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Mon May 3, 2021, 11:06 AM

Millions Are Saying No to the Vaccines. What Are They Thinking?



Tweet text:
Derek Thompson
@DKThomp
Tens of millions of Americans—including 60 percent of young Republicans—say they'll refuse the COVID vaccine.

I spoke to 11 of them. I asked them where their views came from and what might change their minds.

Here's what they told me:

Millions Are Saying No to the Vaccines. What Are They Thinking?
I asked several people why they were refusing to get vaccinated. Here’s what they told me—and how we might be able to change their mind.
theatlantic.com
5:50 AM · May 3, 2021


https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/05/the-people-who-wont-get-the-vaccine/618765/

Several days ago, the mega-popular podcast host Joe Rogan advised his young listeners to skip the COVID-19 vaccine. “I think you should get vaccinated if you’re vulnerable,” Rogan said. “But if you’re 21 years old, and you say to me, ‘Should I get vaccinated?’ I’ll go, ‘No.’”

Rogan’s comments drew widespread condemnation. But his view is surprisingly common. One in four Americans says they don’t plan to take the COVID-19 vaccine, and about half of Republicans under 50 say they won’t get a vaccine. This partisan vaccine gap is already playing out in the real world. The average number of daily shots has declined 20 percent in the past two weeks, largely because states with larger Trump vote shares are falling off the pace.

What are they thinking, these vaccine-hesitant, vaccine-resistant, and COVID-apathetic? I wanted to know. So I posted an invitation on Twitter for anybody who wasn’t planning to get vaccinated to email me and explain why. In the past few days, I spoke or corresponded with more than a dozen such people. I told them that I was staunchly pro-vaccine, but this wouldn’t be a takedown piece. I wanted to produce an ethnography of a position I didn’t really understand.

The people I spoke with were all under 50. A few of them self-identified as Republican, and none of them claimed the modern Democratic Party as their political home. Most said they weren’t against all vaccines; they were just a “no” on this vaccine. They were COVID-19 no-vaxxers, not overall anti-vaxxers.

*snip*


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Arrow 56 replies Author Time Post
Reply Millions Are Saying No to the Vaccines. What Are They Thinking? (Original post)
Nevilledog May 3 OP
Hoyt May 3 #1
Stuart G May 3 #2
Freddie May 3 #3
crickets May 3 #20
Ms. Toad May 3 #38
DFW May 3 #4
lagomorph777 May 3 #6
Hugin May 3 #9
I_UndergroundPanther May 3 #11
marie999 May 3 #12
DFW May 3 #14
marie999 May 3 #17
DFW May 3 #30
former9thward May 3 #19
crickets May 3 #22
DFW May 3 #29
DFW May 3 #28
roamer65 May 3 #37
scrabblequeen40 May 3 #5
bluestarone May 3 #7
tavernier May 4 #54
RobinA May 3 #8
I_UndergroundPanther May 3 #10
maxsolomon May 3 #31
I_UndergroundPanther May 3 #34
maxsolomon May 3 #39
Ms. Toad May 3 #40
womanofthehills May 3 #43
NickB79 May 3 #48
maxsolomon May 3 #49
JHB May 3 #13
DFW May 3 #15
Stuart G May 3 #16
brooklynite May 3 #18
Stuart G May 3 #21
JHB May 3 #44
BannonsLiver May 3 #23
I_UndergroundPanther May 3 #35
womanofthehills May 3 #46
Johonny May 3 #42
Tree Lady May 3 #24
Deep State Witch May 3 #25
gulliver May 3 #26
Johnny2X2X May 3 #27
maxsolomon May 3 #32
Wingus Dingus May 3 #33
Mr.Bill May 3 #36
Raftergirl May 3 #41
Shrek May 3 #47
lanlady May 3 #45
Name removed May 3 #50
marble falls May 4 #53
bullwinkle428 May 4 #55
Chakaconcarne May 3 #51
DonCoquixote May 4 #52
muriel_volestrangler May 4 #56

Response to Nevilledog (Original post)

Mon May 3, 2021, 11:33 AM

1. The rubes in my area are referring to the CV19 vaccine as "experimental."

Some still think the threat is minimal. It's almost laughable. Glad we are vaccinated.

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Response to Nevilledog (Original post)

Mon May 3, 2021, 11:37 AM

2. Stupid is Stupid, and Stupid is Still Stupid..Very Stupid..Too Stupid To Imagine...

....Like swimming in an area full of hungry sharks...(who haven't had anything to eat in a very long time) and thinking that is OK. That is very stupid,but.......................................


............................................... ...NOT AS STUPID AS THESE PEOPLE ARE!!!!

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Response to Nevilledog (Original post)

Mon May 3, 2021, 11:43 AM

3. Interesting (and frustrating) read

The author comes to the conclusion that the best way to persuade the reluctant is to remind them that being vaccinated will help prevent the elderly and vulnerable from getting sick. That’s going against the #1 RWNJ philosophy: if it doesn’t affect me DIRECTLY, who gives a shit.

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Response to Freddie (Reply #3)

Mon May 3, 2021, 12:53 PM

20. Interesting and frustrating - I had the same reaction, although

my take was that the author was not trying to get people to think of everyone's elderly relatives. He was reminding them of their own elderly and vulnerable family members and friends. That it gave them pause is a good thing, though it shows that for some of them this was a concept they hadn't thought about much. Sad.

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Response to crickets (Reply #20)

Mon May 3, 2021, 04:29 PM

38. Whenever someone here responds to people not behaving re COVID with

something along the lines of "Good, let them kill themselves off," they are displaying the same lack of thinking about secondary harm.

I can't even count how many such posts I've responded to, reminding them that the person they don't care about will be spreading COVID to my daughter when she waits on them at Starbucks, to my elderly parents in their extended care community, to me when they pop up in my classroom, etc. That kind of "I'm/you're only hurting my/yourself" attitude isn't the exclusive property of the Republicans.

ETA: I didn't have to go far beyond your post to see it in this thread.

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Response to Nevilledog (Original post)

Mon May 3, 2021, 11:55 AM

4. This is serious enough to take national action

Have vaccination cards for those who are vaccinated. Have a national register for those who consciously refuse to get vaccinated.

For those who consciously refuse vaccination, they should be refused treatment if they contract it. I'm serious.
These people are making a voluntary statement that their lives are not worth saving. So don't. Save our limited
facilities and resources for those who DO care if they get sick. Those who are unlucky to get Covid-19 despite
vaccination--treat them. Those who want/wanted vaccination, but were so far unable to get it, and fall victim to
Covid-19? Treat them. But those who feel there is no need for them to get vaccinated (and have no legitimate medical
reason not to), should not be allowed to change their minds if they fall victim to their own stupidity. Let them ask
Tucker Carlson to treat them.

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Response to DFW (Reply #4)

Mon May 3, 2021, 11:57 AM

6. Agreed - let them remove themselves from the population.

They will deserve to die.

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Response to DFW (Reply #4)

Mon May 3, 2021, 12:02 PM

9. Seconded.

From your keyboard to God's PED.

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Response to DFW (Reply #4)

Mon May 3, 2021, 12:06 PM

11. Totally agree with you.

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Response to DFW (Reply #4)

Mon May 3, 2021, 12:11 PM

12. I can not believe the number of Democrats that want people to die

without the medical care they need. That will look good in the ads the Republicans use in 2022 and 2024. Why don't we ask President Biden how he feels about letting people die without medical care.

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Response to marie999 (Reply #12)

Mon May 3, 2021, 12:28 PM

14. I don't care if they die or not.

I just say they have no right to demand medical care over those who tried not to get the virus, and that in the case of limited resources to treat those who fall ill to it, they have no right to expect that treatment. By refusing vaccination, they are actively stating their right to not only get sick (that is their right, granted), but make others sick (that is not their right, ever).

Maybe that is not enough to warrant incarceration for assault with a deadly weapon (in the 1980s, some were jailed for consciously giving others AIDS, if you want a precedent), but I find it more than grounds enough to refuse such people treatment if they had a chance to take preventive measures and laughed it off.

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Response to DFW (Reply #14)

Mon May 3, 2021, 12:44 PM

17. I can not believe that a member of DU would refuse treatment to someone who is sick.

What about a doctor who doesn't believe in abortions and a doctor who performs them is brought in after being shot? If he lets him die he won't kill any more "babies".

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Response to marie999 (Reply #17)

Mon May 3, 2021, 01:55 PM

30. The doctor didn't shoot himself.

I'm taking about someone committing the equivalent of murder and suicide, not refusing treatment to someone afflicted against their will.

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Response to DFW (Reply #14)

Mon May 3, 2021, 12:50 PM

19. Your philosophy goes against all medical ethics in the U.S.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #19)

Mon May 3, 2021, 12:54 PM

22. Thank you.

I understand the frustration and anger, but punishment by withholding care is not the way.

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Response to crickets (Reply #22)

Mon May 3, 2021, 01:52 PM

29. One must set priorities if resources are limited, which they are and always will be

I cannot accept that one who refused protection for themself, much less others, can demand treatment before one infected involuntarily. I cannot advocate such selfishness under any circumstances.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #19)

Mon May 3, 2021, 01:47 PM

28. It goes against all medical ethics taught ANYWHERE

It took a drastic attitude on the part of the refuse-to-get-vaccinated to bring me to this point of view. But a deliberate willingness to expose one's self as well as others to death, as far as I am concerned, negates what, in any other case, should the right of anyone to be treated.

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Response to DFW (Reply #4)

Mon May 3, 2021, 03:55 PM

37. These are the idiots who whine about "personal responsibility".

While I would not deny them treatment, it would be non-priority palliative care. People who have a solid medical reason for not being vaccinated and the vaccinated “breakthrough” cases would be first priority.

I would also give insurance companies the right to deny coverage for the condition if there were no solid reason for a person not getting vaccinated. The cost would come out of the persons own pocket and I would go after assets to recover the costs.

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Response to Nevilledog (Original post)

Mon May 3, 2021, 11:57 AM

5. May karma pay a visit.

The sooner, the better for the rest of us.

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Response to Nevilledog (Original post)

Mon May 3, 2021, 11:59 AM

7. I really believe the ONLY way to get them to vaccinate is to

DEMAND it on ALL transportation industries. (when fully FDA approved that would be a good start)

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Response to bluestarone (Reply #7)

Tue May 4, 2021, 08:31 AM

54. Of course.

No flights, no cruises, etc.
And all staff of public schools to prevent outbreaks.
Already I know employers of private businesses who insist on their employees getting vaccinated. We managed a resort in the Keys for many years and always insisted on (and paid for) our employees to get yearly flu shots, because once tourist season started everyone would get ill. It sure decreased the amount of sick days after we started doing that.

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Response to Nevilledog (Original post)

Mon May 3, 2021, 11:59 AM

8. Many Reasons

I got vaccinated because I kept being afraid I would give it to somebody. This doesn't seem to work for everybody. I'm an essential worker and have worked every workday of COVID. I find, also, that a lot of people who have been sick in the past year and four months believe they've had COVID with no real proof, and therefore don't need the shot.

I'm a proponent of making life more difficult for the unvaccinated. That way they experience the logical consequences of not vaccinating in the middle of a pandemic. Right now, I, the vaccinated, have to make adjustments for the unvaccinated. I still have to wear my mask, many events still don't take place. We need to start saying, OK, if you don't want to be vaccinated, fine, but you can't do stuff where you might infect someone.

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Response to Nevilledog (Original post)

Mon May 3, 2021, 12:03 PM

10. Fully vaccinated here.

But one of my friends is putting off getting vaccinated. She has bought into a few conspirasies.

Her sister( not biological) got really sick from the vaccine and may lose her job due to the side effects.

It has spooked her.

I asked her if her fears were worth infecting maybe killing her parents or kids or getting put on a vent?
I told her I took the shot and my reaction was not so bad.

She changed the subject.

She talks all day about how the controlling crazy magats are so scared and she pities them because they are human beings blah,blah,blah...

She just refuses to see how her fears are controlling her too.

She claims she has no fear..but her fears may lead to death.

I just can't forgive her selfish fears regarding the vaccine.

I tried.

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Response to I_UndergroundPanther (Reply #10)

Mon May 3, 2021, 02:10 PM

31. "May lose her job due to the side effects"?

Can you explain that one more?

Because she missed work with flu-like symptoms and her employer doesn't have sick leave?

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Response to maxsolomon (Reply #31)

Mon May 3, 2021, 03:04 PM

34. She's a teacher and I have no clue what her

Job situation is.

I think she's making excuses. Embellishing so her vaccine hangups look legit.

Anyway that's her reason and I think she's looking for an excuse to be paranoid.

Don't know this 100% but I suspect it.

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Response to I_UndergroundPanther (Reply #34)

Mon May 3, 2021, 04:30 PM

39. Yeah, that set my radar off.

Teachers are allowed to get sick.

You have patience of a saint; I'm really glad I have zero deniers in my life.

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Response to I_UndergroundPanther (Reply #34)

Mon May 3, 2021, 04:41 PM

40. Teachers, as a rule, hav eample sick days

I earned 1.25 days a month, had enough built up to spend a full month in the hospital and still have over 100 when I left teaching after 11 years.

. . . On the other hand, we also had a few very short-sighted teachers who treated sick days as vacation days and never had any banked when they needed them. (I refused to contribute my 100+ days to the community bank because by and large the people who needed them weren't those with catastrophic illnesses. They were the ones who used every sick day the month in which it was received.) So if she's in that category . . . no sympathy for her.

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Response to maxsolomon (Reply #31)

Mon May 3, 2021, 06:23 PM

43. If you go over to the government site VAERS

Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting Systems you can read about thousands of reports of serious side effects. Although the majority of people have no side effects - a small percentage die and have serious side effects.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #43)

Mon May 3, 2021, 07:20 PM

48. Anyone can report anything to VAERS. ANYTHING

It operates on an honor system.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2017/may/11/bill-zedler/bill-zedler-insists-program-doesnt-collect-wide-ra/

Zedler: "So they put on there and they say, oh, just any death, and we don’t have to prove causality?"

McGee: "Yes. It’s not a system to prove causality. It’s a system to track data and then the physicians or researchers at the CDC go and determine causality after that. It is not a system that could determine causality, it’s not."


For example, someone reported, and had it accepted, that the flu vaccine turned them into the Incredible Hulk. It was only removed after he blogged about it, and was then contacted and asked for permission to remove it from their system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Laidler

Anyone who cites VAERS as a reliable source on vaccine side effects, especially in this day and age with millions of anti-vaxxer nutjobs given unlimited access to post to it, is a moron.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #43)

Mon May 3, 2021, 09:37 PM

49. I know the Blood Clots from the J&J killed a few people.

But I was more curious why side effects would cause someone to lose their job.

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Response to Nevilledog (Original post)

Mon May 3, 2021, 12:16 PM

13. Why? Because they're inFOXicated.

Even if individuals get it more from other right-wing sources, it's still the high-capacity propaganda pipeline of FOX that feeds into the others.

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Response to JHB (Reply #13)

Mon May 3, 2021, 12:31 PM

15. Great expression! InFOXicated

Being inFOXicated shields you from reality, empathy and scruples.

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Response to JHB (Reply #13)

Mon May 3, 2021, 12:36 PM

16. Please spread the term...."inFOXicated"...credit to JHB!!!!

In this thread...:https://www.democraticunderground.com/100215395850

......post number 13....spread the term...to everyone...

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Response to Stuart G (Reply #16)

Mon May 3, 2021, 12:48 PM

18. Sorry, this is a simplistic answer...

First, Fox doesn't change liberals into conservatives (or QANON adherents), it simply reinforces beliefs they already have.

Second, anti-vaxxers can be both right-wing (anti-Government) and left-win (anti-"Big Pharma"

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #18)

Mon May 3, 2021, 12:54 PM

21. I disagree..Fox gives credit and standing to these beliefs. Fox is a national TV network

that kind of approves of these ideas....A "news network" that gives approval to right wing .."beliefs"

Yes, "Fox News" claims to be ..NEWS......Is that correct?

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #18)

Mon May 3, 2021, 06:38 PM

44. My comment went to this part of the OP, which is why I thought it was relevant...

The people I spoke with were all under 50. A few of them self-identified as Republican, and none of them claimed the modern Democratic Party as their political home. Most said they weren’t against all vaccines; they were just a “no” on this vaccine. They were COVID-19 no-vaxxers, not overall anti-vaxxers.


So this isn't about general anti-vaxx beliefs, but the skewed nature of being a "COVID-19 no-vaxxer."

With only 11 people it's hardly a scientific poll, but for most of the views outlined reflect the sort of "no big deal" line pumped out for a year by Bullshit Mountain and its sister peaks in the Excrement Range. Even for non-viewers, it creates the background lighting that colors every discussion.

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Response to Nevilledog (Original post)

Mon May 3, 2021, 12:54 PM

23. These people all have one thing in common

They think they’re more clever than most people and have some special insight no one else has. They’re both arrogant and incredibly dumb which is a bad combination.

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Response to BannonsLiver (Reply #23)

Mon May 3, 2021, 03:12 PM

35. The friend

I was talking about upthread..is desperate to be seen as unique and she's not all that brilliant. She does not understand scientific method,and a lot of other things and she makes decisions with her emotions too much.. I told her she was not dumbas she used to think she was stupid and was down on herself about it but she seems to have added that to her quest to be unique and her head has swollen regarding it. She's average intelligence.

And that's the last thing she'd ever accept about herself is her averageness,and mediocrity. All of us have averages and mediocrity in something but not everybody builds thier whole identity on avoiding and denying it.

And she thinks she already had covid and she's full of shit about that.

She's being stupid.

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Response to I_UndergroundPanther (Reply #35)

Mon May 3, 2021, 06:46 PM

46. Actually, many labs will test for antibodies if you think you had covid

The lab that advertises in my area claims Medicare will pay. My friend had Covid a yr ago, and has tested 4 times that she still has antibodies from natural infection.

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Response to BannonsLiver (Reply #23)

Mon May 3, 2021, 05:55 PM

42. that's my general experience

the problem is there were people that make money selling anti-VAX agenda for years now so there's a ready made market for this stuff.

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Response to Nevilledog (Original post)

Mon May 3, 2021, 01:04 PM

24. Young people are starting to be in the hospital in my area

With the variants, I think as this becomes more common they will change their minds.

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Response to Nevilledog (Original post)

Mon May 3, 2021, 01:20 PM

25. Excuses

1. It's experimental.
2. It's not fully approved by the FDA. (FDA could fix that easily)
3. I'm pregnant
4. Big pharma
5. I've already had COVID and it was just like the flu.

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Response to Nevilledog (Original post)

Mon May 3, 2021, 01:26 PM

26. A lot will change their minds as the pressure grows.

The private sector will keep the pressure on. People who are vaccinated will be preferred (as customers and workers). That will be enough to get us to herd immunity imo.

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Response to Nevilledog (Original post)

Mon May 3, 2021, 01:32 PM

27. Me me me!

The GOP is all about Me Me Me! These people only think of things in terms of their selves, and even then they're still deluded. No one of them talked about the possibility that they'll give it to someone else who will die from it.

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Response to Nevilledog (Original post)

Mon May 3, 2021, 02:13 PM

32. There's always going to be a % of the population that are irrationally afraid.

Last edited Mon May 3, 2021, 10:03 PM - Edit history (1)

It doesn't have to be this large.

Figures they trust need to be out front in a PR campaign. For instance, I follow a Free-Funk Bass Player, Jamaladeen Tacuma, who is appealing to his fellow Muslims to get the vaccine and put aside their suspicions based on racial history.

But for Cons, I have no idea who they'd trust any more. Hannity?

On edit: I read the article. Absolute selfish churlishness.

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Response to Nevilledog (Original post)

Mon May 3, 2021, 02:19 PM

33. Fundamentally, this is the "if I get it, I'll be fine--I don't really care if I spread it to

other people who might not be fine" crowd. They either don't know, or don't care, how public health works or how diseases spread and mutate. It's all about me, myself and I.

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Response to Nevilledog (Original post)

Mon May 3, 2021, 03:49 PM

36. The underlying strategy has to be,

we know we can't make you get the vaccine, but we can make you wish you had.

Treat these people in all aspects of life like they are currently infected and are spreading the virus.

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Response to Nevilledog (Original post)

Mon May 3, 2021, 04:55 PM

41. They are lost causes.

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Response to Raftergirl (Reply #41)

Mon May 3, 2021, 07:05 PM

47. Not necessarily

Some of the people interviewed for the article are willing to listen:

I made this case to several no-vaxxers: Your grandparents, elderly neighbors, and immunocompromised friends will be safer if you’re vaccinated, even if you’ve already been infected. I played with the “COVID is no worse than driving” metaphor that many of them offered. I agree that driving is acceptably safe for most people, I said. But imagine, I added, if you could have a forward collision warning system installed in your car for free? An already-pretty-safe activity would become an even safer activity; and what’s more, you’d be protecting other people on the road at minimal cost to yourself.

I can’t tell you this argument got a lot of people to drop the phone, sprint to a vaccine clinic, and sign up for a Fauci tattoo on their arm. The truth is that I’m not sure that I changed anybody’s mind. But I can honestly say that this argument gave several no-vaxxers a bit of pause. They responded by talking about chains of transmission throughout the community, rather than focusing on their own immune system. Several of them asked to see evidence of my position so that they could examine it for themselves.

The United States suffers from a deficit of imagining the lives of other people. This is true of my side: Vaccinated liberals don’t take much time to calmly hear out the logic of those refusing the shots. But it’s also true of the no-vaxxers, who might reconsider their view if they grasped the far-ranging consequences of their private vaccination decisions.


They are not uniformly stupid and closed-minded; it's worth it to try to reach them.

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Response to Nevilledog (Original post)

Mon May 3, 2021, 06:44 PM

45. A guy I work who is strongly anti-COVID vax changed his tune when...

... the big boss told him that whenever he travels internationally (which is quite often - it's part of his job), he'll have to quarantine for 10 days since he has not been vaccinated. Company policy, applies to everyone. The 10 days will be taken out of his vacation hours, and when he runs out of those, he'll need to quarantine while on leave without pay.

Guess who picked up the phone and scheduled his first Pfizer vax?

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Response to lanlady (Reply #45)


Response to lanlady (Reply #45)

Tue May 4, 2021, 08:17 AM

53. The guy who wasn't so antivax once his stand was put on the line?

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Response to lanlady (Reply #45)

Tue May 4, 2021, 08:40 AM

55. Bingo! I work for a large, multinational corporation, and it's amazing how

many co-workers changed their tune once the business made them realize their future might not be so bright as a part of that organization going forward, if they chose to "opt out".

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Response to Nevilledog (Original post)

Mon May 3, 2021, 11:19 PM

51. Who cares?

As long as people who want it get it...... the rest are on their own.

Why make this into a war? Why force it?

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Response to Chakaconcarne (Reply #51)

Tue May 4, 2021, 12:48 AM

52. because that will let the virus stick around

and mutate into soemthign vaccien proof, then we ALL die because some idiot wanted to feel like an AMERKIN

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Response to Nevilledog (Original post)

Tue May 4, 2021, 11:50 AM

56. They "trust their own immune system, not pharmaceuticals"; tell them the vaccine starts the immune

system response, but without the risk of getting the symptoms by actually being infected. Tell them a vaccine works by allowing your immune system to train against a harmless imitation of the virus, rather than having to start when the real virus has invaded their body. And tell them that tests show that even if you have already had Covid and survived with mild or no symptoms, the vaccine improves your immune system response.

They seem to think "if it's from a pharmaceutical company, it's a drug". If they understand it's not a drug, and it's their own immune system that'll produce the response, that may appeal to their sense of health and self-reliance.

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