HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » So its legal for 17 yr ol...

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 07:30 AM

So its legal for 17 yr olds to open carry AR-15s in Wisconsin ?!

So its legal for 17 yr olds to open carry AR-15s in Wisconsin ?!


I guess this is the part of the whole trial that's so screwed up on its face


The police on video enabling the kid is disgusting too, like WTF really ?!


I don't see the message this verdict in this trial sends making the people of Wisconsin safer

40 replies, 1566 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 40 replies Author Time Post
Reply So its legal for 17 yr olds to open carry AR-15s in Wisconsin ?! (Original post)
uponit7771 Nov 20 OP
Buckeye_Democrat Nov 20 #1
uponit7771 Nov 20 #4
Buckeye_Democrat Nov 20 #5
PatSeg Nov 20 #24
uponit7771 Nov 20 #29
no_hypocrisy Nov 20 #2
uponit7771 Nov 20 #3
gab13by13 Nov 20 #7
multigraincracker Nov 20 #20
sl8 Nov 20 #26
doc03 Nov 20 #25
janterry Nov 20 #6
gab13by13 Nov 20 #8
Decoy of Fenris Nov 20 #9
uponit7771 Nov 20 #10
Decoy of Fenris Nov 20 #11
Buckeye_Democrat Nov 20 #12
uponit7771 Nov 20 #13
Buckeye_Democrat Nov 20 #14
uponit7771 Nov 20 #17
Buckeye_Democrat Nov 20 #19
uponit7771 Nov 20 #21
JustAnotherGen Nov 20 #27
Buckeye_Democrat Nov 20 #28
JustAnotherGen Nov 20 #31
Buckeye_Democrat Nov 20 #33
Buckeye_Democrat Nov 20 #34
BeckyDem Nov 20 #39
janterry Nov 20 #15
uponit7771 Nov 20 #16
janterry Nov 20 #18
ForgedCrank Nov 20 #32
Hav Nov 20 #38
doc03 Nov 20 #22
BeckyDem Nov 20 #23
DetroitLegalBeagle Nov 20 #35
BeckyDem Nov 20 #36
DetroitLegalBeagle Nov 20 #37
Generic Brad Nov 20 #30
American Interregnum Nov 20 #40

Response to uponit7771 (Original post)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 07:39 AM

1. He was legally allowed on a technicality that was...

... intended to apply to 16 and 17 years old hunting with long-barreled rifles. But it wasn't well-written in regard to only wildlife hunting, so it was applied to Rittenhouse too.

That's why the length of the barrel of Rittenhouse's gun was brought up in the trial.

There's all kinds of "legal" things in this country that are immoral.

If there would've been some law in Minnesota that states death by asphyxiation was only illegal by hands or tools, there would've been lawyers and right-wingers arguing, "Watch the video! Chauvin only used his knee, so it was okay!"

EXPLAINER: Why did judge drop Rittenhouse gun charge?
https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/explainer-judge-drop-rittenhouse-gun-charge-81285031

Edit: Even slavery was "legal" in this country at one time, obviously.
Rule of law often means immorality with impunity, when right-wing authoritarians get their way.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Buckeye_Democrat (Reply #1)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 07:47 AM

4. +1, It goes without saying he was NOT hunting game, I would've pressed this if I was the prosecutor

... in this case.

The judge acted like a simpleton multiple times but each time in the favor of KR ... disgusting.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to uponit7771 (Reply #4)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 07:50 AM

5. I think the prosecutor might've done just that.

I can't quite remember now.

But the law was very poorly written, such that it could be applied to pretty much any situation.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to uponit7771 (Reply #4)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 08:47 AM

24. Perhaps the definition of "game" is different in Wisconsin?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to PatSeg (Reply #24)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 09:13 AM

29. +1

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to uponit7771 (Original post)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 07:41 AM

2. So in WS, a 17 yo can carry an AR-15 but can't buy a beer.

WS legislature has some tweaking to do on those gun laws.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to no_hypocrisy (Reply #2)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 07:45 AM

3. +1

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to no_hypocrisy (Reply #2)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 07:56 AM

7. A short barreled AR-15 that is worthless for hunting, game.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to gab13by13 (Reply #7)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 08:41 AM

20. If you need more than 3 rounds in your hunting rifle,

you should take up fishing.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to gab13by13 (Reply #7)


Response to no_hypocrisy (Reply #2)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 08:49 AM

25. I was able to go to the Army before I could vote and could only

buy 3.2% beer.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to uponit7771 (Original post)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 07:52 AM

6. The problem, imo, are all the pundits screaming about the case

If they reported on the facts, we'd be left with the conclusion that laws need to change. Instead, people are making hyperbolic claims about the judge, the judicial system, and what happened. There were STILL reports that black men were killed, following the verdict (That was the headline of The Independent - they have since corrected that)

Joe Scarborough of MSNBC on Friday:

“Here we have a 17-year-old kid, underage, said he bought an AR-15 because he thought it was cool. He drove across state -- had his mother drive him across state lines—he appointed himself a militia member, he goes around and he ends up unloading, what, sixty rounds?”

PBS on their newshour got things wrong:
Capehart on PBS references "a teenager with an illegal gun [false] (among other exaggerations)

Were the men even there to protest (the ones KR shot?)
Rosenbaum (his girlfriend testified under oath - he was not a protester.

Grosskreutz (as he testified himself) was not a protester.

Huber - maybe a protester.

Look, the laws should change. But until reporters can identify the problem - people are just going to jump up and down and blame everyone but the law. The law needs to change. This should never happen again. People died.

In the meantime, I'm disgusted at the state of journalism.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to janterry (Reply #6)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 08:02 AM

8. Jonathan Capehart

is the guy who was on Chris Matthews show and brought a newspaper depicting Bernie Sanders on the front page working to help minorities get housing. Capehart told Matthews that the person in the newspaper was not Bernie Sanders, that Sanders was lying about fighting for minority housing. It was in fact a photo of Sanders and I never recall Capehart apologizing for his mistake. There are people here who want Capehart to take Rachel's place next year.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to janterry (Reply #6)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 08:04 AM

9. Exactly. The folks screaming bloody murder are making it impossible to fix this situation.

 

Just a whole bunch of social media pundits in a gigantic circlejerk blaming everyone, screaming racism and sexism and colonialism, any "Ism" they can come up with to get as many clicks as they can.

The laws need to change, but that won't happen so long as the fuckin' clown car continues unloading these social media freak-show rejects.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Decoy of Fenris (Reply #9)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 08:08 AM

10. "...any "Ism" they can come up ...", You feel a black kid would've been treated the same way as KR

.. in a similar situation? Really?! tia

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to uponit7771 (Reply #10)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 08:12 AM

11. Of course not. Race matters.

 

But since I can't anticipate how others respond, I have to respond in the only way I know how; With my own input. And if it were a black kid in place of Rittenhouse, I would have voted to acquit based on preponderance of evidence of their innocence.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to uponit7771 (Reply #10)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 08:16 AM

12. A poor person without public support...

... might've had a different outcome, regardless of their skin color. OJ Simpson wasn't convicted either.

I was in a courtroom when the judge threw the book at some (white) guy because he clearly hated that guy's poorly-dressed lawyer. The lawyer kept making statements which were supposedly not legally correct according to the judge, who would then meekly apologize before doing it yet again.

Then the judge pronounced guilt with the "maximum sentence", and I sat there in shock because I barely even understood what the case was about when that happened!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Buckeye_Democrat (Reply #12)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 08:20 AM

13. KR family looks about as working poor as one can get, I also typed "similar situation" so ...

... context can't go all over the place.

I think its clear, a black kid would've been hung (in a myriad of ways) before he got to the court

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to uponit7771 (Reply #13)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 08:23 AM

14. Probably true, but money plays an oversized role...

... in this sick country too.

Don't forget that all kinds of Republicans were throwing money toward Rittenhouse, so that's why I also mentioned "without public support".

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Buckeye_Democrat (Reply #14)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 08:31 AM

17. I thought KRs mom was asking for help for legal fees? You're right, money walks and talks too much

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to uponit7771 (Reply #17)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 08:38 AM

19. That article states their fund already raised...

... over $460,000 since March.

I'm pretty sure that I couldn't have raised that much money in a similar situation.

Not that I would've ever interjected myself at some unlawful assembly (which made Rittenhouse's presence illegal in the first place), and I especially would've never brought an AR-15 with me. And Rittenhouse wasn't even a resident there, unlike people who were killed by him.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Buckeye_Democrat (Reply #19)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 08:43 AM

21. Got a point there, sounds like his mother is into the grift then ... that's all the right has come t

... to these days, grifting

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Buckeye_Democrat (Reply #14)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 09:06 AM

27. kalief browder

Same socio economic background as Crybaby Rittenhouse.

Did not steal a backpack.

Was imprisoned without trial at Rikers island for 3 1/2 years.

Goes on to commit suicide after being released.

A tale of 2 races.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #27)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 09:10 AM

28. Rittenhouse's mother already raised over $460,000...

... for his defense fund since March, while saying that even more is needed to pay his legal fees.

Unless Mr. Browder had a fund of hundreds of thousands of dollars too, I don't think he's a good comparison on the money issue.

That's why I wrote "without public support" earlier.

EDIT: I personally experienced how our legal system treats poor white guys like me. It obviously wasn't anything as horrible as what happened to Mr. Browder, but I was found guilty of a misdemeanor for domestic violence over 20 years ago when I did NOTHING except yell at my wife for cheating on me. And I didn't even threaten her whatsoever! I only made insults about her character. Then I LEFT and moved in with my parents, and to file for a divorce. That was it!
But she was vengeful about the insults from me, so she called the police the NEXT DAY to report she "felt threatened" by me.
To my amazement, they showed up at my parents door and I was cited for doing nothing violent or threatening at all.
Earning barely above minimum wage at the time, I opted for a public defender too.
When the trial date arrived, my public defender said she had "already worked it out with the judge" and I wasn't going to be found guilty of physical assault, but only threatening language. I was dumbfounded and told her that I didn't even do that! Then she got irritated and said that I might get 3 months in jail if I didn't cooperate and just plead guilty or no contest!
Which scared me. so I plead no contest and I was found guilty... without EVER getting to tell my side of the story to the judge whatsoever!
It was only a 4th degree misdemeanor, but it impacted my life immensely. I haven't even kissed a girl in over 20 years, and I'm a straight guy with typical urges along those lines!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Buckeye_Democrat (Reply #28)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 09:29 AM

31. He at least got his day in court

So she COULD raise funds.

The criminal justice system threw a black child into a pit of vipers and wouldn't even give him his day in court.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this issue.

I'm thinking about my dad driving in his Cadillac in a town he had lived in for 30 years (less than 2K people) and who had served in office, ran the little league etc etc . . .

Getting pulled over by the Monroe County Sheriff two months before he died when he went on an ice cream run. Oxygen tank and everything.

Rottenhouse was treated better.

A tale of two races.

Its hard to *see it* when you don't have dark skin. When you or someone you love has never been the target of it.

I'm 48 and I have hardened my heart on race in America. You can't change my mind.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #31)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 09:39 AM

33. Read my edit in my previous post.

I didn't get to tell my story at all years ago.

Well, the probation officer later allowed me to later write a description of what actually happened. Too late at that point.

Not the same horrible outcome that happened to that poor black kid from the Bronx, but similar along money-related lines no doubt.

By the way, I'd never even had a criminal conviction of any kind when I went through my experience over 20 years ago.

Edit: I later learned that only Ohio and Maine have domestic violence laws that include "threatening language" under that category. It's basically he-said, she-said idiocy in Ohio.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #31)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 10:24 AM

34. My experience also impacted my earning ability...

... for years.

I had double-majored in math and physics, receiving my BS degree not long before that happened, and I soon learned that my conviction excluded me from higher-earning professional jobs. So I worked in factories instead, surrounded by people (many of them basically Trump cultists even before he ran for President) who've nearly made me suicidal a few times, just being forced to interact with them.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #31)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 11:36 AM

39. +1

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to uponit7771 (Reply #10)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 08:28 AM

15. How will this discussion/reporting change the law

Look, it's fine to have discussions about race - always. But the real problem with this case was the law. Not race. Everywhere I look, the only takeaway is something, something, about race.

Where is the something, something about the law? It's insane. We can't fix the problem this way.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to janterry (Reply #15)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 08:29 AM

16. Objective people can see on the face of the current laws they're not fair that's how it helps ...

... the discussion about changing the laws.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to uponit7771 (Reply #16)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 08:36 AM

18. So, the takeaway is that we should strengthen the laws on guns?

I'm missing that - certainly on here.

Among my friends, the initial takeaway wasn't that, either.

But you might be right. I'll keep looking. (I will)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to janterry (Reply #6)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 09:31 AM

32. Finally,

some logic and reason.
The written law is one of the problems here, the other is the shit DA and prosecutor.
WI has some serious issues with poorly written laws, and their DA and prosecutor are either completely incompetent, or absolutely corrupt, it's hard to figure out which.
The media have so badly botched this, more people than not are running around having fits about things that aren't even remotely true.
What really gets me is that there are so many cases of injustice every day that can be pointed at, we (in general) get fixated on the wrong examples, and it completely taints both the message and the movement. I'm not trying to downplay the tragedy of the dead and injured from the Kenosha incident, it was terrible all around, but we can do so much better as a whole in better choosing what should be highlighted and focused on.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to janterry (Reply #6)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 11:32 AM

38. Well said

It's impossible to improve a situation if you cannot correctly identify the problem or if you have to make your point to people who, thanks to misinformation, have such a warped perception of reality, they might just as well live in a different world.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to uponit7771 (Original post)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 08:45 AM

22. We didn't have AR-15s back in my day but we carried our shotguns and .22s

going to hunting spots when I was around 11 or 12.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to uponit7771 (Original post)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 08:45 AM

23. Race, when mixed with the intentions of the protests, which showed white people standing against

police brutality was a factor imo. The gun culture of Wisconsin, no doubt, gave the jury another means to excuse Rittenhouse. Taking a rifle to a protest was not to be considered looking to incite violence. This indicates how warped our values are in this country.

The jury instructions were fucking incredible:

"The jury instructions were really centered around that term 'reasonable.' Defining the word 'reasonable.' And the jury instructions required this jury to look through the lens and perspective of Kyle Rittenhouse. Not Monday morning quarterback, not the jurors, or the court of public opinion in hindsight," Coates said. "What would he reasonably and what did he reasonably believe about the possibility of a lethal threat or harm and grave bodily harm?"

That, in combination with having to disprove Rittenhouse's self-defense claim and show he provoked the violence during the chaotic night, meant the"deck was stacked against" prosecutors, Coates said.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/19/us/legal-experts-what-helped-rittenhouse-acquittal/index.html

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BeckyDem (Reply #23)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 11:07 AM

35. The reasonable standard wasn't unique to this case

Its the standard for judging self defense claims pretty much everywhere. Same with it having to be judged from the perspective of the person claiming self defense. The actual facts, particularly ones not learned until after the incident and ones that the person claiming self defense wasn't in a position to know, take a back seat. Legal self defense is based entirely around whether a reasonable 3rd person would act in the same way while in the same situation and knowing what the defendant knew at that time.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DetroitLegalBeagle (Reply #35)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 11:16 AM

36. Right, the reasonable means used against a skateboard as a weapon.

Skipping around the protestors with a rifle was not a threat, not at all.

Spare me your rationalizations.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BeckyDem (Reply #36)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 11:26 AM

37. What makes a skateboard different from a baseball bat or any other blunt object?

Especially when used to hit someone in the head. The law doesn't state one must use the equivalent weapon to defend yourself, only equivalent force. Deadly force is deadly force regardless of the weapon used. And its not rationalization, its literally the damn law.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to uponit7771 (Original post)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 09:15 AM

30. Apparently it is legal for them to be unstoppable active shooters

But only if they are white incels.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to uponit7771 (Original post)

Sat Nov 20, 2021, 02:02 PM

40. Mr Titus:

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread