As a diabetic, I'm very tired of seeing diabetics compared to anti-vaxxers.

Although according to the Silmarillion, orcs didn't ask to be that way either.

But hell, orcs are as fictional as QAnon, so have at it.

They were infected by a madman and have no connection to the real world as we understand it.

brains are in high demand, but replaceable.

Should injured suicide bombers have the same or greater priority of care as their injured victims?

who are sick or injured get medical treatment.

Medicine is not politics. It is about treating the sick and the injured, regardless of who they are.

Unless you prefer the Third Reich model of declaring some people to be enemies and not deserving of health care.

I said I don't think they should get priority over their injured victims.

I don't think injured mass school shooters should get priority over the children they've shot up either.

You really think that makes me a Nazi? Whatever the fuck.

Both shooters and their victims get medical care after a mass shooting, unless the shooter commits suicide to avoid being captured, or is killed in the process of responding to the shooting.

I am concerned about the eagerness of many posters here (not you specifically) who cheer the deaths of unvaccinated people, or who call for them to be set aside, with blankets and food, to die.

It is a scary trend in thinking. Where does it stop when society decides that some people are not worthy of medical care?

I have suggested in several posts a solution of providing separate care for ALL covid patiebts, regardless of vaccine status, that would give them the care that they need, in separate facilities, like the TB sanitoriums of the past. This would keep regular hospitals available for the general population's non covid health care.

The usual response to that suggestion has been to just let the unvaccinated die without treatment. How foolishly short-sighted. Special facilities dedicated to covid treatment could also serve as research centers for the various strains of the virus, data collection on vulnerabilities, and clinical opportunities to develop and use anti viral treatments that might even benefit victims of other viral diseases. Such centers would be able to benefit everyone, regardless of vaccine status.

I am angry, too, over the refusal of some people to take precautions like vaccines and masking. I am angry at them for spreading the disease and being hosts for it to survive, spread, and mutate. I an furious over the deaths they have caused and consider them to be murderers.

But why not get some positive benefits out of their negative behavioral effects on society? Why not use treatment of their disease to benefit others instead of arguing over priorities of care? At the same time, we would preserve our own humanitarianism by refusing to give in to the temptation to deny treatment to some factions of society.

You might be better off worrying about the actual fascists who are on the verge of taking over the country.

worry about the "actual fascists" or that I am not intensely aware of what they are doing?

It really is possible to be aware of and concetned with both.

Washington State hospitals are overflowing because of anti-vaxxers being shipped in from Idaho. This means that people in need of emergency care or an ICU bed are having to scramble to find available units. Some localities are running short of oxygen, again because of unvaxx'ed Covid patients, which means those patients are being prioritized over those who need oxygen but weren't first in line. And "elective" procedures--such as reconstructive surgeries after accidents--are being delayed because of the shortage of beds. "Elective" seems to be taken by some as meaning "unnecessary" or even "frivolous," but someone having to delay their hip replacement or knee surgery is being asked to suffer additional pain for weeks or months because the care of Covid patients is now taking priority over their own.

Just this week a DU'er recounted their recent experience of being shunted from one locality to another because there wasn't a local ER available to treat their heart attack. In that case unvaccinated Covid patients were being given priority over someone suffering a life threatening emergency, someone who thankfully didn't die but instead went through the additional trauma of fearing they might die in the ambulance while trying to find an available ER. I know someone whose mother suffered a stroke who had the same experience. In cases like that minutes can mean the difference between life or death, or a full recovery versus life long disability. Why should the care of non-vaccinated Covid patients have priority over theirs?

And then there are people (such as myself) who have had more routine medical treatments delayed because the health care system is overwhelmed treating with this pandemic. And others, including people I know, who are in chemotherapy and have to deal not only with the stress of fighting a potentially lethal disease, but now the added stress of knowing that any interaction with the public, and any visit to the hospital, puts them at greatly heightened risk.

So in some localities at least the decision to "prioritize" some patients over others has already been made, with non vaccinated Covid patients being the ones given the highest priority.

The result, as has been pointed out, is considerable anger and frustration among those of us who have taken responsibility during this crisis, and are suffering or are seeing loved ones suffer on account of those who don't.

I wonder if you have any thoughts on a solution to all this, and what "positive benefits" you see coming out of "their negative behavioral effects on society?" Because all I've seen is useless death, useless suffering, and rather terrible long term effects on people and society, all of which could have been prevented had some of us not been such flaming asses.

and keeping innocent people from getting any treatment at all.

then neither should people with diabetes, who are also more likely to be hospitalized.

and suggesting that doctors would be justified in refusing to treat them.

It's getting ugly on here.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100215892198

It's what this current thread is in response to, I'm pretty sure.

because those posts were hidden for violating several of the DU rules (bigotry,, insensitivity, right wing smears, etc.). Probably should count it as one of those times that ignorance is bliss so I feel grateful for missing it.

I'll refrain from further comment since I'm a diabetic.

I have not so far seen diabetics compared to anti-vaxxers. How appalling

I know a bit about auto immune diseases. Both of my sons have alopecia areata, an autoimmune disease that causes hair loss. They happen to have the most extreme form, universalis. Think of it as the whole universe of hair being lost. No eyebrows or eyelashes or any sort of body hair at all. Neither one has ever had to shave.

Autoimmune diseases are very random. They just happen. One day everything is fine, the next day you have that disease. With alopecia areata, it's incredibly benign. Hair loss. Big deal. Okay, it's a bigger deal when you're young, and especially if you're female, but even so, there are zero health consequences. Unlike every other autoimmune disease. Type 1 diabetes. Lupus. Multiple sclerosis. Rheumatoid arthritis. Scleroderma -- a classmate of my son's died from that at age 30.

I do feel that anti-vaxxers should absolutely not tie up any kind of medical facilities if they come down with covid. They decided not to vaccinate, they pay the consequences. If they have a heart attack or any other health issue, yes admit them, but immediately vaccinate them.

I don't know in which universe there is a correlation between diabetics and anti-vaxxers.

severe illness and death from covid. I have seen a few posts occasionally that blame diabetics for that vulnerability, claiming (incorretly) that diabetics have brought their condition on themselves through unhealthy living and therefore, like anti vaxxers, do not deserve to be treated for covid.

People can be both ignorant and (stupidly) judgmental at the same time.

areas for both ignorance and judgmentalism. Quite often they are due to misunderstanding evolution and the term, "survival of the fittest." Many inaccurately perceive being the "fittest" as some kind of personally controlled virtue. Actually, all it means is having inherited the right genetic roll of the dice for environmental conditions and changes, or having a coincidental, fortunate mutation.

That is separate from taking good, healthy care of yourself. There have been healthy, physically fit people who have died of covid or other illnesses because their immune system could not successfully fight it. There have been people with careless health habits who have survived it.

There is a genetic study that shows that inheritance in modern people of a few mutations from our Neanderthal ancestors has an effect on covid vulnerability. Depending on which Neanderthal mutation a person inherits, they can be more susceptible to covid, or more protected from it. Some prople lack any of those mutations, which means that others factors are more important for them. A genetic roll of the dice in the modern changed environment of a new virus affecting human beings.

to be hospitalized if they have Covid. So if unvaxxed people should be denied hospitalization for Covid, so should people with diabetes.

I can't follow that logic, but even if I could, I wouldn't.

They never make sense.

but that's a theme lately.

However, I heartily agree with your sentiments, re diabetics and alcoholics. No one chooses those diseases, but an anti-vaxer chooses to put themselves and those closest to them at risk.

If it is available.

But I resent the reference to 'orc'.

As a member of the Orc Tribe, I can categorically say that the average Orc is smarter, better looking and generally in favor of vaccinations when compared to anti-vaxxers.

Anyhow, anti-vaxxers are a group of their own.
Any comparison to any other group is false equivalence.

From what I understand, diabetes has a genetic component. Anti vaxxers are just stubbornly crazy. Alcoholism often has a genetic component, too, which is something I've learned after being in AA for almost 13 years. I supposed diabetics could suffer from alcoholism, too, I can think of a couple that I've met, but not many. There really is no connection. Both diabetes and alcoholism are separate physical illnesses. Those who are anti vax are people who are subscribing to dangerous conspiracy theories. I can't imagine why anyone would come up with that connection, but these really are insane times.

Your post is the very first I have seen discussing any comparison of the two groups. Perhaps there have been, but I have not seen it anywhere.

Yeah, that baffled me, too. I've heard quite a bit surrounding all this, but that was a new one on me, too. I haven't seen this anywhere on the internet until this thread and that one poster.

and throwing out a blanket chastisement because a single person said something stupid in another thread?

That might be even more ridiculous than the stupid post you are angry at.

Or, if their medical condition is plausibly a result of their behavior, should their treatment be a lower priority in a situation where medical care is capacity limited?

If people were all paying for their own health care and capacity were not limited, the answer is clearly yes.

If people are getting health care paid for out of a universal healthcare system, then the answer is not so clear, since they are incurring unnecessary costs born by the entire community.

Not being vaccinated for Covid 19 is just the starkest sort of example, but there are a lot of fuzzier cases. For example, someone with heart disease who gets stents or a bypass, but who does not change their drinking, eating, and exercise habits to minimize relapse.

that is overtaxing the available treatment options also has to be considered.

Generally speaking, ERs and ICUs across counties and, now, across entire states, have not been filled to over capacity and have not threatened mass burn-out by medical professionals on account of seemingly irresponsible heart disease patients, alcoholics, or the like. And thus, we haven't seen multiple instances of others having their care delayed or denied on account of those patients.

We are however beginning to see this on account of non-vaccinated Covid patients, and I think this needs to be taken into account.

I hate to see anyone in need of care being denied for any reason whatsoever. But what we're seeing now is an unprecedented strain on our health care system. The closest analogy might be the post WW1 influenza pandemic, or maybe even the deluge of gunshot wounds and disease following Shiloh and Antietam.

What we need, ASAP, is mandatory vaccinations for everyone who doesn't have a bonafide and documented medical exemption. This is the only way we can work ourselves out of this mess, and even then, if a new vaccine-resistant variant arises, it might be too late.

My great fear is that much worse is to come. My great sadness comes from the fact that all of this was easily avoidable.

It is normally forward looking in medical terms only. It normally would not consider whether the survival of some individuals is of more benefit to society than others. I normally would not consider whether the individual had been negligent in receiving their wound or contracting their disease.

That's probably not really so in practice, and higher ranking officers may get preferential treatment, while wounded cowards and traitors may not.

Deciding that fewer resources should be allocated to unvaccinated is another step away from the usual principle of treating those who will die if left untreated, while not treating those who will die even if treated or who will survive even if untreated.

It's a safe bet that there will be pandemics in the future that are much worse than this one, and which will completely overwhelm the healthcare systems.

is the standard, then many facilities may already be violating or on the verge of violating that principle.

The statistics, last I saw them, seemed to indicate that once someone with Covid and not vaccinated had been on a ventilator for more than a couple of weeks their chance of survival was practically nill.

Yet we're already seeing people suffering with heart attacks and strokes--whose chances for survival are fair to excellent with prompt treatment--having their treatment delayed on account of non-vaccinated Covid patients taking up all available ER slots and ICU beds. I've seen statements from public health officials in states like Arkansas saying that people in car accidents or other medical emergencies requiring intensive care may have to be driven or flown out of state because all the available beds in that state are now filled, with a very significant number of those beds occupied by non-vaccinated Covid patients.

Right now the guiding principle seems to be: first come, first served, regardless of the severity or survivability of those needing care subsequent to whichever Covid patients have arrived minutes or hours or days before. This is in a sense understandable, but if the situation deteriorates (as I'm almost certain it will) the numbers of non-Covid patients forced to delay needed treatment or suffering life altering disability or even death because of the lack of medical resources in certain localities will rise to the point where the anger we're already seeing will also rise.

It's long past time we stopped placating the most ignorant and narcissistic and deluded among us. Right now I think the only way to forestall an even more tragic situation is mandatory vaccination for anyone not medically unable to tolerate the shots. This should have happened as soon as the vaccines became available, but our politics prevented it.

As for future pandemics, hopefully these won't occur in the context of an administration as incompetent, as corrupt, and as immoral as what we saw prior to January 20th. Had the initial response followed the guidelines laid down by the Obama administration and the genuine public health authorities I think the situation today would be vastly different.

I personally know obese alcoholics who've suffered 3 heart attacks that are still alive at 87 years old.

How old was cigar smoking George Burns when he died? 🙄

In general I think passing judgement on people's lifestyle choices is unwise. There's a lot we don't know about genetics and why Covid savages some, kills others, and leaves others relatively unscathed.

So we already pass judgement on people's lifestyle choices. Its just a matter of degree.

Propaganda campaigns to limit consumption of saturated fats, HFCS, etc., when supported by the government are also examples of collectively passing judgement.

I didn't notice that diabetics, or alcoholics, were being smeared like anti-vaxxers. This is not common. I have noticed one or two members here adding "she was obese" comments to death reports as if that makes them more acceptable.

It is certainly reasonable to ask members to oppose the growing depravity on this forum toward the lives of others, not just on the right. The farther this community gets from believing in the rights to life (healthcare!) and pursuit of happiness for all, the less representative it becomes of the Democratic Party and of the many millions of Democrats whose values have not been corrupted by expressions of fear and anger on social media.

Similar arguments have been made (not here on DU, but elsewhere) about the treatment of people with certain disabilities. In such cases the argument is couched in terms of "quality of life" which generally translates into "disabilities frighten me and I can't imagine living like that, so let's just end this poor suckers life."

Combine this with Covid and the resulting shortage in some localities of available treatment options and you have a potentialy lethal combination of circumstances.

Anyway, thanks again for this thoughtful and informative post.

and say that they'll treat those most likely to survive. If they go strictly by that, a vaccinated diabetic with a breakthrough infection might not get treated in favor of an unvaccinated person with a milder case of Covid, but I haven't heard any health group say that out loud. The thought makes me double down harder to avoid the virus, but it makes me mad too, my family (cancer, diabetes) having done all possible to stay healthy--and we might not get treatment.

Ive seen more than one post like the one you're talking about.

I don't like the grave dancing, and I don't like the holier-than-thou speechifying about who gets medical care or not.

Sorry you have to read such crap.