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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsCharles P. Pierce asks Richard Engel a couple of questions about "western values"
Were we dropping western values from the B52?Did we torture people at sacred Bagram in keeping with western values?
Also, it is very much a Western value to strike alliances with local people and then abandon them when youre done pillaging their country or when youve achieved a measure of vengeance. Ask the Hmong people about that.0
NBC News chief foreign correspondent Richard Engel called Biden surrender in Afghanistan "the worst capitulation of western values in our lifetimes." https://newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/kyle-drennen/2021/08/30/engel-afghanistan-debacle-worst-capitulation-western-values
Link to tweet
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Link to tweet
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Hortensis
(58,785 posts)failures to always live up to the ideals of its liberal majority with our ideals themselves. And to smear Engel's values as somehow hypocritical, nonexistent, and endorsements of betrayals and atrocities all at the same time.
If that was true for him, it'd be true for all the rest of us also. There are drags on humanity who accept and claim that as our common reality, but that's only for them -- if it is more than just noise.
Nevilledog
(51,005 posts)Hugh_Lebowski
(33,643 posts)is to be known as the 'Biden Surrender'?
Cute.
Grokenstein
(5,721 posts)Is that not the name of the game?
Played by the party that knows no shame?
Steal the credit, pass the blame!
Then accuse the Dems of doing the same!
Moebym
(989 posts)I will not assail Richard Engel's character as I feel his emotion and concern is mostly genuine and heartfelt (some may disagree, and that's fine), but he is not serving the interests of the people of Afghanistan when he lets his emotions override his objectivity.
As I've said several times before, it's simply impossible for us to bring Western-style democracy to every one of the oppressed peoples in the world, and accepting that fact is not the same as capitulating to the enemy. The belief that we have a moral obligation to spread our values across the world is a particularly insidious form of imperialism, and imperialism hasn't exactly had a great human rights track record in the history of mankind.
godsentme
(69 posts)Your comment, very simply put reflects my thoughts exactly. I am sad for Richard though and hope he recovers.
There's so much more, but will leave it at that.
We're #1! 🤬
KS Toronado
(17,147 posts)I'm on a mission from God, elect more Democrats.
Ferrets are Cool
(21,102 posts)" Hell, we can hardly keep it for ourselves.
Moebym
(989 posts)not fooled
(5,801 posts)getting rid of Western-style democracy here.
Make7
(8,543 posts)"I think it would be a good idea."
- credited to Ghandi
Twoflower
(1,019 posts)soldierant
(6,791 posts)Gandhi
malaise
(268,693 posts)cutting off the hands of weavers in India.
Slavery, racism, colonialism and imperialism made them GREAT Britain and they actually believe that.
It's all fucking BS - people will do anything to enrich themselves and claim superiority.
And they use weapons, religion, superstition and propaganda to further their agenda.
They believed their cause to be righteous just as the critics of our withdrawal claimed their justification for remaining in Afghanistan was righteous or the defenders of "Manifest Destiny" claimed they had a God-given right to rule the continent.
dalton99a
(81,392 posts)Moebym
(989 posts)Who are the barbaric ones, here?
malaise
(268,693 posts)or do not want to know the truth.
Deuce
(959 posts)malaise
(268,693 posts)which simply means destroying their lies
Response to dalton99a (Reply #17)
malaise This message was self-deleted by its author.
Klaralven
(7,510 posts)He pulled his white sedan into the driveway of a modest house in Kwaja Burga, a densely populated neighbourhood in the northwest of the Afghan capital, and handed the keys to his eldest son to park.
Youngsters piled into the vehicle -- pretending the parking routine was an adventure -- while Ezmarai watched from the side.
Then out of the blue Afghan sky, a missile came screeching down -- striking the car with a terrible force and obliterating the lives of 10 people in an instant.
The United States said Sunday it had destroyed an explosive-laden vehicle in an air strike, thwarting a bid by the Islamic State to detonate a car bomb at Kabul airport.
On Monday, it looked as if they could have made a terrible mistake.
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20210831-us-drone-strike-wiped-out-kabul-family-brother-says
Progressive dog
(6,899 posts)to not be true.
https://www.sabhlokcity.com/2018/08/conclusive-evidence-that-the-british-did-not-cut-off-any-indian-weavers-thumbs-myth-busted/
I also note that Dadabhai Naorojis 617 page book, Poverty and Unbritish Rule in India does NOT ever mention ANY weaver cutting off their hand. How is it possible that the ultra-diligent Naoroji would have missed this if it was anywhere documented?
NO INDIAN SCHOLAR TILL 1900 HAD EVER IDENTIFIED THIS ISSUE. IT WAS INVENTED AFTER 1900.
druidity33
(6,444 posts)is not a weaver. And that photo looks authentic...
gab13by13
(21,256 posts)MF45 even used the word surrender when he met with the Taliban to set the terms of the surrender, minus any representative of the Afghan government.
2naSalit
(86,323 posts)NoMoreRepugs
(9,371 posts)Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)has felt it all, and has experienced it all. Unlike 99.99% of all US
To discount his opinion is actually definitely mind-blowing.
maxsolomon
(33,244 posts)We were not willing to commit the troops, or commit the war crimes it would have taken to pacify the nation. All in or all out.
I hope Engle saves some of his ire for Donald Fucking Trump.
Response to maxsolomon (Reply #20)
Laura PourMeADrink This message was self-deleted by its author.
Moebym
(989 posts)What do you have to say, then, about the people who have done tours in Afghanistan and still supported our withdrawal? Are they mistaken because they disagreed with Engel?
And lastly, what would you have had us do if you strongly disagreed with Biden's strategy...keep thousands of troops there indefinitely at great risk to their safety and cost to the taxpayers? 20 years (and $2T+) was apparently too quick for you, so how long did you think was appropriate?
I don't expect you to answer because I know you are secure in your own self-righteousness, but I hope you will at least give some thought to these questions.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)6 months ago everyone would have loved the man. And then one day says something from his heart which one might think he deserves to do because he was there while we were laying on the couch watching him, he's the devil incarnate?
What in the world happened to wow we should AT LEAST listen to this person because he is always been a well respected person all his career.? Doesn't he at least deserve that? Perhaps we can still learn something from him or hear positive ideas from him even though we pulled out.
GoodRaisin
(8,906 posts)First, Biden didnt surrender. He left a place we had no business being in. There were no white flags. Biden did what Trump had promised to do. The withdrawal agreement was negotiated by Pompeo. (Unfortunately)
Trump could have withdrawn but he was too chickenshit. Hed rather have someone else do the heavy lifting.
Second, what does capitulating western values even mean? This is the Taliban. I mean, seriously, what would Engel have Biden do?
I respect Engels body of work and his experience. But I think this comment was an emotional one. I cant make sense out of it. Western values may be leaving Afghanistan, but putting that on Biden is just way over the top. We didnt go there to deliver western values. Or, at least as we were told.
Paladin
(28,243 posts)And fuck Ricard Engel, a guy I used to respect.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Paladin
(28,243 posts)Engel, having a major-league, Biden-trashing, wrong-headed hissyfit yesterday. Acting as if he'll have trouble finding another war to keep his bank account and ego overflowing.