HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » The dilemma that haunts A...

Sun Oct 24, 2021, 08:14 AM

The dilemma that haunts America.

Sometimes it is hard to see the forest for the trees. If we could stand back and look at it from afar, we could see that we are surrounded by flames.

Not only are political Parties divided, but families and friends are divided also.

There are no easy choices where no one is hurt and no one feels the pain.

America has been torn apart by lies and propaganda, disguised as some type of political revolution.

We are frozen by indecision. We cannot apply justice where justice is needed, for fear of inflaming emotions.

We cannot agree on the truth if it conflicts with our political agenda.

America is in the middle of a constitutional crisis and the flames are getting closer.

38 replies, 2922 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 38 replies Author Time Post
Reply The dilemma that haunts America. (Original post)
kentuck Oct 24 OP
Woodswalker Oct 24 #1
gojoe12 Oct 24 #2
Wounded Bear Oct 24 #6
dchill Oct 24 #13
Irish_Dem Oct 24 #3
gab13by13 Oct 24 #5
Quakerfriend Oct 24 #4
Joinfortmill Oct 24 #7
DENVERPOPS Oct 24 #21
Firestorm49 Oct 24 #8
gab13by13 Oct 24 #10
SheltieLover Oct 24 #18
llmart Oct 24 #22
DENVERPOPS Oct 24 #23
BlueJac Oct 24 #9
bucolic_frolic Oct 24 #11
Shipwack Oct 24 #12
Efilroft Sul Oct 24 #14
Martin Eden Oct 24 #15
gab13by13 Oct 24 #16
LiberatedUSA Oct 24 #25
ancianita Oct 24 #17
kentuck Oct 24 #19
ancianita Oct 24 #24
kentuck Oct 24 #27
ancianita Oct 24 #29
kentuck Oct 24 #31
ancianita Oct 24 #33
bluestarone Oct 24 #37
dwayneb Nov 4 #38
Upthevibe Oct 24 #20
BobTheSubgenius Oct 24 #26
kentuck Oct 24 #28
BobTheSubgenius Oct 24 #35
Baked Potato Oct 24 #30
llmart Oct 24 #32
Baked Potato Oct 24 #34
taxi Oct 24 #36

Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sun Oct 24, 2021, 08:22 AM

1. I agree

With no remedy in sight. I pretty much just keep to my wife and two adult children. My own sister and brother in-law are Trumpers and most of my friends are Trumpers, I'm done with all of them. They even gave up calling me which is fine. I no longer want to meet new people because as soon as I find out their even the slightest bit ok with Trump I'm done with em. This is part of the problem with being white middle-class, most of the people in my demographic are right wing dingalings

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Woodswalker (Reply #1)

Sun Oct 24, 2021, 08:27 AM

2. You poor thing

 

I can’t imagine being surrounded by Trump people. We have one trumpster in my neighborhood and he scares the bejeezes out of me

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Woodswalker (Reply #1)

Sun Oct 24, 2021, 09:38 AM

6. Compounded by the fact that so many people assume we're on their side...

because we're white, too.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Wounded Bear (Reply #6)

Sun Oct 24, 2021, 10:15 AM

13. That steams me, too. The nod and wink of racism.

How that makes anyone feel better about themselves is way beyond me.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sun Oct 24, 2021, 08:34 AM

3. We are in a civil war of sorts.

A psychological one.

States and citizens fighting and defying the federal government.
Trying to overturn a legal election. Storming the Capitol with weapons trying to harm elected officials.
Violence against local, state, federal officials.

Defying common sense health measures during a national pandemic.

The left has been demonized to the point the GOP and magats wish us dead.

We can see it clearly, a big chunk of the American populace is ignorant, delusional, violent, racist.
And they do not listen to facts, evidence, science, reason.

Frankly, it is getting to the point that I would be fine with them seceding.

Let them have their own hellhole country.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #3)

Sun Oct 24, 2021, 09:06 AM

5. In other words,

knowing or looking for the truth does not matter, and that is scary.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sun Oct 24, 2021, 08:59 AM

4. I think the first step to stopping this is to put a stop to Russian propaganda.

But, easier said than done I guess.
They can start by booting RT out of D.C.!!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sun Oct 24, 2021, 09:38 AM

7. FDR, "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself".

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Joinfortmill (Reply #7)

Sun Oct 24, 2021, 11:10 AM

21. Obviously

FDR never met any politicians in this "new" Republican Party........

We sure could use an FDR at this moment in history......Sadly, the Dems can't seem to find a leader anywhere near the likes of FDR...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sun Oct 24, 2021, 09:43 AM

8. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that the opposing party (us) isn't countering

on the same front. It’s those guys who get the majority of the headlines. It’s those guys who insist that TFG is a saint. Its those guys succeeding at voter repression. It’s those guys who fight education, environment, women’s health……..and get the headlines

It’s our side that has appeared deplete in getting our side of the story out. Biden has a bully pulpit, but Garland doesn’t seem to be too concerned about swift, strong action to demonstrate to the American public that we are, in fact, a country with laws that mean something.

If we are to continue as a democracy, the return to accountability and its ramifications need to be on high display. I sometimes wonder if there isn’t some grand plan to take down this country that involves both parties, as I don’t see Democrats with their talons out to stop this horrific slide into Authoritarianism.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Firestorm49 (Reply #8)

Sun Oct 24, 2021, 09:45 AM

10. It's hard to control the narrative,

when right wing billionaires control the MSM.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to gab13by13 (Reply #10)

Sun Oct 24, 2021, 10:32 AM

18. This!👆

I would love to see media outlets being bought up by Dems, but it seems every announcement is qpukes gaining more ground.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to gab13by13 (Reply #10)

Sun Oct 24, 2021, 11:12 AM

22. +1000

Therein lies the biggest problem.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Firestorm49 (Reply #8)

Sun Oct 24, 2021, 11:15 AM

23. Agree X 1000

Mueller's efforts weren't all that impressive, and now Garland seems to be playing patty-cake with all these criminals.

WASF people.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sun Oct 24, 2021, 09:43 AM

9. We must prosecute Trump's enablers as fast as possible

Get that message out there that we mean business. Time is of the essence, 2022 will be on us and the elections will be the biggest cluster fuck of all time!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sun Oct 24, 2021, 10:12 AM

11. Sometime in the past 30 years

I came across an article in one of the foreign policy publications from the 1970s, that asserted the USSR and USA would be flipping ideologies over time. It wasn't a meet in the middle idea, it was a flip-flop swap. I first heard it in school in the 1970s which is why i went searching for it. Surely I can't find it today. But it makes me wonder if this wasn't always the plan. USSR was ruled by elites with public ownership of property. Now it's privatized and oligarchs rule. Our own population has been dumbed down. This is being fed from the top. And oligarchs and capitalists rule. Soviet citizens were kept in fear and in confusion. A line would form to buy some scarce commodity. Everyone would get in line. It woud last all day. The rumor was it was ... whatever, beets, cabbages, ear muffs. When you got to the front it was eggs and cinnamon. But you were glad to get it. Or so the stories that I read went.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sun Oct 24, 2021, 10:12 AM

12. This is nothing new, but this too shall pass...

Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere the ceremony of innocence is lost
The best lack all conviction, while the worst are filled with passionate intensity.
W.B. Yeats

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sun Oct 24, 2021, 10:21 AM

14. I really don't care if my family/coworkers on the other side are inflamed by justice

That's because they never were concerned about what's right or what's fair or what's good. They've always been about themselves, and those faults were with them way before Trump arrived on the political scene; maybe we just never recognized them for what they've always been. But what Trump did was portray their character flaws as virtues, that their prejudices and hatreds were American as apple pie, and the lot of them crawled out from under their rocks for their last, long day in the sun to bask in his affirmation and approval.

We need to remember that these people made the choice to go down the path of cruelty, and also be useful idiots to another government. If they are blood of mine, they are no longer my family. If they are my fellow countrymen, they are no longer Americans.

They are no longer worth saving. In short, fuck their feelings.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sun Oct 24, 2021, 10:21 AM

15. A House divided against itself cannot stand

If Americans do not find a way to find common purpose and goals, our House is doomed to crumble into the ash heap of history.

On the hopeful side, there is very little inherent conflict of interest between the vast majority of Americans, regardless of political beliefs. We all need a livable income, healthcare, education for our children, security from crime and foreign attack, civil liberties including voting rights, and environmental sustainability.

Logically and rationally, our political dynamics should be a robust debate on how best to achieve those mutually beneficial goals.

Instead, we are embroiled in bitter culture wars fueled by Big Lies, ignorance, and deep seated bigotry.

There is less hope in overcoming what currently divides us.

I think we are being purposely driven apart to serve interests other than the mutually beneficial ones I described earlier in this post.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sun Oct 24, 2021, 10:24 AM

16. Dare I go there?

Religion is a problem, it is based on faith. It can program people to not question things. The predestination people can just "blame" everything on God. Trump was God's chosen one, etc.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to gab13by13 (Reply #16)

Sun Oct 24, 2021, 11:19 AM

25. Church services are surreal.

It really is amazing to sit back and watch it and see if anyone is aware of how fucking goofy the whole process is from start to finish, especially the Catholic services. Get up, kneel, stand, sing, recite back and forth with the Priest.

I wonder if anyone ever gets an epiphany, looks around and says to themselves “holy fucking shit, this is some bizarre ass shit we do on a weekly basis”.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sun Oct 24, 2021, 10:31 AM

17. I feel your dread, kentuck.

But I refuse to spread it. I want us to look to what feeds hope & action so that we'll know the vanguards and helpers when we see them. More and more of us are on the perimeter, on the lookout and looking outward away from our people.

To me we're not in a dilemma; we're suffering together through transition, and it's time to say goodbye to loyalty and build new families that will give more than they get. They can be extended play family, but they're kind, honest hardworking, smart and loving.

Take care. It's gonna get better.




Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ancianita (Reply #17)

Sun Oct 24, 2021, 10:47 AM

19. The dilemma is in not knowing what to do about it.

We just keep floating along on a raft filled with hope.

I do think a "union movement" across the nation might be very useful at this time.

The one thing the wealthy fear is for the common man to organize because there is strength in numbers.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Reply #19)

Sun Oct 24, 2021, 11:17 AM

24. Every single thing that hits us from now on will be unprecedented -- climate crises and other

Earth dynamics that disrupt. Disruption by crazy, frightened and stupid people will be part of that.
Being on a raft of hope won't help. Obama says that hope is what really drives action.
So I’m glad you see the worth of union behavior that seems to be happening.
Even if actual unions aren't running this, they've had their influence and people have learned how well unionizing works.

So while I know your feeling on the raft, I've been channeling it, and learning how resilience gets developed. One first step is to realize that scientists already know this: there are no longer baseline data that will no longer help them to predict Earth dynamics. What that means is that we have to accept that when we can no longer predict, we can no longer long term plan. We have to be able and ready for action plans A — F. Constantly.

Will this be the future situation absolute and everywhere? Of course not, but we absolutely know that there are whole countries going through climate disaster changes right now, with viral pandemic problems of society, work, religion, all that stuff disrupted and their flaws laid bare. We know they’re headed toward us, who have a modular system of dealing with unpredictable crises, and so we don’t collapse suddenly or even like dominoes.

So because of this country’s structural strengths — regionalism, infrastructure, disaster relief and money — we have to accept early that the new constant will be change, constant change. To know this when it's undeniable will be too late in that too many will have beaten us to zones of safety. So read up on collapse and resilience building, so that we learn how to live well, who to do that with, and who can help us do that.


I brought this up a couple of weeks ago, with some useful sources that network resource help for what we'll be facing. Because what you're feeling, I think, is caused by things that politics alone can't fix.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100215906876#post16

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ancianita (Reply #24)

Sun Oct 24, 2021, 12:14 PM

27. Thanks for the encouraging comments.

I do not mean for any of my posts to be dreadful or to sound as if there is no hope, but rather to express reality as close as possible, in my opinion, so as to prepare and understand where we are headed.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Reply #27)

Sun Oct 24, 2021, 12:36 PM

29. ...

I know you don't mean a theme of dread and that you haven't been this way as a poster.

And hey, the negative is half the universe, and this past year it bore down on us hard. So those who ignore it have worse problems than those of us who see ahead.

Here's why I'm never judging you or anyone on our side of politics ...
Seeing reality that keeps shifting is hard because of the huge ocean of white noise stupidity treadmill. It gets us on it with a big bait for the day, and keeps us running. Right now one clue that we need to get off is that the more facts and documents come forward to congress and law enforcement, the more 'look over there' headlines media present over every single thing just to keep ratings and ad buy up. But the right wing's hysteria about everything is telling.

I detest that sexist, Bill Maher.
But he's right about one thing, well, two things: the Right hate us, and won't stop their hysteria.
We see too few of them walking away from it, but dialing down the heat might have to be up to our side.
He and we know our side is on the right side of history, but when rule of force walks the streets, someone's got to 'take a break.' Strategic retreats are Sun Tzu moves. Because if we let chaos happen, that's when they unleash their violence.

Anyway, you are fine. I just wanted to throw in my two cents.
I appreciate your posts because we really are in all this together.



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ancianita (Reply #29)

Sun Oct 24, 2021, 12:48 PM

31. Perhaps it is time "to take a break"?

Like a pebble dropped in the middle of the ocean, perhaps it might make a difference? At least for my own peace of mind/

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Reply #31)

Sun Oct 24, 2021, 01:04 PM

33. Why not? I do it all the time. I'm not suggesting you do it, either. It's up to you. Only you know.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Reply #19)

Sun Oct 24, 2021, 04:50 PM

37. I agree with YOU here! We CANNOT bury our head in the sand

We do not have time. THEY will completely destroy us and we will not be able to recover. I feel like half our law enforcers are in their fucking corner. Maybe half our armed forces as well. Manchin and Sinema have got to see what's at stake here it's probably our last hope.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Reply #19)

Thu Nov 4, 2021, 09:12 PM

38. I sometimes refer to Democrats and Liberals in 2021 as "hope fiends"

Back in the day the phrase "dope fiends" was used to describe drug addicts, and in many ways I view Democrats and Liberals here in 2021 as "hope fiends". I am sure there are some in the House and the Senate that see what is coming, that fully understand that on January 6th we were a hair's breadth away from an authoritarian coup. But many others simply toddle along - after all "it can't happen here", not in the USA. They think that the Constitution will magically protect us and that soon a Hero will appear to save us all.

The reality is that we ARE at war, just as surely as we were at war after the first shot was fired at Fort Sumter. One of the big reasons the Authoritarian Right is winning the war is that they learned early and well how to use the most powerful weapon ever invented - the Internet. They can spread their poison to tens of millions almost instantly. All the while many Americans apathetically keep their noses in the electronic toys that will ultimately enslave them.

While a union movement can surely help, the first step is acceptance of reality - Americans have to understand that we are fighting the greatest battle of our lifetimes, and that the stakes are greater than anyone can even imagine at this point. I fear that for many it will be sometime after the coup of 2024 before they well and truly comprehend.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sun Oct 24, 2021, 11:06 AM

20. kentuck.....

I had one friend who is in the "QAnon" cult and we haven't spoke in a year and a month.

I had another close and childhood friend who is a huge dt'er and we haven't spoken (except on a group call with other friends) in about 1-1/2 years. She lives in North Carolina and I'm in CA. We've grown apart over the years but used to talk about once every couple of months. No more.....

Thank God ALL of my friends here are totally progressive. We're all LGBGT and some are fearful about our futures.

A good friend sent an email yesterday to about 10 of us regarding places we could relocate to in case the worst happens. Portugal seems to be a viable option. I'm in the process of renewing my passport now. My understanding is there's currently somewhat of a wait (six - eight weeks) so I've encouraged folks to not wait until the last minute.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sun Oct 24, 2021, 11:35 AM

26. If you want to see one aspect of what "sane America" is up against, and you haven't already,

go to YouTube and search for "Iowa Klepper." Choose the most recent one, then prepare for outrage, disbelief or disillusionment, if that's still possible. It's worse than you might think.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BobTheSubgenius (Reply #26)

Sun Oct 24, 2021, 12:16 PM

28. It's a cult.

No doubt.

But they have been led to believe their ignorance has value.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Reply #28)

Sun Oct 24, 2021, 02:23 PM

35. Just ask them - it's not a cult.

They said so, right in the piece.

My favourite quote about ignorance and politics is that "my ignorance is every bit as valid as your knowledge." I might be misquoting, but I'm lazy this afternoon.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sun Oct 24, 2021, 12:37 PM

30. The 'Haves' biggest fear is the 'Have-Nots' joining as one.

There will always be a decisive tool used to keep people fighting each other.

This point in time the division is getting out of control and is reaching the point in which the ‘haves’ are planning how to survive a calamity *and* profit off it. IMO.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Baked Potato (Reply #30)

Sun Oct 24, 2021, 01:04 PM

32. Yes, but many of the people in the cult are not a member of the "Haves".

In fact, most of them are in the "have nots" category. It takes a special level of ignorance to think they are members of the "Haves" or that the "Haves" care one whit about them.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to llmart (Reply #32)

Sun Oct 24, 2021, 01:24 PM

34. I agree with your point, I am suggesting

the ‘Haves’ are using mass social conditioning techniques to keep ‘Have-nots’ fighting each other.

For instance, right now it’s ‘ to vaccinate, or not.’ And that one is being used worldwide.

Racism, misogyny, homophobia, religion, all can be weaponized for control.

We all want the same things: Safety, security, happiness. If those ‘wants and needs’ can be jeopardized or threatened, people can be divided.

Obviously, a lot of good people in the world can be considered ‘Haves.’ The ones I speak of are the ones with evil intent. Wealth is all relevant. The evil ‘Haves’ have the power to use systems to keep the “people” divided. It’s in their interests.

The ‘have-nots’ in the cult are unfortunately fighting and dying for the wrong side. You’re right, the ‘Haves’ don’t care about them.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sun Oct 24, 2021, 04:29 PM

36. In choosing to read the OP as a broad overlook,

we, as in all of us: ... we [as a people] could stand back and look at it from afar, ...

I have to agree. I think it should haunt us.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread