James Carville worried Dems set to lose over social issues

[Yorkie Mom]

James Carville Worries Identity Politics Will Become a ‘Drag’ on Democrats: ‘English Faculty at Amherst Has too Much Power in This Party’

Longtime Democratic strategist James Carville is worried his party could lose ground in upcoming elections due to its position on social issues.

“I got to tell you, I’m a supportive, ardent Democrat, passion and everything, but the English faculty at Amherst has too much power in this party,” Carville said in an interview this week with former Weekly Standard editor Bill Kristol. “They really do. And they come up with all of these different things, and when people see that, they don’t like it because it’s not what their life is.”

He cited efforts to defund the police as a chief example of what he founded concerning, saying it had been “a terrible drag” on Democratic candidates, as well as “cancel culture” and identity politics.

“I don’t know of a single person that thinks of themselves as a ‘person of color,'” Carville said. “I really don’t. I had Ruben Gallego, who’s a Democratic congressman from Arizona, and we did much better in Arizona than we did in Texas or Florida, and he said, ‘I’ve never heard anybody use the word LatinX.’ And that’s just not the way people talk. It’s not what they — It’s just not the way.”

More: https://www.mediaite.com/news/james-carville-worries-identity-politics-will-become-a-drag-on-democrats-english-faculty-at-amherst-has-too-much-power-in-this-party/

[Yorkie Mom]

1. Bring in the new blood

"... However, he suggested that older Democrats would become a drag on the party if they didn’t begin stepping down from top positions — and named Reps. Mikie Sherrill (D-NJ), Conor Lamb (D-PA), and former Rep. Katie Hill (D-CA) as young Democrats he liked.

“What happens is the speaker’s 80-something, the party is 80-something and there’s just a lot of — the committee, chairs, there’s a lot of baggage there, and they’re going to have to … do something to let this young talent shift up because they’ll start losing races,” Carville said.

[brush]

6. Biden is president and he wouldn't be if it wasn't for Rep. Clayburn...

who is an 80-something. There are committee chair seats and sub-committee chairs that up-and-comers can serve in, just as those before them did.

We've done all right in '18 and '20 and so far with Biden. Things come when the time delivers them.

I have no idea how Carville got off on this tangent about Amherst faculty having too much influence. Since when? Whoever heard of that? Since he says he doesn't know any he needs to meet some Black people and other POCs who have been the driving force behind Dem victories lately.

What the hell is he talking about?

[greenjar_01]

2. Oooof

“I don’t know of a single person that thinks of themselves as a ‘person of color,'” Carville said.

I'll bet he doesn't!

The idea that "identity issues" are being driven by "English faculty at Amherst" rather than working class black and brown people is such a clownish slander that only James Carville could come up with it.

[Yorkie Mom]

5. So, you think "identity issues" are being driven by the working class?

That's not what I'm seeing/hearing at all with people I know of various backgrounds and am curious as to what you think and why.

[Elessar Zappa]

9. I worked with many minorities.

All were working class and all would have identified as POC.

[Yorkie Mom]

11. Thanks! Do you think they are driving the identity issues?

It seems to be upper class white people from my experience.

[uponit7771]

29. Yes, no doubt. BLM isn't driven by upper class white people and neither are most of the ...

... issues with Asians and LatinX

[PurgedVoter]

166. You are quite right, Carveille needs to woke up.

I loved Carville, I read his book, over time I changed my opinion. Carville is DLC and his wife is a Republican operative. He is part of the pundit class old style third wheel that will shoot us in the foot every time. Worse than being willing to sell out the party, he would participate in having the party sell out. If we listen to his advice we will become irrelevant and Republican light.

His voice at one time sounded like a call to bring in a better day. Now he is pure old school pundit.

[AZProgressive]

92. We wouldn't have so many problems if upper class white people cared about these issues

If anything it is them that would rather see these issues go away.

[greenjar_01]

12. Do I think working class black women recognize that they face multiple forms of discrimination

Based on their being black, and women, and working class, and in some cases LGBTQ, and in other cases immigrants? Is that the questions you're asking? Do I think working class trans kids recognize the danger and discrimination they face and are driving the conversations on trans issues? Is that what you're asking? I don't know what "identity issues" are in the way Carville or you are using the term, but I do know working class people are deeply aware and activist on intersectional power, and that James Carville orchestrated one of the most cynical and racist political strategies ever in the attacks on Sistah Soulja and later Obama, so I don't really give a shit what he or people who follow him think.

[Yorkie Mom]

20. That wasn't the question at all...

[greenjar_01]

22. That was absolutely the question

You just don't like the answer.

[Yorkie Mom]

27. So glad you can jump into my mind and read it.

Jeez!

[LanternWaste]

182. Ten bucks says you fail to see the irony in your having expressed that...

[muriel_volestrangler]

62. But you call them Black, not "people of color", or "women of color"

so you use the same terminology that Carville does, and I think he's saying that's what most Black people use themselves.

[Nexus2]

71. As a 'person of color', I've never met another one in RL that referred to themselves like that.

Personally, I don't really like the term.

[lagomorph777]

169. Where is "RL?"

[Nexus2]

183. Its short for Real Life, offline reality [nt]

[lagomorph777]

186. Oh, I had forgotten about that.

Been quarantined so long I might as well live inside the computer, like in Tron.

[Withywindle]

165. THIS is what people like Carville mean when they sneer at "identity politics"

Carville is trying to kiss up to bigots who don't want to admit that they're bigots. "Identity issues" and "identity politics" are terms used to discredit equality and liberation movements, period.

[Withywindle]

162. I think "identity issues" are being driven by people of various identities.

Black people are tired of being shat on for being Black. LGBTQ+ people are tired of being shat on for being LGBTQ+. Immigrants are tired of being shat on for being immigrants. Pretty much everyone who's not a straight white Christian man is tired of the face of power and wealth being nothing but straight white Christian men.

Identity matters because when you look at a picture of 46 people who've held the highest office, there's not a single female face and only one Black one. Hell, Biden is only the second Catholic.

I know lots of people in working/lower-middle-class, of all sorts of identities, mostly Gen X, younger Boomers, and older Millennials, and the only ones who sneer at "identity politics" are in two categories: 1) straight white vaguely leftish dudes who come from pretty bourgeois backgrounds and think they're the center of the world, and 2) straight-up neofascists.

Everyone else is aware of the realities on the ground, which is that identity absolutely fucking matters when you get pulled over for a "traffic stop" or you can lose your job for having a picture of your spouse on your desk or you're afraid of going to the ER because you might get asked for papers you don't have.

[Caliman73]

175. There is a difference between "driving" and identifying.

Academics study and define concepts while the people on the ground tend to be a mix of academics (students usually) and non-academics (working, middle class, and poor people).

The term People of Color was coined in academia, but it is in common use. This separation of and naming of "academic elites" that are somehow separate from the rest of the population, plays into the right wing framing of the issue in my opinion.

I agree that slogans like "defund the police" have a great chance of being misinterpreted, either honestly, and in right wing circles in a clearly deliberate way; and present challenges to people trying to make fundamental and systemic changes.

I think that funding that goes to police right now, would be better spent on community groups, mental health, social workers, housing, jobs, etc... that attack the root of the problems that drive crime. That money is better in the hands of people who engage in a prosocial approach to problems rather than a punitive approach like policing. Drug addicts should be in treatment, not in jail. Homeless people should be in housing and re-integrated in to society, not harassed and told to leave the only corner they can stake out a claim to with their tent or shopping cart. That does not however, fit on a bumper sticker.

People call themselves Black, Latino or Hispanic, Asian, or Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc... they call themselves what they feel they are. I have heard people of various backgrounds use the term People of Color.

The term "Identity Politics" is also a right wing framing. As if White Identity politics isn't a thing. To many, it is the only thing and they do not like when Black people, Latinos, Asians or other non-majority groups have specific grievances and policies that they would like to see, in order to make their lives a bit better. During the heyday of the Union movement, there were forces from within (White people) who didn't want to expand benefits to Black and Latino workers. They faced discrimination from their own Labor brothers, as did women. You cannot have politics without "Identity". Thinking that those politics cannot be driven by working class people, I think, does a disservice to working class people, as if they cannot fully understand themselves in the full context of society, like it takes a college degree to understand that you may be discriminated along the lines of multiple identities. They may not have the fancy language for it, but they sure as hell feel it and they sure as hell fight it.

[Celerity]

16. +10000000000000000

[gratuitous]

3. Policies that enjoy majority approval across the board

Yeah, that will really be a drag on the party. Mustn't do anything popular that addresses societal shortcomings until the Republicans are fully and unreservedly on board.

James, you and Bill Kristol are cordially invited:

[Doremus]

4. Says a man who hasn't been relevant in 30 years.

It's well past time for the party to embrace the needs of the people. Lord knows Carville and his ilk have far more in common with billionaires and the rest of the oligarchy.

[Kid Berwyn]

70. Amen.

Guess who works for Phil Gramm at UBS?

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1768396

[Withywindle]

163. This. Why are we still listening to this guy?

He's doing a talk-show shtick.

The Democratic base is largely composed of people who, in one way or another, are in the groups of people who get accused of "identity politics" when they/we assert that we're important, our lives matter, our issues matter. People of color (which is a blanket term for all people who are not white - and yes, they're all distinct groups with distinct issues, but it IS useful to have one non-negative term for that, because there's enough in common to build coalitions), LGBTQ+, immigrants, working poor, women. People like Carville want to shit on activists for equality while coddling up a dwindling white-male-centric vote. Which is a losing game.

[stillcool]

7. Noise.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

8. Huh, sounds just like the kind of shit Republicans say.

[Voltaire2]

10. Lizard man should go away. Maybe hang out with Lizard Wife more. NT.

[SoonerPride]

14. OK for real, you made me laugh out loud

So thank you for that.

[A Clearing]

86. +1.

[Mike Nelson]

13. Agree...

... Democrats need to push how they want to fund the police. They should also remind voters they are against killing police officers, crushing their heads in doorways, and taking out their eyes. Democrats should also tell voters they are against "Cancel Culture" and "Identify Politics" favored by Republicans. We do not "cancel" Coca-Cola for supporting Democracy! We strengthen our well-regulated police force by getting rid of racists!

[uponit7771]

31. DTP wasn't the onus of loss of seats bad campaigning was. We can fool ourserlves into thinking

... a slogan no one on the left had much to do with lost us that seats but that sounds cultish

[caber09]

78. Sorry you couldn't be more wrong..DTP killed our side..

It was a stupid slogan that most Americans don't support...please tell me dems weren't pinned down for it when AOC was literally constantly saying dtp means dtp in the weeks leading up to election..it completely hurt us and cost us a lot of seats...but don't believe me...just ask biden Obama clyburn etc...it cost us seats everywhere...if you can't see that and continue to push that narrative we will get creamed in 2022

[caber09]

94. What are you talking about? Biden was not for DTP...

Thankfully he came out against it...had Biden not distanced himself from DTP immediately..we would be living in a Second trump admin and we would've lost the house and not won the senate...but now you don't care if dems win or lose? DTP was the DUMBEST slogan we could possible run on...it's a losing issue...reform the police is a winning issue..but you don't care about winning...most of us do.

[AZProgressive]

101. I care about fixing problems in policing

I studied the issue for the longest time and defund the police is the best solution that addresses various issues including the fact that police are tasked with doing too much which is something police also complain about. I heard "reform the police" for a long time.

I voted for Biden in Arizona and I support DTP. Also BLM helped register voters in Atlanta, Philadelphia, and Milwaukee. I think BLM helped us win the election.

New Toolkit Tallies Up Victories and Summarizes Strategies to Defund the Police

(Snip)

In the wake of the right-wing white supremacist storming of the Capitol and attempted coup on January 6, 2021, the demand to defund police is more urgent than ever. There is growing evidence that many federal, state and local law enforcement officers, including Capitol Police, participated in, facilitated and condoned the events of January 6th — including video footage of Capitol police removing barricades to allow white supremacists onto Capitol grounds, standing aside as they entered the building while denying entry to journalists, taking selfies with insurrectionists and directing people who intended legislators harm to their offices. The events of January 6th were not a justification for increased policing, they were a perfect encapsulation of the reality that policing does not keep us safe — including from white supremacists.

Our response to white supremacist violence cannot be to pour still more resources into police who have repeatedly been shown to participate in and condone it, especially as the pandemic claims record numbers of lives each day and the unprecedented economic crisis deepens, leaving more and more people at risk of eviction, hunger, and violence. Nor can it be to give police more power to fight “domestic terrorism,” which will predictably be used against the very same communities currently targeted by police — for instance, a number of states have already used the attempted coup and threats of more white supremacist violence to resurrect laws first introduced to suppress #BlackLivesMatter protests. It is more imperative than ever to reduce the funding, power, weaponry, and reach of law enforcement agencies that have made it abundantly clear through their actions leading up to and on January 6th that what they are committed to protecting is a white supremacist status quo, not the safety of Black and Brown communities.

The demand to defund police did not arise in a vacuum. It is rooted in a long legacy of challenges to white supremacist violence, and demands to end institutions created to control, regulate, disempower, and suppress Black communities, and for collective investment in meeting community needs through collective care. It echoes the demands of the Black Panther Party’s 10-point platform for Black Liberation: “We want an immediate end to POLICE BRUTALITY and MURDER of Black people…. We want land, bread, housing, education, clothing, justice and peace.” It is rooted in a central demand of the Movement for Black Lives’ Vision for Black Lives, first launched in 2016 in the wake of the Ferguson Uprising: “Invest/Divest — We demand investments in the education, health and safety of Black people, instead of investments in the criminalizing, caging, and harming of Black people. We want investments in Black communities, determined by Black communities, and divestment from exploitative forces including prisons, fossil fuels, police, surveillance and exploitative corporations.” The BREATHE Act, birthed by the Movement for Black Lives in 2020 in response to legislation and policy proposals advancing superficial reforms that do nothing to address the root causes and systemic nature of police violence, represents a federal legislative articulation of the Invest/Divest framework.

Over the past six months, organizers across the country have won significant victories in campaigns to reallocate funds from bloated police department budgets to meet community needs. They extracted over $840 million from police departments, and secured investments of at least $160 million in communities. They removed cops from schools in over 25 cities, saving an additional $34 million for investment in meeting student and community needs. They have engaged more people than ever in conversation around defunding police departments as a pathway to achieving genuine and lasting public safety by meeting material needs and resourcing and building community-based safety strategies, and to eventually abolishing policing altogether. They have faced and overcome significant resistance from police fraternal associations, pro-police lawmakers, and reformists whose proposals to tinker with the mechanisms of policing while leaving its foundations untouched have been wielded as a wedge to discredit their demands. They have wisely tuned out willful misrepresentations and dilutions of defund demands by political pundits and mainstream media outlets and stayed true to their vision. And they have learned valuable lessons to guide next steps in continuing campaigns to #DefundPolice.

https://truthout.org/articles/new-toolkit-tallies-up-victories-and-summarizes-strategies-to-defund-the-police/

Biden is not a local city mayor so I don't care if he supports the issue or not. If Democrats can't figure out a way to use the Insurrection, alt-right, and Boogaloo Bois (who actually kill cops) against the right they don't deserve to win. What I do know is the Republicans are an unacceptable choice for me so I have no choice but stick with the Democrats. I have no sympathy for those that choose to vote for Republicans.

[caber09]

111. Defunding the police isn't fixing policing, it's political suicide

You want to ensure republicans regaining control of everything then you'd be doing a helluva a job...how does defund the police rate in your district...I'm in ny and it's a campaign killing issue in most blue districts let along purple ones...I cannot imagine it being popular in your AZ district

[AZProgressive]

114. Biden and Democrats won the district

Despite the annoying campaign ads.

It does solve many issues and it has passed in several blue cities. Instead of sending cops to watch the homeless it is better to fund housing for the homeless, instead of sending cops for a mental health crisis it is better to send mental health professionals, it is better to treat drug addiction as a public health problem.

Mariame Kaba who wrote We Do This Til We Free Us actually lives in NYC.

[caber09]

119. Seems some of those cities are now re-funding the police

Because your experiment isn't working...the next nyc mayor will prob reverse the bs deblasio has tried here too...how does dtp stack up in your az district? I've already told you it's political suicide in my deep blue district as the surrounding districts...what about yours?

[betsuni]

99. DU is for supporters of the Democratic Party. "I don't care if Democrats win or lose anymore"?

"I'm going to stay consistent." I guess.

[caber09]

100. Yeah I was thinking samething lol

[betsuni]

106. Guess it's too much to ask to have a place free of Democrat-bashing.

[AZProgressive]

102. I voted for Biden to remove Trump

Now that Trump is gone it is no longer the "most important election of our lifetime".

[betsuni]

104. This a forum for supporters of Democrats.

Not both sides "I don't care if Democrats win or lose" or voting against Trump.

[AZProgressive]

105. I support Democrats that support defund the police

I don't say the Republicans are correct on "identity politics" (the irony being that progressives complaining about IP cost Bernie in the 2016 & 2020 primaries), "cancel culture", or their dishonest arguments on DTP and bash the left over these issues hoping it gains votes with Republicans.

The rest should get with the program and "support Democrats".

[betsuni]

107. What?

What does "the irony being that progressives complaining about IP cost Bernie in the 2016 and 2020 primaries" mean?

[AZProgressive]

109. A lot of Bernie supporters complained about identity politics

In the 2016 and the 2020 primaries which I believe cost Bernie especially in the Southeast.

I actually strongly disagreed with those Bernie supporters.

Diversity and the Weaponization of Identity Politics

Despite its success in the midterm elections, the Democratic Party continues to be divided, with one faction seeming to focus on the economic plight of working families and the other staking new claims for women and people of color. Along with important structural disadvantages, this story is part of what is allowing an unrepresentative Republican Party maintain control of most of the branches of government.

Although there are new efforts astride to point out that economic justice and racial and gender justice are two sides of the same coin, what hasn’t been made as clear is that the choice is not only a false one, but is also the result of a concerted strategy by Donald Trump and his army of right wing pundits to undermine Democrats’ success in the polls.

(Snip)

This analysis, however, is misleading in that it fails to recognize that the Democratic Party itself has adhered to, in the words of Lily Geismer and Matthew D. Lassiter, a “deliberate and long-term strategy…to favor the financial interests and social values of affluent white suburban families and high tech corporations over the priorities of unions and the economic needs of middle income and poor residents of all races.” This fixation, they conclude, “on upscale white suburbs also distorts policies and diverts resources that could generate higher turnout among nonwhite voting blocs that are crucial to the party’s fortunes and too often taken for granted.” Among many other things, for instance, it includes supporting the mortgage interest deduction and protecting educational tax shelters like 529 plans that almost exclusively benefit the upper-middle class, and that help consolidate that class’s lock on the social and economic benefits of higher education. To put it in a nutshell, the choice between diversity and economic justice is a false one; the Democratic Party fails when it cedes economic justice to the faux-populist right while also failing to improve the standard of living of many minority citizens.

https://thephilosophicalsalon.com/diversity-and-the-weaponization-of-identity-politics/

[betsuni]

154. What? That's wrong.

[Cha]

156. "Defund the Police" is a Losing Slogan! Especially

After the Capitol Policeman was killed.

I say hold the Police Accountable who are the killer cops.

[Cha]

155. So? It doesn't matter why.. we Got

Ourselves an Excellent President who is a PROGRESSIVE Democrat!!

[joetheman]

15. YES! We are the party of identity politics. We identify with honest, working men and women who

have been sidelined by racism, fascism, greed, economic and environmental injustice. If you want to call me an identity freak, call me that!

[dutch777]

17. However poorly made, there are points in what Carville is saying

Defund the Police vs. Police Reform as slogans play very differently to the average person. If we pull in 10% here but lose 30% over there, we are not going in a winning direction. And the point of how we Dems did better in AZ than TX or FL with people of color is still warping my brain as to how we can be that off the mark with what should be a strong part of our base ESPECIALLY when we have someone as awful as Trump and his minions to run against.

And as much as I love and honor Nancy P. for the good works she has done and the steady hand and cool head, the leadership gerontocracy is not inspiring to many and certainly not sustainable.

We need to get some big and powerful things legislated that help ALOT of people between now and the 2022 election or we could easily lose our majorities in the Congress and we will be f****d for 2024. We can't do everything we would love to in the window we have and if we try it will be so much more talk and not enough real change and the game will be over for all practical purposes.

[wellst0nev0ter]

23. No, what dragged down the Dems

Is that they spent too much time denying that they support defunding the police instead of being on the attack.

You let the goops define the terms of the debate, you lose.

[uponit7771]

32. THIS !!!! ☝🏾☝🏾☝🏾 OMG This !!! I've been trying to say this with too many words for months. Bad

... campaigning (IE not owning the issue, flooding a zone or being on attack with a them) loses more support than a damn slogan that very few people on the left had anything to do with.

The attack here would be to own the sentiment and send the message we're going to reform vs the MAGA Racist letting the police kill peoples children or something close.

DAMN ... I don't know how to get into peoples brains if we're NOT attacking we're losing.

MAGA Media went on the attack in 2020, they didn't lose as bad as they were supposed to

[wellst0nev0ter]

38. Exactly

The Georgia runoff is proof that the "defund the police" is NOT the kryptonite people make it out to be.

Both goop candidates flooded the airwaves with "defund the police" day in and day out.

But what did Ossoff and Warnock do?

They went socialist and promised $2,000 checks constantly and repeatedly. They didn't allow themselves to be distracted.

Voters don't vote for scared Democrats. Voters vote for strong Democrats.

[uponit7771]

41. OP Worthy 👉🏾 "Voters don't vote for scared Democrats. Voters vote for strong Democrats."

[smirkymonkey]

67. +1000

[oasis]

191. Stacey Abrams gets credit for the Georgia success. She nixes dtp nt

[betsuni]

199. +1

[caber09]

205. +1

[Demsrule86]

46. Yeah, if we followed this advice,we would have lost more seats IMHO. Most voters

want to reform the police not defund them.

[wellst0nev0ter]

59. Dems backtracked with the uniform "reform the police" spiel

And they still lost.

Sort of tells you something.

"Reform the police" is a position of weakness.

[Demsrule86]

65. Really, well 'defund the police' weakens our ability to win elections. And the GOP ran many add on

this...always a tell.

[wellst0nev0ter]

75. The Republicans will say we'll defund the police

even when it's not true.

Your response is not to bash the left. Your response is to kick the goops in the genitals.

Ossoff and Warnock won against "defund the police" because they ran on $2,000 checks. THAT should tell you something.

[Xoan]

18. Nutjob . eom

[WHITT]

19. Except

He cited efforts to defund the police as a chief example of what he founded concerning, saying it had been “a terrible drag” on Democratic candidates

I couldn't find a single Dem 2020 candidate for federal office that campaigned on 'defund the police'.

The only people falsely claiming that Dem candidates were for defunding the police were Repubs.

[demosincebirth]

24. Well, who started the "defund the police?" Republicans running for office in the last election

ran with that and look at how many House seats we lost. Some say some stupid things and don't realize the repercussions they will have at the polls on election day.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

30. Also liberals who didn't like the radical "abolish the police" message.

[uponit7771]

33. There wasn't ONE PERSON on the left who started that slogan it was the lack of national level attack

... from the left that allowed the slogan to root at all !!

If we're not attacking the right and flooding a zone with a set up theme we're losing EVERY SINGLE TIME.

The right doesn't have to be factual, their minions are irrelevant (there aren't enough of them) and will believe ANYTHING they hear.

I agree with the guy from the Atlantic; a damn slogan didn't have us winning seats that we should have it was lack of national level attack theme

[demosincebirth]

54. It started during protests that got a little out of hand and cops started cracking heads

[uponit7771]

61. Some videos I saw police crack heads with peaceful protestors

[demosincebirth]

69. Peaceful demonstrations that extend into the nite bring out

hoodlums and looters. That’s when things get messy with the cops

[tonedevil]

72. Well I observed the police...

starting the violence over and over last summer. It is rare that the protesters start things, the police just get tired of waiting for the protest to be over and begin using tear gas and rubber bullets. In my town, Sacramento, they shot obvious journalists and observers in the face with their rubber bullets. The pigs are the problem. You are blaming the wrong group.

[caber09]

80. Please stop AOC literally said dtp means dtp right before election

[betsuni]

84. Yes she did: "Defund the police means defund the police."

[uponit7771]

91. AOC started the slogan?!?! Really?!?!

[caber09]

95. Are you serious? "Dtp means dtp"

Who cares if she invented the slogan she pushed it to the hilt and it cost us.

[Sgent]

40. AOC

called for defund the police multiple times, and I think the entire squad did.

[Celerity]

56. Asked, "What does an America with defunded police look like to you?" Ocasio-Cortez responded, "It

Last edited Mon Apr 12, 2021, 05:39 AM - Edit history (1)

looks like a suburb."

Affluent white communities already live in a world where the choose to fund youth, health, housing etc more than they fund police. These communities have lower crime rates not because they have more police, but bc they have more resources to support healthy society in a way that reduces crime.

When a teenager or preteen does something harmful in a suburb (I say teen bc this is often where lifelong carceral cycles begin for Black and Brown communities), White communities bend over backwards to find alternatives to incarceration for their loved ones to "protect their future," like community service or rehab or restorative measures. Why don't we treat Black and Brown people the same way?

Why doesn't the criminal system care about Black teens' futures the way they care for White teens' futures? Why doesn't the news use Black people's graduation or family photos in stories the way they do when they cover White people (eg Brock Turner) who commit harmful crimes? Affluent White suburbs also design their own lives so that they walk through the world without having much interruption or interaction with police at all aside from community events and speeding tickets (and many of these communities try to reduce those, too!)

[Withywindle]

164. THIIISSSSSS

That's so well said, and so very true.

[Demsrule86]

47. That is untrue...prominent Democrats had defund the police on their websites and this

was used against some Democratic candidates.

[uponit7771]

60. Like who?! There was no dtp platform from democrats at best it was sympathizing with the

.. sentiment but not the action amongst 99.5% of democrats.

No one can point to five democrats who ran on that nationality.

DTP waa made up MAGA media qrap that was left out unanswered, ie bad campaigning from dems not answering the stupidity or owning the sentiment

[Demsrule86]

64. Google is your friend... I will not post it...as the lawmakers have removed this.

But google and you will see plenty of 'Defund the police'. This was a mistake and I think it affected House races in more moderate to conservative districts...I pray we hold the House and the Senate in 22...it is a tossup.

[uponit7771]

66. Not from democrats running as a platform it wont, its false to claim that dems made DTP a part of

... the 2020 platform, they didn't.

I have googled the phrase and it wasn't part of the DNC platform and like I said in the previous post few if any ran on it.

It was a kGQP attribution to dems and the fact that I'm telling people on DU that it wasn't part of the 2020 DNC platform and few totally ran on the action means the kGQP was successful.

Democrats need a messaging / feedback infrastructure that exceeds the kGQP instead of blaming slogans that no one ran on for losses in 2020

[caber09]

81. Again please stop lying AOC etc literally campaigned on it

[uponit7771]

90. AOC is the DNC platform or are you just responding to my pay and not reading them?

[caber09]

96. She campaigned on it, along with many others..

It dragged us down..it was not on the platform but she acted like it was and it should be. When she speaks the media makes it seem like she speaks for all of us when she doesn't even speak for most of us...I'm from a very deep blue district two over from her in nyc she wouldn't win dog catcher there, she's toxic on long island and the other nyc suburbs...you wanna follow her over the cliff go for it, I'd rather avoid seeing the trumpers regain power

[uponit7771]

108. Good, we're agreeing it was not on the platform and "acting" is subjective at best ...

... because agreeing with a sentiment doesn't mean you agree with the actions to get to the solution.

When she speaks the media makes it seem like she speaks for all of us when she doesn't even speak for most of us

Perfect example of NOT controlling a message or working the refs or M$M that's bad campaigning ... PERIOD.

no .. no ... no,

I'm sick of the excuses ... a slogan didn't lose us 20 seats bad campaigning and messaging did.

kGQP literally and OPENLY supports terrorism during press conferences but if one or a few democrats agree with the sentiment of oppressed communities we lose 20 seats?

Reminds me of Kerry not hitting back hard, fast and merciless against the swift-boaters in 2004, letting crap float out there instead of getting caught attacking Bush on his service record.

We get a messaging / feedback infrastructure more developed than republicans or we keep getting sand kicked in our face.

No wonder Moscow Mitch can flip the country and a majority of republicans off; they've got most democrats convinced our messaging / feedback infrastructure is adequate enough to win close elections.

[caber09]

110. Yes a slogan cost us, no matter what you keep saying..

Obama Biden clyburn the nyc council and nys senate dems know more about this than you do. It cost us dearly and you want to double down on it...that's nuts! We won in 2018 with candidates more like most democrats and we lost as these seats got dragged down by your type candidates and one of the dumbest political slogans is history...I'm interested to know what district you live in...because I am from one and live near deep blue districts that defund the police and aoc fringe candidates were toxic...the district next to her just elected a pro police democrat that beat AOC endorsed opponent by 40 pts...dtp is toxic...stop peddling stuff that will cost us seats

[uponit7771]

115. FACT NOT IN DISPUTE: Dems *LACK OF RESPONSE* to a slogan that wasn't part of our platform ...

... hurt us.

Democrats nationally *DID NOT* respond to the attribution of said slogan in kind and let it sit out there like Kerry and the swift boaters did.

I'd like to make sure we can have a conversation on grounds of facts, other wise we're talking at each other.

[caber09]

117. "Dtp means dtp" political suicide and homicide to dem candidates

Around here dems fought against it, those who came out against dtp won here, those who didn't lost unless they were in a +31 district like AOC...who couldn't get elected dog catcher outside her district as I've just said all her endorsed candidates got blown out in surrounding areas over the past few years including her endorsed nyc council candidate who just lost by 40+ pts in her neighboring district a few weeks ago

[uponit7771]

121. Question: Is the whole kGQP a bunch of child trafficking assholes? If no then BINGO. The kGQP

... messaging / feedback infrastructure can make AOC the whole democratic party but we can't make Matt Gaetz the whole kGQP

and why?!

Can we not make Matt Gaetz the face of the kGQP because we're bad at slogans?

Answer me that, ...

[caber09]

122. Changing the subject attempt, interesting...

I will ask you too what district are you in and how does defund the police rate in your district??

[uponit7771]

123. Great, seeing most people here know its a sentiment and not an action like most Americans (poll)

https://morningconsult.com/2020/06/17/defund-the-police-community-programs-polling/



Also I'm not changing the subject my whole point is dems are bad at messaging and messaging is the center of campaigning.

Because we didn't have a proper feedback loop in regards to DTP it mainly just sat out there unaddressed and kGQP took that opportunity to ***FALSELY*** attribute that slogan to DNC Platform. (AOC =/ DNC)

My A1 example is the kGQP can make AOC the whole DNC with a slogan that few if any ran on and was not part of the DNC platform but we can't make a child trafficker republican the whole kGQP!?

Why not?

Thx in advance

[caber09]

124. Thanks for actually proving my point, appreciate it..

DTP is a losing slogan and losing issue...reforming the police has support. The fact that you are even here defending dtp despite "AOC not equaling DNC" also proves my point...I'm going to ask you one last time what is your district and how does dtp play out in your district? Avoiding the answer speaks volumes

[betsuni]

125. +1

[caber09]

134. This poster thinks dtp resonated well in MO 6 with R-Sam Graves as their rep?? Lol

[betsuni]

137. Huge lol.

[caber09]

141. 67%+ voted R Graves but it resonates with posters district lmao

[caber09]

147. I'm from nyc and now this poster asked if I'm from the USA lol geez pure comedy gold

[betsuni]

149. Yes.

[uponit7771]

126. Neither of us said it was a winning slogan. My claim is 1. it wasn't part of the DNC platform ...

... 2. few if any people actually made it part of their individual platforms and ran on it, 3. people in the country (ie the poll) knew it was a sentiment and not an action.

I'm going to ask you one last time what is your district and how does dtp play out in your district? Avoiding the answer speaks volumes

I've already answered in my last post

Great, seeing most people here know its a sentiment and not an action like most Americans (poll)

Now, could you answer my question I've asked twice?

Do you feel democratic party can make Matt Gaetz the face of the kGQP nationally like republicans did with AOC and DTP in your district?

thx in advance

[caber09]

127. I'll give you one bonus chance..

Since you've been wrong thus far please tell me your district and how defunding the police resonates there...let's see how it resonates in your district...the fact that you are here defending this bs proved your own point wrong that it's not a big deal and that AOC doesn't equal dnc..if you aren't willing to put your money where your mouth is then you aren't worth my time...enjoy rooting for the Rs to win back their majorities with your defund poison leading the charge...the fact that you continue to argue for it would prove the gop correct for pinning it on our side even though it's not dnc platform..due to people like you falling right into their trap and pining for defunding the police over and over again.

[uponit7771]

128. Dis 6 MO and it resonated great imho. This is the 3RD TIME I've answered that question !!

How bout you answer mine?

tia

[caber09]

129. What state? I missed where you answered it

[uponit7771]

131. MO means Missouri and I answered it in the first line the first time you asked. What about my

... question?

This is the 4th time I've asked is the DNC able to make Matt Gaetz the face of the kGQP seeing republicans were able, by your claim, to make AOC the face of DTP?

Thx in advance

[caber09]

130. Ok district 6 MO I didn't see the MO

[uponit7771]

133. The district is HEAVILY GM'd so the part I live in fell in line with the rest of the country where

... the slogan politically was horrible but the sentiment was understood.

It cost no one anything around here, to the east of me is KKKLuckerVillle where their tax burdens went up because of Trump and they STILL voted for his dumb ass.

The district level doesn't tell a lot any more because of the digital precision in gerrymandering the kGQP is able to pull off.

[caber09]

135. So it doesn't resonate in your district...you lied

You just lost ALL credibility on this, goodnight, hopefully the dems don't listen to you bec that would lead to more Rs being elected. Your R rep graves won with 67% of the vote so Dtp DOES NOT resonate in your district at all Quite the opposite geez

[uponit7771]

138. Typical of LPC, you ran from the question I asked 4 times and the district is GM'd so it only matter

... matters where I live what the sentiment was.

[caber09]

132. You think defund resonates well your rep district R- Sam Graves?

It resonates well in district 6 MO represented by Republican Sam graves? Are you kidding me?

[uponit7771]

136. ABSOLUTELY !! Especially were I live and in ST Louis but understand the district was heavily

... Gerrymandered across the state and includes rural towns which is crazy in and of itself.

So the district doesn't represent the people at all like Cleavers district does.

Either way, you're asking an opinion and were I live in urban / suburban areas it was a hit because ... as the poll showed ... people understood the sentiment.

NO ONE wanted to the police to have no money, only brain dead assholes thought that, but people didn't want to overfund organizations that weren't working with ALL communities and that was a known know ... per the poll.

Now, can I get my question answered on Gaetz, I'm more currious now what you think the DNC's ability to match the kGQP messaging is.

tia

[caber09]

139. 67%+ voted R in your district

Sure dems should tie as many Rs to Gaetz as possible..hope they do...but that doesn't change the fact that dtp is a dem killer...it does not resonate in your district nor in most blue dem districts in New York...perhaps you should get the message

[uponit7771]

140. Do you understand what gerrymandered means?! and you didn't answer the question. CAN ...

... democrats make Gaetz the face of the kGQP?

Simple yes or no

[caber09]

142. Already answered your question hope they do...

Unfortunately too many of them will have to answer questions about defunding the police on the campaign trail,most Americans are more worried about feeling safe in their own area than matt Gaetz.

[uponit7771]

144. Thank you, hope doesn't cut it. Either we can or can't and right now we ca NOT make Gaetz...

... the face of the KGQP with child molestations like republicans can with AOC and DTP because dems don't have the level of messaging / feedback infrastructure the republicans do.

That's bad campaigning ... the slogan doesn't matter.

most Americans are more worried about feeling safe in their own area than matt Gaetz.

That was most white America, where I live it's more representative of the country as a whole (per the poll) and DTP the sentiment (NOT THE ACTION) did resonate here in Sams district but we can't out vote his ass because of gerrymandering.

I never felt unsafe with people marching for justice but I do with people attacking the country to stop democracy.

Even that, we can't even make 1/6 the face of the republican party because of lack of messaging / feedback infratraucture.

We have slogans to pin the republicans with, we'll see come 22

[caber09]

143. You lied about it resonating in your area when it's the exact opposite.

[uponit7771]

145. Do you understand urban and suburban areas in a district? Are you from the US? tia

MY area of the district is urban / suburban, you understand that right?

And gerrymandering spread Sams district over the whole state including ST Louis and Kansas City...

You think those places DTP didn't resonate?

If not, I'll ask again ... are you from the US?

tia

[caber09]

146. NYC born and bred..so yes I understand urban and suburban

Am I from the us? Last I checked New York City was the place of my birth and in the United States..Now you are a comedian...you are digging a deeper hole for yourself, making yourself look worse and worse...am I from the us? Hahaha...this has gone from political suicide to just pure comedy, goodnight am I from the us hahaha.

[uponit7771]

148. Then you understand in mostly black areas DTP was popular as a sentiment, the polling even...

... showed that an in my area it was no different.

You also should understand gerrymandering and district level voting means nothing any longer in red states because they districts are sliced for the candidate and not the voters.

So Sam has a huge swath of voters that vote against him in KC and STL but he wins every time because he has rural voters that outvote us.

I'm not here to compete and you've answered my question with "... hope they do ..." in regards to painting the kGQP with Gaetz which doesn't make the mark.

If we can't paint the kGQP nationally and locally like they do us then we lose, that has nothing to do with slogans that are not part of the democratic national platform.

[caber09]

79. Come on Many dems did including bush and AOC

[AZProgressive]

88. Cori Bush and Jamaal Bowman won their primaries on this issue

It is a local city budget issue anyway.

[caber09]

97. They won in blue districts that you or I could win, come on man

[AZProgressive]

103. Blue district Democrats have every right to support local issues that matter to them

Just as much of a right Joe Manchin has to do whatever the Fuck he wants in West Virginia.

[caber09]

112. Blue district dem voters dont support defund the police in

Most places in New York let alone the rest of the country...who is your rep, what district are you in? DTP is TOXIC in my very blue district in queens nyc...it's even more toxic in blue districts and purple districts on Long Island and elsewhere in ny..how does dtp stack up in your AZ district? Are you trying to put the Rs back in power? Because that's where you are headed for

[AZProgressive]

113. I never saw New York City or the state of New York

As a hippie paradise. NYC Is known for Giuliani and Bloomberg. BTW the Democratic Party dodged a bullet with Bloomberg. He would have cost us more votes when it comes to the "stop and frisk" issue and his public comments defending the policy.

[caber09]

116. OFFS so who is your rep? How's dtp in your own district?

Bloomberg was an excellent mayor overall..have you seen what deblasio has done to nyc? the city cannot wait to rid itself of him. He is the dem version of trump whereas everything he touches turns to shit. We are lucky there is no Giuliani type here now otherwise the next mayor would be an R. Hopefully the next Dem nyc mayor is Not a deblasio disciple

[AZProgressive]

118. If you don't have a problem with "stop and frisk" that tells me everything I need to know

A Terry Stop is appropriate in limited circumstances like if there is a description of someone wearing a red shirt leaving the scene of a robbery then police can do a "stop and frisk" on someone wearing a red shirt for the police officer's safety.

Bloomberg is avoiding all scrutiny. It's time to take a long, hard look at his views
Benjamin Dixon

(Snip)

“Put those cops where the crime is, which means in minority neighborhoods … [the] unintended consequences is people say, ‘Oh, my God, you are arresting kids for marijuana that are all minorities.’ Yes, that’s true. Why? Because we put all the cops in the minority neighborhoods. Yes, that’s true. Why do we do it? Because that’s where all the crime is.” He goes on to say: “Ninety-five per cent of your murders – murderers and murder victims – fit one MO. You can just take the description, Xerox it and pass it out to all the cops.”

Not only is this data point inaccurate, but it also reflects a deeply disturbing, racist worldview that harms minority men and is based on fallacious logic and inaccurate data.

The unearthed clip provides a glimpse into his deeply held philosophies regarding young minority men as well as his governing principles. The clip demands that the mayor come forward and answer to the people he ostensibly wants to lead.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/12/bloomberg-avoiding-scrutiny-stop-frisk

[caber09]

120. Who said I was for stop and frisk? Lmao

If you are referring to Bloombergs run as mayor..stop and frisk was going on since at least the early 80s under Koch it just wasn't called that..I was and am against stop and frisk as it targeted minorities disproportionately...you still havent told me how popular dtp is in your district, please share how dtp is supported in your district when it's not in most areas of deep blue New York

[Cha]

158. Their Districts are Deep BLUE! We're

talking about Swing Districts!

[SWBTATTReg]

21. He kind of has a point, look at what happened after Obama Care, or the ACA...republicans used a

Last edited Sat Apr 10, 2021, 12:21 PM - Edit history (1)

false narrative for the most part to regain control of Congress...basically turned a pretty decent health benefit pkg. to hammer the democrats (along w/ lots of lies too about the plan's cost, issues, features, etc.). Now the ACA/Obama Care is one of the most popular pieces of legislation to come out in some time.

I don't mind going for the new pieces of legislation, such as Infra-Structure, which has been talked about endlessly, for many years. But republicans will turn literally any decent legislation, with a proven need, into 'Disaster' and 'costs too much', etc.

The republicans revealed their hypocrisy by not passing anything for Infra-Structure during their reign in Congress (and had the WH too). Nothing was passed for I-S (InfraS.). The only thing republicans passed was the 2017 tax cut bill for their wealthy patrons. Funny when Biden got into office, the markets went racing upwards, very contrary to what gutter mouth rump predicted. Goes to show you that rump doesn't know squat.

We (and I know that Biden and the powers that be know this) need to communicate massively (and I mean massively) to overwhelm any false problems or both sides'ism (sorry about spelling!) by republicans. We have most of America on our side already. Put up (my suggestion) a team of construction people/experts in InfraS., and keep hammering it away. Call the legislative I-S bill 'The Fixing Up Of America AND Jobs!' Act. We know that there are plenty of benefits, and it does need to be paid for.

And what's more amazing to me, is that Infrastructure issues just alone in 14 republican states (western) that equals the population of LA, California would be probably 100 times what LA would ever be.

And republicans are whining about costs, especially since most the reasonable burden of paying for these upgrades should fall on those w/ the most roads, etc. (the western states, millions of miles it seems like, vs. what LA would be). But, in footing the bill, guess who is going to help them pay for western states infrastructure? Blue states with their heavily concentrated populations, thus tons of tax revenue vs. 1000 people in a 100 sq. mile of a western Republican state (very little tax revenue).

[demosincebirth]

26. He does have a point, and a very good one.

[Dream Girl]

37. He does. When I first heard Gil Garcetti use "defund the police" I cringed.

I knew it would be easily weaponized and used to scare mainstream white people. Wat a stupid, stupid phrase... we just seem to serve up these things on a silver platter.

[demosincebirth]

55. Democrats have alway been very good at shooting them selves

In the foot.

[uponit7771]

34. ACA is perfect example of no national level attack allowing the stupid to take root. They can't ...

... occupy spaces we took up first with an attack theme and a flooded zone.

We need to get a messaging / feedback infrastructure in place the right has or we'll keep seeing them kick sand in our faces.

[Demsrule86]

48. The Democrats lost in 2010 because of message voting ...those on our side who were angry about

a public option...we need to be loyal and vote blue no matter who or what.

[SWBTATTReg]

52. Absolutely you're right. We need a coordinated and ongoing messaging to aggressively

counter republican messages that are often misleading, plain flat out lies, etc. and so forth. Time to take the war of words to them, and be relentless. Don't let up. Keep punching republicans in turn for the most god awful, deficit-busting 2017 tax cut and supposedly jobs bill. Be relentless. Ask them (republicans) why they weren't so concerned about deficits when they passed the 2017 tax cut bill, w/ no corresponding savings to help pay for the tax cuts anywhere. And they did this relatively a short while ago (2017).

[misanthrope]

58. Hear, hear

!

[bullimiami]

25. how can an "authority" be wrong so often?

[WHITT]

28. The Real Reason

the Dems had congressional losses in 2020 was because they didn't want to go out into a raging pandemic to campaign, or have their supporters go out into a raging pandemic to campaign, so they did the best they could virtually.

The Repubs didn't care if their supporters died, as long as they voted first.

Assuming no pandemic in '22, there's no reason the Dems can't repeat '18.

[DetroitLegalBeagle]

36. Doubtful unfortunately

Midterms rarely ever go well for the party in the White House. 2002 and 1998 are the only exceptions since 1934. Additionally, redistricting is about to happen. The gop did surprisingly well in state races so they control the redistricting process in twice as many states as the Dems do. Early projections show 3 of their states, TX, FL, and NC, gaining 6 seats total this time around. MT, AZ, and CO might gain 1 each, but they have independent commissions draw their districts. Oregon is the only state that is projected to gain a seat that the Dems will control redistricting. CA, NY, IL, MN, MI, PA, RI, OH, WV and AL all are projected to lose a seat each. We have major headwinds going into 2022 and we need some legislative wins and good messaging to counter it.

[WHITT]

44. Well

2002 and 1998 were situational. However, the 2018 tsunami was primarily GOTV, as were the Georgia Senate races. No reason (other than voter suppression legislation) they can't be repeated.

[ibegurpard]

50. True however

You can't assume that the losses in those states are going to be Democratic held seats. Some of them were so severely gerrymandered that they were maxed out for Republicans already.

[Bettie]

51. Add to that the fact that every MAGAT with a pulse crawled out of their holes to

vote for Dear Orange Leader.

They didn't care about any message beyond "Whoo Hoo! Fuck yer feelings, OWN TEH LIBS!"

[lagomorph777]

35. James, you're out of touch.

[WarGamer]

39. I really wish people would use the same amount of energy devoted to social issues...

on economic justice issues.

We CAN NOT fix any social issues until the wealthy are taxed properly.

[Runningdawg]

42. Before the wet brain I used to really like JC

[TexasBushwhacker]

157. Yeah, I remember the "Cocktail Party" commercial

he and his wife did years ago. Louisianans love their booze.

[JHB]

43. How much of that is actually Democrats (or even "the English Faculty at Amherst") and how much is...

...right-wing media pumping their grievance balloon?

They will take anything and inflate it into a world-shaking crisis. Remember how they screamed all day and night for months about the New Black Panther Party? An organization that could probably fill a school bus, but debatable if it could fill two? And how Obama was going to use them as his stormtroopers? But that never materialized, yet again?

It's not "the English Faculty at Amherst" that has too much influence, it's the absence of an effective messaging apparatus to counter the massed horseshit cannons of the right. So why isn't a messaging professional like Carville focusing more on that?

[Klaralven]

45. 2022 may be a repeat of 1994 and 2010

[Demsrule86]

49. Or it could be 2002 ...which is what I hope for where the President's party made gains.. It all

depends on if we show up.

[Demovictory9]

53. i hope not

[liberalmediaaddict]

57. All 3 word slogans seem to hurt Democrats

"Defund the police," "Medicare For All," "Stack the courts." The Repuglicans love using these terms to scare their voters into believing we want to abolish the police department, end private health insurance and take over the courts with a bunch of abortion loving judges.

I understand Carville's point. Unfortunately the midterms are going to be hard for us to win regardless of message. With the GOP gerrymandering and voter suppression it's going to be a miracle if we keep control of the House and Senate.

[Autumn]

63. His concern is noted. nt

[Duncan Grant]

68. James Carville: "I've never heard anybody use the word hegemony."

Concepts of fragility and privilege must be awfully hard for him to swallow.

Truth is, people and cultures change. In response, we use new terminology and vocabulary.

Can we talk about income inequality now? Hungry and traumatized kids? Corporate power and fascism? Step the fuck up, James — or step down.

[Mad_Machine76]

73. Stuff like this really frustrates me

I can't stand people whom insist that the only way to win is to continue to support and appeal to ignorance and not seek any kind of improvement in our institutions, treatment of minorities, etc. Keeping our society barefoot and ignorant and appealing to the dying breed of bigots in our country is not IMHO the way to electoral success nor moving our country forward. Sorry. I just don't get it.

[fishwax]

74. It's really bizarre to put "person of color" and "defund the police" in the same category

I can see that defund the police is a legitimately controversial phrase. Personally I think the phrase is fine (if defended and explained aggressively and strategically), but I can see why some would argue that (a) the term could scare older white voters (like my mom, who freaked out when she heard dems wanted to "defund the police" and/or (b) that one could more effectively argue for the same policies under the banner of police reform.

But "people of color"? That's just not a controversial label, except perhaps among very, very uptight white folk. I know hundreds of people who think of themselves as a "person of color." I also know some folks who may not use the term for their own identity primarily or even at all, but I don't think I know anyone who is a person of color who would be offended at the term. I can't fathom this term turning off voters who were ever going to vote dem anyway. It's a really bizarre association.

I mean, Obama joked about Boehner being a "person of color ... a color not found in nature" (or something similar) way back in his first term. And I don't remember it being any more controversial than, say, wearing a tan suit or using utensils to eat pizza. Or greeting someone with a fist bump.

[bigtree]

76. no one is pushing 'defund police'

...except people who look to benefit from the fake controversy, like this old pol desperate to be noticed.

[caber09]

82. Another one, please stop AOC etc literally ran on dtp and it dragged dems down

[bigtree]

83. that's literally a lie.

[betsuni]

85. She said "Defund the police means defund the police."

That was her position.

[George II]

152. Yes, that's an exact quote.

[bigtree]

168. poster claimed she 'literally ran on defund police

...that's a literal lie.

[betsuni]

170. She did. AOC "is among the proponents of defunding the police departments and reinvesting

the money in local communities." She ran on defund the police.

http://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-53997196

[bigtree]

178. her statement was specifically about removing police from schools

...again, this isn't part of any campaign. It's advocacy by a congresswoman for a reduced police presence in her city's streets and the removal of police from the city's schools. It's her statement in response to DeBlasio's budget.

It's a far cry more responsible than the effort to make it appear AOC is the instigator of the phrase or the main protagonist for whatever people imagine she means by 'defund.'

I daresay her critics don't even care what she means, not Carville, and apparently, not you either. It's just something people use to bash AOC, and lets not forget, an effort to discredit BLM, who actually coined the slogan. That's the effect of mentioning her in this thread, whatever the intent. It's disinformation in a thread about someone spreading disinformation.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised. That's how the anti-defund slogan 'campaign' is designed. It's why it's a thing, why it's being perpetuated. It's intended as a wedge, a way to spark Democratic infighting. Carville is stupidly, or complicitly encouraging that. He needs to go away.

[betsuni]

184. "Defunding police" is still on her campaign website.

She campaigned on this.

[caber09]

185. Unbelievable...

DTP is on her website, she was going around repeating it before the election, "defund the police means defund the police"...good thing she wasn't "campaigning on it" with literally all that campaigning..because it would've cost us even more seats. Boy some people enjoy handing elections to the Rs just so they can complain afterwards...can't wait to hear from more people where almost 70% of their district voterd R and have a rw nut as their rep..to tell me that dtp resonated in their districts while telling someone like me born and bred in NYC that I don't know anything about cities or growing up in one

[bigtree]

188. she made a couple of statements, she didn't 'go around repeating it'

...one in response to a question asked on ABC, the other in a statement about DeBlasio's budget.

The only thing 'handing elections to republicans is the effort to divide Democrats among themselves, like this bogus attempt to make AOC own the BLM slogan.

There's not ONE mention of the substance of AOC's remarks, just the dig at her for daring to say the word 'defund.' Are we supposed to see this demagoguery against her as some kind of political genius? It's dirt dumb to keep nattering on about it, but it's obviously part of a broader agenda than just 'supporting Democrats.' It's divisive, right from the start to misappropriate the BLM slogan, but even further counterproductive to make it into the worst of whatever republicans say it means.

I can't think of a weaker, more navel-gazing approach to politics than this effort.

[bigtree]

187. she's just a target for some

...people who don't really care what she says, just as long as they can advantage their personal politics from mentioning her name and blaming her for something or the other.

I think the effort is pathetic, and much worse politics than anything associated with that slogan. The slogan advocates for safe communities, free from an unnecessary glut of abusive police forces. Opponents of the slogan are using it for petty political attacks and recrimination.

I stand with those looking to reform the police, not with those more concerned with semantics than with the actul substance of BLM's and AOC's advocacy.

And everyone can see for themselves that her statements were part and parcel of her office and advocacy, not some petty campaign.

[caber09]

189. Ok let's try this with you...what district are you in? Did dtp resonate in your district?

Didn't work out for the last few people I asked, so me being actually from nyc I'd like to see where this dtp is supposedly actually resonating..so what district are you in, I'm curious because the last one lied and said it did yet that poster comes from a district where the house r won with 67% of the vote

[bigtree]

192. nope

...done.

[caber09]

196. Yep nothing to say because you've been proven wrong, understood

[betsuni]

197. +1

[bigtree]

203. another one of your bad takes on this thread

...give it a rest.

[caber09]

98. No it's not "dtp means dtp" is what she pushed nationwide as well

Again I'm from two districts over from her in NYC she is toxic almost everywhere outside her district...spouting off "dtp means dtp" constantly before the elections damaged our chances all over even the liberal nyc council and nys dems
Complained it made elections much closer and cost several seats in deep blue New York...dtp is poison

[bigtree]

167. you didn't post a quote because there wasn't one

...more AOC bashing nonsense.

[betsuni]

171. In response to DeBlasio's budget cuts, she said "This is not a victory. The fight to defund

policing continues -- defunding the police means defunding the police. It does not mean budget tricks or funny math."

[bigtree]

172. she didn't base any campaign on that

Last edited Mon Apr 12, 2021, 06:28 PM - Edit history (1)

...and she's said much more about it than that. You couldn't be bothered to actually post her full position and statements on this. Just this misrepresentation. I can't be bothered with this.

Posting this nonsense is just an extension of an anti-AOC theme that's been allowed to continue here and elsewhere. It doesn't help Democrats to do this any more than the handwringing over a slogan.

This is what republicans want people talking about, and pointing fingers at AOC is the ultimate give to republican demagogues. I wish people here would give it a rest.

[Sympthsical]

173. Can't believe this post got alerted on

Whut?

A lot of these anti-AOC threads are just alert bait. Ever be careful.

[betsuni]

176. Here she is on Good Morning America talking about her support of defund the police.

That's campaigning. It was her position.

[bigtree]

177. that's not campaigning

...it's a GMA interview.

It's also far beyond the point of her appearance, which I'm sure was the host's aim. I'm much more interested in her reaction to the disinformation about the police assault on the protester. But here you've focused on the disinformation about a slogan, further amplifying it. AOC having nothing at all to do with that.

[caber09]

190. Hmmm...

https://nypost.com/2021/04/13/top-dems-distance-from-squad-calls-to-abolish-police/

Or as some would say here..."not campaigning" "they don't say these things"

[bigtree]

193. meh.

[caber09]

195. Meh? Yep nothing to say bec it contradicts what you've been saying

[betsuni]

194. The words I'm saying don't mean what the words mean!

Or something.

[bigtree]

204. answering a question in an interview is not a campaign

...nor is a statment issued by the congresswoman in response to a state budget proposal a campaign.

[caber09]

206. She has constantly pushed Defunding the Police, not sure what you arent getting, or refusing to get

“Defunding police means defunding police,” the congresswoman said in a statement. “It does not mean budget tricks or funny math. It does not mean moving school police officers from the NYPD budget to the Department of Education’s budget so the exact same police remain in schools.”

Stop making excuses for her....again I am from a deep blue district 2 districts over for her, she wouldnt get elected dog catcher..all her candidates lost in the surrounding areas inside NYC and her endorsed candidate one district over just lost by 40%+ to a moderate dem in a nyc council race...and she is toxic to the dems on Long Island..as is defund the police...keep pushing her narrative there will be less Dems in office....so please tell me again how does defund the police resonate in your district?

[bigtree]

207. a couple instances, only two cited on this thread

...one in response to a question in an interview, and the other in a statement on DeBlasio's budget.

Your assertions that she 'pushed' defunding are demonstratably false. Your repeated posts on this are misinforming and your citations don't support your claims.

[caber09]

208. "A handful of times" ?? she is one of the proponents of defunding the police...constantly pushing

It is literally one of her top priorities, come on man

"Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is among the proponents of the call to defund the police"

https://news.yahoo.com/aoc-asked-defunding-police-her-130800430.html

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/505307-ocasio-cortez-dismisses-proposed-1b-cut-defunding-police-means-defunding
"Defund the police means defund the police"

AOC defends ‘defund the police’ mantra after Dem losses...Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez defended her support for “defund the police” Thursday night after a number of Democrats credited the slogan, among other far-left policies she has championed, for their loss of seats in the House.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
@AOC
·
Dec 2, 2020
What if activists aren’t PR firms for politicians & their demands are bc police budgets are exploding, community resources are shrinking to bankroll it, & ppl brought this up for ages but it wasn’t until they said “defund” that comfortable people started paying attn to brutality

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-aoc-nypd-de-blasio-george-floyd-protest-defund-police-a9553606.html
US Rep Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez calls for NYPD to be defunded

https://nowthisnews.com/news/progressive-dems-rip-into-obamas-criticism-of-defund-the-police-as-snappy-slogan
She added: “I think a lot of Dem strategy is to avoid actually working through this. Just trying to avoid poking the bear. That’s their argument with defunding police, right? To not agitate racial resentment. I don’t think that is sustainable.”

https://www.fox5dc.com/news/aoc-supports-defund-the-police-demands-in-wake-of-george-floyds-death
aoc-supports-defund-the-police-demands

https://theislandnow.com/rop/democratic-leader-jacobs-invites-ocasio-cortez-to-run-on-l-i-after-comments-on-police-funding/
“AOC has no standing on how to run a general election in the suburbs and upstate,” Jacobs told the New York Post. “AOC is in a district that’s 6-1 Democrat and she couldn’t find a Republican in her district with binoculars. I invite AOC to come to Long Island and stand for election in one of our districts. You’ll see different results.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/06/nyregion/election-nyc-defund-police.html
How ‘Defund the Police’ Roiled Competitive Races in New York

https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/Nancy-Pelosi-Abigail-Spanberger-call-defund-police-15707741.php
"Defunding the police" has proved to be an extremely unpopular policy position, with polling showing that anywhere from just 24% to 28% of Americans support the slogan/movement.
Polling has shown a majority African Americans do not support defunding the police.

[bigtree]

209. all of those links point to only TWO instances where she used the word 'defund'

...one in response to a question asked, and the other in a statement on DeBlasio's budget.

You're still misinforming.

[caber09]

210. What dont you understand...

EVERY article says she was one of the biggest pushers of Defund the Police, something you keep denying..the articles say how bad it dragged our side down, how it is unpopular overall AND with the black community..get your head out of the sand and wake up...I would take all the dems who came out against defund especially Obama and Biden over her...they know much more than, her, you or me...you have blinders on. wake up before this costs us more seats and we are out of power again...please tell me how defund resonates in your district..so far your side on here is a big ZERO, those claiming it was popular by them, then oops its actually not...I just showed you its unpopular throughout the country AND with black community, please tell me how it rates in YOUR district...its very unpopular by me...go for it let me know, otherwise get off the pot.

[bigtree]

211. any article that states that is wrong

...and misinforming.

BLM originated the phrase, and is the most prominent proponent of defunding police.

What you fail to understand is the difference between a pol legislating and a pol campaigning. Further, if you bother to recognize what AOC actually means by defund, you will see that it's nothing more than reallocation of police funding, something which is done regularly in state budgets around the nation. Except, of course, in advocating for the removal of police from the state's schools which you may or may not be in favor of.

Hardly a campaign, more akin to traditional advocacy that pols regularly engage in. Inflating those two instances into a 'campaign' is disinforming and demonstrably false.

[caber09]

212. Thanks for the good laugh..."any article that states that is wrong"

I know what it is supposed to mean...using defund the police slogan is one of the dumbest political slogans in recent history...way to hand the Rs a talking point. Most Americans wont "bother to recognize what AOC actually means", do you even know the american electorate...you are asking them to be nuanced? You havent been paying attention then. This stupid slogan cost us a chance to really make progress, it cost us a adding to our House majority, it cost us several Senate seats..and as the NYT article points out, it even made NY races much closer than they shouldve been. And now its going to be used against us again in 2022. Several places that defunded are now re-funding the police because it was a disaster for them. Defund the Police is very unpopular throughout the country including in Black Communities..but you want to keep pushing a losing narrative...are you going to be happy when the Rs regain power? Thankfully Biden immediately came out strongly against this otherwise we would be talking about a 2nd Trump term.

Everyone recognizes AOC as a vocal supporter of Defund the Police, one of the most prominent supporters...why is that? Why are you one of the few that disagrees. And again I ask you as you shout down from your soap box, how does defund the police resonate in your district? Why cant you answer that? Some of the others here lied about it being popular in their home districts, when it was VERY easy to find out they were not telling the truth...so how does it resonate in your district?

[bigtree]

216. I live in a suburb which does not have an oppressive police presence

...that's the ONLY issue that's being seriously discussed and debated by legislators.

No prominent pol is proposing defunding police, except, ostensibly AOC in the case of police in schools. All that's been proposed by legislators is a reallocation of forces and funding, something regularly decided by state legislatures.

What you're talking about 'hurting Dems' is the very same mischaracterization of Democratic positions on the issue. You're conflating the initial BLM slogan and sentiment with very different proposals, muddying the water and doing the very thing you're handwringing about - perpetuating disinformation and perpetuating the notion that AOC or any prominent Democrat supports something similar to what BLM wants. It's demonstratably false, and it's about the dumbest political tact in the room.

[caber09]

223. So you are saying Biden, Obama, Clyburn and most dems are wrong and you are right?

Ah so defund the police doesnt resonate in your district either huh...so another person for defunding police, yet its not a popular issue within your own district

[bigtree]

225. you're now entirely debating the inside of your own head

...don't need me for this.

Get outside today.

[caber09]

227. Yep no comeback whatsoever...get out of your utopia look around, you are wrong

[bigtree]

229. non sequiturs aren't designed for comebacks

...they're just bait.

I laid a stone path in the mud and rain today, in between encouraging you in this curious exchange. I'm now done with both.

[KG]

77. I lulz'd

[AZProgressive]

89. It is interesting he is saying this when he was dead set against Bernie Sanders

For the longest time the Third Way was known for being centrist or right wing on economics issues but you could count on them to be left wing on social issues. Usually they waited for the poll numbers to improve before they "evolved" but still you could count on them to be liberal on social issues.

He lost even more credibility with me when he mentioned "cancel culture".

BTW Defund the Police is an economic policy

[betsuni]

93. "the Third Way was known for being centrist or right wing on economic issues"

You're saying Democrats are "Third Way" "centrist" "right-wing" on economic issues? Why?

[betsuni]

151. Guess I'm not going to get an explanation. Insults only.

[oasis]

150. We can win elections if we think and act wisely. nt

[DFW]

153. Well put.

For all his Looziana drawl and opinionated statements, Jim Carville has been around long enough to be able to speak in metaphors and hope that other Democrats get it. His "Amherst" comment, not to taken literally, obviously, means that no one center of thinking or point of view can be allowed to rule party strategy if we are to win. All politics IS local. And he was around Bill Clinton long enough to realize that the less we insist on ethnic identification, the stronger our coalition holds. E pluribus unum was the original motto of this country. Republicans replaced it with "in God we trust." Let them keep theirs. Let the original apply to us.

[oasis]

160. "He who knows, and knows that he knows.....etc.. Carville's

storehouse of political savvy didn't just spring out of nowhere.

[DFW]

161. I first met him at a meeting of Texas Democrats

He said that when he was asked to speak before the Texas Democrats, he thought the convention would fit easily inside a phone booth

[TxGuitar]

159. James Carville worried he's set to lose

Relevancy.

[BannonsLiver]

174. Given some of the responses in the thread he's probably right.

[NNadir]

179. One boomer to another: OK, Boomer. n/t.

[Celerity]

198. he is actually technically too old to even be a boomer

Born: October 25, 1944

He often strikes me as a fairly bitter cleverclogs (that old 'swamp rat sagacity' schtick is tiresome AF) who advocates for retrograde actions/stances too many times.

and this

“I don’t know of a single person that thinks of themselves as a ‘person of color,'” Carville said.

shows how truly out of touch he has become

finally

this

‘English Faculty at Amherst Has too Much Power in This Party’

is just some straight up bollocks, nicked straight from the RW framing playbook

[NNadir]

200. Thanks for that locution.

"clever clogs." I had to look it up. (I'll probably use it sometime in some place, if, as an old guy, I remember it.) It fits, although I'm quite sure it also fits for me at times, especially for those who have made it to my very wonderful ignore list. (I also had to look up that internet abbreviation "AF.&quot

The birth year 1944 is just at the edge of boomerish; certainly he grew up among us and embraces all of our extremely myopic worldviews. (I am pleasantly surprised, by contrast, of our President's very different, very unboomerish worldview.)

As for mouthing right wing talking points with that idiotic and trivializing Amherst remark, he did marry a Republican and perhaps, under the influence of his wife, became one, if not formally, then emotionally. (I was going to use the word "intellectually" but there is nothing "intellectual" about gun toting thugs who cheer for the "right" to shoot children and, for that matter, people of color.

[betsuni]

201. "under the influence of his wife, became one"

Obviously not true.

[NNadir]

202. I concede there is a difference between obvious and subtle.

I'm focusing on the subtle. One's formal party designation does not necessarily reflect one's actual thinking.

The remarks cited by the correspondent to whom I responded, that about how he doesn't know anyone who refers to "people of color," and the demeaning remark about Amherst would not have surprised me coming out of that lard laced bundle of cancer who recently trucked off to hell, Rush Limbaugh.

I have used the term "people of color," for the record, and frankly I'm very pleased Carville doesn't know me.

[Skittles]

180. no one ever worries about repukes losing over fascist issues

standards are so much higher for Dems

[Mysterian]

181. This is the kind of thinking that has hamstrung the Democratic party

and allowed the fascist republicans to nearly destroy our democracy.

[CrackityJones75]

213. That dude is always worried.

Christ I am so tired of hearing about all the worry. The republican party is literally actively tearing the country apart and we are supposed to be careful stepping around the fucking eggshells!

Good God. The differences between the two parties have never been starker. One wants to kill Americans. The other wants to bail them out.

Tired of the worry warts.

[oasis]

214. If Biden had backed DTP, Trump would still be president. PERIOD.

There is no doubt about it.

[caber09]

215. +1000000

[bigtree]

217. if Biden had wings and wheels...

...

[caber09]

218. Please come back to reality

If Biden didnt come out immediately against defund the police, Trump would be President, whatever you are pushing wouldve cost us even more seats, wise up already otherwise we are going to lose more in 2022...then any progress will be reversed..use some common sense for all our sakes

[bigtree]

221. please give it a rest

[caber09]

224. Great comeback, you already proved being full of it bec your district is not for defunding police

So ironically (well maybe not so ironic) every person here that has answered the question & is pro-defund the police lives in a district where it hasnt resonated yet projects that it is not a losing slogan/issue

[bigtree]

226. please stop.

[caber09]

228. Sad, you are begging, I accept your unconditional surrender, enjoy your safe suburb

[bigtree]

230. take care of yourself

...

[caber09]

231. Oh by the way Rs got 200k more votes in nyc bec of dtp..

So like I said it hurt in nyc imagine the drag it had nationwide, but bless your heart

[oasis]

219. "Air Force One" will do for now. Thank you.

[bigtree]

222. ha!

...

[iemanja]

220. I doubt the English faculty at Amherst

have much control over Amherst, if it's like any other institution of higher education.