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Mon Jun 21, 2021, 02:27 PM

Electric Vehicle Owners Should Not Pay Fees

In recent days/weeks, individuals have begun to discuss ways to make electric vehicle owners pay fees since they avoid paying the gas tax because their vehicles do not use gas. Electric vehicle owners should not have to pay fees as a result of owning electric vehicles. First, as far as I know, electric vehicle owners likely pay moderately higher electric bills because they have to charge their vehicles, likely at their homes. Those higher electric bills should be viewed as replacing the gas tax. Second, even though there is debate about the environmental impact of the manufacture of the batteries used in electric vehicles, it can be argued that the benefit to the environment gained from electric vehicles outweighs the fact that owners of electric vehicles do not pay gas taxes. I realize that the main purpose of the gas tax is to pay for the upkeep of roads and bridges and not solely to protect the environment; however, the benefit of electric vehicle ownership might still outweigh the need to regain lost money from a lack a gas taxes paid.

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Arrow 80 replies Author Time Post
Reply Electric Vehicle Owners Should Not Pay Fees (Original post)
erpowers Jun 21 OP
hlthe2b Jun 21 #1
msongs Jun 21 #2
Hugh_Lebowski Jun 21 #7
Happy Hoosier Jun 21 #34
msongs Jun 21 #36
JCMach1 Jun 22 #68
KentuckyStiffRipple Jun 22 #72
mitch96 Jun 21 #3
happybird Jun 21 #18
onenote Jun 21 #45
happybird Jun 21 #46
lagomorph777 Jun 21 #4
Casady1 Jun 21 #5
Captain Stern Jun 21 #6
Casady1 Jun 21 #10
Bev54 Jun 21 #8
TheBlackAdder Jun 21 #29
Bev54 Jun 21 #30
gratuitous Jun 21 #9
EX500rider Jun 21 #14
Throck Jun 21 #11
tinrobot Jun 21 #20
Throck Jun 21 #58
tinrobot Jun 22 #63
Throck Jun 22 #64
Rstrstx Jun 21 #31
Throck Jun 21 #57
PoindexterOglethorpe Jun 21 #12
JCMach1 Jun 22 #69
PoindexterOglethorpe Jun 22 #71
JCMach1 Jun 22 #79
KentuckyStiffRipple Jun 22 #74
Deminpenn Jun 21 #13
PSPS Jun 21 #15
DBoon Jun 21 #35
marie999 Jun 21 #50
DBoon Jun 21 #42
KentuckyStiffRipple Jun 22 #75
Caliman73 Jun 21 #16
doc03 Jun 21 #17
tinrobot Jun 21 #19
NCjack Jun 21 #21
Shermann Jun 21 #22
Qutzupalotl Jun 21 #23
Towlie Jun 21 #28
RegularJam Jun 21 #24
KentuckyStiffRipple Jun 22 #76
RegularJam Jun 22 #78
FSogol Jun 21 #25
DBoon Jun 21 #39
roamer65 Jun 21 #49
GulfCoast66 Jun 21 #59
Pobeka Jun 21 #26
MineralMan Jun 21 #27
DBoon Jun 21 #38
MineralMan Jun 21 #44
marble falls Jun 21 #32
DBoon Jun 21 #33
Deminpenn Jun 21 #51
Rstrstx Jun 22 #60
Deminpenn Jun 22 #65
mathematic Jun 22 #77
hunter Jun 21 #37
MissMillie Jun 21 #40
former9thward Jun 21 #41
flotsam Jun 21 #43
roamer65 Jun 21 #47
rockfordfile Jun 21 #55
roamer65 Jun 21 #56
USALiberal Jun 22 #67
Kaleva Jun 21 #48
maxsolomon Jun 21 #52
StarfishSaver Jun 22 #80
MichMan Jun 21 #53
rockfordfile Jun 21 #54
WarGamer Jun 22 #61
jmowreader Jun 22 #62
madville Jun 22 #66
JCMach1 Jun 22 #70
KentuckyStiffRipple Jun 22 #73

Response to erpowers (Original post)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 02:31 PM

1. Their impacts are covered by fees to recycle their batteries, fees to discard their used tires

their taxes that go to fund road construction/repair and taxes on electricity.

I agree that forcing them to pay some "gas tax" alternative is nuts. Then again when I first got my hybrid, no emissions sticker was required. Then R's in the statehouse forced them to change the law even though at the time a Denver Post reporter was able to show that no hybrid had ever failed an emissions test.

The way to controlled emissions is NOT to penalize those working to do so.

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Response to erpowers (Original post)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 02:31 PM

2. if u want to use the services u help contribute to the upkeep nt

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Response to msongs (Reply #2)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 02:43 PM

7. I agree and think a nominal gas-tax replacement for road upkeep is fair

The issue is that, while it's true electric vehicles have all these 'societal/planetary benefits', none of that translates to monies in the highway fund, and the roads do need built/maintained.

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Response to msongs (Reply #2)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 04:35 PM

34. Use taxes like these are regressive

And in this case we want ti encourage the use of electric vehicles. Electric cars are already more expensive. Adding use taxes would slow the transition. We should be pating for transportation from the general fund, IMO.

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Response to Happy Hoosier (Reply #34)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 04:38 PM

36. no doubt e-car users want to use the roads free at somebody else' expense nt

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Response to msongs (Reply #2)

Tue Jun 22, 2021, 10:17 AM

68. Then how about we charge the people who use it the most

Corporate shipping in a meaningful way


Gas taxes have never come anywhere close to paying for infrastructure.

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Response to msongs (Reply #2)

Tue Jun 22, 2021, 01:40 PM

72. EV owners are making their contribution against climate change

If you can't do the same, maybe you'll need to leave the Earth?

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Response to erpowers (Original post)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 02:33 PM

3. I saw a blerb on the tv machine on how Oregon is toying with the idea of a gizmo that

records your milage on your electric vehicle and charges you accordingly.. The other one was when you register your EV you pay a extra "fee" to balance things out... Both are more expensive than the gas tax. So you get a EV rebate and then get whacked anyway.
Kinda sucks.. ymmv
m

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Response to mitch96 (Reply #3)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 03:00 PM

18. I got charged extra on registration just because my car gets good gas mileage

Wouldnít have noticed if I wasnít registering two cars at the same appointment- a 1998 and a 2019. I asked the DMV worker why registration cost more for the 2019 (around $30 or $40 more), and she told me the reason. Both are gas vehicles.

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Response to happybird (Reply #18)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 05:03 PM

45. What state are you in?

Iím very surprised that someone would tell you your registration fees varied based on MPG (and that better mileage translates into higher fees. How registration fees are determined varies from state to state. Some base it on vehicle weight (higher weight =higher fee). Some base it on the carís value (older cars= Lower fee). Iíve never heard of a state that sets the fee based on Mikeís per gallon.

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Response to onenote (Reply #45)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 05:08 PM

46. Virginia

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Response to erpowers (Original post)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 02:34 PM

4. It is a question worthy of debate.

I can't afford an electric vehicle yet, but I plan to go electric when I can.

My car will wear out the road, same as any other car of similar weight.

I don't think I should escape that responsibility.

I think EVs will soon become the norm, simply for practical reasons; the government won't have to pay us to adopt them.

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Response to erpowers (Original post)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 02:43 PM

5. New York state

registration was based on weight. The more you weighed the more you paid. Weight has a direct impact on the roads.

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Response to erpowers (Original post)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 02:43 PM

6. I disagree.

I currently don't have an electric vehicle, but I plan on getting one (hopefully) shortly.

My electric car is going to put almost as much wear and tear on the roads as my current one.

All 'fees' (costs) folks pay don't go into one big pot of money that gets spread around as needed.

When I buy gas now, some of that money (gas tax) goes towards maintenance of our travel infrastructure...a bigger portion goes to the oil companies. When I have an electric car, the extra I pay for electricity will all go to the electric companies...none for our travel infrastructure. (I'd essentially be getting a free ride on our roads)

I'd say that we should consider getting rid of gasoline taxes all together, and tax vehicle owners based on the weight of the vehicle driven, and the amount of miles driven per year. I think 100 per cent of that tax should go towards infrastructure maintenance.

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Response to Captain Stern (Reply #6)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 02:45 PM

10. New York state

registration was based on weight. I don't know if it still is.

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Response to erpowers (Original post)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 02:43 PM

8. That is why nobody should be promoting a gas tax

when it is a dying industry. But then republicans are not really that smart.

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Response to Bev54 (Reply #8)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 04:04 PM

29. In NJ, gas taxes are for roads, but governors redirect to the General Fund to balance budgets.

.

Pretty much, most of the taxes, fees and penalties residents pay can be sent to the General Fund to balance the budget. Christie Whitman was the real abuser of this technique, as well as floating bonds to Rob Peter to Pay Paul, and made it a standard operating procedure for subsequent governors.

.

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Response to TheBlackAdder (Reply #29)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 04:16 PM

30. Yes in Canada we have a number of cities that have gas taxes

that have been there for several years. They are going to have to think about their revenue streams soon, but any government that is recommending a new gas tax to cover costs several years out, is not thinking things through very well.

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Response to erpowers (Original post)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 02:43 PM

9. Seeing as there are no "electric vehicles prohibited" roads in the U.S.

I think paying something to keep roads up is fair for electric vehicles. Base it on miles driven? Gasoline that otherwise has not been purchased? Let's map that out a little bit. Let's assume a paltry 25 mpg that many gas-powered vehicles don't even quite meet (which is another rant for another day). Let's further assume 10,000 miles driven annually, which means consuming 400 gallons of gasoline annually. The federal gas tax is a paltry $0.18 per gallon (and should be higher, but again, another rant for another day). That's $72 in missing taxes annually because you're driving an electric instead of a gasoline-powered vehicle. But there's also lower emissions from the vehicle (though that's partially offset by the carbon cost of the electricity the vehicle runs on), so let's trim the obligation down to $5 a month, or $60 per year.

Doesn't sound so onerous, does it?

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Response to gratuitous (Reply #9)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 02:52 PM

14. Also State taxes on gas that go to the State's DOT

In Florida state gas taxes and fees amount to 42.3 cents per gallon + the $.184 Fed tax

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Response to erpowers (Original post)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 02:49 PM

11. Who owns the charging stations?

If charging stations are on public property a modest fee should be charged to accommodate construction and maintainance.

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Response to Throck (Reply #11)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 03:12 PM

20. Many public charging stations are used by those without garages/carports

Such as people who live in apartments without access to private charging, or those who must park on the street.

Are we going to tax them for their 'fuel' while those who can afford a garage get no taxes? Unfair.

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Response to tinrobot (Reply #20)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 11:00 PM

58. Fuel is a commodity.

Paying for the commodity allows investment in more charging stations. There's also upkeep on the charging station.

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Response to Throck (Reply #58)

Tue Jun 22, 2021, 05:31 AM

63. Yes, but your solution is not taxing the fuel equally.

We're taxing only some locations where that fuel is purchased (i.e. public charging stations.)

Private stations (i.e. home garages) do not get taxed.

Perhaps there is another way to tax electricity for EVs that is more egalitarian.

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Response to tinrobot (Reply #63)

Tue Jun 22, 2021, 08:35 AM

64. With a smart electric meter it would not be a problem.

On the flip side the EV owners I know paid to have the charging stations put in their garages. They pay regular tax on the house electric.

Public charging stations generally allow for a faster charging rate which require a bigger service.

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Response to Throck (Reply #11)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 04:21 PM

31. Most are private, some are put in as "good will" to promote the use of EVs

Some charge and some donít. When I worked at the university they would charge $1/hour to use their chargers in the parking garage, which added about 40-50 miles per hour to the car if I recall correctly. A lot of businesses will charge very little to nothing to use a charger in their parking lot as an incentive to shop at their store.

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Response to Rstrstx (Reply #31)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 10:56 PM

57. At the local university users pay with a credit card.

They swipe the card and walk away all plugged in. They are charged for the kwh put into their vehicles.

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Response to erpowers (Original post)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 02:49 PM

12. Because EVs don't put any wear and tear on the roads, I gather?

No, they should pay some reasonable fees for their road usage.

It's bad enough that people bought grotesquely expensive EVs because they got some enormous tax break, which I thought was completely wrong. And now they don't want to pay for their share of road usage?

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Response to PoindexterOglethorpe (Reply #12)

Tue Jun 22, 2021, 10:18 AM

69. Clears throat: then charge commercial vehicles for the inordinate wear

They do...

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Response to JCMach1 (Reply #69)

Tue Jun 22, 2021, 11:24 AM

71. Don't those vehicles typically use far more gas than

a car? So aren't they already paying their fair share in gasoline taxes?

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Response to PoindexterOglethorpe (Reply #71)

Tue Jun 22, 2021, 05:28 PM

79. The weight and size damage the infrastructure...

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Response to PoindexterOglethorpe (Reply #12)

Tue Jun 22, 2021, 01:48 PM

74. No, they put much less wear and tear on our atmosphere.

Sounds we need an air and heat tax on people who don't drive EVs.

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Response to erpowers (Original post)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 02:50 PM

13. Do electric vehicles not use roads and bridges?

Federal and state gas taxes help pay for the maintenance and repair of roads and bridges. Why should EVs be exempt from paying a fair share?

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Response to erpowers (Original post)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 02:53 PM

15. "I want to benefit from the infrastructure, but not pay for it" is a rather republican idea.

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Response to PSPS (Reply #15)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 04:35 PM

35. Do public schools charge parents tuition?

No, because an educated population is a general benefit. We all pay out of our taxes for public education, even those who do not have children.

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Response to DBoon (Reply #35)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 05:22 PM

50. In Onslow County NC we do pay a small tuition fee for public schools.

When I went to school in Boston, I graduated in 1961, the only thing my parents had to pay for was book covers, slide rule, and gym clothes. Everything else including school lunches was paid for by property taxes. Now we even pay for pens, pencils, composition books, and other things. The amount they have us buy is to help out the poorer families which is fine with us. I know teachers who spend hundreds of dollars making sure their students have everything they need.

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Response to PSPS (Reply #15)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 04:55 PM

42. So are gasoline vehichles properly charged for their role in climate change?

People here are very worried that electric vehicles might use roads that they haven't paid for.

So who is paying for this:

?w=859

We are facing a global catastrophe and people on a "democratic" board are worried about road fees and want to tax electric vehicles because "its not fair" they don't use gas taxes?

The western US is burning up and you folks are worried about road fees?

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Response to PSPS (Reply #15)

Tue Jun 22, 2021, 01:49 PM

75. You want to benefit from the climate contributions of EV owners

but don't want them to receive the natural financial advantages of not burning gasoline.

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Response to erpowers (Original post)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 02:59 PM

16. The gas tax is the only current mode of paying for upkeep of roads.

I think that this is some of the concern with the switch from gasoline to electric or other sustainable fuel vehicles. As long as we can get some kind of scheme for continued shared costs for the upkeep of roads, I would not have any problems with the gas tax or other fees specifically to pay for that.

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Response to erpowers (Original post)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 03:00 PM

17. I bought a 2020 Honda CRV last year. I was considering the hybrid version but it didn't appear

Last edited Mon Jun 21, 2021, 03:57 PM - Edit history (1)

financially feasible to me. The Honda CRV EX-L I got is now priced at $30450. The Honda CRV EX-L Hybrid is priced at
$33150. The gas model gets a combined millage of 29MPG at 12000 miles per year that gives me an annual
fuel cost of $1237. The Hybrid model gets a combined millage of 38 MPG at 12000 miles per year I would spend
$944 a year for gas. First off the hybrid cost $2700 more. With todays gas price of $2.99 in 5 years I would use $6186 in
gas on the gas model and $4721 for the Hybrid. I would save $1735 in fuel costs. But I would have to pay a $500
additional registration fee over 5 years.


2700-1465+500=$1735 more over 5 years.

On the other hand I could buy a Honda Civic that gets a combined millage of 36 MPG and not have to pay the $500 fee.


Another thing to consider in the Hybrid fuel cost is
over time the batteries will eventually need replaced at a cost of about $3000 or more I have heard.

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Response to erpowers (Original post)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 03:08 PM

19. I'm an EV owner and happy to pay a bit more.

The electricity I use at home goes to the power company, not the department of transportation. Thanks to the battery, my car is also a half ton heavier than the equivalent gas vehicle, so I wear out the roads faster.

So, I'm certainly happy to pay my fair share.

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Response to erpowers (Original post)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 03:13 PM

21. No fuel tax for any type of vehicle. Collect tolls for various types.

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Response to erpowers (Original post)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 03:27 PM

22. The US is still behind the curve on EV adoption

There should be a moratorium on EV taxes and fees until we catch up the the rest of the civilized world.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/06/07/todays-electric-vehicle-market-slow-growth-in-u-s-faster-in-china-europe/

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Response to erpowers (Original post)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 03:44 PM

23. I discussed this with my rep and suggested a tire tax

since everyone who drives uses tires. We could phase out the gas tax and phase in a tire tax. Heavy trucks with more tires would pay a larger share. He thought it was an interesting idea.

The downside is that if such a tax is very large, people might postpone replacing tires, leading to safety hazards.

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Response to Qutzupalotl (Reply #23)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 04:02 PM

28. That's a good idea, at least until some new super-durable tire is invented.




Then owners of those super-tires will be the ones accused of being tax dodgers. (Also, as you say, people will run their tire treads down to dangerous levels to save money on their road-use tax.)

Road-use tax is tied to gasoline tax purely because of the convenient correlation, and if technology breaks that correlation then that doesn't justify accusing electric car drivers of dodging the tax. Instead, the government needs to revise their way of assessing road-use tax. Perhaps it should be a more direct system of simply taxing drivers according to their vehicle's odometer readings.

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Response to erpowers (Original post)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 03:49 PM

24. Very strong conservative argument you are making.

 

I disagree and even find one part of it to be totally contradictory.

"Second, even though there is debate about the environmental impact of the manufacture of the batteries used in electric vehicles, it can be argued that the benefit to the environment gained from electric vehicles outweighs the fact that owners of electric vehicles do not pay gas taxes."

Leaving the conservative mindset behind, saying it's better for the environment in one way, so we don't have to care about the environment in another way, is very convoluted and stands in direct conflict of why we need this change.

" I realize that the main purpose of the gas tax is to pay for the upkeep of roads and bridges and not solely to protect the environment; however, the benefit of electric vehicle ownership might still outweigh the need to regain lost money from a lack a gas taxes paid."

Excusing one, at the behest of the other, is a fools game.

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Response to RegularJam (Reply #24)

Tue Jun 22, 2021, 01:51 PM

76. No, you're on the right wing, anti-environment side.

Don't fool yourself.

Liberal public policy is to financially incentivize and support alternative energies and transportation. You're against that. You're on McConnell's side.

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Response to KentuckyStiffRipple (Reply #76)

Tue Jun 22, 2021, 02:14 PM

78. That's funny.

 

As long as you are joking. If you aren't joking, it's.......

No, harming the environment in order to help the environment isn't some kind of progressive flavor.

The message being promoted in the op is conservatism. Your argument didn't negate that thought, at all.

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Response to erpowers (Original post)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 03:53 PM

25. How do we pay for roads, bridges, tunnels, etc?

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Response to FSogol (Reply #25)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 04:42 PM

39. How do we pay for public schools?

Do we charge parents a fee for each child to cover operating costs?

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Response to DBoon (Reply #39)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 05:13 PM

49. We should.

Why should childless people have to bear a disproportionate amount of school funding?

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Response to roamer65 (Reply #49)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 11:13 PM

59. Because as liberals we believe that everyone has a role in funding a better society.

We have no kid and will not. But are happy to pay for schools.

The idea that we only pay for our cost strikes me as anti-liberal.

Do you have employer based health insurance? If so are you opposed to any higher taxes to have universal healthcare? Because to have it we will all have to pay more in taxes.

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Response to erpowers (Original post)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 03:57 PM

26. How about a carbon tax approach?

I looked at a comparison of CO2 output between a plugin-hybrid vs straight hybrid:

Assuming I drive 10,000 miles a year
If I have a gas only vehicle that gets 40 mpg it generates 5000 lbs of CO2
If I have a plug-in hybrid that gets 49 mpg in hybrid mode, and half of all miles are within the battry range, it generates 2041 lbs of CO2

Since our power is hydro-electric this is a fair comparison. If it was coal powered electricity it would of course be less favorable for the plug-in.

We decided to get the plug-in hybrid to save generating 3000 lbs of CO2 a year, even though it was about $4000 more for the plug-in hybrid model.

Just brainstorming here -- so the "road tax" for our hybrid would be about %40 of the "road tax" for the equivalent gas only vehicle.

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Response to erpowers (Original post)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 03:59 PM

27. Well, now...that's a Libertarian point of view if I ever heard one.

No. EVs use the roads. They need to pay for the roads, too. ICE vehicles pay taxes on fuel. EVs have to pay their share as well.

EVs are nice. They save energy, but that has nothing to do with the cost of maintaining public roads.

There is no free ride.

You may feel good about owning an EV. That's fine, but you still have to pay to use public roads.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #27)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 04:41 PM

38. When you call 911 are your charged a fee for your use of that service?

Having government functions self supported by user fees is the libertarian argument. Once you have fees paying for government functions, you have effectively privatized those functions, and eliminated the role of government in advancing the common good.


Electric vehicles are an effective method for reducing fossil fuel use. Climate change has already passed a critical point. We should not be taxing EVs, we should be subsidizing their use to eliminate our dependency on gasoline.

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Response to DBoon (Reply #38)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 05:01 PM

44. Property taxes pay for police and fire.

Even if you rent, you are paying those. If I don't need the police or fire department, my neighbors will.

It's not all about me. It is about the society as a whole.

Think about it, please.

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Response to erpowers (Original post)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 04:26 PM

32. As soon as electric cars fly, they can skip road taxes. What if I brew my own gasoline: do I owe ...

... road taxes? Paying for electric to charge the car is no equivalent to buying gas in terms of the cost to keep up roadways. I suppose after we all go electric, no one will have to pay for road upkeep.

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Response to erpowers (Original post)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 04:32 PM

33. The damage done to the environment by fossil fuesl is reason enough to not tax electric vehicles.

The argument that usage fees should pay for government services is a flawed and highly illiberal view of government. Government provide services for the common good. Government is not a vending machine where you insert funds and out pops road maintenance instead of a bag of chips.

"Fee for service" is how libertarians view government. Progressives should view government as a mechanism to achieve the public good. Technologies which reduce fossil fuel use should be strongly encouraged.

Do we charge fees for k12 public education? No because education is a public benefit, even to those who have no children.

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Response to DBoon (Reply #33)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 07:00 PM

51. Electricity is increasingly produced by burning natural gas, a fossil fuel,

instead of coal, also a fossil fuel. Natural gas may burn cleaner, but it's still a non-renewable resource.

Electricity transmission is also inefficient given it's sent over uninsulated wires.

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Response to Deminpenn (Reply #51)

Tue Jun 22, 2021, 12:48 AM

60. I thought renewable energy was on the rise

If not we should be implementing policies that increase its use.

EVs are carbon neutral once theyíve been manufactured, so how clean or dirty they are depends on where you get your energy from.

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Response to Rstrstx (Reply #60)

Tue Jun 22, 2021, 09:16 AM

65. It is, but fossil fuel generated electricity is still a big majority

I agree with your second statement about the EV owners primary source of electricity to power their EV.

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Response to DBoon (Reply #33)

Tue Jun 22, 2021, 02:02 PM

77. You're opposed to EV taxes but you're arguing for taxing EV owners more. It's confusing.

OK, let's say the roads come out of the general budget entirely and there is no gas tax, since you call that fee for service and illiberal.

The money to make up the loss of gas tax will be borne by gas vehicle owners, electric vehicle owners, and even people that do not own any vehicle. Gas vehicle owners, in aggregate, will pay less tax than they do currently.

Your go-to example is public schools. We all pay property tax directly or indirectly, whether we have children that go to public school or go to private school or no children at all. Similarly, we will all pay road taxes whether we have gas vehicles or electric vehicles or no vehicles.

The part that doesn't make sense to me is that you seem very opposed to taxing electric vehicle owners. Did I misunderstand that? If I didn't, then how does your argument make any sense with your position?

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Response to erpowers (Original post)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 04:40 PM

37. Most of us should be living in pleasant urban environments where owning a car is unnecessary.

I don't hate electric cars, but I believe they are just another brick in our world's high energy industrial consumer economy.

I'm not sure this planet can support 8 billion car owners.


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Response to erpowers (Original post)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 04:47 PM

40. Well, in our state we have an "excise tax"

on all motor vehicles, and on all things that are pulled in tow (campers, trailers, etc).

That's ON TOP of a gas tax.

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Response to erpowers (Original post)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 04:51 PM

41. EVs are already heavily subsidized by the taxpayers.

They get federal and state tax breaks which lowers the cost of the vehicle. Now they want to get out of paying even a dime for the roads? No way.

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Response to erpowers (Original post)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 04:56 PM

43. Here it 'tis

Fed gasoline tax is 13,8 per gallon. Electric car mph runs about 50mpg or .276 cents per mile-so if you drove your electric vehicle 20 K per year your fee would be $55.20. Of course most drivers among us old folks would be less than 10K so less than $30 per year. I'm betting most could live with that...

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Response to erpowers (Original post)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 05:10 PM

47. Toll roads.

Start charging everyone toll and get rid of the gas tax.

If you use, you pay. No discrimination based on means of propulsion.

Itís incredibly easy with devices like EZPASS and IPASS now.

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Response to roamer65 (Reply #47)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 08:39 PM

55. No.

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Response to rockfordfile (Reply #55)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 09:51 PM

56. Yes.

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Response to roamer65 (Reply #47)

Tue Jun 22, 2021, 09:34 AM

67. Lol, funny! Nt

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Response to erpowers (Original post)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 05:12 PM

48. every person benefits from the highway system so the tax should be universal.

almost all who don't have a car would soon die without the highways as would those who have a vehicle.

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Response to erpowers (Original post)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 07:11 PM

52. Electric and hybrid vehicles impact roads same as any other vehicle.

Gas Taxes are one of the ways that we pay for road maintenance. Trucks pay additional fees for their impacts.

If Electric and hybrid vehicles use roads, they should contribute to their maintenance.

Electric Bills are not paid to the same entities that collect gas taxes. In many cases, they are paid to private corporations.

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Response to maxsolomon (Reply #52)

Tue Jun 22, 2021, 05:39 PM

80. And we all benefit from roads and bridges, even if we never use them

Unless we have our private roads and bridges that allow goods, services, police, fire and ambulances to get to us, that is ...

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Response to erpowers (Original post)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 08:23 PM

53. People love higher taxes as long as someone else is the one paying them

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Response to erpowers (Original post)

Mon Jun 21, 2021, 08:31 PM

54. I agree for now. The only people that push electric car fee are fossil fuel supporters.

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Response to erpowers (Original post)

Tue Jun 22, 2021, 01:04 AM

61. In MANY states, EV pay a special registration fee.

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Response to erpowers (Original post)

Tue Jun 22, 2021, 03:23 AM

62. The road tax on EVs should arguably be higher...

...because the cars weigh more than gas cars, and it's weight that messes up the roads.

A Model 3 Tesla weighs about 4000 pounds, which is half a ton more than the similarly sized VW Jetta.

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Response to erpowers (Original post)

Tue Jun 22, 2021, 09:32 AM

66. We all know the eventual solution - Mileage tax based on vehicle weight

The technology exists now to track and log all miles driven in a vehicle. I believe Oregon is exploring it now but eventually most states are going to live to this model, tax vehicles by the mile at a rate based on their weight. Itís the fair way to collect road taxes, everyone has skin in the game then.

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Response to erpowers (Original post)

Tue Jun 22, 2021, 10:21 AM

70. We keep the fees off with Federal law until it reaches a tipping point

Of 50% plus for some years.

Similar to what was done with internet commerce and sales taxes. Give people space to adopt and adapt.

Or even better, raise gas taxes to make up the difference and encourage people to adopt electric.

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Response to erpowers (Original post)

Tue Jun 22, 2021, 01:43 PM

73. We're encouraging EV ownership through rebates and tax credits

as a matter of public policy, but then we argue with the natural, obvious financial advantages of EV's? How fucking stupid can we get?

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