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Wed Apr 28, 2021, 08:59 PM

Does anyone understand sovereign and moorish citizens?

I'm trying to wrap my head around how bat shit crazy these people are.

(edit)
I should probably give some context, I saw a cop dealing with a guy who kept saying he doesn't need a drivers license or registration to operate a motor vehicle because he is traveling not operating in a commercial capacity. He kept waving a printed paper to the cop saying that was all he needed legally needed to show him and kept quoting, badly, from Black's Law Dictionary.

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Reply Does anyone understand sovereign and moorish citizens? (Original post)
ripcord Apr 28 OP
TreasonousBastard Apr 28 #1
NutmegYankee Apr 28 #2
soothsayer Apr 28 #3
ripcord Apr 28 #4
Hassin Bin Sober Apr 28 #14
keithbvadu2 Apr 28 #5
JHB Apr 28 #6
rsdsharp Apr 28 #7
ripcord Apr 28 #9
rsdsharp Apr 28 #10
Javaman Apr 28 #8
RockRaven Apr 28 #11
tulipsandroses Apr 28 #12
Dave Starsky Thursday #20
tulipsandroses Thursday #21
Bucky Apr 28 #13
Klaralven Apr 28 #15
Hassin Bin Sober Apr 28 #16
ck4829 Apr 28 #17
canetoad Thursday #18
rampartc Thursday #19
Baitball Blogger Thursday #22

Response to ripcord (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 09:00 PM

1. Not me.

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Response to ripcord (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 09:03 PM

2. I understand the motivation, but the ideology is argle-bargle

The motivation, usually for people with legal and financial issues is to find some magical out from society. It makes them feel special and in control.

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Response to ripcord (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 09:03 PM

3. Sovereign citizens believe they coexist in the US but are not subject to laws or taxes

They don’t need driver’s licenses because they’re not driving, they’re traveling.

They just try to invent loopholes. Kind of like the GQP.

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Response to soothsayer (Reply #3)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 09:17 PM

4. That was it

He wasn't operating commercially he was traveling to he isn't required to have a driver's license, registration or insurance, even his license plates were home-made. I heard one cop tell another these sovereign citizen encounter almost always end in an arrest and he was right, since the guy refused to identify himself during a traffic investigation he was arrested and immediately began screaming about an illegal corporate entity violating his rights.

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Response to soothsayer (Reply #3)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 11:21 PM

14. I gotta say I kinda agree with the traveling thingy.

Not the lack or driver’s license or plate thing but giving up most of your rights once you step foot in an automobile. I don’t think The Framers could have envisioned us giving up most of our rights on the road.

This “privilege to drive” idea has gone too far. It’s the best way for cops to hassle minorities.

That said the sovereign citizens are a trip. Most are harmless but there is a scary bunch that fit in with the “Posse Comitatus” fringe militia types - cops are scared to death of that bunch because they like to kill cops.

Rachael Maddow did a great piece on the posse comitatus movement.

You see a lot of that streak in trumpers and the 2020 election.


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Response to ripcord (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 09:18 PM

5. They don't want to adapt to our country's culture.

They don't want to adapt to our country's culture.

Isn't that a RW talking point?

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Response to ripcord (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 09:25 PM

6. Easy-peasy...

Self-centered assholes who construct fantasy worlds to justify ignoring anybody or anything who interferes with them being kings (and tyrants) of their own little worlds.

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Response to ripcord (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 09:30 PM

7. A few years ago I saw a video of a woman claiming to be a "Free Inhabitant"

under Article IV of The Articles of Confederation. She claimed as a “Free Inhabitant” she wasn’t subject to the laws of the state in which she had been stopped for a traffic violation.

Putting aside the fact that The Articles of Confederation were replaced by the Constitution, she had conveniently overlooked the highlighted language in Article IV:

The better to secure and perpetuate mutual friendship and intercourse among the people of the different States in this Union, the free inhabitants of each of these States, paupers, vagabonds, and fugitives from justice excepted, shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of free citizens in the several States; and the people of each State shall free ingress and regress to and from any other State, and shall enjoy therein all the privileges of trade and commerce, subject to the same duties, impositions, and restrictions as the inhabitants thereof respectively, provided that such restrictions shall not extend so far as to prevent the removal of property imported into any State, to any other State, of which the owner is an inhabitant; provided also that no imposition, duties or restriction shall be laid by any State, on the property of the United States, or either of them.

They also often cite the UCC (Uniform Commercial Code) for things to which it has no application. I don’t even know where they get the “traveling” bullshit. They are loons.

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Response to rsdsharp (Reply #7)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 09:43 PM

9. He was claiming common law supersedes any U.S. laws

He was yelling something about corporate entities, trusts and names in all capital letters, claimed to be a moorish citizen and as such was outside U.S. laws but the cops kept calling him a sovereign citizen.

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Response to ripcord (Reply #9)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 09:49 PM

10. Sovereign Citizen is a catch all for this nonsense.

Some claim to be sovereign citizens, some claim other stuff. They often claim not to have a name, but are representing to entity known as Joe Blow.

It all comes down to idiots trying to claim they get the rights of being in this country, but aren’t subject to the laws, and certainly not any restrictions.

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Response to ripcord (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 09:38 PM

8. It's libertarianism on acid.

Beyond that they are lazy pieces of shit always trying to scam, steal and grift the system.

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Response to ripcord (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 09:52 PM

11. I understand that cops and judges ignore their ramblings and arrest and convict them like normal.

Which ought to clue them in that they are mistaken, but apparently it does not.

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Response to ripcord (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 11:02 PM

12. Moorish Citizens are bit more complex. Like others have said, sovereigns are a nutty bunch.

There should be a distinction between those who identify themselves as moorish sovereign citizens and those that follow the religion/beliefs of Noble Drew Ali. The Moorish religion or belief system is kinda along the lines of Nation of Islam being its own off shoot of Islam. Noble Drew Ali is their prophet. It must be exhausting to have their name linked to the nutty ideas of the sovereign nuts. I've seen lazy journalists do this.

Moorish Sovereigns are twisted off shoot of the Moors. Its a hodge podge of conspiracy theories, pseudo history and pseudo science.
Its also a way to scam folks.
Unfortunately, a lot of good meaning, long suffering black folks have fallen prey to some of this nonsense.
Some of the "leaders" and biggest proponents on social media, have become like those grifting preachers, promising some kind of legal salvation if only people believe their way of thinking and more importantly, buy whatever they are selling so they can get rich. Its really a shame. They have tapped into scamming gullible folks, just like slimy tv preachers.

I think most moorish sovereigns, are lost, gullible and some are just plain ol dumb. It can be quite cult like, like the QAnon nut jobs.
In fact, there was a Moorish Sovereign Cult several years ago that like with most cults, the leader was a horrific abusive monster.

The Story Behind a Black Supremacist Cult That Lived in Egyptian-Themed Compound in Rural Georgia
Dwight "Malachi" York, founder of the United Nuwaubian Nation of Moors, moved the group to "Tama-Re" in Putnam County, Georgia, in the '90s
On May 8, 2002, 300 local and federal law enforcement officers in rural Georgia raided the Egyptian-themed compound of the United Nuwaubian Nation of Moors. The cult’s founder, Dwight “Malachi” York, had been arrested hours earlier — accused of molesting dozens of his follower’s children.
[link:https://people.com/crime/story-behind-united-nuwaubian-nation-moors-georgia-cult/|

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Response to tulipsandroses (Reply #12)

Thu Apr 29, 2021, 07:56 AM

20. Sovereign citizens are tax dodging clowns. Period.

Their motives are no more pure than that.

I frankly don't give a fuck what they do in their cars as long as they do it on roads that they build and maintain themselves.

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Response to Dave Starsky (Reply #20)

Thu Apr 29, 2021, 12:13 PM

21. I am a bit confused. I haven't given a motive for sovereign citizens. The OP asked about Moorish

citizens as well, which is an offshoot of Moorish religious beliefs. I thought it was important to make that distinction because all Moors are not tax dodgers or sovereigns. Furthermore, there is a problem - specific to the black community - where Charlatans identifying themselves as Moors, prey on people that don't know better. So not sure what you are addressing in my commentary.

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Response to ripcord (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 11:15 PM

13. The legal term for the "sovereign citizen" movement is 'whiny little brats'

They think the freedom to operate your vehicle on public roads it's not subject to limitations by the harms you might do by running into other citizens.

I think they dodge their taxes too. Dig the roads, don't like paying for them. I believe Jane's Addiction defined their ideology back in the 90s



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Response to ripcord (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 11:28 PM

15. A Man Who Is His Own Lawyer Has a Fool for a Client

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Response to ripcord (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 11:30 PM

16. This is a classic

Sovereign citizens remind me of Burt from that old TV show Soap. He would snap his fingers and claim he was invisible - even though everyone can see him.


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Response to ripcord (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 11:43 PM

17. It would be interesting to see a sovereign citizen vs a sovereign citizen

Let's say one "sovereign citizen" accidentally hits another "sovereign citizen" with a car.

They'd both be wanting the protections of the 14th Amendment society they resent so much while simultaneously claiming that the laws and norms of modern society don't apply to them.

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Response to ripcord (Original post)

Thu Apr 29, 2021, 12:04 AM

18. The term 'Moorish Citizen' (I had to look it up)

Seems to be an attempt to rope Black people into the sovereign citz movement.

Quora has a few gems:

A phantom. There are no sovereign citizens (it's a delusional fantasy), and there are no longer any Moors. The term used to refer to various North Africans, especially those who occupied Spain, but they were driven out of Spain and don't call themselves that any more.

Anyone who calls himself a Moorish sovereign citizen is just a weirdo.


Short answer: A Moorish sovereign citizen is a crank; a nutcase. Fool is a word that comes to mind. There is no such thing as as “sovereign citizen,” Moorish or otherwise.

By the way, the term Moorish should be a tip-off. Nobody has been called Moorish since Spaniards were known as Savilians and Castillians, and the folks from the Maghreb, go by Berber as their ethnic identity. Well, there’s the Shriner’s, who claim to have “Moorish rites,” but that’s a club of little old men who collect money for charity and participate in parades.

Just for the record, there’s no such thing as a Berber “sovereign citizen” either.


https://www.quora.com/What-is-a-Moorish-sovereign-citizen?share=1

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Response to ripcord (Original post)

Thu Apr 29, 2021, 01:38 AM

19. splc has good descriptions of these groups

our neighborhood has been occupied by squatters claiming to be the "washitaw nation." they find an unoccupied house and claim that some bogus paper gives them possession. takes weeks and lawyers to get rid of them.

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Response to ripcord (Original post)

Thu Apr 29, 2021, 12:16 PM

22. They're not batshit crazy. They become lawyers and take their beliefs to the extreme

especially where it entails property rights. Many people give them support without seeing the bigger picture.

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