I take major issue with Joe Biden's work visa plan

[crimycarny]

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I actually agreed with something Trump did which was to severely restrict H1B visas and to change the lottery system with a wage based system. Joe Biden states he will overturn all of that.

I'm in IT and I can't tell you the number of times that I or someone I know (including my husband) has been laid off and replaced with a cheaper H1B worker. To add insult to injury, in order to get severance we've had to train our replacements. The whole idea behind H1B visas was to allow companies to hire foreign workers WHEN THEY COULDN'T FIND THE EXPERTISE IN THE U.S. So why is the person being replaced by the H1B worker training them?

Well, it just happened again. The company I work for, a major hospital chain, just laid off 75% of IT and outsourced them to foreign workers. We are all training these new workers, many of which lack the experience to do the job. We're talking a hospital and patient safety, not just lost revenue if a system goes down.

Corporations blatantly abuse the H1B visas and it hurts US workers as well as the H1B workers replacing them. The idea behind a wage based system was that an H1B worker had to be paid the same, or more, than his US counterpart. This makes sense to me because if the purpose of the H1B visa is to fill a need that can't be filled by a US worker, then why not pay them a fair wage? Using a wage based system prevents corporations from replacing US workers to please their shareholders, and it prevents the Corporations from grossly underpaying their H1B workers.

Sorry, just so tired of this.

[treestar]

1. Has to be changed by Congress

not by Trump Executive Order.

[crimycarny]

2. That's not the point

The method doesn't matter to me, it's the meat of the issue. Stop Corporations from abusing the H1B system. It hurts US Workers and it hurts H1B workers as well. In Silicon Valley you will have 5 or 6 living together in a small apartment because they aren't being paid a fair wage.

Remember Disney? 250 Disney workers laid off and forced to train their replacements. As in the case I'm dealing with now, the replacements are entry level, not even close to the level of expertise they are replacing. But Corporations love H1B visa workers because not only can they pay them far less, they can also abuse them because they can only stay 14 days if they lose their job.

Just google the side of the H1B worker. Massive abuses.

[treestar]

31. 65000 of them per year under current law

the government has fraud units - first requirement is the requirement to pay the prevailing wage and offer the same conditions as to US workers. The government does fight employers - part of the law characterizes some employers as H-1B dependent and restricts the more. It is not easy to get one and there are legal and filing fees, so nobody is motivated to pick an H-1B over a US person. 65000 get taken up a day or two after the first filing day for the year. That's not the huge effect on the job market that people make of it.

[crimycarny]

13. Looks like Grassley and Durbin have a bipartisan bill to address this

Interestingly I can only find mention of this on India web/news sites. But at least there is a bipartisan bill in the works to try and address this issue. But this same bill has been around for a few years now and so far it hasn't passed.

https://timeslinks.com/biden-administration-urged-to-implement-h1b-visa-programme/

[Laelth]

3. I agree. The H1b system has a place, but it should not be used to hire cheaper labor.

I am opposed, in principle, to favoring literate, highly-educated workers. We have plenty of people like that who need jobs. Personally, I want to let in ambitious people—smart, uneducated people who are willing to walk 1.000 miles to become American citizens, for example. I want more of those.

-Laelth

[WarGamer]

26. Charge the employer $100k a year per H1B. Problem solved.

[treestar]

32. They are required to pay prevailing wage

so it's a constant lie that they are cheap labor.

And in response, the companies will just move the jobs to another country.

And how many IT jobs are there? 65000 limit per year - is that half the work force? I doubt it.

[Laelth]

34. I appreciate the information that you provided.

I will reserve judgment while continuing to insist that H1b has a place in our immigration system so long as it is NOT a means of depressing wages in the United States.

Let them move the jobs overseas if they want to. They don’t, and they won’t because the jobs are HERE in the USA.

-Laelth

[uponit7771]

37. This is false in practice, the "prevailing" part is fudged consummately and not based on experience

I interviewed 100s, I know what corporations do

[treestar]

39. There's a fraud unit at USCIS

tell them about it.

There is plenty of pushback from the government on people who would try to exploit people with H-1Bs.

They are supposed to be paid the same and get the same treatment. There are audits. Plus no reason to think every single H-1B employer is breaking the law.

[uponit7771]

40. Then the current system is an after the fact enforcement vs per experience relative to confirmed ...

... resume etc then people should get a prevailing wage.

We agree ever H-1B employer isn't breaking the law the bigger issue is the system currently allows 10 too many to do so.

[treestar]

42. Not at all - to apply for an H-1B for an

employee requires large filing fee, forms that ask all about the company, documentary requirements to prove the job is temporary and the qualifications for the job are relevant, that the company has enough income to pay the prevailing wage, notices posted for the other employees, the government requesting even more documents. And the petition can be denied if the government is not satisfied.

[crimycarny]

4. Oh yeah--forgot to add the execs are getting a 7.5% across the board bonus

For their cost cutting measures. Lining their pockets on the backs of workers who have been with the company for over 20 years, some over 30 years.

They are trying to blame COVID so they can get around the WARN act. But if it's budget related, why the 7.5% bonus?

Then you've got Southwest, the other side of the coin. The CEO not taking a salary, 20% salary cut to upper execs...all in an effort to prevent layoffs. And THAT is why Southwest is so successful. Smart employers realize that their employees are their greatest asset. Treat them fairly and they will go that extra mile to do all they can to make the company successful.

[Beastly Boy]

5. Did Trump ever address the widespread abuse of process by the big corporations?

if he didn't, you are not just agreeing with Trump. You are repeating his narrative which blames the recipients of H1B visas for corporate abuses of the process.

[crimycarny]

7. Is Biden going to address the widespread abuse?

Because I don't see that happening in any of Biden's proposals either.

I would say that enforcing a wage based versus lottery based system is a first step in addressing the abuses of H1B visa workers. Nowhere in my post did I blame H1B workers. And just because I stated I agree with Trump's idea of forcing Corporations to pay H1B workers the same as US Workers doesn't mean I agree with whatever messaging Trump used to sell his idea. I can't control his messaging, I look at the legislation.

The current system is set up to hurt H1B workers as well as US workers, period. It needs to be addressed. Biden opening up more work visas and removing the idea of paying those workers the same as a US worker only leads to more abuses.

[Thekaspervote]

23. Corporations are going to look for cheaper workers regardless of the laws.

They always have and will continue

[Demsrule86]

18. The recipients should not be recipients...it has happened to my family members...I am against

HIB visas...business doesn't play fair and it is used to reduce their cost of doing business.

[WarGamer]

19. Simple solution in the spirit of the law...

Each and every H1B Visa costs the hiring company $100k a year.

Problem solved.

[Yavin4]

6. One of the biggest lessons that I have learned since moving into IT back in 2000 is...

do not rely on a discrete IT skill set for career longevity. To protect your career, you have to move into leadership positions like Project Management, Team Lead, upper management, and beyond. Most ITers believe that if they master something then that will mean job security for life, and they're wrong. Companies will always try to replace you with either automation (see Cloud Computing) or importing cheap labor from overseas (H1B visas).

[crimycarny]

8. But it's not just IT, it's many STEM programs

IT is not the only area where H1B abuses are happening, it's many of the STEM careers. And you can't have all managers and no workers.

"Companies will always try to replace you with either automation (see Cloud Computing) or importing cheap labor from overseas (H1B visas)"

The former--automation--is the inevitable evolution of improvements in efficiency (like manufacturing). The latter is abuse which can be helped or prevented by protections put in by our lawmakers.

Corporations will also try to pollute waters, skirt safety rules, etc. Just because they will always "try" to do this doesn't mean our lawmakers can't make laws to prevent this. That would be like saying 'Well, Corporations are always going to try and get around environmental protections so best not to live close to a plant."

[Demsrule86]

20. + 1000

[Yavin4]

28. "And you can't have all managers and no workers"

It's funny that you say that. I just left my last position in January. Our Project Management team shrunk from 21 down to 8 over the past three years with no one being replaced. During that same period of time, our management team lost 4 people. All of them were replaced.

And they're looking to outsource the entire department, and that comes after they outsourced our interla IT team.

[Blue_true]

35. Did President Biden rescind Trump's EO on this particular issue?

I have not heard of that happening, but I have not been following H1B visas closely.

If President Biden has done nothing more than propose a policy, in my mind, that had nothing to do with the situation that you wrote about where a company is firing 75% of it’s IT employees, it doesn’t look like what Trump tried impacted that decision. Maybe Congress is the place where policy that you and many others want to see gets done, in that sense, I am sure that once President Biden presents his Visa plan to Congress, it is going to get worked over, so maybe writing to your Reps in Congress (House and Senate) pointing out some the issues that you see would have an impact.

I am trained as an engineer and spent a couple decades plus working for large corporations. My experience was that IT was consistently one of the first departments to get downsized, often dramatically.

You made some good observations about corporations hiring H1B Visa candidates over US people, but I believe that you left out some things that I have noticed in those hiring situations, the H1B Visa people bring a higher level of exposure to coming or future innovations, all that I saw had Masters or PhDs and and done research in the field. I never went around finding out how much people were paid, but the H1B Visa people seemed happy with their pay and were able to buy pricey homes in some of the places that I visited during my career in corporate America.

I believe that you are not seeing how powerful Automation and Artificial Intelligence has been in IT job loss. A lot of IT jobs that I witnessed involved maintaining things like inventory control systems, manufacturing software, data collection and analysis. All of those areas underwent dramatic automation during my career in corporate America, so much so that when I left, I could perform a task that a decade before I left would have required that I enlist an automation person for software, a database person, and a secretary - literally three salaries lost because automation and AI allowed me to perform the work those people did in an 8 hour day.

The future that I see is not a good one for workers, that is why politicians should get serious about developing a working GI system (along with asking people to have fewer children, the exact opposite of what politicians are saying). Automation and AI are not going to stop. Business people today can source resources from around the world today, one depressing thing that I see is that if I need an advanced processing machine or natural chemicals, I only see companies in China and India doing that work, every once in a while I will find a USA company that is doing engineering, or is making natural chemicals on a very limited basis, a level that won’t support intensive manufacturing. I believe that a lot of what I see is happening because US companies in those areas were disincentivized to invest in the future when big US companies went offshore for natural materials (and even food packaging, believe it or not), those US companies closed or moved offshore and the barrier for new US companies replacing them is very high (very simple and limited machines start at $90,000 and the one that are capable of intensive manufacturing go into a few millions - so a startup would need angel investors that are willing to pony up a lot of money with no certainty of return, just to see manufacturing done in this country again).

[OnDoutside]

10. To an extent I agree, but they'd replace them too if they could.

I've been in IT for the last 32 years, the first 8 permanent, the next 22 as a contractor and the last 2 back permanent for an American pharma company here in Europe.

I worked with an Indian guy on a project in Scotland. He was put in there by one of big 5 consulting services, brought over from their Mumbai office. In fact had been constantly on the road for them over the previous 14 years. Really smart guy, excellent English, and he was a project lead with in-depth knowledge of the application. They were charging him out at about $200 an hour to the client and he was earning the equivalent of $16,000 a year, but they would pay for an apartment, a living allowance and a flight home every 6 months. They brought his new wife over a couple of years before, and they got to see Europe on the company.

[Silent3]

15. Thank the deity-of-your-choice I've made it to 58 y/o without doing any of that

Sure, I could have made more money moving up into management, but I HATE that stuff. The fewer meetings and the less paperwork in my life, the better.

I like creating code. I despise all of the project management stuff, even the stuff I have to deal with as a senior software engineer. I'm very happy that I can retire soon, because the job is too much about process these days, and not enough about code. It's very different in terms of culture than when I started, and not it a way I consider an improvement.

Of course, I have done more than simply "master something", if by that you mean learning one way of doing things, and considering myself set for life. I've definitely needed to make myself a life-long learner, always learning new skills along the way.

[crimycarny]

9. 60 minutes did an expose on the abuses--not just IT but other STEM careers

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-h-1b-visas-have-been-abused-since-the-beginning/

[WarGamer]

17. It's a problem in BioTech...

I can confirm.

If I didn't have such a niche specialization, they would have gotten rid of me years ago.

[uponit7771]

38. ..👍🏼

[RainCaster]

11. It's not only IT, high tech in general has an ageism problem

Microsoft, Facebook, Google, Intel, and more all have a significant problem with older workers. If you are not a vp by 60, there must be something wrong with you. Even if you are a VP, the next job will want you to have direct low level experience with the latest tech. The only way that happens is if you are young and on your way up.
Take a look at the recruiting web sites for any of these firms. All the photos are of millennials, grey hair is not present.

[crimycarny]

12. Yes, totally agree

There is definitely an ageism problem as well. Again, it comes down to $$$ because the more experienced you are and the longer you have been in your job, the higher paid.

Funny, none of these execs deciding to outsource would ever dream of outsourcing their jobs.

[Thekaspervote]

24. Unfortunately your comment proves that this will happen regardless of the laws

[leftstreet]

14. DURec

Thanks for posting this.

I'd forgotten all about Trump rolling that back. And at the time you had to dig deep past the noisy immigration talking points on both sides to actually understand what had happened.

[WarGamer]

16. Agreed, 100%

In BioPharma, I've repeatedly seen experienced American mid-level technicians and Engineers lose their jobs to H1B holders... and train them on their way out.

H1B's are pro-Corporation and should be frowned upon by all progressives.

[Demsrule86]

21. Agree...we need jobs. And I am sick of what amounts to corporate welfare.

[WarGamer]

25. It's absolutely corporate welfare.

I left (was pushed) out of my BioPharma employer (of nearly 20 years) a while ago...

Because in BioTech in general, the company must justify expenses related to specific projects to keep the shareholders happy.

So... if you have a fairly common knowledge set... like a BioChemist... watch out. They will replace your ass with a guy from India or Pakistan in a minute to show RIF in the quarterly report.

Me... well, I authored a file cabinet full of their patents and my specialty is REAAALLLY niche and not many others can replace me.

So now they pay me as a Consultant which costs MORE than having me on the payroll FT but it shows up differently on the quarterly report.

[Buckeyeblue]

22. I didn't see any less outsourcing under Trump

I do agree it's a problem though.

[drray23]

27. The issue is not the H1B program itself

It is the abuse by the corporations. If that was enforced, we would not have that problem.

[uponit7771]

41. +1

[dalton99a]

29. If it can be made in China, it will be made in China

If it can be coded in India, it will be coded in India

Guaranteed. The bean counters will see to it

[Tommymac]

30. Sorry, imo this is a false flag. The REAL issue with IT is the refusal of workers to Unionize.

I've been outsourced 4 or 5 or 6 times over the last 20 years...and I had another job within weeks.

Every. Single. Time.

I've worked at over a half dozen Fortune 500 or better corporations over the last 20 years...and every one did not have ENOUGH workers who could do the job.

So we all worked 60 hour weeks, as salaried workers. No overtime. No family time.

They needed to hire out of country because their are not ENOUGH domestic workers. They get burned out too damn quick.

IT needs to unionize - until those in the field lose their 'libertarian' viewpoint and stop worshipping Ayn Rand and understand that we ALL are pawns in the corporate greed game nothing will change.

[radius777]

36. Trump's rise happened for a reason, and we need to take heed.

Trump's main appeal (aside from the racist clown show) was that he would crack down on trade, immigration and outsourcing that has become a major problem over the past 40 years under both parties. Americans don't want too much immigration or outsourcing, which creates strain on the social safety net, makes jobs harder to find and depresses wages. Dems truly do need to move to the center on these issues otherwise we risk a Trumper style candidate winning in 2024.

Voters will overwhelmingly support Dems if we show them we're like FDR - standing for the 99% of Americans vs the 1%. Globalism is here to stay, and we need a left leaning version of it that benefits regular people in all countries.