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Mon Aug 30, 2021, 08:46 PM

Charles P. Pierce asks Richard Engel a couple of questions about "western values"

Were we dropping “western values” from the B52?
Did we torture people at sacred Bagram in keeping with “western values”?
Also, it is very much a “Western value” to strike alliances with local people and then abandon them when you’re done pillaging their country or when you’ve achieved a measure of vengeance. Ask the Hmong people about that.0


NBC News chief foreign correspondent Richard Engel called Biden surrender in Afghanistan "the worst capitulation of western values in our lifetimes." https://newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/kyle-drennen/2021/08/30/engel-afghanistan-debacle-worst-capitulation-western-values

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39 replies, 4087 views

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Reply Charles P. Pierce asks Richard Engel a couple of questions about "western values" (Original post)
kpete Aug 30 OP
Solly Mack Aug 30 #1
Hortensis Aug 31 #30
Nevilledog Aug 30 #2
Hugh_Lebowski Aug 30 #3
Grokenstein Aug 30 #16
Moebym Aug 30 #4
godsentme Aug 30 #10
KS Toronado Aug 30 #14
Ferrets are Cool Aug 30 #18
Moebym Aug 31 #21
not fooled Aug 31 #23
Make7 Aug 30 #5
Twoflower Aug 30 #12
soldierant Aug 30 #15
malaise Aug 30 #6
Moebym Aug 30 #13
dalton99a Aug 30 #17
Moebym Aug 31 #22
malaise Aug 31 #26
Deuce Aug 31 #28
malaise Aug 31 #29
Deuce Aug 31 #38
malaise Aug 31 #27
Klaralven Aug 31 #35
Progressive dog Aug 31 #31
druidity33 Aug 31 #39
UTUSN Aug 30 #7
gab13by13 Aug 30 #8
2naSalit Aug 30 #9
NoMoreRepugs Aug 30 #11
Laura PourMeADrink Aug 30 #19
maxsolomon Aug 31 #20
Laura PourMeADrink Aug 31 #32
Moebym Aug 31 #24
Laura PourMeADrink Aug 31 #34
GoodRaisin Aug 31 #25
Paladin Aug 31 #33
Laura PourMeADrink Aug 31 #36
Paladin Aug 31 #37

Response to kpete (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 08:48 PM

1. K&R

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Response to Solly Mack (Reply #1)

Tue Aug 31, 2021, 08:38 AM

30. Really? I think it's extremely dishonest to equate our nation's

failures to always live up to the ideals of its liberal majority with our ideals themselves. And to smear Engel's values as somehow hypocritical, nonexistent, and endorsements of betrayals and atrocities all at the same time.

If that was true for him, it'd be true for all the rest of us also. There are drags on humanity who accept and claim that as our common reality, but that's only for them -- if it is more than just noise.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 08:50 PM

2. Charles is not amused.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 08:51 PM

3. Oh, so now the withdrawal deal Trump Admin signed with the Taliban, that Biden followed thru with

is to be known as the 'Biden Surrender'?

Cute.

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Response to Hugh_Lebowski (Reply #3)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 10:44 PM

16. Is that not GOP SOP?

Is that not the name of the game?
Played by the party that knows no shame?
Steal the credit, pass the blame!
Then accuse the Dems of doing the same!

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 08:53 PM

4. Thank you, Charles Pierce.

I will not assail Richard Engel's character as I feel his emotion and concern is mostly genuine and heartfelt (some may disagree, and that's fine), but he is not serving the interests of the people of Afghanistan when he lets his emotions override his objectivity.

As I've said several times before, it's simply impossible for us to bring Western-style democracy to every one of the oppressed peoples in the world, and accepting that fact is not the same as capitulating to the enemy. The belief that we have a moral obligation to spread our values across the world is a particularly insidious form of imperialism, and imperialism hasn't exactly had a great human rights track record in the history of mankind.

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Response to Moebym (Reply #4)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 09:45 PM

10. I agree with you

Your comment, very simply put reflects my thoughts exactly. I am sad for Richard though and hope he recovers.
There's so much more, but will leave it at that.
We're #1! 🤬

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Response to godsentme (Reply #10)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 10:26 PM

14. Welcome to DU!

I'm on a mission from God, elect more Democrats.

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Response to Moebym (Reply #4)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 11:01 PM

18. "it's simply impossible for us to bring Western-style democracy to every one of the oppressed people

" Hell, we can hardly keep it for ourselves.

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Response to Ferrets are Cool (Reply #18)

Tue Aug 31, 2021, 12:26 AM

21. Isn't that the truth...

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Response to Ferrets are Cool (Reply #18)

Tue Aug 31, 2021, 12:29 AM

23. The GQPee is busy

getting rid of Western-style democracy here.


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Response to kpete (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 08:54 PM

5. "What do you think of Western civilization?"

"I think it would be a good idea."

- credited to Ghandi

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Response to Make7 (Reply #5)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 09:54 PM

12. That is an awesome answer.

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Response to Make7 (Reply #5)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 10:30 PM

15. Ummmm.....

Gandhi

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 09:11 PM

6. You know the Brits were no different - they spread their great values while

cutting off the hands of weavers in India.
Slavery, racism, colonialism and imperialism made them GREAT Britain and they actually believe that.

It's all fucking BS - people will do anything to enrich themselves and claim superiority.
And they use weapons, religion, superstition and propaganda to further their agenda.

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Response to malaise (Reply #6)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 10:03 PM

13. +1

They believed their cause to be righteous just as the critics of our withdrawal claimed their justification for remaining in Afghanistan was righteous or the defenders of "Manifest Destiny" claimed they had a God-given right to rule the continent.

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Response to malaise (Reply #6)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 10:45 PM

17. +1. King Leopold II and his civilization:

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Response to dalton99a (Reply #17)

Tue Aug 31, 2021, 12:27 AM

22. Holy shit.

Who are the barbaric ones, here?

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Response to dalton99a (Reply #17)

Tue Aug 31, 2021, 07:59 AM

26. Too many people do not know the truth

or do not want to know the truth.

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Response to malaise (Reply #26)

Tue Aug 31, 2021, 08:16 AM

28. That about sums it up...and there are those who are actively trying to keep the truth hidden.

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Response to Deuce (Reply #28)

Tue Aug 31, 2021, 08:24 AM

29. Hence they come up with asinine phrases like cancel culture

which simply means destroying their lies

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Response to malaise (Reply #29)

Tue Aug 31, 2021, 11:46 AM

38. Yes...

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Response to dalton99a (Reply #17)


Response to dalton99a (Reply #17)

Tue Aug 31, 2021, 09:16 AM

35. US drone strike wiped out Kabul family, brother says

When Ezmarai Ahmadi returned home from work on Sunday evening in Kabul, the usual gaggle of squealing children were waiting to greet him -- his sons and daughters, and a slew of nieces and nephews.

He pulled his white sedan into the driveway of a modest house in Kwaja Burga, a densely populated neighbourhood in the northwest of the Afghan capital, and handed the keys to his eldest son to park.

Youngsters piled into the vehicle -- pretending the parking routine was an adventure -- while Ezmarai watched from the side.

Then out of the blue Afghan sky, a missile came screeching down -- striking the car with a terrible force and obliterating the lives of 10 people in an instant.

The United States said Sunday it had destroyed an explosive-laden vehicle in an air strike, thwarting a bid by the Islamic State to detonate a car bomb at Kabul airport.

On Monday, it looked as if they could have made a terrible mistake.


https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20210831-us-drone-strike-wiped-out-kabul-family-brother-says

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Response to malaise (Reply #6)

Tue Aug 31, 2021, 08:54 AM

31. The "cutting off of the hands of weavers" appears

to not be true.
https://www.sabhlokcity.com/2018/08/conclusive-evidence-that-the-british-did-not-cut-off-any-indian-weavers-thumbs-myth-busted/
The Bolts 1772 text shows clearly that the British were not trying to end weaving. They were trying to mopolise it and force the weavers to work for them. In doing this they did oppress weavers. BUT THEY DID NOT CUT OFF THEIR THUMBS.

I also note that Dadabhai Naoroji’s 617 page book, Poverty and Unbritish Rule in India does NOT ever mention ANY weaver cutting off their hand. How is it possible that the ultra-diligent Naoroji would have missed this if it was anywhere documented?

NO INDIAN SCHOLAR TILL 1900 HAD EVER IDENTIFIED THIS ISSUE. IT WAS INVENTED AFTER 1900.

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Response to Progressive dog (Reply #31)

Tue Aug 31, 2021, 12:43 PM

39. rubber plantation...

is not a weaver. And that photo looks authentic...



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Response to kpete (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 09:13 PM

7. K&R

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 09:19 PM

8. Actually it was MF45 who surrendered,

MF45 even used the word surrender when he met with the Taliban to set the terms of the surrender, minus any representative of the Afghan government.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 09:35 PM

9. I submitted a complaint to MSNBC about it. ...nt

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 09:49 PM

11. Shame on you Richard Engel, shame.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 11:19 PM

19. Wow that's an amazing statement from a person who has been there for many years, sees it all,

has felt it all, and has experienced it all. Unlike 99.99% of all US

To discount his opinion is actually definitely mind-blowing.

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Response to Laura PourMeADrink (Reply #19)

Tue Aug 31, 2021, 12:19 AM

20. We could not persuade or coerce the Taliban's sponsors to stop.

We were not willing to commit the troops, or commit the war crimes it would have taken to pacify the nation. All in or all out.

I hope Engle saves some of his ire for Donald Fucking Trump.

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Response to maxsolomon (Reply #20)


Response to Laura PourMeADrink (Reply #19)

Tue Aug 31, 2021, 12:50 AM

24. And? That should make him completely immune from criticism?

What do you have to say, then, about the people who have done tours in Afghanistan and still supported our withdrawal? Are they mistaken because they disagreed with Engel?

And lastly, what would you have had us do if you strongly disagreed with Biden's strategy...keep thousands of troops there indefinitely at great risk to their safety and cost to the taxpayers? 20 years (and $2T+) was apparently too quick for you, so how long did you think was appropriate?

I don't expect you to answer because I know you are secure in your own self-righteousness, but I hope you will at least give some thought to these questions.

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Response to Moebym (Reply #24)

Tue Aug 31, 2021, 09:08 AM

34. The epitome of cancel culture

6 months ago everyone would have loved the man. And then one day says something from his heart which one might think he deserves to do because he was there while we were laying on the couch watching him, he's the devil incarnate?

What in the world happened to wow we should AT LEAST listen to this person because he is always been a well respected person all his career.? Doesn't he at least deserve that? Perhaps we can still learn something from him or hear positive ideas from him even though we pulled out.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Tue Aug 31, 2021, 01:51 AM

25. Frankly, the statement by Engel doesn't make any sense.

First, Biden didn’t “surrender”. He left a place we had no business being in. There were no white flags. Biden did what Trump had “promised” to do. The withdrawal agreement was “negotiated” by Pompeo. (Unfortunately)

Trump could have withdrawn but he was too chickenshit. He’d rather have someone else do the heavy lifting.

Second, what does “capitulating western values” even mean? This is the Taliban. I mean, seriously, what would Engel have Biden do?

I respect Engel’s body of work and his experience. But I think this comment was an emotional one. I can’t make sense out of it. “Western values” may be leaving Afghanistan, but putting that on Biden is just way over the top. We didn’t go there to deliver western values. Or, at least as we were told.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Tue Aug 31, 2021, 09:06 AM

33. God bless Charlie Pierce.

And fuck Ricard Engel, a guy I used to respect.

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Response to Paladin (Reply #33)

Tue Aug 31, 2021, 09:26 AM

36. Operative words? Used to respect?

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Response to Laura PourMeADrink (Reply #36)

Tue Aug 31, 2021, 09:32 AM

37. Yeah, used to respect.

Engel, having a major-league, Biden-trashing, wrong-headed hissyfit yesterday. Acting as if he'll have trouble finding another war to keep his bank account and ego overflowing.

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