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Thu Oct 7, 2021, 02:06 PM

"Manchin demands progressives pick only 1 of 3 family policy priorities"




So, Manchin is making it clear he wants to kill programs regardless even if his bottom line funding number is met.

Is this actually a popular position with moderate and centrist Democrats?






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Reply "Manchin demands progressives pick only 1 of 3 family policy priorities" (Original post)
bluewater Oct 7 OP
CentralMass Oct 7 #1
bluewater Oct 7 #6
CentralMass Oct 7 #17
area51 Oct 7 #77
FBaggins Oct 7 #2
bluewater Oct 7 #4
qazplm135 Oct 7 #18
bluewater Oct 7 #19
FBaggins Oct 7 #20
bluewater Oct 7 #31
FBaggins Oct 7 #38
wellst0nev0ter Oct 7 #43
bluewater Oct 7 #46
FBaggins Oct 7 #52
wellst0nev0ter Oct 7 #71
bluewater Oct 7 #79
FBaggins Oct 7 #51
wellst0nev0ter Oct 7 #70
redstatebluegirl Oct 7 #3
Omnipresent Oct 7 #23
Scrivener7 Oct 7 #5
Hortensis Oct 7 #24
C_U_L8R Oct 7 #7
Fiendish Thingy Oct 7 #8
bluewater Oct 7 #10
Fiendish Thingy Oct 7 #49
Irish_Dem Oct 7 #13
qazplm135 Oct 7 #16
Irish_Dem Oct 7 #21
qazplm135 Oct 7 #28
Chin music Oct 7 #32
Irish_Dem Oct 7 #33
CentralMass Oct 7 #30
Fiendish Thingy Oct 7 #45
CentralMass Oct 7 #59
Fiendish Thingy Oct 7 #60
CentralMass Oct 7 #63
leftstreet Oct 7 #9
maxsolomon Oct 7 #11
leftstreet Oct 7 #14
maxsolomon Oct 7 #35
Hortensis Oct 7 #26
leftstreet Oct 7 #54
Hortensis Oct 7 #62
Calista241 Oct 7 #29
FreepFryer Oct 7 #12
Carlitos Brigante Oct 7 #15
jalan48 Oct 7 #22
msongs Oct 7 #25
Fullduplexxx Oct 7 #27
Chin music Oct 7 #34
BeckyDem Oct 7 #36
Silent3 Oct 7 #37
regnaD kciN Oct 7 #39
PA_jen Oct 7 #40
aocommunalpunch Oct 7 #41
BeckyDem Oct 7 #42
bluewater Oct 7 #50
Celerity Oct 7 #53
BeckyDem Oct 7 #57
Klaralven Oct 7 #44
mathematic Oct 7 #47
CentralMass Oct 7 #64
FBaggins Oct 7 #65
CentralMass Oct 7 #68
FBaggins Oct 7 #72
FBaggins Oct 7 #66
spanone Oct 7 #48
apnu Oct 7 #55
Silent3 Oct 7 #56
Celerity Oct 7 #58
Hekate Oct 7 #61
FBaggins Oct 7 #67
Generic Brad Oct 7 #69
Takket Oct 7 #73
Rhiannon12866 Oct 7 #74
Mr.Bill Oct 7 #76
Rhiannon12866 Oct 7 #78
sarcasmo Oct 7 #75
Wounded Bear Oct 7 #80

Response to bluewater (Original post)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 02:10 PM

1. It depends on the level of sycophancy of the individual.

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Response to CentralMass (Reply #1)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 02:15 PM

6. One person is calling fully funding all programs for fewer years an "accounting gimmick"

The notion that "we'll just implement all the same policies and use an accounting gimmick to look like we hit whatever number he gives us" was never plausible.


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Response to bluewater (Reply #6)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 02:34 PM

17. The Bottom line is that Manchin, who along with Sinema, are the only two out of

48 who dont support Biden's $3. 5 trillion dollar budget is now dictating what should be cut. Manchin is an impediment. His is acting like an agent representing the GOP. Trying to characterize his actions to be based on some noble Democratic conservatism is bullshit.

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Response to CentralMass (Reply #17)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 09:47 PM

77. +1 n/t

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Response to bluewater (Original post)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 02:11 PM

2. No surprise there

The notion that "we'll just implement all the same policies and use an accounting gimmick to look like we hit whatever number he gives us" was never plausible.

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Response to FBaggins (Reply #2)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 02:12 PM

4. What "accounting gimmick"?

The notion that "we'll just implement all the same policies and use an accounting gimmick to look like we hit whatever number he gives us" was never plausible.


Since when is fully funding all the programs for fewer years an "accounting gimmick"?



I'm not going to entertain that as a serious argument worthy of further discussion.

Good day.

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Response to bluewater (Reply #4)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 02:34 PM

18. don't waste your time

not a serious argument.

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Response to qazplm135 (Reply #18)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 02:35 PM

19. ikr

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Response to bluewater (Reply #4)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 02:35 PM

20. What else would you call it?

Everyone knows that there's no intention of actually canceling a program just because you only budget for it for a limited number of years... and of course the tax increases get scored over the entire ten years.

If he's worried about too much spending, does anyone really expect him to say "Oh... you're not creating a new benefit? Just a temporary one for two years? Okey dokey." ?


I'm not going to entertain that as a serious argument worthy of further discussion.
You've been doing quite a bit of that dodging of late. Getting dizzy?

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Response to FBaggins (Reply #20)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 02:49 PM

31. Um, its called fully funding all the programs for fewer years. Pretty clear, no?

When the money runs out, the program stops.

If people wish the program to continue, more funding must be allocated.

But everyone knows that's how funding programs works, right?

The issue Manchin and others have with that is they are afraid the programs will be popular and that voters will want them to continue and back further funding.

But, hey, if anyone wants to try and call normal program funding an "accounting gimmick", that's just a bit too disingenuous for my taste.

So, once again, I am done.


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Response to bluewater (Reply #31)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 03:04 PM

38. Such an odd notion of "done"

It appears to translate to “I can only debate straw men… so please don’t reply”

“Disingenuous” here is the ridiculous notion that Manchin/Sinema didn’t actually object to the totality of new spending… only what it would cost over some artificial period.

Why not pass everything and just score it through next November? Then with the tax increases we could pretend that it was really a massive deficit reduction bill?

Accounting gimmick is exactly what it was… and it never had much chance of passing muster with either of the holdouts:

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Response to FBaggins (Reply #38)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 03:37 PM

43. And the $1.5 trillion BIF is over five years

Another accounting gimmick, right?

I swear to god, these objections are now being made out of thin air.

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #43)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 03:45 PM

46. The Definition of Sophistry is...

sophistry

[ˈsäfəstrē]
NOUN

the use of fallacious arguments, especially with the intention of deceiving.
"trying to argue that I had benefited in any way from the disaster was pure sophistry"
synonyms:
trickery · deviousness · deceit · deception · dishonesty · cheating · duplicity · guile · cunning · artfulness · wiliness · craft · craftiness · evasion · slyness · chicanery · intrigue · subterfuge · strategy · bluff · pretense · fraud · fraudulence · sharp practice

a fallacious argument.
synonyms:
specious reasoning · the use of fallacious arguments · sophism · casuistry · quibbling · equivocation · fallaciousness · fallacious argument · fallacy · quibble · paralogism



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Response to bluewater (Reply #46)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 04:14 PM

52. Now do "done"

Should be entertaining

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Response to bluewater (Reply #46)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 07:53 PM

71. I like arguing in circles

Not a waste of my time at all

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #71)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 10:30 PM

79. lol

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #43)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 04:13 PM

51. Not at all

How would that even make sense? “Hard” infrastructure projects don’t create ongoing programs. You build the bridge and it’s done. You can’t build half a bridge and cut the calculated expense in half. If someone wants to reduce the BIF, they have to pave fewer miles of road.

By contrast - you can’t create universal pre-k and pretend that it just exists for two years so that’s all we’ll fund.

You can swear to whatever you like - but you can’t pretend that something costs less just because you’ve decided to only look at part of the program. The accounting gimmick would have been an entirely transparent attempt to get everything we wanted but make it look cheaper.

Do you really think that Manchin doesn’t know that if he votes for a $1.5T version of the plan that is unchanged over the original except in the number of years… that he isn’t effectively voting for $3.5t (really more because the original proposal already implements over time or sunsets some programs)?

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Response to FBaggins (Reply #51)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 07:51 PM

70. "Because infrastructure maintains itself and is self-sustaining"

Also, it takes $4.6 trillion to fix all the infrastructure, but we're okay with $1.5T and five years

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Response to bluewater (Original post)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 02:11 PM

3. BS he has so many poor people in his state who need help!

What an awful Senator!

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Response to redstatebluegirl (Reply #3)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 02:37 PM

23. West Virginian's need to bombard his offices, with...

Signs that say, “Read the polls Joe, West Virginia needs help!”.

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Response to bluewater (Original post)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 02:13 PM

5. Of course it isn't a popular position. Saying he is in opposition to progressives rather than he

is in opposition to the vast majority of Democrats is a much better way to foment division within the party, though.

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Response to Scrivener7 (Reply #5)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 02:37 PM

24. I think he's distracting WV conservatives away from their own support

for these policies by painting them as "progressive" extremism.

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Response to bluewater (Original post)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 02:17 PM

7. Manchin this, Senator

Isn’t everyone done with this self-serving flat-headed weasel.

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Response to bluewater (Original post)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 02:20 PM

8. Stop listening to what Manchin says, only watch what he actually does

Manchin is reacting to Sanders’ press conference yesterday demanding that Manchin state specifically what he supports and what he wants to cut. This is Manchin’s way of saying “fuck you, Bernie, here’s a Sophie’s Choice for you”.

I will be surprised if this has much impact on the final results of the negotiations.

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Response to Fiendish Thingy (Reply #8)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 02:26 PM

10. Manchin has repeatedly said he does not want to expand the social safety net.

He has warned us all now multiple times that his objection isn't just over a bottom line funding level.

I appreciate your viewpoint, but I think Manchin will continue to oppose enacting all the programs in President Biden's Build Back Better agenda.

Time will tell.

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Response to bluewater (Reply #10)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 03:51 PM

49. No stalemates or impasse reported yet, just a frustration with lack of specifics.

If Manchin balks at countering the rest of the Dems positions, The committees would be left to bring their reports to the floor for debate and approval/rejection. Then Manchin would have to actually do something, in the form of taking a stand and voting for/against making the committee’s report part of the bill. So would Sinema.

Manchin is trying force the Dems into a Sophie’s Choice, and they’re not having it. He will either have to negotiate in good faith, with specific counteroffers, in private, or be forced to block the committees’ reports when they come to the floor.

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Response to Fiendish Thingy (Reply #8)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 02:29 PM

13. So you think Manchin is not sincere, but just doing kabuki theater for his donors?

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #13)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 02:33 PM

16. I think Manchin

should get to work on negotiating. I think Sinema should get to work negotiating.

I think they should be prepared to give up at least something as opposed to requiring that the other side keep giving up things until t hey are happy.

I think I've heard enough talk, I'd like to see some work getting done. I'd like to see everyone STFU until they have an actual deal or at least the outlines of a deal ready. We know full well where everyone more or less stands. They've made their points and the news clear. Enough. Get to work.

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Response to qazplm135 (Reply #16)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 02:36 PM

21. But we don't know who they are really working for.

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #21)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 02:48 PM

28. I assume

themselves.

Regardless, I'm tired of hearing about Dem disunity coming from our own side.

Do your fighting in private. Be team players.

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Response to qazplm135 (Reply #28)


Response to qazplm135 (Reply #28)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 02:57 PM

33. I am beyond tired of it too.

However I am not sure the two senators in question will stop playing games any time soon.

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Response to Fiendish Thingy (Reply #8)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 02:49 PM

30. What does that mean at this point ? What he has done is openly state he will not vote for this

bill that President Biden and 48 of the 50 members in the caucus want.
We are watching what he does.

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Response to CentralMass (Reply #30)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 03:43 PM

45. The actual sausage making (of which these statements are not a part of) happens in private

I have yet to hear of any leaks that the process is stalled or the sides are at an impasse.

Manchin is trying to force the rest of the Dems to negotiate with themselves, but it’s not working.

There will be a bill that he votes yes on.

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Response to Fiendish Thingy (Reply #45)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 04:41 PM

59. What will be left of the bill after his demands are met ?

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Response to CentralMass (Reply #59)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 04:44 PM

60. Who says his demands will be met?

As Sanders said yesterday, he could demand that the bill include Medicare for all, but it wouldn’t make into the final bill, even if he threatened to block the bill.

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Response to Fiendish Thingy (Reply #60)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 04:59 PM

63. The bill has already been watered down at least once due to Sinema and Manchin's

Last edited Thu Oct 7, 2021, 05:34 PM - Edit history (1)

stated refusal to vote for it.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/04/politics/progressives-biden-spending-package/index.html
"CNN)President Joe Biden said in a virtual meeting with a group of House progressives on Monday that the top line of the social safety net package needs to come down to somewhere between $1.9 trillion and $2.2 trillion, according to two sources familiar with the call.

Biden told the group, according to one of the sources, that was the range he felt Sens. Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema would accept but did not specify further within that range."

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Response to bluewater (Original post)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 02:21 PM

9. The GOP would never let a rogue rep do this

They'd threaten to strip them of committees, bully them, blackmail them...whatever it takes to force the party line discipline

Ugh
This is why Democrats lose

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #9)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 02:27 PM

11. Well, he's not a Congressional Rep

he's a Senator who knows he's got power to wreck everything.

Sen. Sanders wants him to SPECIFY which policies he objects to, instead of using generalities. This feels like another way to avoid specifics: pushing the choice back on to others.

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Response to maxsolomon (Reply #11)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 02:30 PM

14. Yes he's a Senator

My point was the GOP would never allow him to have the "power" to wreck their agenda

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #14)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 02:59 PM

35. I guess.

Has the GOP been in this situation previously? Only controlling the Senate because they also controlled the Vice Presidency? I don't think so, at least not during my life.

I'm trying to imagine a "moderate" like Romney (I hesitate to call him that) objecting to some GOP cruelty or giveaway in a bill, but I just can't.

Maybe our tent is just bigger and this frustration comes with that territory.

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #9)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 02:43 PM

26. Leftstreet, senators are FAR MORE POWERFUL than congressmen

They represent whole states, and their power comes from the people of those states, not from McConnell or Schumer. They're also elected for 6-year terms specifically to make them even more independent and harder to "bully. Stripping Manchin of his committee assignments wouldn't force him to move a centimeter on anything.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #26)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 04:30 PM

54. Maybe Schumer could get training from McConnell

You're not wrong, senators are powerful

Unless they're McConnell's senators

Schumer (and Pelosi in the House) have had YEARS of experience in "leadership," and yet again they're facing major losses in the midterms because people don't vote for weak representation

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #54)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 04:52 PM

62. McConnell's senators are all strong conservatives, most authoritarians,

either leaders or followers, and they've all been corrupted or were rotten from the start. The old-time GOP senators who wouldn't go along have been purged from power over the past 15-30 years, and some of them were replaced with outright sociopaths. Seriously.

There is no comparison of these lawless renegades with Democratic senators and our leadership, both in what they could and what they would do. Virtually all, or all, the Republican senators belong in prison for the rest of their lives. Also seriously.

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #9)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 02:48 PM

29. You don't think the Repubs would give him a chairmanship or two if he flipped parties?

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Response to bluewater (Original post)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 02:27 PM

12. It's also a formulation that allows him to keep his "1.x vs 3.x trillion" objection dynamic alive.

Manchin is working against the Democrats, he is not merely unaligned. He will work this angle right up until his thumbs up/down moment. We can’t forget Sinema’s.

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Response to bluewater (Original post)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 02:31 PM

15. I especially love his "entitlement society" comment. Is it not entitlement to demand

a state university lie about his no good, grifting daughter getting a degree she didn't earn. Did he feel entitled when university officials had to take the fall because of his corruption? I wish someone would ask him that.

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Response to bluewater (Original post)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 02:36 PM

22. The Fossil Fuel Industry has spoken.

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Response to bluewater (Original post)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 02:38 PM

25. like sinema he is unwilling to choose what he wants, dump responsibility on others nt

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Response to bluewater (Original post)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 02:45 PM

27. You pick it manchin you tell us what we're not allowed to have

notal

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Response to bluewater (Original post)


Response to bluewater (Original post)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 03:01 PM

36. Shameful.

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Response to bluewater (Original post)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 03:02 PM

37. I want to see a public debate featuring Sanders, Klobuchar, Manchin, and Sinema

Make them answer tough questions, in public, on the record.

Not that it will ever happen, but a man can dream.

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Response to bluewater (Original post)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 03:08 PM

39. The thing is, this can go on forever...

…unless Biden himself steps in and negotiates a settlement. And that might entail giving up a lot of BBB to placate two Senators, which I will hate, but which will mean we know what the POTUS himself views as non-negotiable. At that point, it can’t be framed as “Manchin and Sinema versus ‘the progressives’” – it will be them against their own president and their own party.

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Response to bluewater (Original post)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 03:12 PM

40. Who the Freak does he think he is to dictate the Biden agenda.


I am sorry but this is sick that a Senator is dictating to the President of the United States of his own party. And This to me is proof that Manchin knows the Build Back Better Plan would basically hurt his business and his bottom line. Some one needs to start running Ads airing all of Manchin's dirty laundry.

This is what humoring and playing along with Manchin and Sinema.

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Response to bluewater (Original post)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 03:17 PM

41. LMAO

GTFOH. He can say which programs he wants to CUT. My criticism is that he is acting cowardly.

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Response to bluewater (Original post)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 03:29 PM

42. Do they care that, today, the United States government ranks DEAD LAST in child care spending?

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Response to BeckyDem (Reply #42)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 03:52 PM

50. +1000

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Response to BeckyDem (Reply #42)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 04:27 PM

53. Melanoma Trump's Slovenia spends 23.3 TIMES more per child than the US on early childcare

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Response to Celerity (Reply #53)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 04:32 PM

57. omg. This situation has become so depressing. ugh

Last edited Thu Oct 7, 2021, 06:04 PM - Edit history (1)

We should have been able to celebrate.

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Response to bluewater (Original post)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 03:43 PM

44. I'd keep the high-quality child care and extend it to above 5 years of age

Child care is a problem for working families that we should actually try to solve, not just band aid it for the youngest kids.

Universal pre-school probably doesn't deliver much if you have good child care. Studies have shown that kids not going to pre-school rapidly catch up in first and second grade.

The 12-week family leave affects a small number of people for a short time. Not clear it solves anything. Lots of workers have some family leave now.

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Response to bluewater (Original post)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 03:46 PM

47. Another thread where people would rather Manchin decide where to spend $ than Sanders

Baffling.

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Response to mathematic (Reply #47)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 05:01 PM

64. Joe Biden and 48 Senator disagree vs Manchin

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Response to CentralMass (Reply #64)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 05:57 PM

65. And 52 senators disagree with Sanders

Guess how that normally works out?

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Response to FBaggins (Reply #65)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 06:59 PM

68. Again Sanders did not author this infrastructure bill and the President and 48 Senators

were onboard with the original $3.5 trillion dollar package. Sanders and the 48 are on board with the Presidents agenda. Your putting Sanders demands vs Mancins up as some argument doesn't make sense.

A quote from Sanders
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/biden-agenda-sanders-manchin-senate-democrats/2021/10/06/96fdee98-26e3-11ec-a6ad-9ee7deda7f34_story.html
"I could, in five minutes, go to Chuck Schumer, the Senate majority leader, and say, ‘Chuck, I can’t support this bill unless you have a Medicare-for-all provision.’ But I’m not going to do that,” Sanders said. “It is wrong and it is really not playing fair that one or two people think that they should be able to stop what 48 members of the Democratic caucus want, what the American people want, what the president of the United States wants.”

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Response to CentralMass (Reply #68)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 09:11 PM

72. Why does that matter?

He's the one making the "2 vs. 48" claim.

I could, in five minutes, go to Chuck Schumer, the Senate majority leader, and say, ‘Chuck, I can’t support this bill unless you have a Medicare-for-all provision.

No... he couldn't. Because there's a big difference between being one senator on the far left of the party vs being one senator in the middle of a 50/50 senate. If the question were Medicare for all. there would be 70 votes against Sanders... not 52. He would have zero chance of getting what he wanted... while Manchin is not at all in the same position.

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Response to mathematic (Reply #47)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 06:01 PM

66. I doubt that there's anyone her who would "rather let Manchin decide"

I think there are just a number who have recognized that a 50/50 Senate gave him the power to do so… and a number that are still dealing with the denial stage.

Living with reality is not at all the same thing as thinking things couldn’t be better.

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Response to bluewater (Original post)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 03:47 PM

48. I'm damn tired of him.

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Response to bluewater (Original post)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 04:31 PM

55. Manchin beats up strawman, gets winded. (nt)

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Response to bluewater (Original post)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 04:32 PM

56. Manchin's version of Sophie's Choice?

Kill two of your three priorities, or I kill them all?

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Response to Silent3 (Reply #56)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 04:35 PM

58. Manchin demands Biden, Democrats make 'Sophie's Choice' among plans for helping working families

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Response to bluewater (Original post)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 04:51 PM

61. Can I tell him to go to hell now?

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Response to Hekate (Reply #61)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 06:03 PM

67. Sure!

As long as you’re willing to live with the consequences that “Hell” involves McConnell taking over and the rest of us dealing with hell on earth.

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Response to bluewater (Original post)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 07:33 PM

69. That's still not specific enough

He has to tell us specifically who he hates and wants to fail so their wrath has an opportunity to come crashing down all around hum.

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Response to bluewater (Original post)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 09:25 PM

73. why is he asking fellow Democrats instead of his constituants which programs they don't want?

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Response to Rhiannon12866 (Reply #74)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 09:35 PM

76. We should put billboards all over his state

to let the people know which two programs he is denying to them.

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Response to Mr.Bill (Reply #76)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 09:57 PM

78. Good point, most people don't follow the news that closely...

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Response to bluewater (Original post)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 09:33 PM

75. Manchin only cares about 1/3 of the family programs. Beyond Frustrating.

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Response to bluewater (Original post)

Thu Oct 7, 2021, 10:59 PM

80. Manchin demands that Dems make Sophie's Choice on Biden't plan...

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