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MoonRiver

(36,926 posts)
Wed Oct 17, 2012, 11:19 AM Oct 2012

I don't understand why it couldn't have been both an act of terror AND a reaction to the movie.

Al Qaeda took advantage of the mobs during the Arab Spring to promote itself. I think that was part of what went on in Benghazi. So, in effect President Obama and Susan Rice were each correct.

53 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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I don't understand why it couldn't have been both an act of terror AND a reaction to the movie. (Original Post) MoonRiver Oct 2012 OP
What is these shades of gray you speak off? nadinbrzezinski Oct 2012 #1
+1 justabob Oct 2012 #2
Yes because otherwise Rethugs have no argument. MoonRiver Oct 2012 #3
LOL! Indeed. tosh Oct 2012 #4
Very simple minds can only handle one thing at a time. magical thyme Oct 2012 #5
DUH. An act of terror IS an act of terror. Period. IllinoisBirdWatcher Oct 2012 #6
+1 nt Javaman Oct 2012 #30
I too think it was both jmowreader Oct 2012 #7
Yes, of course. BlueStreak Oct 2012 #8
Romney lied about what the President said. That's the bottom line emulatorloo Oct 2012 #9
There was no protest in Libya. former9thward Oct 2012 #10
Susan Rice said that it was in response to what had happened in Cairo. Bolo Boffin Oct 2012 #27
No, they didn't say that. former9thward Oct 2012 #31
Yes, they did. Bolo Boffin Oct 2012 #32
The sworn testimony the State Department gave to Congress contradicts your claim. former9thward Oct 2012 #35
No, it does not. That testimony was a final conclusion. That's not what Rice was delivering. Bolo Boffin Oct 2012 #39
You may think anger about the murder of an Ambassador is a right wing attack. former9thward Oct 2012 #41
There was no goddamn coverup of anything. Bolo Boffin Oct 2012 #44
Your version continues to unravel by the day former9thward Oct 2012 #52
THERE WAS NO COVERUP OF ANYTHING. Bolo Boffin Oct 2012 #53
I'm sorry... but Abq_Sarah Oct 2012 #43
The attackers themselves said it was in response to the Cairo protests. Bolo Boffin Oct 2012 #45
What was the date that the attack deaniac21 Oct 2012 #11
9/11/2012 MoonRiver Oct 2012 #12
9/11 deaniac21 Oct 2012 #19
One of these days I'm going to read the previous replies before writing mine. Egalitarian Thug Oct 2012 #29
Protests and attacks on so many embassies and consulates were STILL going on for days after blm Oct 2012 #13
It was. The film was produced and released to cause DevonRex Oct 2012 #14
Remember, most of those people didn't even see it to begin with Blue_Tires Oct 2012 #20
Yeah. All they needed was 1 or 2 shows to DevonRex Oct 2012 #40
I don't even get why what it is to be labeled is the biggest issue treestar Oct 2012 #15
Would be visible on consulate security video recovered by FBI. One_Life_To_Give Oct 2012 #16
Oh, look at you SalviaBlue Oct 2012 #17
I do. There WAS no movie - just a trailer. On top of that, the weapons weren't riot stuff. HopeHoops Oct 2012 #18
Small arms *are* "riot stuff" in much of the world. Posteritatis Oct 2012 #22
Nuance was outlawed under the Patriot Act. (nt) Posteritatis Oct 2012 #21
We weren't really using it anyway... Jeff In Milwaukee Oct 2012 #23
Sorry, no. Report to the reeducation airlock, Citizen! (nt) Posteritatis Oct 2012 #33
Well, poo....(nt) Jeff In Milwaukee Oct 2012 #34
Romney conflated the two long before ANY Obama aide did karynnj Oct 2012 #24
The attackers themselves said it was in response to the video and the Cairo protests about them. Bolo Boffin Oct 2012 #25
I totally agree and have had this opinion since the initial days of it. n/t arthritisR_US Oct 2012 #26
Because the evidence indicates that it wasn't. Didn't the date of the attack ring any bells for you? Egalitarian Thug Oct 2012 #28
There were hundreds of protests that day, did you really see this one specific event coming? Motown_Johnny Oct 2012 #36
The entire State department, as well the military, goes into a heightened state of alert every Egalitarian Thug Oct 2012 #42
>>----------------------------------------------> Motown_Johnny Oct 2012 #46
Thank whatever that people more clever than you currently run things. n/t Egalitarian Thug Oct 2012 #49
That statement is pure conspiracy fantasy Motown_Johnny Oct 2012 #51
Oh, and of course the State Department did, not just me. Thanks for playing. n/t Egalitarian Thug Oct 2012 #50
it could have been, but it wasn't Enrique Oct 2012 #37
There was no movie. It was a hoax. slackmaster Oct 2012 #38
By "movie," people are referring to the trailer, the video. nt Honeycombe8 Oct 2012 #48
It could. One is the CAUSE. The other is a description of what was done (terrorism). nt Honeycombe8 Oct 2012 #47

tosh

(4,422 posts)
4. LOL! Indeed.
Wed Oct 17, 2012, 11:27 AM
Oct 2012

Last week I listened to a Limpballs-listener explain to me why I should be outraged. It was the first time I was made aware of the RW narrative of the incident. That was a serious moment for me.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
5. Very simple minds can only handle one thing at a time.
Wed Oct 17, 2012, 11:29 AM
Oct 2012

There cannot be 2 events merged into one, or 2 motivations that converge into one unit of space-time.

In the very simple world, there could not have been a protest against a movie happening at the same time and place as an act of terror, never mind a terrorist using a protest as cover for an act of terror. Either. Or.

IllinoisBirdWatcher

(2,315 posts)
6. DUH. An act of terror IS an act of terror. Period.
Wed Oct 17, 2012, 11:30 AM
Oct 2012

This IS a black and white issue.

Whether the timing was long-planned and/or triggered by a single video is a totally different question which remains unanswered.

The Rmoney lie was his claim that the President never said what he clearly said.

For the first time in this campaign, someone countered Rmoney in real-time and he was pissed. About time.

jmowreader

(50,546 posts)
7. I too think it was both
Wed Oct 17, 2012, 11:34 AM
Oct 2012

It was a terrorist attack. That much was obvious from the start.

But these guys don't just attack for no reason. Something had to set them off and the timing is very coincidental.

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
8. Yes, of course.
Wed Oct 17, 2012, 11:38 AM
Oct 2012

There was certainly a regional sense of chaos at that moment, and that is a very good time to strike (if you are a terrorist).

Very early on, it was clear that there was an organized element to the Benghazi attack. The administration never denied that.

There is some question where there were any movie-related protests in Benghazi at the time of the attack. It now seems maybe there were not, nonetheless, that was a major point of confusion and tension throughout the region at that moment.

There was, and remains, a real question as to just how organized and planned the attack was. "al Qaeda" isn't a rigid, hierarchical organization. Romney is used to a top-down corporate structure where he gets to call all the shots. He clear has no concept of anything else. al Qaeda has never been organized that way. It is a much more distributed organization, with most of the participants being only loosely affiliated.

It seems obvious to me that that was a an opportunistic attack. The riots were going on in the region, so these terrorists decided that was the moment to attack. If it were less opportunistic, they probably would have arranged to have more powerful explosives, resulting in a more forceful attack. As it was, this was a an even that spanned hours as they were mostly shooting with small arms.

The Republicans wanted to CUT FUNDING for embassies. Ryan argued that it was simply a matter of priorities. These MFs are damn good at Monday Morning Quarterbacking. There were 40 embassies in the region that could have been attacked. There really wasn't anything special about Benghazi. If we had moved the limited resources from other embassies to Benghazi, then the attack might have happened at another place, and these these same MFs would be saying we should have deployed the limited resources a different way.

The real question we should be asking is when we spend about a trillion bucks a year on various military stuff, why can't we provide safety for ALL of our embassies. That is surely plenty of money to get the job done, if we didn't piss most of it away on pointless wars and useless weapons systems.

emulatorloo

(44,100 posts)
9. Romney lied about what the President said. That's the bottom line
Wed Oct 17, 2012, 11:59 AM
Oct 2012

The rightwing can live in denial if they wish. Romney lied, he was caught lying, end of story.

former9thward

(31,963 posts)
10. There was no protest in Libya.
Wed Oct 17, 2012, 12:05 PM
Oct 2012

None. That is undisputed. The first thing the consulate knew was a grenade being thrown into the compound. Afterwards an organized heavily armed attack started. The Libyan "security" then pointed out the safe house to the attackers where the ambassador had retreated. They attacked that and killed him.

Bolo Boffin

(23,796 posts)
27. Susan Rice said that it was in response to what had happened in Cairo.
Thu Oct 18, 2012, 02:30 PM
Oct 2012

And the Cairo protests were about the movie.

And the attackers themselves said it was about the movie.

former9thward

(31,963 posts)
31. No, they didn't say that.
Thu Oct 18, 2012, 02:41 PM
Oct 2012

And Susan Rice for whatever her reason was did not tell the truth.

The State Department denied Tuesday it ever concluded that the deadly consulate attack Sept. 11 in Libya was an unplanned outburst prompted by an anti-Islam movie, despite public statements early on by some in the Obama administration suggesting that was the case.


The State Department gave testimony under oath to Congress that the video had nothing to do with the Libya attacks.

former9thward

(31,963 posts)
35. The sworn testimony the State Department gave to Congress contradicts your claim.
Thu Oct 18, 2012, 03:49 PM
Oct 2012
Wood said that when he heard of the attack on the Benghazi post on September 11, it was “instantly recognizable” that it had been a terrorist attack. http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/10/security-officer-on-state-department-blocking-requests-for-me-the-taliban-is-inside-the-building/

I don't expect you to ever get your facts straight so I know you will be "speaking again".

Bolo Boffin

(23,796 posts)
39. No, it does not. That testimony was a final conclusion. That's not what Rice was delivering.
Thu Oct 18, 2012, 04:20 PM
Oct 2012

Why are you here repeating right-wing attack lines against the President, former9thward?

former9thward

(31,963 posts)
41. You may think anger about the murder of an Ambassador is a right wing attack.
Thu Oct 18, 2012, 09:11 PM
Oct 2012

Especially one who requested more security. That just shows how out of touch you are. I won't participate in a cover up just for momentary partisan advantage.

former9thward

(31,963 posts)
52. Your version continues to unravel by the day
Fri Oct 19, 2012, 03:17 PM
Oct 2012
WASHINGTON—The CIA station chief in Libya reported to Washington within 24 hours of last month's deadly attack on the U.S. Consulate that there was evidence it was carried out by militants, not a spontaneous mob upset about an American-made video ridiculing Islam's Prophet Muhammad, U.S. officials have told The Associated Press.

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_21808401/cia-found-militant-links-day-after-libya-attack

Bolo Boffin

(23,796 posts)
53. THERE WAS NO COVERUP OF ANYTHING.
Fri Oct 19, 2012, 03:35 PM
Oct 2012

What do you think was covered up here, and why? Come on, spill your guts. Cut to the chase.

What was Barack Obama and the US government covering up here? Produce your thoughts and your evidence. I fucking dare you.

Abq_Sarah

(2,883 posts)
43. I'm sorry... but
Thu Oct 18, 2012, 09:27 PM
Oct 2012

The people from diplomatic security at the State Department were in contact with the consulate as the attack unfolded and they knew for a fact there were no demonstrations and it was a highly organized terrorist attack.


Trying to blame an organized terrorist attack on a video is just dumb, particularly since everyone knew the facts would come out.

Bolo Boffin

(23,796 posts)
45. The attackers themselves said it was in response to the Cairo protests.
Thu Oct 18, 2012, 09:40 PM
Oct 2012

I don't know how much more plain it can be.

blm

(113,038 posts)
13. Protests and attacks on so many embassies and consulates were STILL going on for days after
Wed Oct 17, 2012, 12:10 PM
Oct 2012

the Libya attack specifically because of that anti-Islam film. The WH would have been completely derelict to not target the film and distance the nation's position from the blatant propaganda being pushed in that film.

DevonRex

(22,541 posts)
14. It was. The film was produced and released to cause
Wed Oct 17, 2012, 12:14 PM
Oct 2012

riots. The YouTube was translated and hyped to Middle East TV stations for this purpose. Right on time those TV stations led with the story and riots ensued.

In Libya a smallish riot was used as a cover for this attack. By that time large riots were occurring elsewhere so riots led he news; thus riot was the first assumption.

It was apparent to anybody on the ground that this was a commando attack, very well planned and equipped and executed.

I'm not sure al Qaeda is to blame on this one. The degree of planning is a far cut above usual, as is the execution. Anybody can see that it's not their style. Seriously.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
20. Remember, most of those people didn't even see it to begin with
Thu Oct 18, 2012, 01:47 PM
Oct 2012

iirc, the first person to make an issue of it was the Libyan(?) equivalent of Glenn Beck's "whip-everyone-into-mass-raging-hysteria" show...From there, the anger spread through word-of-mouth...

DevonRex

(22,541 posts)
40. Yeah. All they needed was 1 or 2 shows to
Thu Oct 18, 2012, 06:25 PM
Oct 2012

run with the story. That's just the way it is. People gather for prayers and they talk afterwards.

We would be the same way if our society centered around public calls for prayer and community prayer rooms, no matter which religion it was.

In this case I believe Islam was used to further western political ends.

One_Life_To_Give

(6,036 posts)
16. Would be visible on consulate security video recovered by FBI.
Wed Oct 17, 2012, 12:18 PM
Oct 2012

The FBI recovered the security Video from the consulate and reportedly there was no protest. IIRC that is what the local residents in Benghazi said originally as well.

Posteritatis

(18,807 posts)
22. Small arms *are* "riot stuff" in much of the world.
Thu Oct 18, 2012, 02:17 PM
Oct 2012

Rifles and maybe mortars in the hands of not-the-army in a country that just finished a civil war isn't exactly odd.

karynnj

(59,501 posts)
24. Romney conflated the two long before ANY Obama aide did
Thu Oct 18, 2012, 02:23 PM
Oct 2012

His very first statement condemned the Cairo embassy's statement saying it was a poor response (of the Obama administration ) to riots/terror. That the statement preceded anything happening in Libya or Eqypt was ignored.

The fact was that the administration had to deal with both the Libyan assassination aftermath AND riots in at least 10 Moslem countries at the same time. They HAD to speak of their revulsion to all the film represented.

Bolo Boffin

(23,796 posts)
25. The attackers themselves said it was in response to the video and the Cairo protests about them.
Thu Oct 18, 2012, 02:28 PM
Oct 2012
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/16/world/africa/election-year-stakes-overshadow-nuances-of-benghazi-investigation.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

To those on the ground, the circumstances of the attack are hardly a mystery. Most of the attackers made no effort to hide their faces or identities, and during the assault some acknowledged to a Libyan journalist working for The New York Times that they belonged to the group. And their attack drew a crowd, some of whom cheered them on, some of whom just gawked, and some of whom later looted the compound.

The fighters said at the time that they were moved to act because of the video, which had first gained attention across the region after a protest in Egypt that day. The assailants approvingly recalled a 2006 assault by local Islamists that had destroyed an Italian diplomatic mission in Benghazi over a perceived insult to the prophet. In June the group staged a similar attack against the Tunisian Consulate over a different film, according to the Congressional testimony of the American security chief at the time, Eric A. Nordstrom.

At a news conference the day after the ambassador and three other Americans were killed, a spokesman for Ansar al-Shariah praised the attack as the proper response to such an insult to Islam. “We are saluting our people for this zeal in protecting their religion, to grant victory to the prophet,” the spokesman said. “The response has to be firm.” Other Benghazi militia leaders who know the group say its leaders and ideology are all homegrown. Those leaders, including Ahmed Abu Khattala and Mohammed Ali Zahawi, fought alongside other commanders against Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi. Their group provides social services and guards a hospital. And they openly proselytize for their brand of puritanical Islam and political vision.


And here's what Susan Rice said:

RICE: [O]ur current best assessment, based on the information that we have at present, is that, in fact, what this began as, it was a spontaneous — not a premeditated — response to what had transpired in Cairo. In Cairo, as you know, a few hours earlier, there was a violent protest that was undertaken in reaction to this very offensive video that was disseminated.
We believe that folks in Benghazi, a small number of people came to the embassy to — or to the consulate, rather, to replicate the sort of challenge that was posed in Cairo. And then as that unfolded, it seems to have been hijacked, let us say, by some individual clusters of extremists who came with heavier weapons, weapons that as you know in — in the wake of the revolution in Libya are — are quite common and accessible. And it then evolved from there.

We’ll wait to see exactly what the investigation finally confirms, but that’s the best information we have at present.


There were two phases to this attack - the one on the initial site (the consulate) and then the safe house most had been evacuated to (about two kilos away). The first attack didn't have the same kind of organization as the first, but that seems to be due to how large the consulate site was (at least three football fields long, four buildings), whereas the safe house site was one much smaller location and took a great deal of concentrated force. There were also various levels of intensity in the initial attack, so what Susan Rice said five days after the attack was pretty reasonable at the time. And, it should be noted, what she said is still mostly true. There was just no hijacking of an initial attack by a second, more militaristic force.
 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
42. The entire State department, as well the military, goes into a heightened state of alert every
Thu Oct 18, 2012, 09:19 PM
Oct 2012

Sept. 11th. Since this one incident was the only one that instigated a direct attack on us, I'm pretty sure that the people in charge had a pretty good idea that this one was not just another demonstration of Islamic outrage. Why the producers of that "film" have not been treated to the whole WOT police state apparatus our government saw fit to implement and retain after 2001 seems pretty suspicious.

 

Motown_Johnny

(22,308 posts)
51. That statement is pure conspiracy fantasy
Fri Oct 19, 2012, 07:41 AM
Oct 2012

Be thankful that people with a firmer grip on reality run things.

Enrique

(27,461 posts)
37. it could have been, but it wasn't
Thu Oct 18, 2012, 03:54 PM
Oct 2012

we have heard various things about how big a role the movie played. The latest that I have heard is that the movie played no role.

 

slackmaster

(60,567 posts)
38. There was no movie. It was a hoax.
Thu Oct 18, 2012, 03:56 PM
Oct 2012

Please explain why the term "act of terror" would NOT apply if there had been an actual movie, and the attack actually was a reaction to the movie.

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