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Thu Dec 23, 2021, 09:58 AM

The Obscure Charge Jan. 6 Investigators Are Looking at for Trump

https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-obscure-charge-jan-6-investigators-are-looking-at-for-donald-trump?ref=scroll

While the DOJ pursues the rioters, the special House Jan. 6 Committee is separately collecting evidence to formulate a picture about how this all came together. And legal scholars say a strategy is taking shape—one that builds a case to criminally charge the former president.

“The DOJ and the committee are building a pyramid of guilt to get to the top. The more people who plead guilty, the more the top of the pyramid begins to take shape,” said Joshua E. Kastenberg, a professor at University of New Mexico’s law school.

Rep. Liz Cheney (R-WY), one of the two GOP members on the congressional panel investigating the insurrection, first drew attention to that possibility during a televised hearing last week. That’s when she made an obscure reference to “another key question before this committee: Did Donald Trump, through action or inaction, corruptly seek to obstruct or impede Congress’ official proceeding to count electoral votes?”

On Monday, The New York Times pushed that idea further when it revealed that the House committee investigating the insurrection is considering referring Trump to the Justice Department.

David Schultz, a law professor at the University of Minnesota, said congressional investigators could be building a case that Trump “aided and abetted” the rioters to interrupt the vote count. And Cheney’s statements, combined with the Justice Department’s aggressive use of this federal charge, hint at what might come.

“We are seeing a pattern of establishing an obstruction of justice that takes it up the food chain,” he said.

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Arrow 33 replies Author Time Post
Reply The Obscure Charge Jan. 6 Investigators Are Looking at for Trump (Original post)
Joinfortmill Dec 2021 OP
Zorro Dec 2021 #1
Captain Zero Dec 2021 #12
Justice matters. Dec 2021 #20
empedocles Dec 2021 #33
msfiddlestix Dec 2021 #2
Fiendish Thingy Dec 2021 #3
EYESORE 9001 Dec 2021 #4
Alexander Of Assyria Dec 2021 #6
Fiendish Thingy Dec 2021 #8
mopinko Dec 2021 #18
Bayard Dec 2021 #5
Alexander Of Assyria Dec 2021 #9
Wounded Bear Dec 2021 #10
SheltieLover Dec 2021 #7
CaptainTruth Dec 2021 #11
Beastly Boy Dec 2021 #13
Bernardo de La Paz Dec 2021 #16
2naSalit Dec 2021 #26
Efilroft Sul Dec 2021 #14
empedocles Dec 2021 #32
ancianita Dec 2021 #15
gab13by13 Dec 2021 #17
mopinko Dec 2021 #19
TeamProg Dec 2021 #21
KS Toronado Dec 2021 #22
OMGWTF Dec 2021 #23
calimary Dec 2021 #24
Marcuse Dec 2021 #25
empedocles Dec 2021 #31
Lunabell Dec 2021 #27
OMGWTF Dec 2021 #28
malaise Dec 2021 #29
empedocles Dec 2021 #30

Response to Joinfortmill (Original post)

Thu Dec 23, 2021, 10:03 AM

1. Trump's incitement of the rioters was on live television, after all

It was in-your-face obvious -- he even said he was going to march down to the Capitol with them.

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Response to Zorro (Reply #1)

Thu Dec 23, 2021, 11:00 AM

12. And then he was in communication

With members of Congress during the electoral roll calls of the votes, having them slow down (impede) (obstruct) the process as it occurred.

This after imploring Pence to throw out votes of certain states. (suborning obstruction) which Pence refused to do. I look forward to Pence being called to provide his testimony on this matter.

Once the pyramid is built up to Trump.
Charge him.

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Response to Zorro (Reply #1)

Thu Dec 23, 2021, 12:42 PM

20. Although he said "peacefully" he watched the ransack for 187 minutes

after he tweeted about Pence, inciting them further to the point they yelled "hang mike pence"...

It was his job, according to Article II of the U.S. Constitution, which twice imposes a duty of faithful execution on the President, who must “take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed", to order (tweet) them to stop their assault and go home.


That's the evidence that is obvious. What he was doing during those 3 hours and 7 minutes of inaction.

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Response to Zorro (Reply #1)

Fri Dec 24, 2021, 09:02 AM

33. All on 'TV' !

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Response to Joinfortmill (Original post)

Thu Dec 23, 2021, 10:08 AM

2. Well, the 2nd Impeachment Trial was all about DJT's Guilt directly related to the Insurrection

A ton of evidence was brought forward and the case was brilliantly prosecuted in the Senate, it seemed to me.

Just saying, much of that work was done, but of course any additional evidence is gravy...

All that evidence the DOJ surely was given or at the least, is there to bring, if only the DOJ asked for it?

Puzzling.

just sayin: not that "obscure"... it was out in the open.







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Response to Joinfortmill (Original post)

Thu Dec 23, 2021, 10:26 AM

3. It's not that obscure of a charge, as several January 6 militia members are charged with it. Nt

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Response to Fiendish Thingy (Reply #3)

Thu Dec 23, 2021, 10:28 AM

4. I was wondering what's obscure about aiding and abetting

Unless I’m mistaken, prosecutors file those charges quite often.

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Response to EYESORE 9001 (Reply #4)

Thu Dec 23, 2021, 10:42 AM

6. Yes. Website writers own opinion of Cheney's single comment...obscure...then works said

opinion into the title. Lol

I defer to the professor and the whole of the article, unvarnished by silly manipulation, not the propagandists.


“The DOJ and the committee are building a pyramid of guilt to get to the top. The more people who plead guilty, the more the top of the pyramid begins to take shape,” said Joshua E. Kastenberg, a professor at University of New Mexico’s law school.”

Point also some miss…DOJ AND the committee…these are two different railway tracks ending at the same station.

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Response to EYESORE 9001 (Reply #4)

Thu Dec 23, 2021, 10:43 AM

8. It's not aiding and abetting, the charge is Obstructing a Congressional Proceeding.

That’s the text of the statute Cheney read out loud last week.

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Response to Fiendish Thingy (Reply #8)

Thu Dec 23, 2021, 12:22 PM

18. official proceeding is what i think the wording is.

and someone tried to plead that it wasnt, and got shot down in court.

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Response to Joinfortmill (Original post)

Thu Dec 23, 2021, 10:37 AM

5. You gotta hope

What looks like the DOJ's lack of action is because they are building a case to the top.

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Response to Bayard (Reply #5)

Thu Dec 23, 2021, 10:43 AM

9. Ofc sir. Building the Case of The Century...takes a lot of labour to build giant pyramids that

will withstand the political gale forces from the fascists and their enslaved media.

Egyptians understand, I wager.

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Response to Bayard (Reply #5)

Thu Dec 23, 2021, 10:44 AM

10. DOJ is not supposed to telegraph what they're doing to the public...

I know that is little comfort for those of us who want to "lock him up" but it is true that telegraphing what they're doing just works in the defendent's favor.

I'm trying to be patient.

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Response to Joinfortmill (Original post)

Thu Dec 23, 2021, 10:43 AM

7. K&R!

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Response to Joinfortmill (Original post)

Thu Dec 23, 2021, 10:49 AM

11. Note Liz Cheney's words...

"Did Donald Trump, through action or inaction, corruptly seek to obstruct or impede Congress’ official proceeding to count electoral votes?"

She's practically reading the text of the charge in question, using all the key words, all the legal conditions that have to be met, & just recently (4-5 days ago?) a judge ruled that the charge does apply to one of the insurrectionists (their attorneys argued it didn't). As soon as I saw that ruling I said it set a precedent for charging other insurrectionists & provided a possible path for going after Trump. Now we need a bunch of insurrectionists convicted, that will build the base of the pyramid that supports charges against those at the top of the pyramid.

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Response to Joinfortmill (Original post)

Thu Dec 23, 2021, 11:02 AM

13. This is what DOJ is waiting for. A referral from the Legislative branch.

Last edited Thu Dec 23, 2021, 02:43 PM - Edit history (1)

Anything other than that, no matter what DOJ does on its own initiative, will be immediately criticized as a partisan DOJ taking sides, especially as it relates to the Executive branch which DOJ is part of.

And, as we have seen on DU, accusations of partisanship are being thrown around even as DOJ remains completely neutral in the matter.

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Response to Beastly Boy (Reply #13)

Thu Dec 23, 2021, 11:26 AM

16. Yes, Such a case has to be airtight all the way. . . . nt

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Response to Beastly Boy (Reply #13)

Thu Dec 23, 2021, 08:27 PM

26. +1

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Response to Joinfortmill (Original post)

Thu Dec 23, 2021, 11:10 AM

14. Roger Stone and Alex Jones were telegraphing the intent of insurrection four years ago. Read this.

"Try to impeach him, just try it," [Roger] Stone said. "You will have a spasm of violence in this country, an insurrection like you’ve never seen."

"You're predicting that if he got impeached there'd be some sort of Civil War-type?" the cameraman asked Stone to clarify.

"Yes, that's what I think will happen."

https://www.salon.com/2017/12/22/alex-jones-and-roger-stone-prepare-for-civil-war-after-trump-is-removed-from-office/?fbclid=IwAR3pUuZBXfn9bRpTQr20N0KuZwwrDSBgSVzt_JPjm1TJ_RGikY1gy7aXMVs

It's interesting that two key Trump allies were using "insurrection" to describe how MAGA Nation would react if Trump were impeached or sent packing by the voters. You played yourselves, Roger and Alex.

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Response to Efilroft Sul (Reply #14)

Fri Dec 24, 2021, 09:00 AM

32. TY

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Response to Joinfortmill (Original post)

Thu Dec 23, 2021, 11:11 AM

15. Obstruction of the election process, though obscure, is right up there with Obstruction of Justice.

It's a high crime when committed by elected officials through conspiracy and pretext.

Gym Jordan called the Willard Hotel command center AND stands as the linchpin who called Trump. The conspiracy connection is there and what's truly obscure is the defense of "coincidence" of them all talking while Congress and Pence were on the run.

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Response to Joinfortmill (Original post)

Thu Dec 23, 2021, 11:49 AM

17. Headline is false,

It is not an obscure charge or an obscure law.

1. Robert Mueller indicted a Russian troll farm on the exact same charge.
2. Chuck Rosenberg said he used it and won a case for the IRS.
3. I'm sure there are more instances that I am not aware of.

It just pisses me off when misleading headlines like this are used, it makes people assume the law is antiquated when it isn't.

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Response to Joinfortmill (Original post)

Thu Dec 23, 2021, 12:26 PM

19. if the soldiers go to jail, but the generals dont

i suspect it wakes up a whole lot of people.
those grunts in jail will remember.
in no army do the grunts not notice when they get punished but the guys w the fruit salad skate.

i think it's sort of a win for us either way, politics-wise.
but it's the end of democracy if they get away w crimes of this magnitude.

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Response to Joinfortmill (Original post)

Thu Dec 23, 2021, 12:46 PM

21. It doesn't sound ALL THAT OBSCURE! No more so than many other laws on our books.


Even the Daily Beast is marginalizing our laws.

Sad shape of the MSM.

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Response to Joinfortmill (Original post)

Thu Dec 23, 2021, 12:51 PM

22. Can't wait for us to "Lock Him Up"

Sure hope it's prior to the midterms, believe it would help us.

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Response to Joinfortmill (Original post)

Thu Dec 23, 2021, 12:58 PM

23. We know Shitler was in charge because

the insurrectionists went home only when he told them to.

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Response to Joinfortmill (Original post)

Thu Dec 23, 2021, 02:10 PM

24. "The fish rots from the head."

I believe it was Michael Dukakis who once said that, or maybe his remark was the first time I’d heard such a quote.

The head of this particular (and rather putrid body of voters) is trump. All roads lead straight to him. All the bad roads, anyway.

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Response to Joinfortmill (Original post)

Thu Dec 23, 2021, 08:10 PM

25. RICO!

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Response to Marcuse (Reply #25)

Fri Dec 24, 2021, 08:59 AM

31. Hopefully

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Response to Joinfortmill (Original post)

Thu Dec 23, 2021, 08:37 PM

27. Well I certainly hope this happens.

But you know it's going to incite his kkkrazy base to violence. Scary times.

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Response to Joinfortmill (Original post)

Thu Dec 23, 2021, 08:49 PM

28. We got lucky they're stupid; now we need to nail and jail all of these traitors, especially TFG.

Otherwise J6 was just a dress rehearsal and America is dead.

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Response to Joinfortmill (Original post)

Thu Dec 23, 2021, 08:57 PM

29. Down he goes

Rec

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Response to Joinfortmill (Original post)

Fri Dec 24, 2021, 08:59 AM

30. Very good

A Season's gift for all of us

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