General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIn the Mormon temple video, can anyone explain why women are fully veiled like a burqa?
Is this more of the subservient women bullshit?
I know in Islam its ostensibly about "protecting" women from the lust of men. Shrouding them so they are disappeared as second class citizens.
But a Mormon temple ritual? I'm trying to figure out the rationale for women needing to be completely enshrouded.
Can any Mormons or ex-Mormons explain this to me?
nichomachus
(12,754 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)The bridal veil has specific meaning and is not used to cover the bride through the entire ceremony. At Christian weddings, we all see the bride, dance with the bride, kiss the bride....she's not veiled the whole time at Christian weddings.
nichomachus
(12,754 posts)Watch the video. They only veil their faces during prayers. On the other hand, at ultra-orthodox Jewish weddings, the bride remains heavily veiled during the ceremony.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Sorry but clearly the "veil" in this religion has real implications. The women having to have their faces fully covered means something. I'm curious what that means.
nichomachus
(12,754 posts)Men have always wanted for women to have their hair or heads veiled. Orthodox Jewish women wear wigs. Some shave off their own hair. What's really odd is that some of those wigs are made from real hair and are very expensive. So I'm not sure what the point is.
Anyhoo -- you also have to remember that the Mormon Temple ceremony originally was conducted in the open in buildings with windows. But when Joseph Smith realized there were women he hadn't screwed yet -- and their husbands were unwilling to let them screw Smith -- he came up with the secret Temple ceremonies, in which the women "sealed with the prophet." (wink wink nudge nude).
Part of the ceremony, which they didn't show in the video, involved being washed (annointed or whatever they call it). They go into a bathtub and the men reach under their garments and wash their naked bodies. I'll bet Smith loved that part. One Mormon woman, when asked about the ceremony, said all she remembers was that she was groped by a bunch of dirty old men.
cthulu2016
(10,960 posts)Not as veiled as these women, but the general thing about women being covered is common to all of the great monotheisms
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)MgtPA
(1,022 posts)riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)It had some humorous spots. One of them was when they all had to go to Friday confession and if the girls forgot to bring a headcovering the nuns would pin a square of paper towel to their hair! Or the girls could pull their school uniform cardigans up over their head and button it under their chin with the arms hanging down alongside.
Sorry I'm being sacrilegious but its pretty damn funny in the book.
MgtPA
(1,022 posts)12 years of Catholic school and all that; as George Carlin said "I used to be Irish Catholic, now I'm an American". Me too.
I haven't read "Wishin' and Hopin', sounds good. Have you ever read "Growing Up Catholic"? It's a hoot, especially for those who went through the Catholic school system back in the 1960's.
I remember being trotted into church by the nuns for confession, choir practice, or Stations of the Cross, and if you forgot your veil or beanie, you got a kleenex bobby-pinned to your head.
BlueMTexpat
(15,366 posts)the nuns who instructed me used a kleenex instead of a paper towel, but see that you posted it first.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)when she "forgot" the lacy veil thingie. And yes, he blew his nose in that handkerchief (paper kleenex wasn't such a popular thing back then)... nothing like having to wear your dad's snot rag on your head in public.
I didn't have to wear the lacy veil thingie since the practice was either given up before I was born or while I was still a baby. My sister and brothers still laugh about that though.
Mom quickly jumped on the paper kleenex bandwagon though and although Dad still used cloth hankies till the day he died Mom always had and likely still has wads of tissues tucked under her sleeves at the wrist even though she almost always wore something with pockets and always carried a purse. My aunts used to the do kleenexes up the sleeves thing, too. I never understood why they didn't just use a pocket or their purses.
Fresh_Start
(11,330 posts)covering the hair is different than covering the face
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)nt
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)lunasun
(21,646 posts)Skidmore
(37,364 posts)dies becomes a god with his own planet and all the wives he seal himself to for eternity. I think I might mention on my FB page that it has occurred to me that should Romney be elected, America would be getting its first polytheistic president. This actually deserves its own thread.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)not making fun of, just being honest.
cthulu2016
(10,960 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)"the general thing about women being covered is common to all of the great monotheisms" which implies Mormonism is one of the 'great monotheisms' which it is not. Sorry for the confusion.
They believe all Mormon males can become Gods and get planets to rule. Very polytheist, very.
They also do not belive in the immaculate conception, which is basic to Chritianity and is also a component of Islam.
lunasun
(21,646 posts)burqa at least can be colorful but mormons do go out on the street with this
I think only the underwear
and it does not matter Morman or Muslim or Non believer
it is about his policies and actions
fear that!
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)in the rituals that I saw on the video.
That means something. Mitt Rmoney has a pretty bad track record for women working as equal partners with him both during his governorship and his time at Bain.
I'm very curious if the gender inequality is deeply ingrained. I believe it is. I'm curious however to hear from any Mormons or ex-Mormons about it.
lunasun
(21,646 posts)and yes that is why he quit now that I think about it..... women's issues !!!
he could not stand the way young women were treated
there was some party that they were told by older temple members the young women could not attend because they 'disobeyed' the church by some mild incident
he blew his top and that was it
last straw I guess
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)So the fact that women are fully veiled means something.
I suspect its to reinforce the concept that women are not allowed to fully 'see" the divine/Kolob/god - whatever.
That kind of deep gender inequality is a big deal. Like I said above, Mitt Rmoney's personal business examples indicates he hasn't fostered women in the workplace, ever.
lunasun
(21,646 posts)yes veiling is a form of bondgage
Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)was it here on DU?
Veteran Pillsbury spokesperson, the Pillsbury Doughboy, died yesterday of a
severe yeast infection and complications from repeated pokes to the belly.
He was 71. Some fervent devotees expected him to rise again, but they were
disappointed.
Doughboy was buried in a slightly greased coffin. The funeral was held at
3:50 for about 20 minutes. Doughboy is survived by his second wife, Play
Dough. They have two children and one in the oven.
The Doughboy rose quickly in show business but his later life was filled
with many turnovers. He was not considered a very smart cookie, wasting
much of his dough on half-baked schemes. Despite being a little flaky at
times he still, as a crusty old man, he was considered a roll model for
millions.
Dozens of celebrities turned out, including Mrs. Butterworth, the
California Raisins, Hungry Jack, Betty Crocker, the Hostess Twinkies,
Captain Crunch and many others. The graveside was piled high with flours of
longtime friends.
Aunt Jemima delivering the eulogy, described Doughboy as a man who "never
knew how much he was kneaded."
lunasun
(21,646 posts)lunasun
(21,646 posts)thankyou
grantcart
(53,061 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)4 days ago he removed Mormonism is a Cult from his website!
What a fake! Gah...
http://m.cbsnews.com/storysynopsis.rbml?pageType=politics&url=http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57535071/billy-grahams-organization-removes-mormonism-from-its-list-of-cults/&catid=57535071
aletier_v
(1,773 posts)Billy & the Fundies get the East half of America,
Mitt & the Mormons get the West.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)dance around a little in just a white sheet and bam!, sexy LOL
More sexy than these funny looking hats
Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)nichomachus
(12,754 posts)Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)quinnox
(20,600 posts)Islamic countries. WTF is up with that?
siouxsiecreamcheese
(587 posts)it pretty much explains reasons and why they put these clothes on in it more than the edited video.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)I'll watch the entire video later but can you give me the gist of why the women have to be fully shrouded and not the men?
siouxsiecreamcheese
(587 posts)I couldn't really give you any specifics at this point, I'm at work now. All I remember is there is a voiceover (god I assume?) where it explains how to put the clothes on and what it's supposed to represent.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)I've listened to a bit of it and can't find what you may be referencing.
Many thanks!
siouxsiecreamcheese
(587 posts)It doesn't really give any specifics in the movie, but it repeats it again when the people in the church have to get dressed.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)I can theorize of course.
But was hoping (and continuing to kick) that some Mormon or ex Mormon could shed some theological light on it (thought the veil as it were, heh).
gaspee
(3,231 posts)In all religions, women are given subservient roles. One of the ways I know religion was created by man.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Mormonism gives women second-class status, and forces them to be subservient.
OldDem2012
(3,526 posts)In the "History of Utah, 1540-1886" by Hubert Howe Bancroft [1889] he wrote:
All good Mormons are buried in their endowment robes, and the veil worn by the women covers their faces when they are consigned to the grave. In the morning of the resurrection, this veil is to be lifted by the husband; otherwise no woman can see the face of the almighty in the next world.
It seems to imply that a woman was somehow not equal to a man in the eyes of Mormonism...at least that's what I'm getting from this.
Remember that a man started Mormonism and he had some personal quirks....this veil thing may have been one of them.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)although I think you are getting close to the actual doctrine on this.
Of course, we're being called out on the other thread for even wondering about the symbology of these temple garments
greyl
(22,990 posts)thus fouling things up bloody well in The Garden for everyone. That full length Mormon movie within the youtube above in this thread, makes it clear that the woman was dumb and naive and needed the man around to set things right.
siouxsiecreamcheese
(587 posts)Personally, I think all religions are wonky. Watching this video really shows how women are thought of in the church, basically they are just childish and dangerous. Adam was the smart one who said no, and Eve is the dumbass who was easily swayed and doomed mankind to misery. Then on top of that you have the apostles saying that Eve has to basically treat Adam like he's god on earth, just like he obeys god in heaven. So, I guess it's sort of like how the pope represents god on earth for Catholics. What he says goes, because obviously, he's the grown-up. As a feminist, I sometimes I wonder why I'm an agnostic when I really should be an atheist.
OldDem2012
(3,526 posts)....they were excluded from receiving property in a will.
If you're tracing family lines past 1850 you have a real tough job finding out the names of the wives and children. It wasn't until 1850 that women and children were actually listed by name on the US Federal Census, even though the woman's maiden name was still not listed.
And also remember, women were not allowed to vote until the 19th Amendment was passed in 1920.
Even today, women do not receive equal pay as men, and they are in danger of losing most of their hard-fought rights if the right-wingers get a chance to take them away.
LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)As a matriarchal feminist who reveres a divine Goddess, I believe in the existence of an earlier, matriarchal religion or religions that predated male-dominant religions in some parts of the world. I realize that various archaeologists have tried to debunk this theory, but to me, it makes some sense. I'm not an archaeologist or any kind of expert scholar, but I've done a lot of reading in this area.
Patriarchal religions, in at least their most extreme forms, seek to conceal the sexuality, power and divinity of women. I feel it was originally a reaction by men who previously had to revere the divine, life-creating power of the Mother Goddess, and by extension, Her daughters, women. When they took over the women's roles, they also took similar garments, and covered up the women.
I don't think it is any coincidence that male religious leaders in many patriarchal religions wear "dresses" in the form of long robes, and this tradition still exists in various forms. For example the pope, cardinals and many priests wear "dresses". Meanwhile Catholic nuns conceal most of their hair and the tops of their heads. Catholic women, and many of the responders noted, used to have to cover their heads to some degree AND their shoulders. Bare upper arms were not allowed at Masses in the 1960s, as far as I know. Likewise, Orthodox Jewish women must conceal their hair after marriage, and many Islamic women cover their heads, as well as faces or their entire bodies, depending on the local custom. A woman's hair symbolizes her power; concealing the hair takes away that power. In some places, I believe Ireland and France, women accused of collaborating with enemies have had their heads shaved as part of their punishment. A woman without her hair is seen as a woman without power.
Covering women up and treating them as virtually toxic is supposed to protect the males from their (former) power. Orthodox Jewish men don't even touch women other than their wives, lest those women be menstruating and thus giving off invisible "cooties", as I call them, requiring the men to do all kinds of cleansing and self-purification. That's how much women, and their unseen power, freak out men. Covering them up supposedly keeps women from getting "uppity" and/or rebelling against the patriarchal system.
In the same way, making contemporary American and European women the slaves of the fashion industry in its various forms helps prevent them from getting any ideas in their pretty little heads that might endanger the status and power of men.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)To remind women of their inability to "see" clearly and to keep them subservient (ie removing their power).
I was hoping a Mormon or ex-Mormon would chime in and give me the specific theological rationale - I'm always interested in how they frame that kind of full face veiling. I suspect it will be couched like the women are so REVERED that they must be covered up or something.
If Mitt had a history of mentoring women while in office, or even if women during his Bain tenure had thrived (and hired into the partnerships), then I wouldn't mind so much. But if his theology has interfered with his ability to "see" half the human population as less than fully equal ("binders full of women" ) that matters to me.
It matters to me a lot.
We know he lies but this would be tangible proof for me that his religion has enormous power in his daily "secular" life and not in a good way.
And FWIW, my daughter has her MA in medieval archaeology and fully agrees with your interpretation on early matriarchal religions (as do I).