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Tue Dec 28, 2021, 09:51 AM

A Big Problem With the 1/6 Coup Attempt

The attempted coup was not treated as a coup, as an attempt to overthrow our government. Wasn't taken as a coup by the MSM, but especially wasn't taken as a coup by Justice. It was looked upon as a peaceful protest turned violent, and is still being looked upon that way.

No one who was arrested inside the Capitol should have only been charged with, "entering or remaining in a restricted federal building,"
nor should any of them only been charged with "parading," nor should any of them only been charged with "demonstrating, picketing in the Capitol."

Those charges do not reveal what was going on that day, those charges hide what was going on that day and yet those are what the vast majority of people arrested that day were charged with.

To the best of my knowledge none have been indicted for "insurrection." To the best of my knowledge none have been indicted for "seditious conspiracy." To the best of my knowledge none have been arrested for "impeding the official proceedings of Congress"
although I did hear that charge was being considered.

All of this is on Justice. We have judges (except the 2 Trump appointed judges) complaining that prosecutors are not seeking stiff enough sentences. Many judges are taking it upon themselves to give stiffer sentences.

Every damn insurrectionist arrested inside the Capitol should have been charged with insurrection.

Just my 2 cents. Nothing is taken seriously if people aren't held accountable. For fuck's sake they stormed our Capitol building, ransacked it, practically demolished it, threw shit on the walls and then they are indicted for remaining in a restricted federal building, for parading, for demonstrating-picketing in the Capitol? We have a woman in Texas who was sent to jail for multiple years because she mistakenly voted at the wrong precinct. It's time for DOJ to get serious.

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Arrow 114 replies Author Time Post
Reply A Big Problem With the 1/6 Coup Attempt (Original post)
gab13by13 Dec 2021 OP
gab13by13 Dec 2021 #1
Arazi Dec 2021 #2
C_U_L8R Dec 2021 #3
OneGrassRoot Dec 2021 #4
empedocles Dec 2021 #8
OneGrassRoot Dec 2021 #10
C_U_L8R Dec 2021 #11
berni_mccoy Dec 2021 #13
gab13by13 Dec 2021 #15
Grasswire2 Dec 2021 #43
Chin music Dec 2021 #61
KPN Dec 2021 #75
Chin music Dec 2021 #105
smirkymonkey Dec 2021 #69
uponit7771 Dec 2021 #88
Chin music Dec 2021 #104
Joinfortmill Dec 2021 #34
Grasswire2 Dec 2021 #42
KPN Dec 2021 #74
uponit7771 Dec 2021 #87
malaise Jan 2022 #114
OldBaldy1701E Dec 2021 #7
gab13by13 Dec 2021 #16
erronis Dec 2021 #54
stopdiggin Dec 2021 #57
KPN Dec 2021 #77
stopdiggin Dec 2021 #84
KPN Dec 2021 #89
stopdiggin Dec 2021 #98
OldBaldy1701E Dec 2021 #109
KPN Dec 2021 #76
OldBaldy1701E Dec 2021 #110
OldBaldy1701E Dec 2021 #108
Chin music Dec 2021 #106
Bernardo de La Paz Dec 2021 #9
calimary Dec 2021 #72
gab13by13 Dec 2021 #14
smirkymonkey Dec 2021 #68
KPN Dec 2021 #78
berni_mccoy Dec 2021 #5
Ferrets are Cool Dec 2021 #50
HAB911 Dec 2021 #6
TheRickles Dec 2021 #12
CommonHumanity Dec 2021 #17
gab13by13 Dec 2021 #19
Rabrrrrrr Dec 2021 #29
stopdiggin Dec 2021 #59
smirkymonkey Dec 2021 #70
gab13by13 Dec 2021 #18
msfiddlestix Dec 2021 #38
Grasswire2 Dec 2021 #44
uponit7771 Dec 2021 #90
bringthePaine Dec 2021 #20
MissMillie Dec 2021 #21
gab13by13 Dec 2021 #22
stopdiggin Dec 2021 #60
KPN Dec 2021 #79
stopdiggin Dec 2021 #99
KPN Dec 2021 #100
stopdiggin Dec 2021 #102
KPN Dec 2021 #103
Mad_Machine76 Dec 2021 #23
hadEnuf Dec 2021 #53
Mr. Ected Dec 2021 #24
gab13by13 Dec 2021 #30
Mr. Ected Dec 2021 #40
KPN Dec 2021 #80
uponit7771 Dec 2021 #91
CaptainTruth Dec 2021 #25
pnwmom Dec 2021 #62
fwvinson Dec 2021 #26
gab13by13 Dec 2021 #32
erronis Dec 2021 #55
DallasNE Dec 2021 #27
Mr.Bill Dec 2021 #28
gab13by13 Dec 2021 #31
msfiddlestix Dec 2021 #93
LoisB Dec 2021 #33
pnwmom Dec 2021 #64
Qutzupalotl Dec 2021 #35
msfiddlestix Dec 2021 #39
Qutzupalotl Dec 2021 #41
Grasswire2 Dec 2021 #45
msfiddlestix Dec 2021 #48
Qutzupalotl Dec 2021 #52
Qutzupalotl Dec 2021 #51
uponit7771 Dec 2021 #92
KPN Dec 2021 #83
Dan Dec 2021 #36
Grasswire2 Dec 2021 #46
Chin music Dec 2021 #107
DLevine Dec 2021 #37
gulliver Dec 2021 #47
IzzaNuDay Dec 2021 #49
erronis Dec 2021 #56
ShazamIam Dec 2021 #58
pnwmom Dec 2021 #63
DeeNice Dec 2021 #94
Solly Mack Dec 2021 #65
KPN Dec 2021 #85
Solly Mack Dec 2021 #96
KPN Dec 2021 #97
Justice matters. Dec 2021 #66
Duppers Dec 2021 #67
CrankyMa Dec 2021 #71
msfiddlestix Dec 2021 #95
CrankyMa Jan 2022 #113
uponit7771 Dec 2021 #101
modrepub Dec 2021 #73
Name removed Dec 2021 #81
MissB Dec 2021 #82
kentuck Dec 2021 #86
RANDYWILDMAN Dec 2021 #111
calimary Dec 2021 #112

Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 09:59 AM

1. One more damn thing,

Every one of those insurrectionists should have been charged with "impeding the proceeding of Congress," a serious felony, because you know what, that's exactly what every one of them did.

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 10:03 AM

2. K&R

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 10:03 AM

3. The insurrection plot was so complete, it even had promo swag

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Response to C_U_L8R (Reply #3)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 10:10 AM

4. THIS. n/t

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Response to OneGrassRoot (Reply #4)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 10:35 AM

8. Biden, Pelosi, et al have known this for a long time.

They know the importance of Linoln's 'public sentimet'. They have deliberately not shown their full hands. An early trump Justice indictment would have been hazardous - to say the least.

The informed, are unfolding this horror story over time.

This educational process is happening.

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Response to empedocles (Reply #8)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 10:39 AM

10. I desperately hope so...

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Response to empedocles (Reply #8)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 10:39 AM

11. Indeed. There is a method. And the GOP will pay the price.

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Response to empedocles (Reply #8)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 10:40 AM

13. Poppycock!

 

You don’t educate the American people by failing to prosecute those who would destroy it.

You educate them by going after them to set an example so no one else in your lifetime contemplates trying it again.

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #13)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 10:50 AM

15. Amen, and time is growing short.

Still waiting for Garland to appoint that special counsel just like Barr appointed John Durham.

As Claire McCaskill said yesterday, DOJ should not be waiting for the select committee to give them criminal referrals, it should be acting on its own. Claire saw the writing on the wall and changed her tune.

We can't let this go, pressure needs to be put on Garland to act now.

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #13)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 03:26 PM

43. DETERRENCE is required -- and it's not being introduced as a concept.

"Look forward, not back" as a strategy has brought us where we are today.

If Stone and Rove and the other bad actors had been hammered by the law years ago, people who want to walk outside the law might have some respect for it and re-consider.

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Response to Grasswire2 (Reply #43)


Response to Grasswire2 (Reply #43)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 09:21 AM

75. Exactly. It seems "look forward not back" is modern time's

equivalent of Nero fiddling while Rome burns.

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Response to KPN (Reply #75)


Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #13)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 03:42 AM

69. +1000

 

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #13)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 10:04 AM

88. Yep, nothing says "no big deal" like not knowing if DOJ will hold people accountable for crimes

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #88)


Response to empedocles (Reply #8)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 12:50 PM

34. 👍

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Response to empedocles (Reply #8)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 03:23 PM

42. the clock is ticking -- approaching midnight for democracy.

We don't have time to gently educate the populace.

Every day they aren't in solitary confinement with a gag order, the plotters are moving ahead toward their goals.

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Response to empedocles (Reply #8)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 09:18 AM

74. Sigh. I sincerely hope this isn't delusional. All evidence

thus far in holding anyone in TFGs orbit meaningfully accountable for any of his criminal acts against democracy says otherwise.

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Response to empedocles (Reply #8)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 10:01 AM

87. Then we've lost, we're great at showing how horrible we are at garnering sentiment. We need to hire

... outside help on this

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Response to empedocles (Reply #8)

Sat Jan 1, 2022, 06:22 PM

114. THIS! N/t

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Response to C_U_L8R (Reply #3)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 10:34 AM

7. And that should be the straw that broke the camel's back.

Every single person wearing any apparel with such statements, regardless of whether or not they entered the building, should have already spent time in a cell, made to explain their seditious propaganda, and shown that we do not put up with this. AT ALL. This is no different than yelling 'FIRE!" in a crowded theater. And, that is very illegal!

But, here we sit. All of you who keep demanding 'patience' and saying that we don't know what is gong on and that things will become 'sugar and nuts' again soon... I hope you are correct.

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Response to OldBaldy1701E (Reply #7)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 10:51 AM

16. I fear that Occam's Razor applies here.

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Response to OldBaldy1701E (Reply #7)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 08:45 PM

54. Oh, come on. So now we can jail anybody that wears clothing that offends you?

All the hippies of the 60's/70's would be in jail. With what charge? For how long?

Germany has actually passed laws that allow prosecution of people that say certain things - mainly to combat continued nazi language. I would welcome some clear language like that in our laws, but I don't thing we agree what it is.

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Response to erronis (Reply #54)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 09:04 PM

57. +1. it wouldn't hurt to think a little bit ... -(nt)-

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Response to stopdiggin (Reply #57)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 09:34 AM

77. Thinking about what? This reminds me of the old

joke: don’t just do something, stand there. Meanwhile we are woefully near a precipice with no evidence or history of meaningful accountability. Shakes head.

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Response to KPN (Reply #77)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 09:57 AM

84. so you're OK with jailing people that wear T-shirts

with offensive (to you) messages? That's real well thought out. And deplorable.

But certainly "thinking outside the box!"

----- --- --- -----

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Response to stopdiggin (Reply #84)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 10:05 AM

89. Lol. Nobody here said jail people who wore that shirt because they wore it.

Talk about

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Response to KPN (Reply #89)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 04:18 PM

98. you might want to reread the post (#54) that I responded to

and then #7, that they responded to, and originating the string. I think you'll find words presenting something pretty near exactly that (T-shirt) argument. You then appeared to have a problem with me agreeing with the #54 post. So - I'm not sure what my takeaway should have been ....
----- -----
I think I'll go back to my original line. Perhaps a little less rhetoric - and a little more thinking is in order.

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Response to KPN (Reply #89)

Thu Dec 30, 2021, 07:00 PM

109. Oh no, that is exactly what I said.

Because they clearly show inside information as to how this 'freedom march' was going to play out before they even arrived at the Capitol steps. What I did not suggest is that everyone on the planet wearing anything I find personally offensive should be locked away forever. Which is what a few on here are implying that I am trying to advocate.

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Response to erronis (Reply #54)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 09:26 AM

76. Uncommon problems require uncommon solutions.

Thinking inside the box will be our downfall if it continues.

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Response to KPN (Reply #76)

Thu Dec 30, 2021, 07:03 PM

110. The desire to remain anywhere near that box is. (n/t)

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Response to erronis (Reply #54)

Thu Dec 30, 2021, 06:56 PM

108. This has nothing to do with being offended.

This has to do with an attempted insurrection and the fact that there were people wearing apparel that not only shows participation, but shows premeditation as well. If one were seen wearing an "I love hot Rolexes!" shirt while waking down the street after a big Rolex heist happened five minutes before in the same neighborhood, you are telling me we should just ignore that person? I did not say arrest everyone with 'MAGA' apparel, which I do find slightly offensive as it indicates a decidedly dangerous and traitorous inclination as far as I am concerned. I am saying that anyone with shirts that plainly show intent of action and then that action is what happened demands some further investigation, and also requires a preemptive move to insure compliance with said investigation.

Also, clear language does not allow much institutional abuse, which is why plenty of laws at various levels are very vague in description of offense, even as they describe the punishment in major detail.

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Response to OldBaldy1701E (Reply #7)


Response to C_U_L8R (Reply #3)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 10:39 AM

9. ... and multiple "war rooms", not simply just one. . . . nt

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Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #9)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 06:46 AM

72. THIS!

What did they need multiple war rooms for? A Monopoly tournament?

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Response to C_U_L8R (Reply #3)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 10:43 AM

14. It's a big fat joke to most of them.

What about the woman who jokes about going to jail for 30 days to learn yoga to lose weight, and to stop drinking. Would it have been a joke if she were sentenced to 3 or 4 years?

They post on social media bragging about being at the Capitol on 1/6, as if it were something like my posting about being at Woodstock.

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Response to C_U_L8R (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 03:41 AM

68. If that isn't damning, I don't know what is.

 

FFS, this was such a blatant attempt at insurrection. How is this still not being taken seriously. I really can't get my mind around it. You know that if Democrats had pulled this same shit it would have been dealt with harshly back in March.

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Response to smirkymonkey (Reply #68)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 09:37 AM

78. Yup. All the librul antifas would be incarcerated for months already with many months or years

ahead of them. Maybe worse.

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 10:31 AM

5. The DOJ's ignorance on this is a travesty.

 

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #5)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 08:15 PM

50. I don't believe ignorance is the word.

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 10:31 AM

6. A grand mistake we may not survive

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 10:40 AM

12. Good reframe. Thanks.

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 10:58 AM

17. why weren't insurrectionist arrested on site?

Why were the insurrectionist not arrested on the spot? Based on my personal experience, it seems the customary thing to do. I am guessing it was because law enforcement presence was held back by the slob father and there was not enough law enforcement to cart everyone off then and there?

I have been arrested on the spot for non-violent civil disobedience on numerous occasions and the insurrection was clearly not non-violent. Years ago I was arrested during a non-violent civil disobedience protest on the steps of the pentagon. I can't remember the details of why the arrest was warranted. We were arrested right away, taken to a holding area in an underground parking lot, and then held in a gymnasium overnight. From there we were sent to jail and then bused to court.

Please don't anyone respond in a condescending way with legal information or "duh". I HATE it when DU people belittle other people for asking questions.

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Response to CommonHumanity (Reply #17)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 11:02 AM

19. I think that your own reason is the answer,

law enforcement was overwhelmed. Your question was quite appropriate, I'm a nobody, but I wondered the same thing.

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Response to CommonHumanity (Reply #17)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 12:14 PM

29. I want to know why the hallways didn't run red with the blood of the insurrectionists.

If they'd have been black or Muslim, we would have piles of dead. But they were white, so the guards took it far easier on them than they should have.

And had the guards opened fire and killed a bunch, they would only have been doing what Republicans constantly say they want: law and order, personal responsibility, and "don't listen to cops and get shot? That's your fault."

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Response to Rabrrrrrr (Reply #29)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 09:16 PM

59. oh, well there's a really swell idea!

I know! Let's just do a Tianamen Square! Then we'll all feel so much better!

(I know this is a place for expressing opinion - but, really ... )

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Response to CommonHumanity (Reply #17)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 03:44 AM

70. +1000

 

Excellent question. Frustrating that we don't have an answer.

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 10:59 AM

18. 2 or 3 weeks ago,

Merrick Garland appeared before a Senate committee. He was there to discuss DOJ getting involved with local law enforcement to prevent the verbal attacks and verbal threats being carried out against school board members and election officials.

Did anyone here watch that hearing?

The Republican Senators jumped all over Garland accusing him of restricting the Magat's freedom of speech. The way I viewed the hearing, Mr. Garland did all but apologize to those Senators by making the point that DOJ was only going to make suggestions to local law enforcement, that to me was scary, and telling.

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Response to gab13by13 (Reply #18)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 01:00 PM

38. This report both saddens and frightens me


I'm all at once deeply saddened, frustrated, anxious, frightened, dismayed and feeling helpless.

No, I missed that hearing, and now I'm grateful but thank you for the report. We needed to know.

I had caught hearings with Garland early on pre and post confirmation. His mild manner demeanor reminded me of Mueller's final appearance before Congress. Did not leave me with a sense of confidence at the time.

I could only hope my perceptions were off base, premature, wrong.

I'm not religious, but I pray to the universe to indicate unequivocally that my perceptions were indeed off base, and that actions or evidence of actions is revealed very quickly.









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Response to gab13by13 (Reply #18)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 03:30 PM

44. I wonder if we can find footage of that

I'm sickened at the thought of him cowed.

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Response to gab13by13 (Reply #18)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 10:07 AM

90. ffffffuck,

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 11:08 AM

20. not too late for that charging, I don't think...

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 11:18 AM

21. I think the biggest problem is that it's not over yet

The gerrymandering and the voter suppression laws... this thing isn't over by a long-shot.

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Response to MissMillie (Reply #21)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 11:31 AM

22. With little accountability,

it only grew, didn't it?

Our DOJ should have stopped the Cyber Ninjas in Arizona, they violated both state and federal laws. Ballots, voter information, election material and equipment were turned over to pro-Trump people and were supposed to remain in the custody of election officials.

With only a stern letter from DOJ the fraudits continued across the country where the pro-Trump people fired honest election officials and replaced them with Magats.

It is a lot harder to abolish those discriminatory election/voter laws once they have been enacted.

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Response to gab13by13 (Reply #22)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 09:22 PM

60. elections are still primarily a state process and province

and thus mostly governed by state election law. I'm not sure on what level the DOJ would be entering the AZ fray.

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Response to stopdiggin (Reply #60)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 09:44 AM

79. Oh come on. There were so many transgressions of normal election

standards as required by law to ensure fair, secure and accurate vote counts. The State intentionally violated its own regulations and law!

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Response to KPN (Reply #79)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 04:39 PM

99. So who prosecutes violation of state law?

Oh,wait ... That would be the people who ...

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Response to stopdiggin (Reply #99)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 05:51 PM

100. You wrongly assumed I was talking State laws.

You won’t convince me — so why put any energy into it. I’m going to express my concerns because they are legitimate and their expression is part of the overall dynamic that achieves results — silence, faith and hope do not guarantee anything.

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Response to KPN (Reply #100)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 08:20 PM

102. if you don't want to address the points in my post

why respond?
Your words 1) "The State intentionally violated its own regulations and law!"
Your words 2) "You wrongly assumed I was talking State laws."

At this point, I've given up assuming anything regarding your posts, or the points you are trying to address.

Have a good day! ---- ---- ----

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Response to stopdiggin (Reply #102)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 09:54 PM

103. You are right. I misspoke -- what I typed was not what I was

attempting to say. Basically, the States are violating the Constitution and federal law intentionally. They are at a minimum testing our will to forcefully reject and enforce their overt efforts to bend commonly accepted as well as previously upheld federal electoral rights and standards via forceful enforcement and strengthening federal election law. The DOJ has a clear role in protecting voter rights by enforcing federal law. It’s not the sole responsibility of individual States, especially relative to Presidential and Congressional elections.

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 11:32 AM

23. Remember when Republicans were insistent about Benghazi

being a coordinated terrorist attack instead of a protest that became violent, inflamed by an evangelical preacher's depictions of Muhammed?

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Response to Mad_Machine76 (Reply #23)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 08:32 PM

53. And the Republicans could never offer any evidence, let alone prove a damn thing

after endless hearings and investigations.

The evidence for 1/6 was broadcast on live TV and is overwhelming. New facts are revealed about who planned and participated daily. Caught red-handed doesn't even begin to explain it.

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 11:32 AM

24. Our 2-party system almost guarantees that prosecution

Will be seen by half the electorate as a political witch hunt.

Well, together with a media that either perpetuates that myth or actively peddles it.

While they segregate their people, call them patriots and ostracize liberals, they project that stench on Democrats as well, which is patently untrue.

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Response to Mr. Ected (Reply #24)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 12:28 PM

30. It absolutely does not matter,

If the facts warrant it, justice must be served, politics be damned.

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Response to gab13by13 (Reply #30)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 02:05 PM

40. Well, of course, hard to call yourself a country based on rule of law

When the laws can so easily be sidestepped by the very people that should be policing them.

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Response to Mr. Ected (Reply #24)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 09:46 AM

80. Not an excuse for relative inaction against an attempted

coup.

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Response to Mr. Ected (Reply #24)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 10:08 AM

91. We still have to do the right, regardless

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 11:41 AM

25. Good points, but there's an error in your OP.

You say none have been arrested for "impeding the official proceedings of Congress"

Yes, they have been charged with that, & just a short while ago (last week?) a judge ruled the charge was applicable. At the time I noted it set a precedent for everyone else charged, & created a possible path for going after Trump, & several folks in the legal profession noted the same.

Let me see if I can find it... ah... here it is:

Government Wins Key Ruling on Issue Affecting Hundreds of Capitol Riot Cases

On Friday, Dec. 10, the government won a key early ruling concerning a legal issue affecting hundreds of Jan. 6 Capitol Riot prosecutions.

U.S. District Judge Dabney Friedrich found that a central felony charge in a large subset of the Jan. 6 cases—“corruptly obstructing an official proceeding” —had been properly invoked and was not unconstitutionally vague. The provision has been lodged against about 270 of the more than 690 Capitol Riot defendants accused so far in federal court (about 40 percent of all cases).

[link:https://www.lawfareblog.com/government-wins-key-ruling-issue-affecting-hundreds-capitol-riot-cases-0|]

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Response to CaptainTruth (Reply #25)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 12:32 AM

62. Since then multiple other judges have upheld the charges, ruling it was an official proceeding.nt

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 11:54 AM

26. I have a strong feeling

 

that the Democrats are wanting this to play out as a campaign issue. A trial of tRump in September thru ?.
I am hoping they know what they are doing.

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Response to fwvinson (Reply #26)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 12:30 PM

32. You should seriously think about deleting that post, just a suggestion.

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Response to fwvinson (Reply #26)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 08:50 PM

55. It's always good to get a statement from the not loyal opposition

26. I have a strong feeling
that the Democrats are wanting this to play out as a campaign issue. A trial of tRump in September thru ?.
I am hoping they know what they are doing.

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 12:01 PM

27. Does Anyone Really Believe

That if the rioters would have found Mike Pence and Noancy Pelosi that either would be alive today? We call that attempted murder. not trespassing.

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Response to DallasNE (Reply #27)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 12:13 PM

28. If an angry violent mob

climbed through broken windows at Mar-a-Lago screaming "Hang Donald Trump!", they would be shot and killed.

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Response to Mr.Bill (Reply #28)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 12:29 PM

31. and the ones who didn't die would be in jail for a long time.

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Response to Mr.Bill (Reply #28)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 11:07 AM

93. And the shooting and killing of invaders would have been perfectly legal

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 12:46 PM

33. AMEN!!!! HEAR, HEAR!!! STANDING OVATION!!!

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Response to LoisB (Reply #33)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 12:38 AM

64. Except at least 4 judges have upheld charges on obstruction of an official proceeding,

which carries a significant sentence and could even apply to Trump, if he assisted or promoted this.

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 12:51 PM

35. Although the crime seems obvious to us,

the DOJ likely needs more information to charge insurrection. Specifically, they need testimony before a court that assailants believe Trump “ordered” them to charge the Capitol. To get that information, the DOJ needed their cooperation, which I believe was given in exchange for these reduced sentences we're seeing. There have been reports of a few insurrectionists saying just that, that Trump sent them. The DOJ could not just charge Trump without that crucial evidence. They cannot afford to fail. Better to go slowly and do it right.

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Response to Qutzupalotl (Reply #35)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 01:03 PM

39. DOJ needs more evidence?



:sigh:

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Response to msfiddlestix (Reply #39)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 02:12 PM

41. Yes. An assertion by a prosecutor is not enough.

Confessions by the foot soldiers, all swearing in court that Trump sent them, are.

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Response to Qutzupalotl (Reply #41)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 03:35 PM

45. I believe that evidence exists, in spades, on social media of the day.

On all the various platforms.

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Response to Grasswire2 (Reply #45)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 03:56 PM

48. all the evidence needed was televised

have to have heads buried deeply in sand not to notice or recognize it our collective faces, eyes, ears and a lot of vocal and written confirmations.

man o man.

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Response to msfiddlestix (Reply #48)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 08:26 PM

52. All we need was televised

but to charge insurrection and not just obstruction, the DOJ needs more: Trump's intent and testimony of foot soldiers willing to say Trump sent them. See my post below this.

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Response to Grasswire2 (Reply #45)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 08:23 PM

51. it does, but to charge insurrection,

we need more than just video evidence. We need to know Trump's intent — which the committee can glean from documents and texts — and we need testimony of people who say they were sent by Trump, that they believe he ordered them to attack, and they were acting according to his wishes. You will recall he chose his words carefully that day. Those are his mob instincts kicking in.

If we don't get that testimony, all we'll ever be able to charge is lower-level stuff, obstructing Congress, trespassing, disorderly conduct, etc. We can do much better than that, and I believe they are preparing a bigger case than what the foot soldiers are getting. I'm basing that on reports about one or more insurrectionists, that they are fingering Trump, saying he sent them. A few of them feel betrayed. That's a good sign they might have flipped, or will soon.

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Response to msfiddlestix (Reply #39)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 10:10 AM

92. They've proceeded in the past with less

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Response to Qutzupalotl (Reply #35)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 09:51 AM

83. Perhaps this shouldn't even be in civil courts. What happened on

January 6 was an attack on the sovereignty of the existing US government. The attackers were enemies of the nation and should be treated as such.

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 12:53 PM

36. I don't like saying this, but this is what I believe.

The Justice system is treating them like ‘good white people’.

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Response to Dan (Reply #36)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 03:36 PM

46. As in letting Bannon turn himself in after the weekend and be released with no bond.

Treated like a gentleman, instead of the filthy treasonous ruffian he is and admits to being.

He's still broadcasting on his podcast.

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Response to Grasswire2 (Reply #46)


Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 12:53 PM

37. K&R

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 03:44 PM

47. The people who breached the Capitol are just flakes, stooges, and (some) psychos

The people (as Liz Cheney accused Jordan) who "fucking did this," are the ones who are the threat. They need to be forcibly removed from every government office. If you can't get them under criminal law, there's a higher power, the vote. Vote every single Republican out of every single office in every single election.

The DOJ's role shouldn't be a distraction from our nuclear weapon, the vote. If the Republicans felt a vote tsunami of righteous wrath heading their way, they'd dump Trump in a millisecond. They don't feel that. They should.

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 07:03 PM

49. Had this happened in a previous century,

There would have been prisons built on the DC Mall as a temporary holding area. And a special scaffolding with nooses to hang the convicted. (They did that **** — at least the scaffolding, mass hanging Native Americans for far less crimes)

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Response to IzzaNuDay (Reply #49)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 08:53 PM

56. As we did post WWII with some Axis prisoners. Not publicized but rapid justice.

I don't think that's what we really want in a open/democratic society. But that idealistic society is not what we have.

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Tue Dec 28, 2021, 09:05 PM

58. The media just gave you a mostly peaceful Xmas, just return to normal life, don't waste any time

worrying about the coup attempt, don't worry about the attack against our government, an attempt to nullify the U.S. Constitution.

The media is perpetuating it claiming Biden is unpopular and constantly repeating how Republicans reject the legitimacy of the Biden presidency, presenting it as all just a normal end to a U.S. Election.

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 12:34 AM

63. You should start following Empty Wheel. She has named several judges who are upholding charges

of impeding an official proceeding, involving dozens of defendants.

https://www.emptywheel.net/2021/12/28/judge-tim-kelly-releases-opinion-on-obstruction-affecting-as-many-as-two-dozen-proud-boys/

Judge Tim Kelly released his order denying Ethan Nordean’s motion to dismiss the Proud Boys’ conspiracy indictment, a challenge largely focused on DOJ’s application of the obstruction statute to January 6 (here’s my Twitter thread on the opinion). The opinion cites Dabney Friedrich’s opinion in Sandlin seven times, Amit Mehta’s opinion in Caldwell three times, and Tim McFadden’s opinion in Couy Griffin (on one of the trespassing charges) ten times, suggesting that DC District judges (three of them Trump appointees) are coming to a consensus approving the way DOJ has charged these January 6 cases.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #63)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 11:41 AM

94. +1

I agree, EW is a great source of info and analysis, from the perspective of knowledgeable people in national security.

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 01:16 AM

65. There was a multi-tiered plot, there was planning, there were armed people intent on attacking

the U.S government.

Congress is part of the U.S. government and an attack on Congress is an attack on the government of America.

The attack was violent. The attack was deadly. The attack was armed.

Be it stick, rock, or flagpole - when used to harm another, you are armed.

Anything you pick up along the way to use as a weapon while engaging in a forceful takeover is you being armed.

By their words of violence - kill the Vice-President, kill the Speaker of the House (both in the immediate line of succession) - coupled with their actions to take control of the Capitol through force and violence shows their intent in doing exactly what they did.

Their motive was to stop the legal certification of a legal election that was legally won by Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.

They wanted to buy time, force the issue, and help install the loser of a legitimate election back into office.

Trump was ready to act in the event things went his way.

Members of Congress, in both the House and the Senate, were ready to act if events went their way.

Just because a coup attempt fails doesn't mean there wasn't intent to commit one.

Prior to January 6th, 2021, Trump, members of his administration - both current and former - as well as members of Congress, republican pundits, republican "news" services and personalities, and assorted other right-wing talking heads and groups, to include lawyers and big-money donors, all came together to promote and finance the lie that Trump won the election and that the Democratic Party stole it from him.

All of those people were engaged in Sedition. They were riling their followers up and inciting them to act against the U.S. government.

The resulting violence shows their words were not merely hyperbolic or a matter of exercising their right to free speech.

They showed intent.

The more we learn, the more we know there was a plot to displace the legitimate winners of the election - Biden/Harris - and reinstate the outgoing, lame-duck president - Trump.

This plot involves the office of the President, his administration, and members of Congress - people who have taken an oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States.

All of them used the power of their office, their access to the Press and through official social media accounts, to incite their supporters to engage in violence against the U.S. government as part of the larger plan to stage a coup.

Such could easily be defined as committing treason because what the videos before and on January 6th - and the constant incitement across all forms of media before, during, and after - show us is that they were intent on waging war against the U.S. government and its election process.

That some of the plotters were members of government themselves in no way means they couldn't also wage war against the government. Nor does it excuse their actions.

With Trump as their leader, members of Congress as their Generals, and an army of insurrectionists ready to take control of Congress - to hunt down and kill the Vice-President and the Speaker of the House - they all came together for the purpose of, and to achieve their goal, in overturning a legal election.

This was a multi-level effort, with various groups of people actually plotting and planning to take control of Congress, to install the losing candidate as President.

There were varying levels of involvement by different groups of people but all with the same goal.

Sedition, Treason, failed coup, insurrection?

Yes - all of the above.

Different groups of people at different points in time are guilty of one or the other, with some guilty of two or more - depending on the actions they engaged in before and on January 6th.

But all of them had the same intent, the same goal.

They were a threat to America on January 6, 2021.

They are a threat to America still.

And they should all be treated as such.

To pretend otherwise is to invite greater violence and harm to the country, its people, and our government.






































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Response to Solly Mack (Reply #65)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 09:59 AM

85. I agree 100%. We will fail and fall if we continue to treat this

event within the usual norms. The event itself was far outside those norms.

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Response to KPN (Reply #85)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 01:10 PM

96. Downplaying what took place is no different than those who claim Covid-19 is no worse

than the yearly flu.

You can't treat the problem if you choose to minimize the problem. If you choose to ignore the scope and danger of the problem.

I know they are fellow citizens and I know you can't truly kill an idea. But it's one thing to believe something and quite another to promote those beliefs through a violent attack on the government.

This wasn't civil disobedience where they wanted their voices heard, with a demand for action to be taken by government to right a wrong within the system.

This was an intentional attack, a violent attack, on our system of government, to overturn and a free and fair election. This attack came from inside our government and outside of government.

The insurrectionists and the Trump plotters were not working within the system to reach their intended goal. They were attempting to destroy the system to achieve it.

I don't know how it will all eventually play out, or who will eventually end up in prison, but I do know it starts with acknowledging the magnitude of what took place and charging all those involved accordingly.

Otherwise, we are going to be left with yet another "Lost Cause" bubble of lies and distortions that will be as equally dangerous as the original.





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Response to Solly Mack (Reply #96)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 02:25 PM

97. Exactly ... and well said.

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 01:32 AM

66. There will be public heaings and all the evidence will be exposed before

criminal referrals will be given to the DOJ. We got this Charges can be added.

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 03:11 AM

67. Bravo !! K&R

Bookmarking & sending out.

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 04:01 AM

71. Don't get discouraged

Last edited Wed Dec 29, 2021, 05:39 AM - Edit history (1)

The conspiracy portion of this J6 event is still in the works. Some of these bad guys have as many as six superseding indictments. That means a new Grand Jury had to meet and decide if new charges would be recommended and decided "yes" as many as six times. GWU is keeping a list of who has been charged and how their cases are going here: https://extremism.gwu.edu/Capitol-Hill-Cases

Most of the folks who have been processed already, such as the college student Gracyn Dawn Courtright who had never voted and didn't know the difference between the White House and the Congressional building, are "low hanging fruit" and relatively easy cases to prosecute: https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/crime/2021/12/17/former-university-kentucky-student-gracyn-courtright-sentenced-capitol-riot-case/6355152001/ .

Here is her sentencing agreement for the curious: https://extremism.gwu.edu/sites/g/files/zaxdzs2191/f/Gracyn%20Courtright%20Plea%20Agreement.pdf
This is appropriate for her as she's just a dum-dum who got caught up in something she didn't understand.

But entering the Capitol wasn't just a "mistake" on her part. The crowd was led with some planning by the militia groups. For example, Alex Jones told the crowd on the west side of the building that Trump was going to speak on the east side (not true) to get some of the crowd to move over there. Once part of the crowd got moved to the east side, they got physically shepherded up the steps by militia folks for "cover". That took planning.

Others, such as Matthew Greene, are medium ticket offenders. Greene was fairly new to the political process having been recruited into the Proud Boys about 4 months before the Capitol riot.

Greene's statement of offense https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/press-release/file/1458266/download says that he 'intended to intimidate government personnel to affect the outcome of an election.' This is a terrorism charge dressed up in "nice" language and is being used to squeeze Greene- and it's working.

Greene has reached a plea agreement https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/press-release/file/1458261/download to turn evidence that's quite harsh and may require him to seek refuge in the Witness Protection Program. His plea agreement says, among other things, that he can apply for witness protection but there is no guarantee he will be accepted. That's gotta be pretty scary for him- not having a guarantee of protection- but he's taking the deal anyway. He has to give up a lot with no guarantees. He really has no choice. As a new but enthusiastic recruit, he really doesn't have much loyalty to the group if that loyalty means a terrorism charge and a long prison term.


The big ticket offenders on the GWU list are the ones with 5 and 6 superseding indictments and they are the ones looking at conspiracy charges with possible terrorism enhancements. There are about 16 of those in the works. They are mostly from the groups the Proud Boys, the Oath Keepers, and I think there are a couple of Three percenters in there as well.


Enrique Tarrio, who was the leader of the Proud Boys, is thanking God every day that he got popped by the cops the night before the riot and wasn't physically present although he is still in jail for the burning of the BLM flag and illegal gun magazines (he gets out in January). But he's not "safe" either because not only is he implicated in the planning of the attack (see Greens documents. It's likely Tarrio who was supposed to get the secure radio communication set these guys were using to coordinate their movements that day but Tarrio got busted the night before with illegal magazines and for the BLM flag burning so was required to leave DC that night). It's also been revealed that Tarrio was an FBI informant for several years. That's not going to go over well with his militia buddies.

Who wants to take a bet that this Proud Boy Leader/FBI informant's arrest and removal from DC the night before the big event was just a coincidence? Not me!


These militia folks were in contact with and planned actions with each other (conspiracy)before and during the riot and they were quite likely to have been in contact with some political figures as well. This is where what is publicly know dries up. The investigators have to document the lines between folks like Tarrio, Roger Stone, Alex Jones (Joe Biggs's friend), the couple of named politicians and eventually to Trump. That takes time and evidence. Trump, who famously doesn't email or text, may think he's protected because he doesn't have any email or text evidence but he does use his phone and his aids like Mark Meadows. When the shit really hits the fan, nobody really wants to go to prison for someone else's crimes and will turn evidence to get their best deal- even if that deal isn't all that great, like Greene is doing.


If you look at the GWU list, some "big names" don't have a lot of information available. See Joe Biggs for example. Biggs is also a Proud Boy leader but there is only one document under his name, a charging document. He was also a Proud Boy leader, at the riot, and entered the Capitol building. You would think he would be one of the guys with several superseding indictments but he's not. There's a reason for that. We don't know what the reason is at this time but the smart money says that he's also turning evidence... and that he has a lot of evidence.

AND some names are completely missing from the list. Tarrio is missing. That's odd. He's certainly easy to find. He's right there in the DC jail.

And the antifa group no-showed this event all together. Somehow they knew it was a set-up.

Sometimes what is not in the news is as or even more interesting as what is!

And don't forget that none of these militia creeps will ever be able to own a gun again.

CA



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Response to CrankyMa (Reply #71)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 11:55 AM

95. Excellent read and summation. This helps a great deal, important contribution

I feel a lot better informed, therefore less mystified, and less discouraged by a significant degree.

Enrique Tarrio's case had me befuddled because when it was revealed that he was already an informant, I couldn't understand why significant action hadn't been taken right away.

And for me Biggs was key, but never seeing reporting on charges/indictments. I like others are eagerly awaiting justice to proceed.

Interesting Tarrio's name is missing from GWU's list, yes that's odd.

I wasn't aware of GWU was documenting.


Your contributions including analysis and organizational style of laying the larger and smaller outlines, details is extremely valuable to me. This post is worthy of it's own OP . I highly encourage you to post it! I think it help tremendously.


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Response to msfiddlestix (Reply #95)

Sat Jan 1, 2022, 06:11 PM

113. Thank you... and an update.. more

Thanks so much for your nice comment. I hesitate to make this a stand alone post because I'm not a lawyer or anything like that. This post is just my semi-informed opinion based on news reports and legal documents I see.

I do have an update though: The DOJ has an 'end-of-year' report out on the Jan 6 attack. I was very surprised to see that the DOJ is reporting that 40 people have been charged with conspiracy! I thought it was just about 16 or so.

This is what a mean by "semi-informed".

But thank you for your supportive comment.
Perhaps I will make it a stand-alone post. Perhaps others who are interested could share their ideas and links too. I'd like that.

The DOJ report: https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/one-year-jan-6-attack-capitol

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Response to CrankyMa (Reply #71)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 06:02 PM

101. hmmm, "... Proud Boy Leader/FBI informant's arrest and removal from DC..." Okay, makes me

... think there's way more to this than meets the eye ... ok.

I'll give the alphabet crew a few more months but Rosenberg is right ... if there was an investigation going on the lawless GQP would be speaking out on getting questioned by the alphabet crew by now.

We'll see

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 08:05 AM

73. The Jokes On Them (Rioters)

By the sounds of it, TFG's minions had a plan to delay the Electoral College tally by actions of Republican members of Congress. The plan was to get enough members to protest the closest state results where Republicans held the legislature so Pence wouldn't count them in the final tally giving TFG a plurality. Then have those states left out would have their state legislatures throw out the vote and send in their own slate of delegates to flip to TFG. All the while, the right-wing media would sow doubt on the final tallies and create a 3 ring circus, which no doubt TFG would have taken full advantage of to crush any opponents.

The rioters put a wrench into all of this and Pence and Congress finished their work ASAFP (because who knows what would have happened if either the House or Senate adjourned).

I think this plan was a real stretch. Would the states in question actually throw out the vote in favor of their own prejudices? IDK to be honest. If this had happened, I would have supported a nation-wide strike and probably joined in any protest to over ride the vote in my state. It could have been ugly for sure.

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)


Response to Name removed (Reply #81)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 09:49 AM

82. I think you took a wrong turn somewhere

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Wed Dec 29, 2021, 10:01 AM

86. Should people that break the law be held accountable?

Simple as that. Yes or No?

A question all Americans should have to answer.

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Thu Dec 30, 2021, 07:08 PM

111. This shit show has been badly enabled and the M$M is too blame, big time.

Stop the steal= lie your ass off

For 5 years NOBODY in the msm ever called out the lying crap show of a government....so why would they call out his coup ???


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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Thu Dec 30, 2021, 07:48 PM

112. Kicking!

"Nothing is taken seriously if people aren't held accountable."
- DUer gab13by13, Tuesday, Dec. 28, 2021

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