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Sun Aug 8, 2021, 09:45 PM

Am I The Only One The Wants To Make Sure The Taliban Does Not Take Over Afghanistan Again?

I think the entire civilized world needs to take action. Not just our troops.

78 replies, 2661 views

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Reply Am I The Only One The Wants To Make Sure The Taliban Does Not Take Over Afghanistan Again? (Original post)
DanieRains Aug 2021 OP
ret5hd Aug 2021 #1
elleng Aug 2021 #8
Hoyt Aug 2021 #2
SledDriver Aug 2021 #20
lpbk2713 Aug 2021 #27
Moostache Aug 2021 #3
former9thward Aug 2021 #4
Rustyeye77 Aug 2021 #43
Scrivener7 Aug 2021 #5
The Magistrate Aug 2021 #14
krispos42 Aug 2021 #24
rampartc Aug 2021 #32
krispos42 Aug 2021 #34
Scrivener7 Aug 2021 #44
maxsolomon Aug 2021 #55
rampartc Aug 2021 #71
maxsolomon Aug 2021 #73
elleng Aug 2021 #6
brush Aug 2021 #7
SoonerPride Aug 2021 #9
Haggard Celine Aug 2021 #10
cate94 Aug 2021 #11
Effete Snob Aug 2021 #21
H2O Man Aug 2021 #12
BlueMTexpat Aug 2021 #19
Hekate Aug 2021 #31
Cosmocat Aug 2021 #36
Brother Mythos Aug 2021 #13
Wounded Bear Aug 2021 #15
Cosmocat Aug 2021 #37
JI7 Aug 2021 #16
walkingman Aug 2021 #17
NewHendoLib Aug 2021 #18
Effete Snob Aug 2021 #22
lindysalsagal Aug 2021 #23
BannonsLiver Aug 2021 #60
Lancero Aug 2021 #25
jmbar2 Aug 2021 #26
smirkymonkey Aug 2021 #33
UTUSN Aug 2021 #28
Laffy Kat Aug 2021 #29
Hekate Aug 2021 #30
Rustyeye77 Aug 2021 #35
Elessar Zappa Aug 2021 #40
Rustyeye77 Aug 2021 #42
Hortensis Aug 2021 #38
alphafemale Aug 2021 #39
brooklynite Aug 2021 #51
Rustyeye77 Aug 2021 #58
Devil Child Aug 2021 #65
Deminpenn Aug 2021 #41
MineralMan Aug 2021 #45
Rustyeye77 Aug 2021 #48
MineralMan Aug 2021 #54
Rustyeye77 Aug 2021 #57
kpete Aug 2021 #46
Demsrule86 Aug 2021 #47
Rustyeye77 Aug 2021 #49
Demsrule86 Aug 2021 #78
Devil Child Aug 2021 #50
Rustyeye77 Aug 2021 #61
malaise Aug 2021 #52
malaise Aug 2021 #53
maxsolomon Aug 2021 #56
Devil Child Aug 2021 #64
maxsolomon Aug 2021 #66
Devil Child Aug 2021 #68
maxsolomon Aug 2021 #69
Devil Child Aug 2021 #72
BannonsLiver Aug 2021 #59
ibegurpard Aug 2021 #62
bermudat Aug 2021 #63
Bettie Aug 2021 #67
flotsam2 Aug 2021 #70
Volaris Aug 2021 #74
DashOneBravo Aug 2021 #75
Rustyeye77 Aug 2021 #76
Captain Stern Aug 2021 #77

Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Sun Aug 8, 2021, 09:48 PM

1. The Graveyard of Empires

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Response to ret5hd (Reply #1)

Sun Aug 8, 2021, 09:57 PM

8. Right, seriously discouraging history.

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Sun Aug 8, 2021, 09:49 PM

2. While I agree, we haven't made a dent in almost 20 years.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #2)

Sun Aug 8, 2021, 10:49 PM

20. 20 years, thousands of lives, trillions of dollars

and the Taliban were able to retake the whole country in 20 days

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Response to SledDriver (Reply #20)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 12:19 AM

27. That gives them bragging rights.



Sadly to say.

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Sun Aug 8, 2021, 09:50 PM

3. Trying to hold and squeeze water

20 years of war and occupation.

Prior to that, the history of Afghanistan does not have a great history of democracy to begin with. It's time to start making Afghans run their own affairs and make clear that they are responsible for anything that happens from their people.

We cannot save them from themselves...we are barely holding onto our own democracy...we have bigger fish to fry right now.

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Sun Aug 8, 2021, 09:50 PM

4. You may not be the only one but you are a very small minority in this country.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #4)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 07:23 AM

43. I'm in the minority.

 

I'm used to it.

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Sun Aug 8, 2021, 09:53 PM

5. No one wants it to happen. But it will happen.

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Response to Scrivener7 (Reply #5)

Sun Aug 8, 2021, 10:08 PM

14. Exactly, Ma'am

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Response to Scrivener7 (Reply #5)

Sun Aug 8, 2021, 11:27 PM

24. The Taliban wants it to happen

And not enough people in Afghanistan are against it, or at matching levels of enthusiasm.

I would guess the best way to topple the Taliban would be to legalize opiates (opioids?) and grow the poppies locally.

That would wipe out the Afghan opiate industry and the Taliban would probably dissolve into factional war over whatever's left.

But we're not that intelligent.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #24)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 02:43 AM

32. check the stats

the taliban had virtually eradicated poppy by 2001, then the american invasion restored the industry.

The Taliban opium ban in 2000/2001 had, there is no doubt, the most profound impact on opium/heroin supply in modern history, as the authors argue. Exogenous global causes can indeed be eliminated as explanations. It was a rare historical moment that allowed almost absolute compliance in the south of the country, with hardly any direct enforcement or punishment required. From the eastern regions, where Taliban control was far from absolute, several cases of disobedience were reported, largely resolved by means of negotiations and pay-offs to local war lords. By harvest time in spring 2001, the effectiveness of the ban was already confirmed beyond any doubt,



https://www.tni.org/en/article/learning-lessons-from-the-taliban-opium-ban

is it conspiracy theory to think that maybe restoration of the opium trade was a motivation for invasion?

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Response to rampartc (Reply #32)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 05:08 AM

34. Hmph, I hadn't realized that

I though that was how they financed themselves.

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Response to rampartc (Reply #32)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 08:35 AM

44. Wow. I did not know that. And no, not conspiracy theory but rather

logical possibility. As with everything "follow the money" always makes sense.

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Response to rampartc (Reply #32)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 10:06 AM

55. yes, it is a CT

GWB was not a strategic thinker, let alone pro-opiates.

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Response to maxsolomon (Reply #55)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 01:19 PM

71. it would not be the first time the cia was involved in drug trafficking

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Response to rampartc (Reply #71)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 01:27 PM

73. Yeah, yeah. Another time, another place.

Lay out the goals of a theoretical CIA policy to re-build the Afghan opiate trade for me.

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Sun Aug 8, 2021, 09:56 PM

6. No, but the history suggests 'failure.'

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Sun Aug 8, 2021, 09:56 PM

7. That country is geographically situated that it's where invaders go to flounder for years then die.

It's landlocked and hard to get to...supply lines much too long to sustain forever. 20 years of investing in that shadow government and army has gotten us nowhere. The Soviet Union found out before us, and others have before that.

Unfortunately it might be time to cut our losses. But of course get all the people out who helped us over the years.

Let the Afghans decide their own future. The Taliban will fall themselves if they oppress their own people.

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Sun Aug 8, 2021, 09:57 PM

9. Why? After 20 years it's a dead end.

You can’t defeat an ideology.

We would have to stay until the end of time.

No sale.

Is it a tragedy for the women and girls of the country? Yes.

But the US cannot stay until the end of time.

Enough.

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Sun Aug 8, 2021, 10:00 PM

10. I don't want the Taliban to take control either, but

there's only so much that could be done to make over Afghanistan. What can an international force do that the American military couldn't? Most people there are very traditional and don't seem to want change. They don't seem to care if some groups are persecuted. It would take a tremendous amount of work to change Afghanistan into a westernized democracy. And if the people don't want that, should we force it on them?

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Sun Aug 8, 2021, 10:02 PM

11. We didn't go to

Afghanistan to take out the Taliban. We went there to take out Al Queida and Bin Laden. Destroying the Taliban would have been gravy.

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Response to cate94 (Reply #11)

Sun Aug 8, 2021, 10:53 PM

21. Seems few remember that


The US did not have a beef with the Taliban. They were given an ultimatum to cough up Bin Laden and no room to negotiate the terms under which that might happen.

Then, we invaded and forgot about Bin Laden, who eventually was living the high life in Abbotabad.

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Sun Aug 8, 2021, 10:04 PM

12. I'm more concerned

with the mutant republican party taking over the United States.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #12)

Sun Aug 8, 2021, 10:37 PM

19. This!

Absolutely this!

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #12)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 01:39 AM

31. Damn straight

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #12)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 06:20 AM

36. T H I S

American democracy is on life support.

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Sun Aug 8, 2021, 10:07 PM

13. Sorry, but I'm underwhelmed by the Afghan people's will to not be ruled by the Taliban.

I think twenty years is more than long enough for the majority of the Afghan people to make up their minds about what kind of future they want for themselves and their children.

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Sun Aug 8, 2021, 10:08 PM

15. This outcome was foreordained when Bush turned the mission into nation building...

after expressly promising, BTW, NOT to engage in nation building in his campaign.

We could spend another 20 years, 10,000 lives, and 3 trillion dollars and Afghanistan would still not have a stable democracy.

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Response to Wounded Bear (Reply #15)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 06:21 AM

37. Correct on all accounts

nm

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Sun Aug 8, 2021, 10:09 PM

16. That would involve getting into something with Pakistan

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Sun Aug 8, 2021, 10:10 PM

17. I am far more concerned about the Christian Nationalist controlling this country.

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Sun Aug 8, 2021, 10:16 PM

18. that is so yesterday's news - if social media influencers aren't concerned, why should we be?

of course

I am actually saddened, not shocked. We, as a species, are an utter embarrassment. No ability to solve big complex things, tiny attention span apathetic, Narcissistic.

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Response to NewHendoLib (Reply #18)

Sun Aug 8, 2021, 10:54 PM

22. Tiny attention span


The Taliban were running Afghanistan long before we showed up. We did not go there because of them. Some with short attention spans seem to have forgotten what the point to being there was in the first place.

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Sun Aug 8, 2021, 11:14 PM

23. Re-arranging the rocks in afghanistan

We don't understand those people at all if we think we can do anything about it.

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Response to lindysalsagal (Reply #23)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 10:54 AM

60. +1 Afghanistan is the place it wants to be.

Very little has changed their over several millennia.

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Sun Aug 8, 2021, 11:36 PM

25. It's a war of ideology, not something you can solve with guns, tanks, and bombs.

Well, you can, but at that point you've pretty much jumped the line to religiously driven genocide.

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 12:12 AM

26. We should offer asylum to Afghan women and help them escape

Not realistic, but I feel terrible for them.

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Response to jmbar2 (Reply #26)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 02:47 AM

33. That is what I wish we could do.

Evacuate their young girls and women and any women or men who want nothing to do with what is currently going on (because I think that if most men did, who weren't Taliban, they already would have done something about it or at least fought back harder in the beginning when it was more manageable).

Then they won't be able to reproduce, or at least not as much and will eventually die out sooner or later.

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 12:20 AM

28. It's been said since Alexander of Macedonia

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 01:15 AM

29. Arm the Afghan women and let them take out the Taliban.

Of course, they are so oppressed now I can't see it ever happening.

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 01:35 AM

30. Here's a 2017 article in The Diplomat about how many empires were broken in the Hindu Kush....

https://thediplomat.com/2017/06/why-is-afghanistan-the-graveyard-of-empires/

Snip
Despite spending more on Afghanistan than on rebuilding Europe after World War II, little progress has been made.

Snip
Afghanistan is particularly hard to conquer primarily due to the intersection of three factors. First, because Afghanistan is located on the main land route between Iran, Central Asia, and India, it has been invaded many times and settled by a plethora of tribes, many mutually hostile to each other and outsiders. Second, because of the frequency of invasion and the prevalence of tribalism in the area, its lawlessness lead to a situation where almost every village or house was built like a fortress, or qalat. Third, the physical terrain of Afghanistan makes conquest and rule extremely difficult, exacerbating its tribal tendencies. Afghanistan is dominated by some of the highest and more jagged mountains in the world. These include the Hindu Kush, which dominates the country and run through the center and south of the country, as well as the Pamir mountains in the east. The Pamir Knot — where the Hindu Kush, Pamir, Tian Shan, Kunlun, and Himalayas all meet is situated in Badakhshan in northeast Afghanistan.
Snip
A survey of Afghanistan’s history demonstrates how difficult it is to occupy and govern the country. We first get a clear glimpse into Afghanistan’s history around 500 BCE,……
Snip




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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 06:15 AM

35. Oh yes... The UN and Europe are jumping all over it...right now.

 

The UN and Europe pay lip service and now they see and say nothing.

We did our part.

Ohhh. they talk a good game but but now hide.

I dont want to ever hear how great the UN and Europe are. Fuck em.



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Response to Rustyeye77 (Reply #35)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 06:32 AM

40. Why should the UN and Europe

get involved in an unwinnable scenario? It’s time for the citizens of Afghanistan stand up and take responsibility for their nation. We trained them for twenty years.

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Response to Elessar Zappa (Reply #40)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 06:39 AM

42. I didnt say the US

 

The US did our part.

" It’s time for the citizens of Afghanistan stand up and take responsibility for their nation"

I'm sure the young girls will be happy to hear that.

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 06:27 AM

38. Unfortunately I guess, or inevitably?, a lot of Afghanis

prefer the Afghani Taliban to "the entire civilized world" coming in and imposing western culture on them and quashing their own, including their religion.

You know, a lot of what's going on on our own right includes beliefs that they have a right and duty to impose what they believe on the entire nation. And to do what is required to force it on those who resist. They're not all just driven by partisan malice, many really do care about right and wrong and want to fix what's wrong.

Your post reminds me of the righteous right, of the righteous Taliban, and of my own righteous beliefs in equality and individual freedom. My conviction is unshaken and this development in Afghanistan to my mind an ongoing tragedy, but we need to look at that "make sure" thing and be far more respectful of what others believe and want and far more humble in our assumptions about what we should force on others.

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 06:29 AM

39. The Afghan people need to want it.

Maybe when they do it will change.

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Response to alphafemale (Reply #39)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 09:52 AM

51. Just like the Palestinians need to "want" to get rid of Hamas?

Or the Lebanese need to want to get rid of Hezbollah?

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #51)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 10:37 AM

58. Great post.

 

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #51)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 11:43 AM

65. Yes n/t

 

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 06:33 AM

41. Right now the Taliban aren't in charge, but

eventually they will be.

When that happens, they can be more easily held accountable by other world governments. They will be the face of Afghanistan. They will have to establish a working government. They will be suspectible to economic and political pressure. They will be susceptible to sanctions other countries put on their allies to stop enabling their behavior. At least that's my hope.

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 08:39 AM

45. Impossible. We can't do it. Nobody can do it.

If any lesson is to be learned, it is to stay out of Middle Eastern squabbles. We have no method to prevent the Taliban from regaining control of Afghanistan. Many have tried to stabilize that region. All have failed.

They will have to work it out for themselves.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #45)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 09:03 AM

48. What about the young girls ?

 

The young girls who will become forced baby factories and treated like 5th class citizens

Girls who are trying to learn something in schools they never had with the taliban.

I know the US did its job the best we could.

Notice the UN and Europe are silent.

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Response to Rustyeye77 (Reply #48)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 10:05 AM

54. Here's the thing: We did not protect them before.

That was not why we went there in the first place. Before us, the Russians were there. Before the Russians, it was someone else. After us, who can say who will go there? Whoever does will not succeed. The problem is societal, tribal, and religious in nature.

Societies must correct themselves internally. Trying to force them to change rarely works, and especially in that region. We waste our time, money, and lives attempting to do that. Underlying all of it is religion. There, the religion is Islam, which has reactionary cults that keep women under male thumbs. Religion may have some good effects on civilization, but those are often overridden by the harmful effects religion has.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #54)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 10:35 AM

57. You may be right.

 

The one thing that could have helped that country was educated women and men.

It won’t happen but I hope those girls and boys get out somehow.

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 08:40 AM

46. Too late

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 08:41 AM

47. It won't happen. It is heartbreaking much like Vietnam.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #47)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 09:38 AM

49. It is heartbreaking.

 

Those poor young girls ..and boys.... are doomed.

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Response to Rustyeye77 (Reply #49)

Tue Aug 10, 2021, 12:37 PM

78. I know. It makes me sick.

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 09:50 AM

50. OK, you got the "entire civilized world" ready for action. What's next in your plan?

 

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Response to Devil Child (Reply #50)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 10:59 AM

61. If it was easy it would have been done by now

 

Stabilize the situation.

Offer to remove the young girls and boys to a better life to their countries.

Then leave and the civilized world would have done what it could.

Is it perfect ? No. But at least the civilized world did what it could.

You could find fault , I understand. There is no perfect solution.

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 09:56 AM

52. I am way more worried about the Slobfather and ReTHUG terrorists

in the United States

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 09:56 AM

53. I am way more worried about the Slobfather and ReTHUG terrorists

in the United States

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 10:15 AM

56. Pakistan wants it. Pakistan has always supported it.

Not quite sure what they get out of it, except their own Pashtun tribal NW Territories are placated.

Because of Pakistani support and Bush's idiotic decision to invade Iraq, there was never a real effort to pacify the nation. Would America have had the will to do what was needed to crush the Taliban? Probably not. There's no oil there.

Now comes the massive refugee crisis, if not a humanitarian crisis like a famine. Winter is coming.



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Response to maxsolomon (Reply #56)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 11:43 AM

64. Afghanistan is a cornerstone of Pakistan's "Strategic Depth" defense mindset for war with India

 

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Response to Devil Child (Reply #64)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 11:46 AM

66. I'm sure it will be very useful to them.

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Response to maxsolomon (Reply #66)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 12:10 PM

68. Pakistan seems to think so considering their actions in Afghanistan

 

I'm no fan of the Pakistani Government so roll them eyes freely.

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Response to Devil Child (Reply #68)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 01:09 PM

69. I read up on "Strategic Depth" and it doesn't sound like they still pursue it.

If they ever did. It sounds pretty far-fetched; retreating and regrouping on the other side of the Khyber Pass when both sides have Nukes?

I'm more of a mind that they permit the Taliban free reign so they don't have to deal with an insurgency in their own Pashtun tribal areas.

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Response to maxsolomon (Reply #69)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 01:23 PM

72. Total agreement with your last sentence.

 

Regardless of their primary drive, I think we can both agree Pakistan is part of the problem and Pakistan views Afghanistan as "theirs."

Would be nice to see Afghanistan drive their own destiny.

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 10:53 AM

59. Yes.

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 11:33 AM

62. Personally I'm more worried about them taking over here ATM

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 11:37 AM

63. At what price?

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 11:53 AM

67. I don't think anyone wants that

but honestly, what do we do? Keep troops there forever? For another fifty or a hundred years?

Whenever we leave, they take over. Look at the history of the region.

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 01:11 PM

70. I am sorry Danie

usually I agree with your posts. But I want universal healthcare, guaranteed basic income and safe housing for all Americans more and I believe those are achievable. I'd like free beer and nachos as a right but there are distinct lines between what I want and what can be achieved...
What is going to happen to the Afghans, and especially the women are a horror show but we must end our horror shows first.

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 02:35 PM

74. I agree on the 'not just ours' part. To do it right, would take another 20 years

Of infrastructure building and the like, and just the payroll budget for a project that large would run you an easy trillion dollars.

You cannot turn the Graveyard of Empires into a first world democracy on the cheap. The problem has been, that people keep trying.

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Mon Aug 9, 2021, 09:20 PM

75. Can the UN be reponsible?

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Response to DashOneBravo (Reply #75)

Tue Aug 10, 2021, 01:05 AM

76. Don't be ridiculous .

 

They don’t give a damn about Afghanistan.

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Tue Aug 10, 2021, 07:12 AM

77. You're not. I don't want the Taliban to take over Afghanistan again either.

I'd also like the rest of the civilized world to take action (that includes Afghanis). Not just our troops.

But, if the rest of the world isn't willing, or able, to step up and take action...then I don't don't think our troops should be there either.

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