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Sat Apr 17, 2021, 06:39 PM

How to Stop the Gun Carnage....A Proposal:

Yes, I know this cannot pass, it is ..".A Proposal "

....Federal Program to Turn In Guns..
1.Proof of ownership of gun. ...you get $100 to $200...depending on what Congress decides..

2.Any old gun turned in ..............$25 to $50........depending on what Congress decides...then proof of turning in gun required.

3.Hand Guns become illegal after a certain date far into the future..

4.Federal program to register rifles and other similar weapons

5.Constitutional Amendment modifying 2nd Amendment making handguns illegal

6. Universal Background Checks..added by: MarineCombatEngineer

7. Proof of Insurance added by: jmbar2

52 replies, 1694 views

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Arrow 52 replies Author Time Post
Reply How to Stop the Gun Carnage....A Proposal: (Original post)
Stuart G Apr 17 OP
pwb Apr 17 #1
MarineCombatEngineer Apr 17 #4
pwb Apr 17 #8
MarineCombatEngineer Apr 17 #9
MarineCombatEngineer Apr 17 #2
Stuart G Apr 17 #3
MarineCombatEngineer Apr 17 #7
SoCalDavidS Apr 17 #11
MarineCombatEngineer Apr 17 #12
jmbar2 Apr 17 #5
Stuart G Apr 17 #6
Stuart G Apr 17 #10
dem4decades Apr 17 #13
doc03 Apr 17 #14
sanatanadharma Apr 17 #15
MenloParque Apr 17 #16
MarineCombatEngineer Apr 17 #17
Sienna86 Apr 17 #18
Straw Man Apr 17 #22
Polybius Apr 17 #19
WarGamer Apr 17 #20
Stuart G Apr 17 #24
Straw Man Apr 17 #21
rickyhall Apr 17 #23
Stuart G Apr 17 #25
DiamondShark Apr 18 #52
Initech Apr 17 #26
Stuart G Apr 17 #27
NickB79 Apr 17 #28
Stuart G Apr 18 #29
NickB79 Apr 18 #49
SYFROYH Apr 18 #30
MarineCombatEngineer Apr 18 #31
Stuart G Apr 18 #32
SYFROYH Apr 18 #34
Humanist_Activist Apr 18 #35
MarineCombatEngineer Apr 18 #36
Humanist_Activist Apr 18 #38
MarineCombatEngineer Apr 18 #39
Humanist_Activist Apr 18 #40
MarineCombatEngineer Apr 18 #41
Humanist_Activist Apr 18 #42
MarineCombatEngineer Apr 18 #44
Humanist_Activist Apr 18 #45
FakeNoose Apr 18 #37
Humanist_Activist Apr 18 #43
YMB Apr 18 #46
Humanist_Activist Apr 18 #48
YMB Apr 18 #50
SYFROYH Apr 18 #47
SYFROYH Apr 18 #33
Amishman Apr 18 #51

Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Sat Apr 17, 2021, 06:45 PM

1. There must be a lot of widows with unlicensed guns

and children of lawful licensed owners who have passed. Some check could be put on that. That is a lot of unlicensed owners maybe giving them away to who knows who?

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Response to pwb (Reply #1)

Sat Apr 17, 2021, 06:48 PM

4. Are you aware that in most of the country,

there is no license to own?
In my state of AZ, there is no license to own, no registering of firearms and no license to carry, open or concealed.

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Response to MarineCombatEngineer (Reply #4)

Sat Apr 17, 2021, 06:57 PM

8. Most of the country but not the population.

There are a lot of blue state gun owners that welcome change and are not NRA members. It is a broad group of Americans not just the vocal gun nut wing.

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Response to pwb (Reply #8)

Sat Apr 17, 2021, 07:00 PM

9. You are correct.

I don't own, nor want, any firearms in either my home or my truck, it's a personal choice for me after 35 years in the military, however, I have no problem with private ownership of firearms with more regulations than what we have now.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Sat Apr 17, 2021, 06:46 PM

2. Yeah,

good luck getting that passed into law, which, btw, would quite likely be struck down by the Supreme Court before the ink even dried.

I realize it's just a proposal, but it has zero chance of becoming law and would be widely ignored, even rural and suburban Sheriff/Police Dept. would probably ignore it.

We can't even get universal background checks, or longer waiting periods passed, what makes you think that this would ever become law?

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Response to MarineCombatEngineer (Reply #2)

Sat Apr 17, 2021, 06:48 PM

3. OK..Then start with ..."Universal Background Checks"..then move up..

Universal Background Checks added to the proposal.

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Response to Stuart G (Reply #3)

Sat Apr 17, 2021, 06:51 PM

7. I like it.

Gotta start somewhere, but the goal of outlawing handguns in this country will never come to pass, it just isn't going to happen and I would oppose such a law even though I have no desire to own any firearms.

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Response to MarineCombatEngineer (Reply #7)

Sat Apr 17, 2021, 07:06 PM

11. Then The Media Needs To Stop Covering The Day To Day Mass Shootings

It's no longer news when it happens every single day, and will continue happening every single day for years and decades to come.

Such a great country we are.

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Response to SoCalDavidS (Reply #11)

Sat Apr 17, 2021, 07:09 PM

12. Well, there is that old media saying,

if it bleeds, it leads.

The more sensational the event, the more media coverage it gets.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Sat Apr 17, 2021, 06:49 PM

5. Need proof of insurance

Enough to cover any accidental death, maiming, medical bills, and lifelong care if permanently disabled by said gun.

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Response to jmbar2 (Reply #5)

Sat Apr 17, 2021, 06:50 PM

6. I would add that too...& I will

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Sat Apr 17, 2021, 07:05 PM

10. Gun Violent Deaths in U.S.A.

2020 Saw More Gun Deaths in the US Than Any Year in Over ...

https://www.businessinsider.com › Politics ›

Mar 24, 2021 — There were 19379 gun violence deaths in the US in 2020, according to data from the nonprofit Gun Violence Archive.

That is about half the number of deaths by cars...Cars have lots of safety devises. We need to attach that list in Original Post to Guns...(as safety devises)

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Sat Apr 17, 2021, 07:17 PM

13. Make the insurance companies liable for those they insure. And insurance be mandatory.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Sat Apr 17, 2021, 07:29 PM

14. I agree with number 6 universal background checks the rest NO nt

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Sat Apr 17, 2021, 07:42 PM

15. This proposal to 'nothing will ever change' proponents

Things change. You are objectively wrong!
I propose that the moral-American majority will reach 'no more 2nd amendment blood sacrifices' fed-up-ness .
I have given up thinking gun apologists ever will.

The will of moral-majority Americans will win.
Not soon enough but as sure as gravity this will happen.

Or, an alternative American future may arise wherein each child born into the world will inherit a nasty, mean, brutish, and short lifestyle; it will no longer be the constitutional USA.

It is all politics and ethics and the moral tipping point is in flesh and blood, not in magazine and clip quips.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Sat Apr 17, 2021, 07:45 PM

16. Buybacks

If this country is serious about getting firearms off the street it will need to offer more than $25-50 for any old firearm. Start with MSRP and you will see more firearms turned in other than old rusty revolvers, Hi Points, crap eastern bloc pistols made in the 70s and 80s that no one wants. I work among high level seniors engineers who brag about their AR10 and AR15 builds worth up to $10,000. No one is turning high end quality pistols and rifles to those silly buybacks.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Sat Apr 17, 2021, 07:53 PM

17. Also add longer waiting time, cooling off period,

to give investigators more time to complete the background check, especially if there is a red flag raised.

Also, 100% prosecution rate by the Feds for anyone falsely filling out form 4473 with severe consequences for lying on a Federal document.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Sat Apr 17, 2021, 08:15 PM

18. License required and insurance required

That would help.

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Response to Sienna86 (Reply #18)

Sat Apr 17, 2021, 09:55 PM

22. My state licenses all ownership of handguns. It has since 1911.

Last edited Sun Apr 18, 2021, 05:40 PM - Edit history (2)

That doesn't seem to have had much of an impact on criminal violence, which tends to ebb and flow in inverse proportion to the economy.

Insurance would be cheap because (a) accidents with firearms are exceedingly rare compared to, say, automobiles, and (b) insurers would not pay out on claims resulting from criminal activity.

https://www.wnj.com/Publications/Unintended-Consequences-How-a-Criminal-Plea-C#:~:text=The%20exclusion%20is%20simple%20and,defend%20or%20indemnify%20your%20client.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Sat Apr 17, 2021, 09:19 PM

19. None of which will ever have a remote possibility of passing

n/t

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Sat Apr 17, 2021, 09:35 PM

20. hmmmm

1) No one will give away a $1000 gun for $200

2) Buyback programs only procure the "junkiest" guns... see #1

3) Needs Constitutional Amendment

4) How? Door to door?

5) Correct

6) Definitely

7) Yup

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Response to WarGamer (Reply #20)

Sat Apr 17, 2021, 10:25 PM

24. So 5,6, & 7 are possible....There was a time long time ago...that I thought..

certain events were impossible...

Here they are: A. Man on the Moon
.................... B. That I would own & know how to operate an expensive, complicated, "computer"
.....................C. That an Afro-American would be elected President of the U.S.A.
.....................D That Donald Trump would be elected President of the U.S.A.
.................... E. That I would have a library of video tapes..
.................... F. I would have a car with a back up TV..to show who is coming from the rear..
.................... G. That I would have a car with a disc recorder.
................... H That the entire country would be infected with a disease that would kill 500,000...
(is that correct?)
......................................etc. etc. etc. etc.

.....................Anything is possible...yes anything, Details can be worked out...but I repeat...............
.....................Anything is possible...including circumstances in the Original Post...

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Sat Apr 17, 2021, 09:46 PM

21. Oh yeah!

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Sat Apr 17, 2021, 10:20 PM

23. I'd like to see a ban on military weapons, even those disguised as civilian, like the AR15.

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Response to rickyhall (Reply #23)

Sat Apr 17, 2021, 10:27 PM

25. Maybe that will happen, & Anything Can Happen.

The TV once said, "When you least expect it, You will be on Candid Camera"

so.............I was once on Candid Camera....a long time ago..across the network in 1964.....??

So..............ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN, EVEN GUN CONTROL CAN HAPPEN

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Response to rickyhall (Reply #23)

Sun Apr 18, 2021, 04:28 PM

52. I would also like to see a ban on military weapons...

including those carried by our civilian law enforcement personnel.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Sat Apr 17, 2021, 10:46 PM

26. Raise the age limit to own a gun to 25 or even 30

No one 18 or under should be allowed to own any sort of firearm.

Also you should have to pass a test and carry a license with you to operate a gun, the same way you would with a car or any motorized vehicle.

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Response to Initech (Reply #26)

Sat Apr 17, 2021, 10:52 PM

27. Not a bad idea..but ...raising the age won't happen, and yes pass a test and carry a

license when you operate a gun, could happen..but those are state laws that could happen, but
unlikely will change much. Lots of people will still carry guns without a license..Why?....
The Constitution Says So, that is why...

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Sat Apr 17, 2021, 10:56 PM

28. DC v. Heller specifically ruled that handgun ownership is an individual right

You'd have a better, but still very small, chance at banning rifles.

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Response to NickB79 (Reply #28)

Sun Apr 18, 2021, 09:46 AM

29. Often, the Supreme Court over rules a previous ruling...There are many examples of this.

But, in order to save lives and protect people, the court could define the 2nd Amendment in a way
that protects the population from violence. Something like: "Owning a handgun is legal as long
as it is registered and the owner is qualified to own one...(whatever that means )
....So many examples of these over rules for the growth and good of the nation and its people..So, as
stated earlier....Anything Can Happen, the good and the bad..

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Response to Stuart G (Reply #29)

Sun Apr 18, 2021, 04:00 PM

49. Unless Biden expands the court, that's a pipe dream for the next 20+ yr

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Sun Apr 18, 2021, 10:02 AM

30. I'd have a hard time voting for anyone who advocated for all this.

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Response to SYFROYH (Reply #30)

Sun Apr 18, 2021, 10:03 AM

31. As would I. nt

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Response to SYFROYH (Reply #30)

Sun Apr 18, 2021, 10:08 AM

32. I understand your concern, but do you understand ............

.........the concern of those who lost loved ones to needless shootings that might be stopped
by all these ......."regulations"

Let's say the number of shootings and accidental gun deaths...were reduced ...

by 50 percent due to regulations in Original Post....Would that be worth it?...Just asking

Also, if you lost a loved one due to a needless shooting, would you feel the same?

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Response to Stuart G (Reply #32)

Sun Apr 18, 2021, 11:12 AM

34. Here's a long answer, but at least I will answer your questions.



I believe that keeping and bearing arms is a protected Civil Liberty as are the other liberties in the Bill of Rights. The feds interest in this liberty was to ensure a militia could be drawn from the people. Handguns are commonly used by police, militias, and military forces. They are legitimate self-defense weapons.

I consider gun bans to be egregious violations of that liberty.

I do support regulations short of bans as long as they are not so difficult or expensive that it in effect denies the liberty to the poor.

I feel similarly about free speech, practicing religion, privacy, self incrimination, etc.

To answer your question, no, it wouldn’t be worth it, but I think we can still do other things to reduce gun violence.

Im for universal background checks, raising the age requirement, red flag laws with a chance to rebut, if it wasn’t expensive or difficult, I would be ok with registration of rifles with detachable mags.

But if we want to get anything passed we have to take all gun bans off the table. IMHO

I’ve known people who were shot and some died, but no one in my immediate family.

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Response to SYFROYH (Reply #34)

Sun Apr 18, 2021, 11:16 AM

35. See, this position is just batshit insane to me.

 

I can and have, so far, gone my entire life without ever having a need to own any type of gun, and I have no desire to, Free speech, Free Religion, Privacy, Self-incrimination, etc. I have all used since hitting the age of majority, as has most Americans. Owning guns should not be considered a civil right, it does little to nothing to protect us, and I have to ask, from what? Evidence on how effective they are as self-defense weapons is dubious at best. So basically it amounts to being a legally protected, extremely dangerous hobby, no more, no less.

ON EDIT: In general I would be supportive of nearly any method that radically reduces the circulation of handguns and semi-autos in this country. That will go a long way to ensuring that gun deaths are reduced.

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #35)

Sun Apr 18, 2021, 11:25 AM

36. It may seem bat shit crazy to you,

but it makes perfect sense to millions of American citizens.

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Response to MarineCombatEngineer (Reply #36)

Sun Apr 18, 2021, 11:35 AM

38. So? That doesn't make it any less crazy...

 

Look, I don't give a shit if you own a 30.06 bolt-action for shooting deer or going to the range, I do give a shit if you carry around a 1911 because you are paranoid. One doesn't really endanger others, and the likelihood of it being used against the owner and/or larger public is nil, not so much for the handgun.

Also, while Americans seem to be peculiar in supporting gun ownership, most of them don't own guns.

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #38)

Sun Apr 18, 2021, 11:38 AM

39. ...

So? That doesn't make it any less crazy...


And again, it may sound crazy to you, but to millions of American's, it makes perfect sense.

Also, while Americans seem to be peculiar in supporting gun ownership, most of them don't own guns.

And I'm one of those that does not own a firearm, but I do support the private ownership of firearms with reasonable regulations.

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Response to MarineCombatEngineer (Reply #39)

Sun Apr 18, 2021, 11:46 AM

40. But why, what use is handgun ownership?

 

What rights are being protected here? Please bear in mind that we have nearly 20,000 deaths from guns every year, most are suicides. Supporting gun ownership is like supporting owning lawn darts, and they caused far fewer deaths. And please don't mention self-defense, largely speaking the evidence for that is, at best, scant, and at worse fabricated or greatly exaggerated. Overall owning a gun in the home actually puts the lives of the gunowner and family in danger. Why support it?

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #40)

Sun Apr 18, 2021, 11:49 AM

41. Look, you and I are never going to agree on the private ownership of handguns,

I believe what I believe and you believe what you believe and let's just leave it at that and go about our merry way.

Have a great Sunday.

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Response to MarineCombatEngineer (Reply #41)

Sun Apr 18, 2021, 11:55 AM

42. I just don't understand, I used to have your position, but when I looked at the studies and...

 

evidence, I realized that holding such beliefs propagates beliefs that lead to inaction, which ultimately harm the public at large.

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #42)

Sun Apr 18, 2021, 11:59 AM

44. I'm not trying to be rude or argumentative here,

but my beliefs are my beliefs and yours are yours and I respect your beliefs, even if I don't agree with them.

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Response to MarineCombatEngineer (Reply #44)

Sun Apr 18, 2021, 12:07 PM

45. Again, it is a hobby, not a necessity, hell I'd damn near support a constitutional right to own...

 

cars in this country more than one to own guns, at least cars are useful if extremely inefficient and dangerous in the wrong hands.

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #35)

Sun Apr 18, 2021, 11:34 AM

37. Perfectly stated and well thought out

I do not believe the Constitution guarantees any private citizens the right to own lethal weapons and then with a shrug and sarcastic side-eye, we agree to call it a "well-regulated militia."

It's an incorrect - and willfully blind - interpretation of the 2nd Amendment and it has been made by parties who have a vested interest in the outcome. Private citizens are not a militia and there's nothing "well-regulated" about any of this.

The gun-madness MUST end and we must start now. I think banning the AK-47s is a good place to start, but we certainly can't end it there.

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Response to FakeNoose (Reply #37)

Sun Apr 18, 2021, 11:59 AM

43. To be honest, I don't hold much hope for the Supreme Court, I just put the idea out...

 

there that banning certain classes of guns is a good idea and necessary to further reduce firearm deaths in this country. I know people love to focus on Assault Rifles, but to be frank, I find it more useful to talk about handguns, which take the lion's share of death compared to any other class of weapon. Semi-Auto rifles, of which AK-47s are a part, would be next, of course. If anything, we should have a gun ownership regime similar to Canada or Japan. Banning is probably the wrong word, but severely curtailing ownership and circulation of said firearms should be the ultimate goal.

ON EDIT: Generally speaking the 2nd Amendment is a atavism that should be overturned, no more useful than the 3rd.

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #43)

Sun Apr 18, 2021, 12:47 PM

46. There is a rather massive difference between those two countries though

in terms of acquiring a gun. Its not that difficult to get a gun in Canada, but its almost impossible to get one in Japan and takes years of work to even get a single shot hunting rifle or shotgun even if you actually need it. Canada despite that doesnt have much gun crime outside of the usual problems (only heavily dialed back in comparison to the US) largely because of a host of other things non-gun related (which i really believe the US should focus more on instead of BAN BAN BAN).

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Response to YMB (Reply #46)

Sun Apr 18, 2021, 01:57 PM

48. Handgun ownership is severely restricted in Canada, that's what I'm talking about...

 

I generally don't care about rifles or shotguns too much, because they only take up a tiny percentage of gun deaths.

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #48)

Sun Apr 18, 2021, 04:07 PM

50. My bad

but its also not as bad (or good) as youd think. In terms of handguns the difference in Canada to buy a handgun is around 4-5 months with all the process' assuming the major city someone lives in hasnt outright banned them. And after that is done you dont have to go through the entire thing again if you want to buy more (still might take a few weeks though for each one after). In japan the process is...0. Handguns are banned.

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Response to FakeNoose (Reply #37)

Sun Apr 18, 2021, 12:59 PM

47. In my view the people and the militia are not the same thing.

The people is all free citizens/residents some of whom can choose the keep and bear arms and the militia can be drawn from the people with arms. The unorganized militia would be a subset of the people and is still defined legally, I believe.

That’s why the two terms exist in the 2nd Amendment.

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Response to Stuart G (Original post)


Response to Stuart G (Original post)

Sun Apr 18, 2021, 04:22 PM

51. Some major 5th amendment issues there

Mandatory buybacks for less than real value would almost certainly be a violation of the takings clause of the 5th.

Buyback would have to be at or above street value. In order to be effective it would need to be well above street value. Offer $2k for a $1k gun and all but the zealots will be tempted.

That's ignoring the point that I do not see any avenue to passing it or surviving legal challenge with the current courts.

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