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Wed Apr 28, 2021, 02:03 AM

Who Here Thinks Officer Sicknick Died From Natural Causes

The day after being sprayed with an unknown substance?

32 replies, 1275 views

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Reply Who Here Thinks Officer Sicknick Died From Natural Causes (Original post)
DanieRains Apr 28 OP
DanieRains Apr 28 #1
bottomofthehill Apr 28 #16
Effete Snob Apr 28 #19
bottomofthehill Apr 28 #22
Effete Snob Apr 28 #23
ck4829 Apr 28 #2
JI7 Apr 28 #3
secondwind Apr 28 #5
Raine Apr 28 #7
bottomofthehill Apr 28 #18
Hekate Apr 28 #4
czarjak Apr 28 #6
Phoenix61 Apr 28 #8
Effete Snob Apr 28 #11
malaise Apr 28 #9
Effete Snob Apr 28 #14
tavernier Apr 28 #10
bottomofthehill Apr 28 #17
BlueStater Apr 28 #12
brooklynite Apr 28 #13
Effete Snob Apr 28 #15
bottomofthehill Apr 28 #20
Effete Snob Apr 28 #21
bottomofthehill Apr 28 #24
Effete Snob Apr 28 #27
bottomofthehill Apr 28 #30
Effete Snob Apr 28 #31
bullwinkle428 Apr 28 #25
Phoenix61 Apr 28 #26
bottomofthehill Apr 28 #29
Effete Snob Apr 28 #28
msfiddlestix Apr 28 #32

Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 02:05 AM

1. A Young Healthy Policeman

With no major health problems.

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Response to DanieRains (Reply #1)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 08:03 AM

16. What did the Medical Examiner say was the cause of George Floyd's death.

Cardiac Arrest. Not that a violent psycho asshole kept his knee on his neck depriving him of oxygen causing his heart to stop beating, the ME said Cardiac Arrest, yet we could all see what killed him.

What caused Brian Sicknick death. Engaging with violent insurrectionists who were using all sorts of chemicals from tear gas, pepper spray, bear spray, bug spray, fire extinguisher, throwing solid objects, poles, spears, concrete chunks, construction debris, bike rack, throwing punches and kicks, using tasers and so much more.

Brian was a young healthy cop on the bike unit. With out the attack on the Capitol, Brian would still be alive. Some people sound like idiots when they say stupid things like we are padding the Covid numbers with excuses like :
the person was old, had a heart condition, died of pneumonia, had blood clots, yes stupid, many people did not die of the symptoms of Covid, they died of the result of contracting Covid and other things kicked into high gear. Brin died of the result of the insurrection.

Also, this discussion is the first time and place I have seen anything about the race of the ME. It is bullshit and has nothing to do with the declaration of Brianís death so letís us not make it one.

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Response to bottomofthehill (Reply #16)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 08:25 AM

19. You are making things up

The Hennepin County Medical Examiner ruled the manner of Floyd's death to be a homicide.

ME's generally make two findings - the CAUSE of death and the MANNER of death.

The ME finding in Floyd's case, which you are now distorting, was:

"Manner of Death: Homicide"

Changing documented history to suit your narrative is not a good approach to facts.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/hennepin-county-medical-examiner-declares-george-floyds-death-a-homicide



That last paragraph deserves an explanation.

"Homicide" is the killing of a human by another human. "Homicide" is not a crime, it is a fact. Whether a particular homicide is, or is not, a crime, depends on the intent of the killer. For example, a homicide may be legally justified (self defense), purely accidental, negligent, reckless, intentional, or premeditated - all of which may classify the homicide under a mere homicide or some type of homicide to which civil or criminal liability may attach.

But there is no question what the Floyd ME concluded, and it is surprising that people forget so quickly.

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Response to Effete Snob (Reply #19)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 08:34 AM

22. My bad, from your provided report cardiopulmonary arrest

Not cardiac arrest, I stand corrected.

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Response to bottomofthehill (Reply #22)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 08:35 AM

23. It also says "HOMICIDE"

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 02:07 AM

2. Almost reads like one of those things where the report is: He was tied up, gagged, shot mulitple

times (With two shots in the head), toxicology showed so many drugs in his system that he would have been unconscious, and his body shows bruising and fractures consistent with a beating.

Determination of cause of death: SUICIDE

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 02:24 AM

3. Natural Cause deaths can be caused by things like stress ,emtional trauma etc

That's what I think happened. He was a veteran who already had trouble dealing with his time in the W Bush Wars. And now this .....

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Response to JI7 (Reply #3)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 03:37 AM

5. I agree with you.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #3)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 04:36 AM

7. That's what I think too. nt

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Response to JI7 (Reply #3)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 08:06 AM

18. There is a more direct line

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 02:35 AM

4. Both my husband and I responded to that news with sarcastic variants on "Yeah, sure he did."

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 03:53 AM

6. Hateful ignorance does come naturally for too many?

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 05:42 AM

8. Considering the medical examiner ruled he

suffered two strokes, I do. Do you believe the medical examiner is incompetent or corrupt?

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Response to Phoenix61 (Reply #8)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 07:15 AM

11. Some people believe in science selectively

Obviously, people with no relevant background who have not conducted an examination or even read the detailed report know better.

This is the essence of cult thinking. There is no need to critically examine the evidence or methodology supporting the conclusion. The answer is already known.

It is the same way that Trump supporters know that covid is a hoax and the election was stolen.

The medical examiner is a corrupt stooge, like medical examiners everywhere.

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 06:54 AM

9. Not me

They killed him

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Response to malaise (Reply #9)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 07:28 AM

14. Why do you think this woman is a liar?


Someone needs to check her bank accounts.




Chief Toxicologist, Samantha Tolliver Ph.D

Samantha S. Tolliver, Ph.D., is the Chief Toxicologist at the Washington, DC Office of the Chief Medical Examiner (DC OCME). She was previously employed as the Deputy Chief Toxicologist at the DC OCME and has been employed there since 2014.

Her fifteen years of toxicology experience include postmortem, driving under the influence, drug facilitated crime, pre/post exposure and work place drug testing. Her testimony experience encompasses both civil (family law) and criminal, within the States of Texas and Massachusetts, as well as the District of Columbia.

Dr. Tolliver holds a Bachelorís Degree in Chemistry from West Virginia State University. She earned both her Master of Science in Forensic Science, as well as a Doctorate in Chemistry from Florida International University.

She is certified in toxicology from the National Registry of Certified Chemists. Dr. Tolliver has made scientific presentations at the Drug & Alcohol Testing Industry Association, the American Academy of Forensic Scientists and the Society of Forensic Toxicologists (SOFT). Dr. Tolliver is an active member of SOFT and the American Academy of Forensic Sciences.


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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 07:06 AM

10. Yes.

Itís pretty natural that someone who is beat to death will die. Multiple strokes donít occur in young healthy people without a cause.

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Response to tavernier (Reply #10)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 08:04 AM

17. +1

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 07:23 AM

12. I believe he died of a stroke.

I also believe it was brought on by the stress of going through the events of the previous day.

Whether he died of actual physical injuries dealt to him by the insurrectionist or not, they still killed him.

If you terrorize and torment someone to the point where they suffer a massive heart attack and die, youíre still responsible for that personís death even if you never laid a finger on them.

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 07:24 AM

13. Who are you saying is "covering up" the actual cause?

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #13)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 07:32 AM

15. An immigrant and an African American woman

The DC Chief medical examiner is from the Dominican Republic, and the chief toxicologist is an African American woman.

Thatís who is being slammed here:

https://ocme.dc.gov/page/executive-staff-ocme

This is Dr. Tolliver, the chief toxicologist of the DC Office of Medical Examiner



Many people can tell she is untrustworthy just by looking at her.

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 08:27 AM

20. Let's try this again

Last edited Wed Apr 28, 2021, 09:09 AM - Edit history (1)

What killed officer William ďBillyĒ Evans another USCP officer who died earlier this month. He died of ďBlunt Force Trauma to the HeadĒ. What actually killed Billy, he was hit by a car. The ME report does not always match the actual cause of death. They both died protecting the Capitol, Members of Congress and Democracy itself.

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Response to bottomofthehill (Reply #20)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 08:33 AM

21. You are still making things up

Twice in this thread, you have distorted the statements of other ME's, by conflating "cause" and "manner" findings.

The ME declared Evans' (not Evers) death to be a homicide. Just like the ME in the Floyd case.

https://www.cbs58.com/news/capitol-police-officer-rammed-by-car-died-of-blunt-force-head-injuries-medical-examiner-says

(CNN) -- US Capitol Police Officer William "Billy" Evans, who was rammed by a car at the Capitol last week, died of multiple blunt force injuries to the head, the DC medical examiner said late Thursday.

Evans' death was ruled a homicide, according to a statement from the medical examiner's office.

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Response to Effete Snob (Reply #21)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 08:42 AM

24. Nope, I pretty much say cause of death not manner

What I did not do, was interject the Race of the ME with nice big pictures and side comments which is really making a bullshit argument.

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Response to bottomofthehill (Reply #24)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 09:35 AM

27. The ME in the Floyd case determined homicide, The ME in the Evans case determined homicide

You are selectively reading those reports to make an utterly invalid point that the ME in the case of Officer Sicknick somehow managed to side with white supremacists and cover up a homicide.

In order to do that, Dr. Tolliver must be stupid or corrupt, so which one is it?

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Response to Effete Snob (Reply #27)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 10:36 AM

30. Probably neither but I know this

It has nothing to do with her immigrant status or race. Why you interject that....

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Response to bottomofthehill (Reply #30)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 01:47 PM

31. It figures you did not even look

The immigrant and the African American woman are two different people. But you did not bother to look at the information I provided, because you do not care about these accomplished professionals.

The implication here is that the District of Columbia Medical Examiner's office is covering up on behalf of white supremacist rioters.

The most charitable interpretations is that the relevant people in that office can't figure out if a stroke was or was not caused by some kind of poison.

Since you did not even bother to look at the biographies of the persons in question, the DC Chief Medical Examiner is Dr. Francisco J. Diaz:

https://ocme.dc.gov/page/executive-staff-ocme



Dr. Francisco J. Diaz received his medical degree in his native country, Dominican Republic. After receiving his medical degree, Dr. Diaz trained in Anatomic Pathology at Conemaugh Memorial Medical Center in Johnstown, Pennsylvania/Temple University. In 2000, Dr. Diaz accepted a fellowship in forensic pathology with the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania in affiliation with Hahnemann University (now Drexel University).

After completing the forensic pathology fellowship, Dr. Diaz joined the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner in Wayne County, Michigan as an Assistant Medical Examiner. In January 2012, in affiliation with the Wayne County Medical Examiner's Office, Dr. Diaz was appointed to the University of Michigan faculty, Department of Pathology as Assistant Professor. Dr. Diaz was a Medical Examiner in Michigan for 16 years.

Dr. Diaz has performed more than 8500 autopsies during his career and testified hundreds of times in circuit, district, and federal courts. He has also provided numerous civil depositions. Dr. Diaz is the co-author of "Spitz and Fisher Medicolegal Investigation of Death on his 5th edition.


The person specifically in charge of toxicology, who would have been responsible for determining if the stroke was triggered by some sort of poison is Dr. Samantha Tolliver:



Samantha S. Tolliver, Ph.D., is the Chief Toxicologist at the Washington, DC Office of the Chief Medical Examiner (DC OCME). She was previously employed as the Deputy Chief Toxicologist at the DC OCME and has been employed there since 2014.

Her fifteen years of toxicology experience include postmortem, driving under the influence, drug facilitated crime, pre/post exposure and work place drug testing. Her testimony experience encompasses both civil (family law) and criminal, within the States of Texas and Massachusetts, as well as the District of Columbia.

Dr. Tolliver holds a Bachelorís Degree in Chemistry from West Virginia State University. She earned both her Master of Science in Forensic Science, as well as a Doctorate in Chemistry from Florida International University.


As the municipal government of the District of Columbia is a Democratic administration, both Dr. Diaz, who is an immigrant, and Dr. Tolliver, who is an African American, were appointed to their posts by a Democratic majority government.

As you yourself have pointed out, the same office did in fact point out that the manner of death of Officer Evans was homicide. Had they reached that conclusion in the case of Officer Sicknick, they would have said so in that instance as well.

To somehow suggest that their findings ignored what could have caused Officer Sicknick's death is to paint them as either stupid or corrupt. The alternative suggestion, that a finding of the cause of the strokes would have been out of scope of their report, reflects an absence of understanding of what medical examiners do.

There are otherwise healthy people in all professions and walks of life who are walking around with undiagnosed conditions that are ticking time bombs. No one realized that discontinuing his 1988 presidential campaign probably saved Joe Biden's life when he was 46 years old and walking around with an aneurysm ready to blow, because it was a condition that nobody had a reason to look for until it happened.

I believe it is worthwhile to know whose integrity is being put on the line in these types of situations.

And I do believe it is relevant, if one believes that the ME is covering up for white supremacists, to ponder why the African American toxicologist has put her reputation on the line for that purpose.

That is why I interject that. Explain why these people are covering for white supremacists.




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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 09:15 AM

25. Here's the issue - when we hear "natural causes", we always tend to associate

it with someone who is very old, and the body simply appears to have "worn out", and is no longer capable of having the strength to power all essential bodily functions in terms of breathing and circulation.

In the Brian Sicknick case, I totally understand that the medical examiner can't make the conclusion that he died as the result of the poison being sprayed at him, if lethal concentrations don't exist in the tissue. But it also seems obvious that considerably less than lethal doses can trigger a serious response in some individuals, perhaps in the form of a stroke, or series of strokes.

For those of you old enough, can you recall the details of the Len Bias death? He was the top NBA draft pick for the Boston Celtics, clearly destined for stardom. Right after his draft selection, he was celebrating, and was offered and tried cocaine for the first time. There are countless people out there who've partaken in cocaine regularly over the years, and are still functioning apparently normally, but it was clearly more than his particular body could handle. That's the analogy I'm drawing with this situation.

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Response to bullwinkle428 (Reply #25)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 09:31 AM

26. Len Bias died because the cocaine he tried was

very pure which is not the usual case. Itís usually is cut only, for whatever reason, the cocaine he tried wasnít.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1986-06-25-sp-20106-story.html%3f_amp=true

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Response to Phoenix61 (Reply #26)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 10:34 AM

29. Len Bias would have made the Celtics great

Bird and MacHale with Bias off the bench for a year then Bias wi the Bird and McHale getting a little more rest. The Chief in the middle, they would have been amazing. Thirty years later, I still miss Len Bias as a Celtic. I was him at Cole a few times, just amazing.

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Response to bullwinkle428 (Reply #25)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 09:36 AM

28. If your point is correct, the ME would say so


There is obviously a lot of bullshit that people believe about medical examiners:

"But it also seems obvious that considerably less than lethal doses can trigger a serious response in some individuals, perhaps in the form of a stroke, or series of strokes."

The ME would be able to determine whether the strokes were triggered by a less than lethal dose of a toxic substance.

How fucking stupid do you think they are?

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Response to DanieRains (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 03:19 PM

32. Well technically speaking, poisons naturally kills life on this planet, including humans.

I think it was a bizarre claim for the Medical Examiner to make.

it's almost like insisting that George Floyd died from drug overdose, and hypertension and carbon monoxide poisoning.

None of those factors are relevant to the moment that Floyd died of oxygen deprivation or asphyxia, affected by the knee to the back of the neck.

If George Floyd was extremely inebriated by alcohol, and was shot in the head with a bullet to the brain or even straight through the heart, we don't say he died because of levels of alcohol or hypertension.

There has to be an investigative review of this report, period.

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