desire to learn about everything.

Our instinct to play and experiment to learn throughout our lives is instinctive in both humans and animals and it requires constant face-to-face exposure to other humans and Mother Nature, not face-to-screen with a cell phone, tablet or computer.

What we're losing is our innate craving to learn, our ability to think and create independently and rationally as well as our sense of the need for human community.

My father's biggest problem with me as a child was my borrowing his tools to disassemble everything in our house just to see how they were made and to understand how stuff works. I'm not seeing that level of curiosity in our youth much these days.

About all I get these days for my old-fashioned thinking, curiosity and thoroughness is resentment. Even as an engineer (retired), I fear the direction the internet and consumerism is taking us.

KY rant done.....

Thanks for posting this important topic, Milestogo.......

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Response to milestogo (Original post)

Mon Jan 3, 2022, 10:02 AM

105. A wide streak of anti-intellectualism defines this country

It always has, but now it’s more socially acceptable to flaunt one’s ignorance than ever before.

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