What If We Bulldozed Tel Aviv And Built An American Settlement There?

[DanieRains]

Give the inhabitants one hour to evacuate, and then do what they do to the Palestinians.

Build a settlement.

Say the land belongs to us.

We defeated the Nazis. The land surely belongs to us as much as anyone right?

Ok, ok. The Russians helped too. I never said America did it alone.

Let the Russians bulldoze a city and build a Russian settlement there.

I know this post will be flagged because of simply horrible people that support Palestinian murder, but I said it, and I meant it.

Just trying to put things into perspective.

If there were not settlements, there would be no Hamas firing missiles.

Period.

[Ziggysmom]

1. Hamas is a terrorist organization that denies the Holocaust ever happened.

They do not recognize Israel’s right to exist. Even if there were no settlements, Hamas would continue its path of violence. It’s sad that innocent people suffer because fools chose to hate.

[question everything]

3. And knew perfectly well that sending rockets to the heart of Israel will generate

a massive response. But, hey, what are lives and livelihoods of people compare to political points?

[WHITT]

11. Backwards Revisionism

Rockets were launched as a COUNTER-ATTACK response.

[ripcord]

30. Hamas launched the first strike

That is why the world is condemning the Palestinians including other Arab nations.

[WHITT]

43. False

The fascist Likud ordered commandos to storm into the Al-Aqsa complex, one of the world's holiest structures located in Jerusalem's Old City, during a prayer service. They threw stun grenades and fired rounds at unarmed civilian Palestinians simply engaged in prayer. This was a blatant attempt to intentionally instigate a response in order to disrupt the forming of an alternative Israeli government, so the fascist Likud could ruthlessly retain power, not to mention it was an obvious War Crime.

[EX500rider]

54. You mean after the Israeli police came under fire from a storm of rocks and bottles?

Later on after Friday prayers - the last of Ramadan - major clashes erupt at the al-Aqsa mosque compound, injuring more than 200 people. Israel's police force says it used “riot dispersal means”, firing rubber bullets and stun grenades after officers came under a hail of stones and bottles.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-57180718

I'll trust the BBC version over yours.

[WHITT]

58. No, That Was OUTSIDE

The commandos (NOT police) ENTERED INTO THE INSIDE of the Al-Aqsa complex, one of the world's holiest structures located in Jerusalem's Old City, during a prayer service. They threw stun grenades and fired rounds at unarmed civilian Palestinians simply engaged in prayer.

Clearly a War Crime.

[EX500rider]

61. "Clearly a War Crime."

You really don't have a firm grasp on what is a war crime.
Police actions against riots in progress are not one of them.

Firing rockets across borders aimed at civilian in cities however is one.

[WHITT]

66. You're Still Confused

1) It wasn't the police.

2) Fighting back against Illegal Military Occupation is perfectly legal.

3) You cannot aim unguided rockets at civilians.

[EX500rider]

72. Someone is certainly confused

1. I'll take the BBC's version over yours
2. Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005
3. You can certainly aim rockets by adjusting elevation and compass heading and aiming them at cities is certainly targeting civilians regardless of your incorrect opinion on the matter.

[EX500rider]

82. I notice you are never able to present any links to any proof for anything you assert.

Funny that.

[Cary]

35. Tell me why you're pro Hamas

Are they a poor,.misunderstood,.misrepresented, peace-loving lot?

[WHITT]

45. I'm Not

You shouldn't make unsubstantiated allegations just because you don't comprehend international law.

[WHITT]

10. Sorry

by international treaty, which the U.S. is signatory to, fighting back against Illegal Military Occupation is specifically NOT "terrorism".

[Darwins_Retriever]

17. How is it illegal military occupation

1967 - Jordan, Egypt, Syria, and Palestinians attack Israel. Israel defeats the aggressors and assumes occupation of territory belonging to Jordan, Syria, and Egypt. Notice, non of the land occupied was controlled by the Palestinians. So if Israel would return the occupied territories to the rightful owners, Palestine still would not exist. So how is this an "illegal military occupation"?

[WHITT]

20. Eh

by definition, by UN Resolution, by international law, by international treaty.

Read much?

[Darwins_Retriever]

26. What do they say?

UN resolutions do not have any enforcement behind them. The UN wanted to study poverty in the US. The US told them to get bent.

Now I think the UN does have a roll. Jerusalem should be an international city. Move the UN HQ and all agency HQs there. UN peace keeping troops could be stationed there. All the members would have consulates there. WHO and World Bank should be there.

[WHITT]

46. Non Sequitur

[ripcord]

33. By your logic the Palestinians have been violating a UN mandate since 1947

The UN mandate established Israel in 1947, the Palestinians along with Arab nations have launched several wars to exterminate the Jews in the Middle East, why should Israel feel compelled to follow the rules Palestine has been violating for 70 years?

[WHITT]

47. Very Twisted "Logic" Ya Got There

[cabot]

97. Exactly

Great point. If Israel hadn't been attacked in 1967 and things stayed static to date, there still wouldn't be a Palestine.

[sarisataka]

28. So if not terrorism

What does international treaty call it when you fight back against Illegal Military Occupation by indiscriminately firing at your opponents civilian population?

[WHITT]

48. How Does One Aim

unguided rockets directly at civilians?

[sarisataka]

49. Any high school physics student

Can do a ballistic calculation to determine where a rocket should land. If you haven't had high school physics i am will to be there is an app that would calculate it for you. If the CEP circle is entirely, or even mostly, within a city it is aimed at civilians.

So again, What does international treaty call it when you indiscriminately fire at your opponents civilian population?

[WHITT]

51. You're Twisting Yourself Into Knots

If the rockets are "indiscriminately" fired, as you posted, then no "ballistic calculation" is gonna help.

Bad try, no cigar.

[sarisataka]

52. Why will you not answer my question

Is there something about it that makes you uncomfortable?

ETA- for your education, indiscriminately means

not marked by careful distinction : deficient in discrimination and discernment.

Seems to apply to firing an unguided rocket at a city

[WHITT]

53. I'm Afraid You're Confused

Unguided rockets are not mortar shells, that you can launch with a simple mortar tube, and if you're 25ft short, click click, next one is 5ft short, click, then they land pretty much the same place all day long.

Unguided rockets are "unguided" DURING FLIGHT. So you can do all the calculations you want, they won't land there. Not to mention they are subject to other external forces, but that's a moot discussion.

Your ridiculous assertions are not getting you anywhere.

BTW, if you wanted to supply the Palestinians with some jet fighter/bombers and some guided missile batteries, I'm certain they would target those at the military installations of those that have them under Illegal Military Occupation.

[Mosby]

59. The Israel presence in the WB is perfectly legal

You have heard of the Oslo accords? Interim Agreement?

The Palestinian leadership signed off on the current arrangement, so your assertion is spurious.

[WHITT]

60. Bullshit

[Mosby]

65. The Oslo accords are bullshit?

That's all you got, lol.

[WHITT]

68. Too Bad For You That's Not What I Posted

[LanternWaste]

83. I'm betting you take the 1st place prize for number of assertions lacking evidence to support them.

As well as (at least place or show) for Goalpost Moving.

[EX500rider]

63. That poster thinks Gaza in under military occupation even though Israel pulled out in 2005

[IsItJustMe]

100. I think it's more like an open air prison.

Last edited Sat May 22, 2021, 12:27 AM - Edit history (1)

[EX500rider]

101. Don't they have a border with Eygpt?

Israel has no control over that border.

[sarisataka]

73. I think you are confused

Or are being deliberately obtuse.

The calculation that you use for a mortar is basically the same as you use for a rocket. Vertical velocity times horizontal velocity divided by gravity.

Some unguided projectiles, such as artillery, are well known and uniform so can be aimed quite accurately. Others, such as many rockets, have more variables so are not as precise by you can definitely aim them. You may not be able to hit a specific building but you certainly can hit a city.. The Germans did it quite well with the V-1 and V-2 weapons. Iraq did the same with the SCUDs.

So I ask a third time- What does international treaty call it when you indiscriminately fire at your opponents civilian population?

[RegularJam]

64. By aiming it at civilian populations.

Jumped the shark a bit with this one.

[malaise]

16. There's an ongoing holocaust

Pause and look

[hack89]

29. Really?

A deliberate genocide that has significantly reduced the numbers of Palestinians? Millions of deaths per year? Really?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

32. I tire of saying this but I will preface my remarks

I tire of saying this but I will preface my remarks by saying both sides have compelling narratives, albeit diametrically opposed ones. That's what makes the problem so intractable. A two-state solution where both peoples can lead lives of dignity should remain the paramount goal, no matter how elusive it is.

The last thing this situation needs is hyperbole.

[ripcord]

31. That is what the Arab nations attempted against Israel

Not long after the Holocaust in Germany Arabs tried to exterminate the Jews in Israel repeatedly, luckily they were incompetent.

[Celerity]

21. The RW Israeli government has terrorist components operating under the cover of state sovereignty

The majority of the niche, radical RW ultra-Zionist parties that help make up the RW ruling coalition have the eradication of the Palestinians as a goal as well.

For instance, one of the chief RW ultra-Zionist instigators of violence in the streets against the Palestinians is Itamar Ben-Gvir & his party Otzma Yehudit. They are Kahanist in nature, ultra RW violent fascist radicals.

Kahanism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kahanism

Kahanism is an extremist Jewish ideology based on the views of Rabbi Meir Kahane, founder of the Jewish Defence League and the Kach party in Israel. Kahane maintained the view that the majority of Arabs living in Israel are enemies of Jews and Israel itself, and believed that a Jewish theocratic state, where non-Jews have no voting rights, should be created. The Kach party has been banned by the Israeli government and the U.S. State Department has labelled it a Foreign Terrorist Organization.

https://www.jpost.com/Israel-Elections/Netanyahus-deflection-of-his-involvement-with-Otzma-ANALYSIS-581666

[Aristus]

22. Well, right now, so is the Israeli government.

n/t

[Celerity]

38. +1

[Politicub]

70. Hamas isn't some magic word you get to use to paper over punishment and killing of innocent

Last edited Thu May 20, 2021, 05:40 PM - Edit history (1)

Palestinian people.

It is false to portray Hamas as synonymous with the Palestinian people. It's dangerous, too, since invoking Hamas is often used to redirect discussion away from the unjust system imposed on non-Israeli citizens in the occupied territories in Golan Heights.

On edit: I meant Israeli-occupied Golan Heights — not Gaza.

[EX500rider]

75. Gaza is not occupied, Israel pulled out in 2005. nt

[joetheman]

80. But Gaza is blockaded for all intents and purposes. nt

[EX500rider]

81. Gaza shares a border with Egypt not under Israeli control.

The Egyptians frequently close it due to terrorists and weapons smuggling into the Sanai.

Which has nothing to do with Israel and everything to do with Hamas being a terrorist group.
If they were better neighbors the border would be open all the time.

[Marrah_Goodman]

88. It is a god damned reservation.

[EX500rider]

90. Is anyone surprised that Israel fortifies that border? Not fond of bombs going off in their country

Gaza could have a open border with Egypt if they were better neighbors but Egypt does not like the terrorists and arms crossing the border into the Sanai and causing havoc.

[Marrah_Goodman]

91. They sure are fond of dropping bombs though

[EX500rider]

92. Yeah I suppose they should just let Hamas fire all the rockets

. they want across the border into Israel trying to kill civilians.. and just do nothing, that would go over big with the Israeli voters

[Marrah_Goodman]

93. Or they could try addressing some of their behavior

The more they put their foot on the necks of Palestinians, the more power they give to Hamas. Nothing can get better as long as the same thing continues.

[EX500rider]

95. Yes because some heavy-handed riot control at a mosque

... in Jerusalem definitely calls for firing 4,000 plus rockets across the border trying to kill civilians

[question everything]

2. who are the "we."

[Crunchy Frog]

4. People post far worse things than that in the I/P forum.

From the other side. Was just reading over there. Need a shower.

[Progressive Jones]

5. I/P forum? nt

[Crunchy Frog]

6. Israel/Palestine.

[Carlitos Brigante]

7. Oh you don't wanna know........ nt

[NoRethugFriends]

8. Nice balanced post. (nt)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

9. SIGH

[ShazzieB]

12. I don't knowif this post will be flagged or not, but I'm really glad I got to read it!

[DanieRains]

14. Thanks I Really Don't Like Bullies Or Apartheid

Or the powerful crushing the powerless simply because they can, and because we let them.

No more settlements / abuse no more missles.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. I want a two state solution where both Israelis and Palestinians

I want a two-state solution where both Israelis and Palestinians can live in peace and with dignity. What does Hamas want?

[cabot]

99. A two-state solution would be perfect

Unfortunately, Hamas will never recognize Israel's right to exist.

[TheRickles]

13. But only after we sent police units to patrol over worshippers at the Western Wall on Yom Kippur.

[Kaleva]

15. Go ahead. Tell us how it turns out.

It's a scientific fact that people put in a lot of time and effort when dealing with something they deem important. an example of this are those who post in the gardening group. They don't limit themselves to just posting. They are spending hours in their garden(s) working.

It's also a scientific fact that people do little in dealing with an issue they deem unimportant. They may find the issue to be of some interest but it's little more then coffee table talk.

Looking at Expedia, the cost of a roundtrip airline ticket From JFK airport to Tel Aviv is $622. How many Palestinians have to die before one thinks spending that amount is justified?

[Beastly Boy]

18. This is so childish.

If you can’t find at least ten things wrong with your analogy, you are just messing with yourself. Not anyone with a minimum capacity in critical thinking.

[Darwins_Retriever]

19. After WW2 who do you think governed Germany?

Germany was divided into 4 zones, each governed by the military of one of the major allies. And you don't think the USSR didn't bulldoze any cities or towns. They tried to starve W. Berlin.

"If there were not any settlements, there would be no Hamas firing missiles." Oh, come on. Likewise, if there were no settlements, there would be no suicide bombers, attacks on Isreali civilians in Israeli cities, no 1972 Olympic attack.

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

23. They could build another Disney World on the leveled land.

I'm sure that in addition to the usual sections -- Frontier Land, Fantasy Land, Tomorrow Land, etc., they'd be willing to add "Never-ending War Land." The battles would be fought with water balloons and paint guns.

[treestar]

25. That I'm not sure of

Before the settlements, the PLO was fighting.

It was predictable. Hindsight says Israel should have happened naturally, with immigration, instead of this formal proclamation. The British rarely do anything right.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

27. The Palestinian Liberation Organization was founded in 1964.

[Celerity]

40. 'The British rarely do anything right.'

[Cary]

34. Who is "we?"

You surely don't speak for me and thankfully you don't speak for a majority of Americans.

Given the rabid anti-Semitism on the right I don't understand why they haven't turned totally against Jews. Unfortunately there is.plenty.of anti-Semitism on the left which makes my life more difficult in a lot.of.ways.

If Israel was on our border, doing to us what Hamas does to Israel,.then your question might be fair. As it stands I find it highly offensive.

[RANDYWILDMAN]

39. You do the the Palestinians are Semitic people ?

[Mosby]

42. So what? Anyone can be a bigot.

[Elessar Zappa]

44. Anti-Semitic means anti-Jewish

and you know it. Don’t play stupid, people can see right through it.

[DanieRains]

56. I Am Not Anti Jewish I Am Anti Apartheid And Anti Injustice

And anti-settlement.

The Palestinians know exactly how our Native Americans feel / felt.

Bibi is a bloodthirsty prick, and would kill a million people to stay in power, and out of jail.

[Mosby]

62. Was Jesus Christ a colonialist settler?

What don't you understand about the 1000s years presence jews have in the WB?

Jews have been living in Israel, Judea, Samaria for 3500 years. It's our ancestral homeland.

Since before partition Israeli leaders have been willing to compromise, and give some of our lands to the Arabs. They have rejected every offer.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

77. I love the Jesus question

I agree with my liberal Jewish friends who believe that Jesus was a rabbi who wanted to start his own religion. The Last Supper was a Jewish seder or a traditional Jewish meal. All the Apostles were Jewish.

[Marrah_Goodman]

71. You are fighting a useless fight on this

There are some people here who think Israel can never ever do anything wrong and are entitled to take any land they want. They have no issues with putting people on reservations and demonizing them if they try to fight back.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

76. I don't think any of those people post here.

[Mosby]

78. Exactly.

When people can't support their positions with facts, they turn to personal attacks and strawman arguments.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

79. If

If "There are (some ) people here who think Israel can never ever do anything wrong and are entitled to take any land they want." i will alert on them after calling them out.


Nuance is your friend. This situation is painful enough without hyperbole.

[Marrah_Goodman]

84. Really I see post after post demonizing palestinians and defending everything Israel does

[DemocratSinceBirth]

85. You should alert on those posts

Both Israelis and Palestinians are entitled to live lives of dignity and respect in their own states.

Hamas is bad news. If you want I will elaborate.

[Marrah_Goodman]

87. I agree. I see both Hamas and the current Israeli government as bad actors

But I understand the plight of the oppressed palestinian people. They are expected to just take it and not fight back. They are expected to allow their land to be stolen and just accept it.

I suppose we all see things from our own life perspectives.

As for alerting. Nah, I've been around long enough to know that would do no good in this situation.

[RANDYWILDMAN]

36. Israel has long ago lost the high ground to defend it's actions

They blame hamas as they continue to mistreat the palestinians

[Takket]

37. If we did that...

The Israelies would probably be furious and attack and kill some of us. Then we would label them terrorists. Rinse and repeat until we own it all.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

50. "If there were not settlements, there would be no Hamas firing missiles. Period. "

Are you sure:

Hamas Covenant 1988
The Covenant
of the
Islamic Resistance Movement

Article 7


The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the links in the chain of the struggle against the Zionist invaders. It goes back to 1939, to the emergence of the martyr Izz al-Din al Kissam and his brethren the fighters, members of Moslem Brotherhood. It goes on to reach out and become one with another chain that includes the struggle of the Palestinians and Moslem Brotherhood in the 1948 war and the Jihad operations of the Moslem Brotherhood in 1968 and after.

Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

I oppose bigotry wherever it raises its ugly head, regardless of the target and regardless of the source. I oppose nationalism whether it be American, Russian, Jewish, Chinese, or Islamic, et cetera. We are all children of an awesome God. True peace will come when both sides of this conflict live in their own states securely and with dignity.

[DanieRains]

55. But One Side Keeps Bulldozing Houses

And is 100 times more powerful.

Kinda hard to find peace when they want all your land, and will kill you if you get in their way right?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

57. Kinda hard when side wants to literally kill you because you practice a certain religion

Kinda hard when one side wants to literally kill you because you practice a certain religion and believe the entire land we know as Israel, even behind the Green Line borders should be an Islamic Waqf.



Article Eleven:
The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Moslem generations till Judgement Day?

This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Moslems have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Moslems consecrated these lands to Moslem generations till the Day of Judgement.


Article 7

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp


I oppose bigotry wherever it raises its ugly head, regardless of the target and regardless of the source. (REDUX) and want Jews and Muslims to feel safe in their own states.

As to the settlements and Netanyahu it's a given that I vociferously oppose them and him. Opposing Netanyahu's irredentist policies and Hamas's irredentist policies are not mutually exclusive.

[Marrah_Goodman]

69. Israel is doing to the Palestinians what we did to the Native Americans

Take their lands, call them monsters if they resist or fight back.

[GoodRaisin]

96. Exactly, with a big assist from US.

[48656c6c6f20]

74. Bulldoze and just stop there

Don't need the headache of living and governing in a bat shit crazy region. Hell get a brigade of bulldozers and start west to east on the whole damn region.

[Marrah_Goodman]

89. Honestly, wtf is wrong with you?

[electric_blue68]

86. Or if the settlements had stayed at a MUCH lower level, and ....

... The Palestinians treated waaaay better.

These two things would make things much better, imo.

[Ilsa]

94. Why is this in General Discussion? Isn't

there a forum for this?

[treestar]

102. When there is current news

on the subject, it is allowed in GD.

[Ilsa]

103. The OP just seemed like bait, not "news." nt

[FakeNoose]

98. Disney can build two Epcot-style Jerusalems - one each for the Israelis and the Palestinians

It would all be fake of course, but neither would care.

They can each have their own version that excludes the other one. Israeli Jerusalem would have no Palestinians, and same for Palestinian version - no Israelis. They can each have their sacred buildings and attractions, restaurants, rides, parades and fireworks every night. There's lots of room to build it too, just make the Jordanians move over a little.