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Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:01 PM

Did I Cross The Line?

I went to an outdoor lunch today with my Republican friend (let's call her Sue) and her friend (let's call her Mary) who also happens to be a Republican. They're not just republicans but they are Trumplicans. I know...I know...why do I have a Trumplican for a friend?! I live in Florida....what can I say?? Sue is my only Trumplican friend. I dropped my other ones but this one is hard to drop because she truly is a good person

Anyway, politics came up and they went on and on about how they feel and I went on and on about how i feel. You wouldn't even believe how this conversation went!

But anyway, then it went to how they think Biden has dementia. And I said to them "Do you know why you think Biden has dementia? It's because Fox News has you believing that. Just like in 2016, just before the election, you all believed Hillary was dying of pneumonia because Fox News kept telling you she was! Last I saw, Hillary is very much alive!" So Mary asked if I thought Fox News brainwashes them and I said yes. Both Sue and Mary were flabbergasted with me!

I said let me give you one more small example of showing you how I think Fox News reports things (or in this example, doesn't report things). I asked them to imagine if Hillary had become President and she had put Chelsea in her administration, I said that would have been a 24/7 news story on Fox News on how absolutely horrendous it is that Hillary did that! And then both of you would have vilified Hillary for doing that. Yet, Trump puts Ivanka in there, and not a peep from Fox News! So because Fox News doesn't vilify Trump 24/7 for doing that, you both were completely comfortable with Trump putting Ivanka in his administration

I said these are 2 examples of how Fox News and other right wing media brainwashes people

Again, they were flabbergasted that I said they were being brainwashed! They did not like it one bit!

So, did I cross the line and go too far by telling Sue and Mary, to their faces, that I think they are being brainwashed??

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Arrow 113 replies Author Time Post
Reply Did I Cross The Line? (Original post)
DemUnleashed Jun 2021 OP
gratuitous Jun 2021 #1
soldierant Jun 2021 #96
lagomorph777 Jun 2021 #106
wcmagumba Jun 2021 #2
Dustlawyer Jun 2021 #109
GemDigger Jun 2021 #3
Native Jun 2021 #4
smirkymonkey Jun 2021 #64
Moostache Jun 2021 #5
summer_in_TX Jun 2021 #48
CrackityJones75 Jun 2021 #76
griffi94 Jun 2021 #81
aggiesal Jun 2021 #50
ShazzieB Jun 2021 #65
chia Jun 2021 #71
PoindexterOglethorpe Jun 2021 #94
lagomorph777 Jun 2021 #107
Rabrrrrrr Jun 2021 #112
onecaliberal Jun 2021 #6
pandr32 Jun 2021 #7
Demovictory9 Jun 2021 #8
vanlassie Jun 2021 #9
Gregory Peccary Jun 2021 #10
yardwork Jun 2021 #11
CentralMass Jun 2021 #12
zuul Jun 2021 #13
DemUnleashed Jun 2021 #14
KS Toronado Jun 2021 #42
luckone Jun 2021 #15
IcyPeas Jun 2021 #16
lark Jun 2021 #47
Ilsa Jun 2021 #79
lark Jun 2021 #111
DET Jun 2021 #17
3catwoman3 Jun 2021 #18
UpInArms Jun 2021 #19
JI7 Jun 2021 #20
11 Bravo Jun 2021 #21
jimfields33 Jun 2021 #22
DemUnleashed Jun 2021 #23
relayerbob Jun 2021 #24
JHB Jun 2021 #25
Fla Dem Jun 2021 #26
lucca18 Jun 2021 #27
AllaN01Bear Jun 2021 #28
Rebl2 Jun 2021 #29
BradBo Jun 2021 #30
Scrivener7 Jun 2021 #31
Caliman73 Jun 2021 #32
PlanetBev Jun 2021 #33
BaronChocula Jun 2021 #34
doc03 Jun 2021 #35
multigraincracker Jun 2021 #36
Native Jun 2021 #52
smirkymonkey Jun 2021 #66
Grumpy Old Guy Jun 2021 #37
lpbk2713 Jun 2021 #38
doc03 Jun 2021 #39
SpankMe Jun 2021 #40
EarnestPutz Jun 2021 #41
wryter2000 Jun 2021 #43
barbtries Jun 2021 #44
Joinfortmill Jun 2021 #45
underpants Jun 2021 #46
marble falls Jun 2021 #49
Scalded Nun Jun 2021 #51
Hortensis Jun 2021 #53
Mickju Jun 2021 #54
Alien Life Form Jun 2021 #55
paleotn Jun 2021 #56
Vinca Jun 2021 #57
llashram Jun 2021 #58
liberal_mama Jun 2021 #59
world wide wally Jun 2021 #60
Dan Jun 2021 #61
sarisataka Jun 2021 #62
Duppers Jun 2021 #63
czarjak Jun 2021 #67
appleannie1 Jun 2021 #68
chia Jun 2021 #69
ShazzieB Jun 2021 #70
dchill Jun 2021 #72
duhneece Jun 2021 #73
CrackityJones75 Jun 2021 #74
DemUnleashed Jun 2021 #75
PatrickforB Jun 2021 #77
crickets Jun 2021 #78
DemUnleashed Jun 2021 #80
ancianita Jun 2021 #82
jmbar2 Jun 2021 #83
R Merm Jun 2021 #84
bucolic_frolic Jun 2021 #85
MissMillie Jun 2021 #86
Tarc Jun 2021 #87
womanofthehills Jun 2021 #108
NNadir Jun 2021 #88
mgardener Jun 2021 #89
aeromanKC Jun 2021 #90
BobTheSubgenius Jun 2021 #91
Martin68 Jun 2021 #92
Rhiannon12866 Jun 2021 #93
ybbor Jun 2021 #95
seta1950 Jun 2021 #97
SunSeeker Jun 2021 #98
FoxNewsSucks Jun 2021 #99
Mike Nelson Jun 2021 #100
Wounded Bear Jun 2021 #101
MrsCoffee Jun 2021 #102
MiHale Jun 2021 #103
Bernardo de La Paz Jun 2021 #104
sheilahi Jun 2021 #105
NoMoreRepugs Jun 2021 #110
Rabrrrrrr Jun 2021 #113

Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:04 PM

1. From your narrative

It sounds like they brought up the notion of brainwashing first. If they're offended by the term, perhaps they should have thought of a different one?

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Response to gratuitous (Reply #1)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 11:04 PM

96. Exactly.

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Response to gratuitous (Reply #1)

Tue Jun 29, 2021, 08:24 AM

106. It sounds like their brains need to be washed; they are full of Fox filth.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:05 PM

2. Good on you...tough love...

unfortunately you may have to reevaluate those friendships (imo)...I don't think you went too far though, just a bit of honesty...

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Response to wcmagumba (Reply #2)

Tue Jun 29, 2021, 10:37 AM

109. I would suggest you and your friends set aside some time to watch and compare news channels together

Flip back and forth to see what they are covering on the same news day. Fox is always on a negative about Dems on every story. Their reports are almost always on different stories/reports than the other networks. There may be a big story of the day on the other networks and Fox will have a retrospective about BLM from last summer.

It may give you an opportunity to demonstrate the Fox News difference and discuss it in real time. Maybe you can preserve your friendship and educate your friend as to propaganda.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:05 PM

3. I think you handled it quite well. nt

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:05 PM

4. Why is it that we are the only ones that worry about offending them or crossing the line?

They are always super vocal and don't hold anything back, and yet we when we do stand up for ourselves or contradict anything they say or point out that they're wrong, we're concerned we might be offending them. I am so over that!

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Response to Native (Reply #4)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 04:47 PM

64. +1000

 

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:05 PM

5. I dispute one contention you made...

No one is both a Trumplican AND a good person.
They must choose between maintaining contact with reality or diving into the cesspool of Trumpland.

Just as no one can be 'partly pregnant', so too can no one be 'a good Trumplican'...

Otherwise, I think you're spot on.

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Response to Moostache (Reply #5)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 04:09 PM

48. When a person is warm, welcoming, and generous,

when they go out of their way to help others, yes, they are a good person.

Good people can be brainwashed into having very bad beliefs.

Those of us in rural America encounter good Trumplicans pretty regularly.

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Response to summer_in_TX (Reply #48)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 05:24 PM

76. Sorry but no.

 

There are mo good people that support what he did and does. MAYBE if they listed a number of the horrible things that he did and said they did not agree with him on those thenÖ. MAYBEÖ.. maybe. But sorry the only way he accomplishes some of the shitty things he did is through some level of support.

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Response to summer_in_TX (Reply #48)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 05:52 PM

81. And yet,

When the OP said he thought they were brainwashed, they were flabbergasted.
I try to avoid seeing the universe as stark, black/white, right/wrong choices. However, as pointed out above,
it's hard to reconcile Trumpism with being a good person. It's like only vomiting a little bit. My family all lives in East Texas, it's
difficult to separate their extremism from any good qualities that they have.

At the end of the day, if Trump had peaceful protesters machine-gunned, they would have either rationalized it, looked the other way,
or, more probably, used "what aboutism" to immediately forgiven him and themselves.

Character and honesty, which was such a big deal when Clinton lied about a BJ, was different when Trump paid hush money to a porn star.

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Response to Moostache (Reply #5)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 04:11 PM

50. Mutually exclusive ...

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Response to Moostache (Reply #5)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 04:50 PM

65. I don't believe that most people are ALL good or ALL bad.

We humans are complicated creatures, and most of us are a mix of varying qualities that range from terrible to wonderful. There are people like the former guy in whom the bad qualities predominate to the point where they crowd everything else out, and I believe most of us are farther to one side of the continuum or the other. But 100% totally evil with no redeeming qualities whatsoever is a rarity imo, as is 100% totally good. For this reason, I am very uncomfortable with absolutist statements such as "ALL _____ are bad people" or "There is no such thing as a good _____."

Case in point: I had an aunt (now long deceased) who did a tremendous amount for my family. She came and stayed with us for an extended period of time on two different occasions, to care for my sister and me while our mother was hospitalized. During those times, she washed, ironed, and mended our clothes, cooked our meals, kept our house clean, and provided a stable home base for us while our dad was working long hours. Without her help, little sis and I would have been farmed out to stay with family friends, probably in separate locations, instead of being able to remain in our own home together. She gave us a sense of stability that we needed badly. We loved her, and she loved us.

This same aunt was also racist af. She didn't actively hate black people so much as regard them as being not fully human. During the 60s, when the civil rights rights movement was at its peak, she was very much against integration and everything to do with it. If she'd still been alive in 2016, I could definitely see her voting for Trump.

I was disturbed by her racist views at the time, and writing about them now, I am absolutely appalled. Still, I know to the core of my being that she was not an "evil" person. She wasn't an angel, either: she was just an old fashioned southern woman with a GIGANTIC blind spot. She was dead wrong in her racist attitudes, of course, but I can't remember the love and care she showed for her 2 young nieces and say that despite all the good she did for us, she had to have been completely "evil" because she had some disturbing and erroneous beliefs.

A person with many good qualities can have erroneous beliefs and blind spots. A person who is deeply, disturbingly, profoundly wrong about certain things can at the same time also have good qualities. Such people are flawed, perhaps severely so, but that does not NECESSARILY make them 100% unadulterated evil. This is a paradox, but life is full of paradoxes.

I agree that there are Trump supporters who are as "evil" as he is, but I don't think all of them are. I suspect that a lot of them are like my aunt: deeply flawed people with very large, possibly multiple, blind spots (and some "good qualities), who have been led disastrously astray.

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Response to ShazzieB (Reply #65)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 05:04 PM

71. Beautifully written, thank you for that.

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Response to ShazzieB (Reply #65)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 10:41 PM

94. Thank you for that story.

I was going to tell the OP that her friend could not possibly be a good person and a Trump supporter, but you've made me understand differently. Thank you again.

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Response to Moostache (Reply #5)

Tue Jun 29, 2021, 08:25 AM

107. 100% agree. Aligning with Trump demonstrates severe character defects.

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Response to Moostache (Reply #5)

Tue Jun 29, 2021, 02:50 PM

112. I would add an adjustment - good people cannot be Trumplicans; but Trumplicans can sometimes do good

I do agree that the values that Trump lives by are so outrageous that no decent, good, ethical person could be a Trump supporter or fan.

However, even those whose moral compass is completely out of whack can still do good things: and in the case of MAGAts it is generally confined to doing good things for their family, their friends, or people they can see/touch. Which acts are all acts that are good; but are also insufficient to actually say that they are good people. Being virulently, even violently, anti-gay but then becoming gay-okay simply because finally enough of one's friends or family have come out is not the sign of an inherently good person: it's a person who doesn't care about the harm they are causing until it harms someone they know. Until they can abstract that out to all people, fuck 'em.

As Jesus said, even awful people can still love their families and feed their children - it's just that that's a bar that's too damn low to matter.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:06 PM

6. Facts are pesky things. Good for you saying it to their face.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:06 PM

7. Hopefully it left a mark

Maybe it will gnaw at them a bit.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:06 PM

8. Right on!!! Great example

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:07 PM

9. Well if they ASKED you....

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:08 PM

10. Cross the line? Hell, you probably didn't go far enough!

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:10 PM

11. Sounds like you handled it very well.

If your friend was in an abusive relationship, would you try to help her see it?

Fox does brainwash its viewers. You pointed it out using facts to back up your opinion. Good work.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:11 PM

12. I applaud your efforts. I don't think it is possible to change the minds of Faux brainwashed people

that easily, but I applaud you for trying.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:15 PM

13. You did a great job.

And you were far nicer than I would have been.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:18 PM

14. Thank you!

Thank you all for your support...you make me feel better!

Yes, Gratuitous, they brought up the term 'brainwashing' first

Totally agree, Native...why are we always held to higher standards??!

Have to agree with you, Moostache...no Trumplican can actually be a good person

Ha ha, Gregory Peccary!

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Response to DemUnleashed (Reply #14)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:50 PM

42. If they really care about truth

suggest they do an internet search for "fox news brainwashing", might remind them "The Truth Will Set You Free"

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:19 PM

15. It's not like you said fuck their feelings or the sane world is laughing at you idiots or you

are still following trump you must be part of his dwindling cult whats that feel like ?
Donít expect to change them but thank you for speaking up.
It is the silence that will keep trump alive in conversations everywhere . Something very wrong but said in private and let to stand among those included is just as affirming as public medium to many

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:19 PM

16. I also have 2 republican friends - we met at the same workplace

when we get together (we no longer work together) for brunch we just don't ever mention politics. It slipped out once and they both claimed there were caravans of illegals coming over the border and that democrats wanted open borders. I find it hard to argue with people especially when it's 2 against 1 so we just dropped the subject. Anyway I can't bring myself to have brunch with these women any more. It's too hard to try and ignore politics for me.

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Response to IcyPeas (Reply #16)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 04:08 PM

47. I also live in FL and have a repug friend.

She's strange, pro-science, pro mask, pro vaccine, hates Rick Scott, thinks drumpf is crass, but smart and a good businessman (we did have that one conversation where I enlightened her and she dropped that like a hot potato). She's still a died in the wool repug and he did push repug policies. She'd prefer Mitt, but would vote for drumpf against a Dem. She's also fairly elderly although still quite sharp, but just can't overcome 79 years of republicanism.

She also needs me right now, has lost so many family members plus her husband and 2 dogs (seriously!) over the past year and a half, so we just agreed not to discuss politics until she can get her life back together. She will probably be moving to GA to live with her sister within a year. I will miss her greatly, she is a true friend. However I will not miss having to not discuss certain important issues with her. We put each other above our politics and college football preferences as well.

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Response to lark (Reply #47)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 05:45 PM

79. Maybe with the new laws, the GOP

will stop her from voting in Georgia.

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #79)

Tue Jun 29, 2021, 11:11 AM

111. There is no stopping her. She is one of the most determined people I know.

She's formidable and would stand in line however long it took, with her sisters right beside her.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:19 PM

17. Hardly

I doubt that I could have been as polite as you were.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:22 PM

18. Perhaps you made a little chink in their mental armor...

...and they will think about what you said.

Let's guess that neither of them actually listens to any of Joe Biden's speeches, but only to Fox analysis about them. There is absolutely NOTHING about President Biden that is even remotely suggestive of dementia.

I do not think you crossed any lines.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:22 PM

19. You did well

and I hope they think about what you said

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:24 PM

20. No, I would say you were too soft with them

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:24 PM

21. Hell, I think you were the soul of understatement and restraint!

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:26 PM

22. There is a million things to talk about.

Say no to politics and religion. It will save many friendships.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:27 PM

23. Thanks

Yes Central Mass and luckone, I don't think their right wing media'd minds can be changed!

Icypeas and jimfields33, Sue kept saying "Let's not talk politics" but Mary kept going back to it. I don't want to do lunch with these 2 women ever again. We'll see if I continue seeing Sue, separately, though

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:28 PM

24. As long as you were nice about it, and it sounds like you were, Nope

Last edited Sun Jul 11, 2021, 07:32 PM - Edit history (1)

They all need to understand they've bought into sheer and utter lies and bullshit

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:31 PM

25. They're the ones who used that word. If they'd let you phrase it yourself...

...would you have used that word, or would you use some more diplomatic wording?

FOX has them believing things that are demonstrably not true, and they're not exactly cross-checking it's coverage with outside perspectives. They're not being tortured to believe falsehoods, they're uncritically swallowing stuff that confirms their biases and let's them feel superior to all the "idiots" who don't know "the real deal."

In the same situation, I phrase it more genteelly, but "brainwashed" is still accurate, and since they're the ones who used it, they have no right to get their nose out of joint for you agreeing to their word. The shoe fit.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:37 PM

26. Yes you did! But some lines need to be crossed.

I think you did a great job in making the comparison between Hillary and Trump as far as nepotism is concerned. It was an excellent point. You could have thrown in Jared as well. He pretty much managed our foreign relations.

I also have a very dear friend who leans right. Would not say SHE is a Trumper, but there are several in her family. We do not discuss politics. The funny thing is she and her family were staunch Dems back in the day of Kennedy and Johnson. But social issues drove a wedge in her thinking. More recently this "defund the police" hype the Right has been pushing, has been an issue because her brother was a state trooper. Also her late husband was pretty solidly republican.

Hope your discussion with your friend has positive results.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:37 PM

27. Not. At. All.

You did a great job!

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:37 PM

28. good job. i prolly would have gone completley overboard.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:38 PM

29. Nope!

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:39 PM

30. You need to dump personal friends.

I have work friends I have to respect to a certain extent.
But personal friends I have kicked down the road. My wives friends get a pass because I have no right to pick her friends.
I had no problem telling one old friend to fuckoff when he went full racist Trump.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:41 PM

31. You were mild. Which is how one has to be in these situations. That's why I can't be in

these situations.

Good job!

I have one friend who is a fan of TFG. We just don't talk about it. By mutual agreement.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:42 PM

32. Lines are arbitrary in most cases.

There are some lines that may be recognized by many or most people, but it is very subjective. As you said in your post, they asked if you thought they were being brainwashed and you answered honestly. You have to ask yourself if there was more harm in giving your truthful opinion, or lying to them. Anyone would be indignant about having been called brainwashed. It takes a special person to really look at their own biases and actually seek out some kind of less biased way of assessing their beliefs.

I do have to agree somewhat with Moostache who was doubting that Trump supporters can be "good people". I can't say that I completely agree with the assessment, but it is difficult to say that someone who completely agrees with and supports Trump's agenda could be considered a "good" person. There are conservatives who are good people but hold misguided views on certain issues. We can all be that way. Trump however, is corrupt, amoral, and immoral. He is a horrible person and people who admire him for what he represents, are admiring a person who is vindictive, petty, crooked, and sadistic. You cannot separate the "man" from his acts. He is acting on his desires and beliefs. If a person has any ethical mooring, any anchoring in religious ideas, it would be difficult to say that Trump would meet the criteria of being a decent person who should be respected or admired. The fact that they do, means that they are either deluding themselves and not operating in reality, or that they support him, which would make them "not good people".

You have to decide if you crossed a line based on your relationship. I am sure they will also let you know based on how they respond (or don't). In my opinion, you did nothing wrong. If people are asking for your opinion as to whether they are brainwashed if they are watching Fox and other right wing media, then the honest answer is always, yes. Right wing media pushes ideology over tangible facts and actions. People who watch that media exclusively, or buy into the idea that "liberal media" is lying, are definitely bainwashed.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:43 PM

33. You handled it way better than I would have

I would have hurled my Caesar salad at them. I canít be around those people.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:43 PM

34. You are a genius

whether or not you crossed the line. So many of my progressive or progressive-ish friends are paralyzed when it comes to throwing white nationalist (sorry, but that's what it is) hypocrisy back in their face. They can't cite examples of Fox News BS the way you can. You did what you needed to do which was stand your moral ground with specific illustrations. That is what everyone should be doing. Kudos.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:43 PM

35. I don't think so I do it all the time, they dont

get it anyway.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:43 PM

36. I was in a gas station last week and a guy

about 40 was saying how he couldnít get a job because he was a White male. I told him those nonwhites and women have felt same way for hundreds years. He shut up and left.

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Response to multigraincracker (Reply #36)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 04:14 PM

52. Great response.

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Response to multigraincracker (Reply #36)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 04:50 PM

66. Good for you!

 

Great comeback!

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:45 PM

37. You could have answered the question about dementia with one word.

Covfefe!

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:46 PM

38. Ding ... Ding ... Ding ...




You gave them a wake up call.

It doesn't look like it did any good though.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:46 PM

39. Let me guess the subject of politics was started

by one of them. It always seems like the Republicans start with the politics.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:46 PM

40. No. You didn't go too far.

The lack of any pushback on a skewed belief system has the same effect as re-enforcing that belief system.

If I never tell my kid it's bad to do drugs - even after he's had a bad trip with drugs - then he sees it as re-enforcing that drugs are OK. Or, at least an acceptable risk.

People who live in a bubble need to be told inconvenient truths. The longer they live in that vacuum, the harder it'll be to keep them in the fold of informed citizenry.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:48 PM

41. You did fine. I told a repub friend that he wasn't brainwashed because just a light rinse.....

......was all that was needed.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:50 PM

43. Sounds like you made some progress

You dwelt on facts. You didn't call them stupid It sounds respectful.

If gratuitous is right and they used the term "brainwashed" first, that shows they were already thinking in that direction.

As long as you remain friends, I imagine they'll avoid politics in the future and you can continue to be friends.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:53 PM

44. i suppose in their world you did.

truth tellers be vilified. But I'm glad you told them the truth and i hope it made you feel good. it's so frustrating - somehow we're supposed to listen, understand, be patient - well maybe let them do those things for a minute.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:53 PM

45. No.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 03:54 PM

46. Sounds perfectly accurate and reasonable to me

Dementia
Sippy Cup
Etc. they get do used to hearing it no longer has an affect.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 04:09 PM

49. There is nothing wrong with honestly answering their question in an open, honest, non emotional ...

.... way. And that's exactly what you did, and you used two very good examples.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 04:14 PM

51. You cannot be a 'good person' and a Trump supporter.

Those two terms lie in direct and unalterable opposition to each other.

Have lunch with them, talk to them, go to a concert with them...just do not lie to yourself about them being 'good people'.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 04:16 PM

53. We'll be on the other side of this someday, and guessing you'll want Sue for a friend.

So if you injured your relationship (and your own credibility) yes. I know what you mean when you say she's a good person at the same time she's wilfully part of something very bad. We have the same problem.

Maybe stay away from politics for a bit. Later on, stick to offering what you know to be true on any topic raised, and counter her statements by explaining how your goals and principles guide your choices. Acknowledge her principles. But otherwise leave her and her mental state out of it. Always.

Do NOT "accept the premise" from the Dark Side by arguing about it. Speak any truth you know, but otherwise turn your back on the lie and switch to positive things you both want, like prosperity and security. Talk about the good you expect to come from X, or how reassured you personally are by Biden's 50 years of experience in government, or whatever.

If you don't have a truth at hand to refute an accusation, but the accusation is completely opposed to what Democrats believe in and would do (they usually are!), say so. "No, we're not going to let people on Medicare go without medical care to fund the infrastructure bill. We're the Medicare people. We wouldn't do that." It's right to know who we are and to believe in ourselves. It's not stupid.

This is the sort of thing we do, anyway.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 04:17 PM

54. You did the right thing.

I would like to do the same with my sister, but she is just too volatile. I try to keep the peace. I admire you for what you did.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 04:17 PM

55. There are two questions I ask of anyone before I have a discussion

1) Who won the last Presidential race

2) does Joe Biden have dementia

If i dont get the proper answers I simply tell the person " I dont discuss things with someone so detached from reality. Go get a job at Fox news "

Then either continue the discussion on another topic or they walk away and I dont give a damn

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 04:22 PM

56. Nope. No line crossed. You told the painful truth.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 04:25 PM

57. Cross the line? I don't think so. Most of us would have called them ignorant morons and

stormed away from the meal. You should have mentioned the pandemic Obama was faced with and how few people died vs. Covid which was entirely ignored by Trump and has cost upwards of 600,000 Americans their lives. Hope this pair was vaccinated for your sake.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 04:25 PM

58. No

truth is always hard to accept. Maybe, just maybe after they think and talk about it, they will understand the brainwashing tecniques they are subjected to.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 04:37 PM

59. I think a lot of the repubs I know realize that they are being brainwashed

But they like it.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 04:38 PM

60. Yeah,

But they put themselves on the stupid side of the line.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 04:41 PM

61. Outstanding

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 04:42 PM

62. Are these two Republican friends

The same two you had lunch with a couple months ago and had roughly the same conversation?

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 04:45 PM

63. NO, not at all.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 04:54 PM

67. A+!!!!!

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 04:59 PM

68. I don't think so. My sister and her husband are MAGA nuts

When they came to my state and stayed with me, he asked if I had a radio. When I asked why he needed one I found out it was to
listen to Rush Limbaugh, something he did daily. I told him I would find one for him and show him where the outdoor outlet was located. He wanted to know why he had to listen outside. I simply answered "Because I don't allow hate in my house" When I visited them, my sister made him turn off the TV. The knob might be glued to FOX. It is the only station they watch.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 05:01 PM

69. Brava!

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 05:02 PM

70. You did great.

Absolutely great!

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 05:14 PM

72. Did you cross the line?

Well, I'm betting you didn't physically attack them, so, no. (That would be my line.)

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 05:16 PM

73. Fox attorney used defense that no reasonable viewers believe Tucker

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 05:21 PM

74. huh.

 

Your really truly good friend supports a very bad horrible person. Its ok to let them drop.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 05:22 PM

75. To sarisataka

No, these are 2 different people...not the same as the other luncheon. Like I said, it's hard not to have republican friends when you live in Florida! But for the most part, Sue is it. I've dropped just about every other republican friend

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 05:28 PM

77. No, not at all.

Fox had people believing Obama was a socialist, too.

They've been lying their rear ends off for ages.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 05:36 PM

78. No, you didn't cross the line or go too far.

I sounds like you were very logical and reasonable in your response, and gave solid examples. If nothing else, you've given them something to think about, probably the next time they watch Fox. This is a good thing. They might actually stop to think about what they're being told instead of absorbing it unquestioned. You never know.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 05:49 PM

80. To Alien Life Form

3rd question.....Do you believe in Qanon?

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 05:53 PM

82. You were appropriate. There is no line, just a step you took into the truth zone, which

will set them free, but will first piss them off as they watch you standing in it, with them 'over here.'

They've trusted your opinion about most other things, so there's no reason to believe they won't give your logic some thought, because it has the advantage of being ground level true for them.
When it comes to changing minds, that's usually a gradual change, not a bolt of lightning.

By the way ... Damn good work!

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 06:05 PM

83. You need to go further

Invite them to a "mind experiment" at your place. Then, watch together a documentary called "The Brainwashing of my Dad".

Afterwards, discuss.

https://www.thebrainwashingofmydad.com/

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 06:08 PM

84. My next door neighbor called it an "abortion of an election", because all the dead people voted for

Biden. I told him that the dead people who voted for Biden had more going for them then anyone dumb enough to vote for trump. I walked away and haven't talked to him since.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 07:51 PM

85. I woud not have been so kind. I would have called them stupid, ignorant fools

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 08:04 PM

86. I probably would have mentioned the 1/6 defendents

that are now saying that their diet of RW Media lies is what made them violently attack the capitol.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 08:32 PM

87. "she truly is a good person"

She really isn't.

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Response to Tarc (Reply #87)

Tue Jun 29, 2021, 09:23 AM

108. I live in a rural area where lots of people were brought up as Republicans

One of my best friends has written many books on the local history of our town and surrounding areas but doesn't pay that much attention to politics. She has a love of the past but really is not into current politics. Her husband is one of the obsessive psychos for Trump people so she gets some info from him and it's bad info. We have agreed to not talk politics at all. If she forgets and brings something up, I will answer but we just almost totally stay away from politics. I never bring up politics with her - ever. She has a wealth of knowledge so she is fun to talk to. I have a Dem friend I am close to and when I mentioned a possible lab leak to her, she said I was a conspiracy theorist and called me a Republican???? Luckily, my guy is a progressive dem so we mostly agree. He actually left DU over his love of Bernie.

With friends - ask the question who will be there if you need help or have an emergency? My Republican friend will be there for me. I don't have to talk politics with everyone - in fact, it's kind of nice we don't talk politics. People who are too hard on their friends often have few friends. My significant other is like this - he says he is jealous that I have way more friends than he does. I give my friends a break. People are not "all" good or" all" bad .

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 08:33 PM

88. Well people in that set have a thing against hearing the truth, so there's that.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 08:40 PM

89. No

You gave concrete examples.
Ivanka was a perfect example.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 09:04 PM

90. You let them off too easy.

Only 2 examples?

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 09:23 PM

91. Not even close to "too far."

I'd venture to say "not far enough," although I really don't know where the margins of this conversation were.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 09:50 PM

92. Prophets are never understood in their own time.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 10:04 PM

93. You pointed out the truth to friends who are apparently happy believing blatant lies.

You did them a favor. I wouldn't have had the patience.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 10:45 PM

95. Not one bit

You did a civic duty showing them that their emperor has no clothes after they fawned over his elegant robes.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 11:10 PM

97. No

Actually you did them a favor by telling them the truth, question is do they appreciate it?

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 11:18 PM

98. Not at all. Everything you said was true. You answered their question.

They asked if you thought they were brainwashed. You responded and explained why.

What's really jarring is, judging by their response, you were the first to say that to them. They must live in a very insular bubble of right wingers.

They might not have liked it, but you popping that bubble was an important public service. People like these two are why we have done nothing substantial about climate change as our planet is being destroyed. We need to shake people like this out of their stupor for the sake of our country and planet.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Mon Jun 28, 2021, 11:28 PM

99. Not at all.

In fact, you were far too kind.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Tue Jun 29, 2021, 05:00 AM

100. No...

... some of the Trump cult will never change, but some are reachable. We may have to reach some of them. FOX and their ilk have great strengths and success... but you have the strength of being there, in person. Keep challenging Sue and Mary!

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Tue Jun 29, 2021, 05:20 AM

101. Not sure there is a "line to cross" with the Fox indoctrinated...nt

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Tue Jun 29, 2021, 05:50 AM

102. Can't truly be a good person and a Trumpublican.

Itís a cult of hate.

Convince me otherwise.



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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Tue Jun 29, 2021, 06:16 AM

103. Over the line?...Absolutely Not!...nt.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Tue Jun 29, 2021, 07:30 AM

104. Don't just flabbergast. Teach how to detect propaganda & how to counteract confirmation bias.


Give them an empowered feeling by giving them the tools to get better.

No I don't think you crossed the line. First, it is probably better to be frank, for long term strength of friendship. Second, you did give them some tools, though maybe there was opportunity for more.

However, you may have pushed the line, in the sense that sometimes telling people they are wrong first sets them against you and they don't listen to the rest (confirmation bias). You have to be artful to get them on your side and then "stop their world".

So maybe start a section by talking a bit about nepotism and how RepubliQons were angry at Hillary being tasked with health care reform in Bill's administration. They'll agree, it was terrible. Then go into your example with Chelsea. They'll say, yes that would be terrible. Then hit them with Ivanka and Chief Minister of Everything Minister Jared. Sort of just lay it on the table and let them flop around like fish out of water.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Tue Jun 29, 2021, 08:13 AM

105. great

Well this is just great. I already hate my R friends and now I've started hating yours too. This is getting to be hard work.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Tue Jun 29, 2021, 10:41 AM

110. Time for new friends. There is no line to cross when they have no touch with reality.

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Response to DemUnleashed (Original post)

Tue Jun 29, 2021, 02:54 PM

113. You did great!

And that whole "Biden has dementia" is so goddamned frustrating.

Trump says it once, FOX repeats it, and now every fucking MAGAt out there just posts on everything about Biden about he can't speak coherently and has dementia. Our local news' Facebook pages are filled with these assholes repeating that bullshit.

But then, they think Trump makes sense, and their own grammar and syntax belies any kind of reasoned or rational thought or ability to communicate, so maybe they really do think that sentences that have nouns AND verbs are suspect; and that paragraphs that have sentences and punctuation must be signs of an addled brain.

Put a semi-colon in front of those assholes and watch their heads explode.

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