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Tue Oct 12, 2021, 02:37 PM

Everyone should pay their taxes, even low income earners. Having said that, want to lose 300 Seats?

For fuck sakes...

I know that the right will exaggerate the new IRS data reporting requirements. In fact, Politifact is already debunking GOP claims about it.

However... the very idea, the notion of increased scrutiny of lower income Americans is unbelievable.

Want to scrutinize the single Mom who sells homemade candles at the Farmer's Market? Your dog walker? Maybe the student who makes logos on Fiverr?

We talk a lot about bringing Billionaires to heel and creating a more FAIR tax system and then we do shit like this...

I'm sorry... it's bad optics.

And bad optics lose elections.

61 replies, 2382 views

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Reply Everyone should pay their taxes, even low income earners. Having said that, want to lose 300 Seats? (Original post)
WarGamer Oct 12 OP
lagomorph777 Oct 12 #1
WarGamer Oct 12 #3
bullwinkle428 Oct 12 #11
subterranean Oct 12 #12
gojoe12 Oct 12 #38
kelly1mm Oct 12 #47
gojoe12 Oct 12 #49
kelly1mm Oct 12 #51
gojoe12 Oct 12 #54
kelly1mm Oct 12 #55
Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Oct 12 #52
subterranean Oct 12 #57
MichMan Oct 14 #60
Hassin Bin Sober Oct 12 #59
lagomorph777 Oct 12 #13
WarGamer Oct 12 #15
lagomorph777 Oct 12 #18
DFW Oct 12 #26
jimfields33 Oct 12 #6
bullwinkle428 Oct 12 #2
WarGamer Oct 12 #4
hlthe2b Oct 12 #7
Celerity Oct 12 #30
Act_of_Reparation Oct 12 #45
hlthe2b Oct 12 #5
WarGamer Oct 12 #8
DFW Oct 12 #14
lagomorph777 Oct 12 #20
durablend Oct 12 #22
DFW Oct 12 #28
rog Oct 12 #37
hlthe2b Oct 12 #39
rog Oct 12 #46
hlthe2b Oct 12 #53
herding cats Oct 12 #9
WarGamer Oct 12 #10
herding cats Oct 12 #29
Chin music Oct 12 #34
herding cats Oct 12 #43
madinmaryland Oct 12 #50
Captain Stern Oct 12 #16
MacKasey Oct 12 #17
WarGamer Oct 12 #21
MacKasey Oct 12 #19
WhiskeyGrinder Oct 12 #23
Patton French Oct 12 #24
madville Oct 12 #25
HUAJIAO Oct 12 #27
Elwood P Dowd Oct 12 #31
Celerity Oct 12 #33
LiberalFighter Oct 12 #42
herding cats Oct 12 #44
Sympthsical Oct 12 #32
S/V Loner Oct 12 #35
Chin music Oct 12 #36
Autumn Oct 12 #56
fescuerescue Oct 12 #40
LiberalFighter Oct 12 #41
kelly1mm Oct 12 #48
LiberalFighter Oct 12 #58
SKKY Oct 14 #61

Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 02:38 PM

1. What story are you referencing? Haven't heard about it.

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Response to lagomorph777 (Reply #1)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 02:41 PM

3. Here

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/11/business/irs-bank-accounts.html

When the Biden administration looked for ways to pay for the president’s expansive social policy bill, it proposed raising revenue by cracking down on $7 trillion in unpaid taxes, mostly from wealthy Americans and businesses.

To help find those funds, the administration wants banks to give the Internal Revenue Service new details on their customers and provide data for accounts with total annual deposits or withdrawals worth more than $600. That has sparked an uproar among banks and Republican lawmakers, who say giving the I.R.S. such power would be an enormous breach of privacy and government overreach.

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Response to WarGamer (Reply #3)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 02:53 PM

11. Okay, this helps a great deal. Not to be "DU hall monitor", but I try to put my

source material in any OP I post to give anyone the best opportunity to comment "yay or nay" if they're interested enough.

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Response to WarGamer (Reply #3)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 02:53 PM

12. The first and second paragraphs seem to contradict each other.

First it says the Biden administration proposed cracking down on mostly "wealthy Americans and businesses."

Then it says the administration wants more data on accounts with annual deposits or withdrawals more than $600. That would include not just wealthy Americans, but almost everyone who has a bank account.

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Response to subterranean (Reply #12)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 04:37 PM

38. It's not a good idea

and it will hurt middle class American. Anyone doing a cash business. Food coach, Farmers, small Businesses like lawn care or tree services.
I can think of a few times I had work done in my house and I would get two prices, one for cash and the other for check. Do you want the IRS monitoring your bank account?

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Response to gojoe12 (Reply #38)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 08:04 PM

47. Are you suggesting that some businesses not have to report and pay taxes on their income? NT

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Response to kelly1mm (Reply #47)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 08:14 PM

49. Yes nt

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Response to gojoe12 (Reply #49)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 08:16 PM

51. ok then! Perhaps we should end all income taxes on businesses as they would then offer a 'cash

discount'? Isn't this argument similar to the RW argument that taxes on businesses only result in higher costs on consumers?

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Response to kelly1mm (Reply #51)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 08:22 PM

54. I wouldn't know nt

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Response to gojoe12 (Reply #54)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 08:26 PM

55. well is seems that your argument that some businesses should not have to report income

so that they can pass on the savings they would be paying in income/self employment taxes to their customers would suggest that taxes paid by businesses are simply passed on to customers. At least that is what I am understanding from your comments about a 'cash price' from contractors. If i am mistaken please clarify?

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Response to subterranean (Reply #12)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 08:18 PM

52. They're talking about moving that number up to $10,000

That makes more sense.

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Response to Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin (Reply #52)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 10:13 PM

57. Good. Although banks already do that now, if I'm not mistaken.

Banks are already required to report deposits of more than $10,000. I think that rule was established under the Patriot Act, as I recall. So raising the threshold from $600 to $10,000 wouldn't really change much from the status quo.

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Response to subterranean (Reply #57)

Thu Oct 14, 2021, 07:32 PM

60. Only $10k in CASH either deposited in or taken out in a transaction is reported now

This new proposal as originally written included ALL account activities of any kind; either cash or checks.

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Response to subterranean (Reply #12)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 10:57 PM

59. What's new? They get the gold mine we get the shaft.

On paper they go after both but who do you think the IRS will target? Someone with truly hideable income and lawyers up the wazoo or some poor slob with a side hustle and a easily garnishable paycheck?

One takes years and lawyers and resources. The other takes a certified letter.

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Response to WarGamer (Reply #3)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 02:56 PM

13. Maybe they meant to say "$600K" ?

$600 is a gift to the GOP.

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Response to lagomorph777 (Reply #13)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 02:57 PM

15. Nope, it's $600. Confirmed.

They even want Venmo and Paypal and other CashApps to report to the IRS.

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Response to WarGamer (Reply #15)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 03:00 PM

18. God damn it. That is fucking suicide.

WTF?

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Response to lagomorph777 (Reply #18)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 03:24 PM

26. They're doing it here in Europe, too, especially Germany

They lowered the reportable cash transaction threshold from €10,000 to €2,000, and in some neighboring countries, it's down to €1000. Every time your want some small change, if you go to a bank to change a €200 or even a €100 bill for some tens and twenties, you have to give (and register) your ID and/or bank account.

The East German Gestapo, the "Stasi," collected so much information on its citizens that it drowned in its mountain of collected data on them. For this past election, the Social Democrats resurrected their tired slogan, "more justice," and it is looking like what they meant was a repeat of the East German form of universal surveillance. It catapulted them all the way to an "overpowering" 25.7% of the vote--what a mandate! And the others did even worse! The more the people get tired of being watched like this, the more a state seems to think they need it. When will they ever learn?

In Germany, massive amounts of drug money are laundered though fictitious taxi companies with no passengers, video game parlors with no customers, and pizzerias that never sell food. They bring hundreds of thousands of euros of "sales" in small (5-10-20-50) bills to the banks every week, fully declared. They pay their taxes--after deducting their substantial personnel expenses, of course--and everyone is happy. So who does the government go after? Anyone using a few €500 euro bills to buy a used car or a couple of gold coins to put away. The money launderers get a free ride (also--if harassed, they shoot back, whereas the used car buyer does not). The Germans hate it, except, it would seem, for their politicians. I really hope the USA doesn't go down the same road.

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Response to lagomorph777 (Reply #1)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 02:43 PM

6. The 600 dollar requirement that banks are required to submit on every american

with a bank account.

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Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 02:41 PM

2. Can you please at least cite a news source as a basis for a hair-on-fire OP?

Thanks in advance.

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Response to bullwinkle428 (Reply #2)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 02:42 PM

4. see above... note they're also cracking down on Cash Apps like Venmo.

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Response to bullwinkle428 (Reply #2)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 02:43 PM

7. I can assure you this is NOT "hair-on-fire," and it will kill us in the midterms if it happens.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #7)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 03:43 PM

30. +1

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Response to bullwinkle428 (Reply #2)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 05:48 PM

45. Nothing is wrong.

Nothing is ever wrong. We never make mistakes or get blindsided by anything.

Thanks in retrospect.

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Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 02:42 PM

5. I agree with you. Requiring banks to report on as little as $600 transactions is nuts...

and it will be irreversibly punitive on poor people--at least those who can even obtain a bank account, but can't afford the accountants to combat real or errant IRS claims. When they live paycheck to paycheck and risk a garnishment of their bank account of their last remaining paycheck, maybe the flood of newly homeless people will teach some clueless a lesson (and that includes those on OUR side--even, perhaps a few DUers).

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #5)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 02:47 PM

8. Thanks!

Yeah it's unreal.

Warrant and Subpoena-free access to 90%+ of American bank accounts.

Magnificent.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #5)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 02:57 PM

14. This scheme is so nuts, it almost sounds like some Republican strategist had it introduced

Maybe some Frank Luntz type noticed a flurry of posts about rich people, and said, "hey, the Democrats are calling anyone with enough money to open a bank account an evil billionaire! Lets sneak some clause into some bill that will make life so burdensome to most of them that they'll get furious and vote against their own people just for implementing it!"

They might even be right. I'd never vote for a Republican these days, but I'd certainly be tempted not to vote for any Democrat foolish enough to burden his or her constituents with such a silly law.

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Response to DFW (Reply #14)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 03:01 PM

20. Exactly right.

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Response to DFW (Reply #14)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 03:06 PM

22. Manchin or Sinema's fingerprints on it?

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Response to durablend (Reply #22)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 03:26 PM

28. Doubtful

This is control freak stuff. Manchin and "Cinema" lean the other way.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #5)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 04:28 PM

37. Just a question, re: the $600.

Is this regarding individual transactions over $600, or is it regarding all money in or out of an account over total $600 for the year. I am reading it as all cash flow in or out of an account in excess of $600 on a yearly basis. Is that correct?

Thanks ...

.rog.

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Response to rog (Reply #37)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 04:37 PM

39. That is equally egregious, if not worse, but here are the facts from politifact:

The American Rescue Plan Act, which Congress passed in March, has a provision that will require cash apps like Venmo, PayPal and Zelle to file information reports on commercial transactions over $600. It goes into effect Jan. 1. Previously, cash apps were required to report only business transactions over $20,000 for accounts with at least 200 separate payments in a calendar year.

A separate Biden administration proposal concerns traditional bank accounts as well as cash apps. If implemented, it would require financial institutions to report the total amount of deposits and withdrawals from most bank accounts that exceed $600.

The proposal doesn’t track individual withdrawals, deposits or transactions in bank accounts, or transactions or payments made on cash apps such as Venmo or Paypal, the Treasury Department said.



Paragraph 2 ("MOST Bank accounts" ) has been previously reported (I've seen it on both MSM and reputable websites) to include individual accounts--noncommercial, so the quote from the supposed Treasury Department seems at odds. Regardless, the potential impact on very small businesses could be devastating.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #39)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 07:59 PM

46. So here's my confusion, re: the above ...

When they say, "... report the total amount of deposits and withdrawals from most bank accounts that exceed $600," does that mean that, once you exceed $600 worth of activity ... deposits and/or withdrawals ... everything after that gets tracked, no matter how many transactions? If so, that would mean tracking every $50 deposit, every grocery shopping trip, every trip to Walgreens, etc.

Maybe I'm way off base???

... or do they mean only individual transactions over $600 each?

.rog.

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Response to rog (Reply #46)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 08:19 PM

53. re:

For a targeted bank account (or app) the total number of deposits (for which each deposit tallied exceeds $600.00) and similarly the total number of withdrawals meeting that same criterion.

The issue is whether these bank accounts will/can include individual and not limited to business/commercial accounts. What has been reporting contradicts this politico supposed unnamed Treasury source who claims no. While small businesses should also be quite upset about this, the real issue is on individuals. The lack of response to the press from WH, Congress, or a named source in the Treasury is disturbing or negligent or both.

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Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 02:50 PM

9. It's not good optics.

People don't want to think the IRS is watching their every little move, and $600 is truly a small transaction.

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Response to herding cats (Reply #9)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 02:52 PM

10. Yup...

And it's probably too late to counter it.

Even if it's left out of the final legislation, you'll see TV ads "Biden and the Dems pushing IRS to have access to all American bank accounts..."

Instead... the Dems need to announce that increased funding to the IRS is ONLY for increased enforcement in the $250k+ bracket...

Possibly even include IRS tax forgiveness for lower income people who owe small amounts.

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Response to WarGamer (Reply #10)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 03:39 PM

29. We will lose in an epic fashion if this is implemented.

This, in essence as it stands now, gives the IRS potential access to almost every American's banking records. To say people are going to flip out and react strongly in an adverse fashion is an understatement. People will be scared to deposit the monies from the sale of furniture, garage sales, etc.

Even if it's not it will still cost us votes, just hopefully not as many. It was politically one of the most ignorant things I've ever seen. Mitigation of something like this will be difficult and only partially effective.

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Response to herding cats (Reply #9)


Response to Chin music (Reply #34)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 05:42 PM

43. I completely agree.

I saw this being brandied about originally Thursday morning and knew then it was political suicide when I read it then.

The majority of Americans will not want the IRS to have potential to spotlight them for their $600 transactions. No way, no how is this going to be treated with open arms.

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Response to herding cats (Reply #9)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 08:15 PM

50. If it includes my paycheck, every two weeks they'll have something to examine as I am a slight bit

Over that amount. $15/hr biweekly will be over $600. Absolutely insane.

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Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 03:00 PM

16. I don't want banks reporting $600 transactions.

That said, I'm not sure that is what is even really being proposed by anyone.

But, if that is the case, I'm against it....regardless of who is proposing it.

I prefer to at least have the illusion that I have something that is a reasonable facsimile of actual privacy.

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Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 03:00 PM

17. check article on politifact

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Response to MacKasey (Reply #17)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 03:03 PM

21. Correct.

But it's a red flag and the IRS can follow up the red flags.

Saying it's summary and not detailed is a red herring.

Didn't claim income on the candles you made at home and sold at the Farmer's Market?

Bank Reports a red flag, red flag leads to IRS investigation and you get a tax bill for your income.

Like I said... everyone should pay taxes but you really want to scrutinize low income Americans?

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Response to WarGamer (Original post)


Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 03:08 PM

23. Huh.

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Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 03:16 PM

24. Bizarre..

The real money is at the top, not in $600 transactions.

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Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 03:19 PM

25. They are also trying catch the folks day trading crypto currency

There are billions, maybe trillions, of dollars in crypto currency transactions currently flying around that the IRS is missing out on. They are trying to figure out a way to get folks to pay taxes on their profits, the flags those frequent transactions throw up may help them with that.

The $600 annual transaction amount does mean the IRS will get info on basically every bank account which most people won’t like the idea of.

Everyone that could might just transfer $600+ from their checking to savings account everyday or even multiple times a day lol, make the data so muddled it’s useless.

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Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 03:24 PM

27. How freaking politically dumb is that !!



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Response to HUAJIAO (Reply #27)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 03:44 PM

31. You have to be really serious about committing political suicide

to even mention an idea like that.

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Response to HUAJIAO (Reply #27)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 03:50 PM

33. I'll take 'Things that could be another coffin nail for Dems in 2022' for 500 Alex (600 is a no go)

The American Rescue Plan Act, which Congress passed in March, has a provision that will require cash apps like Venmo, PayPal and Zelle to file information reports on commercial transactions over $600. It goes into effect Jan. 1. Previously, cash apps were required to report only business transactions over $20,000 for accounts with at least 200 separate payments in a calendar year.

A separate Biden administration proposal concerns traditional bank accounts as well as cash apps. If implemented, it would require financial institutions to report the total amount of deposits and withdrawals from most bank accounts that exceed $600.

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Response to Celerity (Reply #33)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 05:37 PM

42. I doubt it. Banks already report interest and other info to the IRS.

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Response to LiberalFighter (Reply #42)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 05:45 PM

44. They report interest over $10 and transactions over $10k

Not transactions so small the majority of Americans will see themselves as potential targets.

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Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 03:45 PM

32. And guess who IRS bureaucrats will target because it's easier?

Want to look like you're getting work done, but don't want the hassle of lawyers getting involved?

Enjoy, Walmart baggers!

This is one of the dumbest things I have ever seen.

Hope everyone enjoys the next year of having Congress. Because that is gonna change if this is in there.

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Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 04:03 PM

35. Maybe brought to us by the same people that...

gave us the "Defund the Police" slogan.

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Response to S/V Loner (Reply #35)


Response to S/V Loner (Reply #35)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 08:41 PM

56. You mean Janet Yellen's Treasury department? The Treasury Department made the proposal in May 2021.

The proposal
The Treasury Department made the proposal in May 2021. The Senate Finance and House Ways and Means committees could adopt it as part of budget reconciliation legislation they are considering.

Under the measure, financial institutions would be required to annually report gross inflows and outflows from all business and personal accounts — including bank, loan and investment accounts — if the inflows and outflows of an account total at least $600 in a year, or if the account has a fair market value of at least $600.


https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/sep/15/infowars/biden-plan-require-more-bank-account-reporting-irs/

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Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 04:47 PM

40. Billionaires use Venmo too

Can't leave them an out!

Take at look at your Venmo feed.

You'll see stuff like:

"Mary paid Jill $50 for hair cut"
"Tom paid mark $30 for knife sharpening"
"Jeff paid Elon $600 million for paintings and party supplies"

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Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 05:20 PM

41. The first $12,550 for a single person is exempt from taxes.

That is the minimum amount regardless of income amount.

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Response to LiberalFighter (Reply #41)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 08:13 PM

48. Exempt from Federal Income taxes but NOT from Self Employment taxes. The SE tax on $12,550

would be approximately $1924.

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Response to kelly1mm (Reply #48)

Tue Oct 12, 2021, 10:49 PM

58. Self Employment taxes consists of Social Security and Medicare

the portion that employers pay. Which THAT employer will benefit when they retire.

That is a different type of tax.

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Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Thu Oct 14, 2021, 07:42 PM

61. So, yea, it's bad politics, but there are several transactions that are exempt from reporting...

...the biggest of those being payroll transactions. So, that would pretty much cover everyone you mentioned who may be subject to scrutiny.

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