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Thu Jan 7, 2021, 04:36 PM

As a German, I say this: Do not repeat Germany's De-Nazification mistakes.

Once the Third Reich fell, magically all the Nazis in Germany disappeared. The big ones were put to trial, but all the little ones disappeared.

The law-bending Nazi-judges of the Third Reich magically stopped being Nazis.
The bootlicking NSDAP-members in every town-hall and administration magically stopped being fans of Hitler.
SS-soldiers magically became good people over night.

Germany as a whole simply decided to forget that the 12 years of Hitler's rule had ever happened.
Germany as a whole simply decided to forget that there were people in their midst who had commited horrible atrocities.



Then came the 1960s. A new generation, with fresh eyes, and they were horrified by how closely post-WWII Germany resembled the Third Reich.
The shameless support for the war in Vietnam and for murderous tyrants like the Shah of Iran.
The same shameless over-the-top propaganda, except this time it was driven by sensationalist media like the "Bild"-newspaper.
The same police-brutality, with some police-officers even being former SS-members.
The same Nazi-judges meting out harsh sentences against left-wing protesters like they did during the Third Reich.
The same societal retreat into conservatism that declared new ideas to be bad.

What followed was a cultural backlash from the left that was especially bad in 1968. A radicalization of the left that even birthed bona-fide domestic left-wing terrorists. The political climate became bad in Germany. Really, really bad. Because the majority of Germans prefered to forget, prefered to pretend that these young people didn't have a point when calling out all these similarities with Nazi-Germany.

The beginning of the end of the crisis came with Chancellor Willy Brandt, a social-democrat, admitting in a landmark-speech that these left-wing protesters had a point. In the following years he step by step defused the situation, by making political reforms that made Germany more liberal, thus showing to the radical left that there is a point in non-violent political activism.








The US must NOT EVER forget what Trump and his supporters have done.

The US must NOT EVER move on.

The US must NOT EVER in any way think that this was normal.

You don't heal a country by forgetting. You heal a country by facing the problem and talking about it every single day.

If you pretend that this crisis, this hatred, ended with Trump leaving office, if you decide to forget, then this hatred will fester and be reborn in a few decades.

Maybe it will return as right-wing violence. Maybe it will return as left-wing violence.

Please mark my words: If US-society decides to forgive and forget, if it decides to move on and to go back to business as usual, if it doesn't deal thoroughly with this hatred, with this divide and its perpetrators, then there will be dark consequences down the road.







EDIT: Maybe it was wrong for me to write this. I don't know. It feels like the right thing to do.

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Reply As a German, I say this: Do not repeat Germany's De-Nazification mistakes. (Original post)
DetlefK Jan 7 OP
musette_sf Jan 7 #1
enki23 Jan 7 #2
Pachamama Jan 7 #3
KS Toronado Jan 7 #33
ChazInAz Jan 7 #58
Klaralven Jan 7 #73
Blecht Jan 7 #4
cp Jan 7 #5
CrispyQ Jan 7 #6
HUAJIAO Jan 7 #31
uponit7771 Jan 7 #91
Meowmee Jan 7 #92
Aristus Jan 7 #7
Biophilic Jan 7 #8
Buckeye_Democrat Jan 7 #9
moonscape Jan 7 #50
Buckeye_Democrat Jan 7 #52
marble falls Jan 7 #10
world wide wally Jan 7 #11
ancianita Jan 7 #78
superpatriotman Jan 7 #12
alwaysinasnit Jan 7 #13
Alhena Jan 7 #14
Mr.Bill Jan 7 #15
meadowlander Jan 8 #99
Squinch Jan 7 #16
StevieM Jan 7 #17
geardaddy Jan 7 #20
Buckeye_Democrat Jan 7 #23
NHvet Jan 7 #25
misanthrope Jan 7 #35
StevieM Jan 7 #47
Marcuse Jan 7 #54
SuprstitionAintthWay Jan 7 #81
cilla4progress Jan 7 #59
uponit7771 Jan 7 #90
geardaddy Jan 7 #18
pecosbob Jan 7 #19
AmyStrange Jan 7 #21
sdfernando Jan 7 #22
Ferrets are Cool Jan 7 #24
peggysue2 Jan 7 #26
tiredtoo Jan 7 #27
CanonRay Jan 7 #28
LaMouffette Jan 7 #29
AdamGG Jan 7 #30
DSandra Jan 7 #32
Buckeye_Democrat Jan 7 #39
Blue_true Jan 7 #40
Ligyron Jan 7 #65
Blue_true Jan 7 #34
BadgerMom Jan 7 #36
soldierant Jan 7 #37
Jetheels Jan 7 #38
Wounded Bear Jan 7 #41
AmericanCanuck Jan 7 #42
PirateRo Jan 7 #43
cab67 Jan 7 #44
Ford_Prefect Jan 7 #45
SunSeeker Jan 7 #46
bucolic_frolic Jan 7 #48
TheRickles Jan 7 #49
Roisin Ni Fiachra Jan 7 #51
hunter Jan 7 #53
zentrum Jan 7 #55
Old Crow Jan 7 #56
burrowowl Jan 7 #57
stevesinpa Jan 7 #60
BigOleDummy Jan 7 #61
58Sunliner Jan 7 #62
OMGWTF Jan 7 #63
housecat Jan 7 #64
judesedit Jan 7 #66
smirkymonkey Jan 7 #67
Hekate Jan 7 #68
Trueblue Texan Jan 7 #69
BusyBeingBest Jan 7 #70
PurgedVoter Jan 7 #71
thucythucy Jan 7 #72
Ligyron Jan 7 #74
wryter2000 Jan 7 #75
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Blue Owl Jan 7 #77
BobTheSubgenius Jan 7 #79
Kitchari Jan 7 #80
njhoneybadger Jan 7 #82
Laura PourMeADrink Jan 7 #83
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stuffmatters Jan 7 #89
JustFiveMoreMinutes Jan 7 #93
BlancheSplanchnik Jan 7 #94
Meowmee Jan 7 #95
LudwigPastorius Jan 7 #96
Sparkly Jan 7 #97
OldEurope Jan 8 #98
Raster Jan 8 #100
BunnyMcGee Jan 8 #101
MrModerate Jan 8 #102
LymphocyteLover Jan 8 #103
UCmeNdc Jan 8 #104
Hotler Jan 8 #105
oldsoftie Jan 8 #106
Rabrrrrrr Jan 8 #107
The Mouth Jan 8 #108
VA_Jill Jan 8 #109
Aviation91 Jan 8 #110
Beartracks Jan 8 #111
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Nitram Jan 8 #113

Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 04:37 PM

1. K & R

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 04:38 PM

2. I don't see us de-Nazifying at all, at least anytime soon.

I agree that's a mistake, but we aren't the ones who are making it.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 04:38 PM

3. As a fellow German - I second this opinion

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Response to Pachamama (Reply #3)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 05:24 PM

33. As a full blooded German, I second this opinion also.

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Response to KS Toronado (Reply #33)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 06:12 PM

58. As a Hungarian

With a somewhat dubious family history regarding my father's service in WWII, I agree.

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Response to KS Toronado (Reply #33)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 06:48 PM

73. To be fair, Germans didn't make that mistake alone

The occupying forces of the US, UK and France decided to rehabilitate Germany as an anti-communist bulwark against the USSR.

The Federal German Republic was formed May 23, 1949, and it only became fully sovereign in 1990.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 04:40 PM

4. Great post -- thanks

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 04:40 PM

5. K&R a million times!!!

Very thoughtful. Very powerful.
"You don't heal a country by forgetting. You heal a country by facing the problem and talking about it every single day."
Thank you.

We have work to do. And a great administration and congress to do it with, but it takes every one of us.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 04:41 PM

6. Except for the true congressional trumpers like Jordan, Gaetz, Nunes, & Gohmert,

the rest of the repubs in Congress will act like the last four years never happened. They will never admit their part in it. They will just stop talking about it while they obstruct as much as they can. And both the media and our own party will let them get away with it. That's my prediction, much as I hate it.

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #6)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 05:21 PM

31. Your prediction is right on the money.

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #6)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 10:40 PM

91. There will be a reckoning but it will not go far enough. It's human behavior science to want to move

... on from bad feelings but we have to face them before doing so.

I pray Biden understands this part of history; there was no reckoning after the civil war and we went right back to what screwed us in the first place just a lighter form of it.

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #6)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 10:47 PM

92. This unfortunately

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 04:43 PM

7. I agree.

Everyone was a Nazi until the Allies showed up.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 04:43 PM

8. This

"You don't heal a country by forgetting. You heal a country by facing the problem and talking about it every single day."

We must not forgive or forget. We must learn from it and do better. If nothing else those coming behind us deserve it. We have an obligation to them as well as the ones who fought this fight before us. This isn't a one day deal and sweeping it under the carpet isn't worthy of us.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 04:44 PM

9. It will likely not end soon over here, as long as...

... the right-wing propagandists keep spewing their lies in various media outlets and they're allowed to persist due to "free speech".

At least Germany didn't allow the Nazi flags to keep flying.

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Response to Buckeye_Democrat (Reply #9)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 05:54 PM

50. They didn't have to deal with social media and the

ability for conspiracy theories to propagate in moments.

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Response to moonscape (Reply #50)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 05:55 PM

52. That's true too.

We're in a real mess.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 04:45 PM

10. A wonderful POV from someone who understands consequences is most welcome - thank-you!

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 04:47 PM

11. And that is exactly why these terrorists from yesterday, today, and tomorrow must

be prosecuted. Hopefully to forever instill a sense of guilt in them and to make rational Americans feel they have an upper hand. Reinforcement can work wonders.

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Response to world wide wally (Reply #11)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 07:03 PM

78. And well background checked, well trained, thoroughly executing law ENforcement & Prosecution.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 04:49 PM

12. Kick

My new slogan is:

PAYBACK. PROGRESS.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 04:50 PM

13. K&R Excellent posting.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 04:53 PM

14. Germans are smart people who were willing to learn from their mistakes

I'm not so confident about Trump idiots in the US.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 04:55 PM

15. I've said it here a dozen times or more...

We are where we are at because Richard Nixon didn't die in prison.

And now I will add, this time there are thousands who need to die in prison.

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Response to Mr.Bill (Reply #15)

Fri Jan 8, 2021, 04:15 AM

99. Also because GWB and his enablers walked.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 04:55 PM

16. Great post. We need to hear this. Say it often.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 04:56 PM

17. The United States already made that mistake.

We made it in the aftermath of the Civil War. We backed down on Reconstruction in order to resolve the disputed 1876 election. Had we not done it for that reason, we might very well have done it for a different reason.

We wanted to heal. So we allowed to "lost cause" narrative to take root. And we allowed segregation for rise for the next 90 years.

Failing to recognize the evil of the Confederacy is a big part of why our country has had so many of our problems for the last 150+ years. And it is a big part of why we are a nation today that could justify electing a man like Donald Trump.

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Response to StevieM (Reply #17)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 04:59 PM

20. Bingo.

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Response to StevieM (Reply #17)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 05:05 PM

23. Yep! nt

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Response to StevieM (Reply #17)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 05:07 PM

25. And....

There's the root of a lot of the problems today. Travel to the old south and they still call it the "Aggression of the North", "the trampling of states rights" and they warped history to reflect that the South was wrong. Generations removed and its still the same.

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Response to StevieM (Reply #17)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 05:25 PM

35. I was going to post the same

The biggest mistake we made was allowing Southern culture to persist in the way it did. The fruits of our current problems were seeded in the antebellum South.

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Response to misanthrope (Reply #35)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 05:47 PM

47. That is definitely true, and in recent decades it took a more dangerous turn.

All of the southern anger combined with national conservative anger. When the GOP became dominant in the south you had two different threads of rage and rejectionism coming together. At that point it became virulent.

I can only imagine what it would have looked like if you had southern Republicans, along with the internet and cable news, at the time of the Panama Canal Treaty. The vitriol would have been off the charts. It would have gone a lot further than "we built it, we paid for it, it's ours, were going to keep it." Mind you, the American right was plenty furious back then, and Reagan rode that to power. But it would be at a whole other level today.

Well, this is my 9,999th post. The next one is #10,000. I will have to think about what I want to write and when I want to write it.

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Response to StevieM (Reply #47)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 05:59 PM

54. Nuff said.

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Response to Marcuse (Reply #54)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 07:25 PM

81. From 1861-1865 the closest Confederates got to sacking the Capitol was

Last edited Fri Jan 8, 2021, 02:31 AM - Edit history (1)

an attack by Gen. Jubal Early, who was repulsed I forget exactly where but I believe just a few miles north of the center of government.

Jan. 9, 2021, 21st century rebels finally did it, though. They got to wave the Stars and Bars inside the United States Capitol that they, however briefly, had captured. Something nobody else other than the British Army in 1812 has ever done.

The leader they worship exhorted them yesterday, to never forget the day!

And they won't. The deranged con-man and his true believers gave each other a moment I'm sure some af these spiteful, destructive men will cherish. In their own deluded minds I'm sure many of them will re-cast and elevate their crude mob action to something not unlike a Pickett's Charge.

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Response to StevieM (Reply #17)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 06:16 PM

59. Agree agree AGREE all around! Off topic -

this was your 9,999 post, Stevie!

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Response to StevieM (Reply #17)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 10:33 PM

90. +1, it was Andrew Johnson who did JUST THIS !! He pardoned all the southern assholes for ...

... committing treason against the US.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 04:57 PM

18. K & R

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 04:58 PM

19. We've a long tradition of normalizing this sort of behavior here

We have entire 'news' networks dedicated to this effort.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 05:02 PM

21. Well said...

-

and thank you sharing.
=======

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 05:04 PM

22. As a German in spirit only (I was born in Mnchen and lived in Dachau)

I totally agree!

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 05:05 PM

24. K and R

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 05:07 PM

26. Agreed!

If we don't hold these people accountable, then we merely invite more of the same. Maybe not tomorrow but certainly down the road.

Every single politician and/or bureaucrat who supported the chaos and criminality of Trump needs to be hounded out of office. Every single one, down to the dogcatchers. There are no second chances for sedition, cruelty and blatant criminality. And we need to hold the perpetrators of all the lies and chaos to account. Otherwise, as you wrote, we will simply see a repeat of the same destructive impulses.

We also need to publicly reaffirm basic American values, the things we're proud of, the things we're striving to make better: equality, rule of law, truth over lies, opportunity for all, etc. And never forget what we witnessed yesterday from the storming of the Capitol, to POTUS urging it on, to the young woman sprawled on the floor of the Capitol with her chest blown out, drowning in her own blood. Because that's where this destructive mindset leads: violence, fascism, death.

We must get this right.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 05:08 PM

27. You mean like we have forgotten slavery? N/T

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 05:08 PM

28. Well said!

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 05:10 PM

29. Thank you very much for your post!

I agree that we should not forgive and forget and that we MUST deal with the divide that's growing wider by the day.

But what can we do when 70 million Americans naively believe everything they see and hear on Fox News, NewsMax, and OAN, right-wing talk radio, and on social media, especially when those sources are warning them not to trust the "fake" news outlets? How can we educate people to think critically and analyze information before they believe it? Trumpism is nothing less than a cult. How can we de-program them???



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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 05:12 PM

30. Hopefully, there can be plenty of public hearings in the new Democratic controlled Senate

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 05:22 PM

32. What do you do with a nation half full of idiots?

These people are so fuckin stupid and ignorant / naive that they can be led by any charlatan. And this country is full of con artists.

Neoliberal economics, spearheaded by the Republicans and followed by centrist Democrats led to so many people being economically abandoned, and corporations and billionaires gaining immense power in America. The right wing media then guides these anxieties into basically getting people to punch down and scapegoat minorities. Opportunistic Republicans took advantage of this till a con artist came as the "Jesus" of the far right and became president, and here we are.

Undoing all of this is extremely hard if not impossible and would take immense cooperation in our society. And the right wing media will continue to stoke sedition as long as they are making an immense amount of money.

I would recommend the following...

- Promote people everywhere the tools to dismantle propaganda attacks and essentially "inoculate the mind" over time
- Truly patriotic Republicans organize a new opposition party to essentially replace the Republican Party, a party that Democrats can work with.
- Actively overthrow the "ambition over all else, including country" aspect of our culture that has led to so many Republicans putting party over country and committing sedition. Ambition and winning should never be put above country and society's welfare.
- Actively promote the idea to the rich that the wellbeing of society is to their benefit, and a sick and/or destroyed nation should not be the cost of their prosperity. A society doing well is to their benefit and they wouldn't have to worry about uprisings. The continual pursuit of endless wealth even when one already has a lot is a sickness, not a virtue. Basically get them out of the way of economic progressivism in our country.
- Bring back Keynesian economics
- Vehemently enforce sedition laws even if it seems unfair to many. What is unfair is if our democracy is overthrown by seditionists who essentially will claim this country for themselves and themselves only.
- Take out "kid gloves" treatment of white people that essentially corrupt many white people over time, much like a parent that spoils children is effectively harming their child.

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Response to DSandra (Reply #32)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 05:29 PM

39. Great post!

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Response to DSandra (Reply #32)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 05:30 PM

40. I will likely still be laughing about the woman who came to DC from Nevada

to “stop the steal” and now realizes that she was lied to the whole time. The problem in she is unwilling to trust the news sources that were telling her the truth the whole time. It is tough to get facts into such a bonehead.

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Response to DSandra (Reply #32)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 06:34 PM

65. Your second paragraph is a masterpiece.

One of the best summations explaining our current conundrum I've read yet.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 05:24 PM

34. Here in America, the hate will be reborn in four years.

We need to do something about a lot of things, first up should be reeling in priests and ministers that preach hate from the altar or pulpit.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 05:26 PM

36. K & R

Spot on. Thank you.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 05:28 PM

37. NO, it was NOT WRONG for you to write this.

It desperately needs to be said, and said again and then shouted - and, as you say, every day.

We have ample evidence that "making nice" DOES NOT WORK. We need to be shken out of that.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 05:28 PM

38. Good post and right thing to say.

Last edited Thu Jan 7, 2021, 07:13 PM - Edit history (1)

However we are always forgetting. We’re already constantly letting these crimes go.
Anyone remember the Woodward interview with trump? Or the Woodward book? Many were comparing trumps actions and inactions to genocide. How bout just couple days ago the phone call to Raffensperger, strongarming him to find votes. Idk, one thing I learned from 4 years of this is no one’s going to be talking about this in 3 days. He’ll be quiet for a couple days and then more shit. He’s planning right now tomorrow’s crimes. Chaos. Distract. Repeat.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 05:35 PM

41. History may not repeat, but it does rhyme...

The US has similar, if less powerful groups extant here. Until now, none have come so close to taking over out government.

Yes, we need a thorough house cleaning ourselves. We haven't quite got to point of lighting up gas chambers for our undesirables yet, the there were certainly hints that we have leaning that direction for quite some time. This just didn't start with Trump, far from it. It centers on what the Republican Party has become. They have moved that way in the interest of political power and the desire to set up a minority power one-party system.

There are legal limits on how much we can limit speech or what people wear, but we really need to apply more social pressures to shame and ostracize these folks who pursue violent overthrow of our government and society.

One of our problems is our false pride and our denial of the realities of our country. It leads to an inability to follow one of the most important maxims we need to learn: You have to learn from other people's mistakes, we don't have time to make them all ourselves.

Yeah, we can learn a lot from our European friends and neighbors.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 05:38 PM

42. K&R

 

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 05:43 PM

43. Beautiful piece

Thank you for the reminder.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 05:44 PM

44. I've been saying basically the same thing for a long time.

A lot of people like to say Ford "healed the country" by pardoning Nixon. In fact, Ford enabled those who perpetrated Iran-Contra, the misuse of intelligence to promote the war in Iraq, and the abomination that is the Trump administration.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 05:46 PM

45. That mistake was made in the aftermath of Bush/Cheney and the Neo-Con fascists.

We still have no accounting for how the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan actually got started nor the domestics abuses of power occurring in that time.

We "had" to move on...

We are paying today for that mistake and the sheer folly of allowing Neo-Con politics to morph into the Tea Party and Trumpism without confronting them with the truth.

As a progressive I complained to my well meaning moderate democratic congressman who ducked the issues. He repeatedly excused having our foreign policy dictated to serve the Oil Sheikhs, the Israeli Right Wing, the Generals who needed promotion and Combat prior to retirement, and of course the MIC Arms merchants.

I have no patience left to offer those who think we cannot spend the time to root out all the enablers, players, the wannabes, and the stay behind agents in waiting. What we saw yesterday was a DIRECT consequence of ignoring them when the previous Democratic administration took power.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 05:47 PM

46. K & R

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 05:48 PM

48. reborn in a few

months.

Fixed it for you.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 05:50 PM

49. Thank you for writing this very important post.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 05:55 PM

51. Thanks

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 05:59 PM

53. East or West.

So many Nazis faded into the woodwork on both sides of the Cold War.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 06:02 PM

55. Immense Thanks.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 06:08 PM

56. It was absolutely the right thing for you to write this.

Thank you for doing so.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 06:09 PM

57. Excellent essay!

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 06:18 PM

60. you are 100% correct to write this

we let gerald ford pardon nixon and pretended things were healed and nixon wasnt nearly the criminal trump and his cult are. we can never forget this, we must purge this evil from our nation or we will live with it until we do. this is by no means over.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 06:24 PM

61. Agreed

And very well said. Thank you for writing this btw

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 06:24 PM

62. Thank you. Very thoughtful post.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 06:25 PM

63. About ten years ago, I toured Dachau concentration camp which is near Munich

and I was pleasantly surprised at the number of school groups who were there. Their citizens know what happened and by accepting responsibility as a country and educating their children about the horrors of the past, it helps to ensure it won't happen again.

I think this is a good example of doing the hard "shadow work." The US has not accepted responsibility for slavery or the present day horrors that result from systemic racism. We need to do the same thing Germany did and own up to our own misdeeds.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 06:34 PM

64. Thank you for posting this wise advise. We had better follow it

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 06:38 PM

66. Thank you for writing this. You are right. Look at the racial issues in this country. Much of it

is because the atrocious treatment of poc has never even been apologized for. No atonement made for the inexcusable treatment of Native Americans in this country. It is festering beneath the surface. Now, with Trump you can add Mexicans, Muslims, and Jewish to the list of those often attacked by mainly white supremacist groups. I am white and am not proud of the damage and devastation the white man has caused in this country and around the world for centuries. Who the hell ever told them they were better than anyone else cause they happen to be born with light skin? It shows their ignorance and it's shameful.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 06:38 PM

67. It was right of you to post this.

Very good, in fact. Thank you for your wise advice. We would do best to heed it.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 06:41 PM

68. KnR, DetlefK

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 06:42 PM

69. Thank you for this...

I didn't know this history. I grew up in the 60s and of course, everything you say makes sense, fills in a lot of gaps. I agree with you, we must deal with these insurrectionists and deal with the hate that is exploding in this country.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 06:43 PM

70. Agreed.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 06:43 PM

71. We in fact did the same exact thing.

We forgot the Nazi aligned monsters in the USA. We ignored, the ministers, politicians and industry leaders who we called Nazi sympathizers when in fact they were Nazis.
We suffered with them in politics and we still suffer with them in our own wealthy oligarchy. There was money behind this attack on democracy.

Please hear the truth in this, if Ted Cruz and one other single Republican agree on something, it is a position that was paid for. There will be a common source of money that was behind this outrage and the Republicans trying to overthrow the rule of law. Keep in mind how harsh their cries for punishment are. Then, go after the money behind them.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 06:44 PM

72. When I saw what was happening at the Capitol yesterday

I immediately thought how Nazi thugs surrounded the Reichstag session (held in another building after the Reichstag itself had been burned by Nazis) and pressured legislators to pass the Enabling Act that gave Hitler absolute power.

Yesterday's thugs were after much the same. And like the Nazis then, there were authoritarian sympathizers inside the Congress more than willing to give them what they wanted.

We must not forget how for four long years so much of America was willing not only to tolerate this monster, but actively encourage him.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 06:49 PM

74. Before we can make the mistake of moving on we must first win this struggle.

... and that's far from a given at this point.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 06:53 PM

75. Thank you!

I wasn't aware of most of this, even though I was alive for most of it.

I wish you could get this published somewhere. The rest of the country needs to see it.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 06:58 PM

76. Other than saying "don't forget" you have given no specifics.

What specifically do you recommend?

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 06:58 PM

77. Important lessons, indeed...

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 07:07 PM

79. Nothing at all wrong with this OP, or the thoughts behind it.

I'd forgotten about Bader-Meinhoff and their compatriots before I read your post. That alone was worth the price of admission, as the saying goes.

You're not wrong.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 07:12 PM

80. K&R n/t

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 07:32 PM

82. Wow, I didn't know the 60's were like that

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 08:10 PM

83. Very intriguing. Left me really thinking. Thank you! I want

you to finish your point. Yes, don't forget. Buy what can you actually do?

In Germany, how could you have changed the people who wanted to forget? It reminds me of people here who say " no worries, why we have elections in US, he'll be gone" and all the people you call the " little ones"... What should have been done with them? It's the "all things will pass over time and you can't arrest everyone" approach that you are denouncing.

My mind immediately comes to Beto, who to me, is one of the most unique people in politics. Heard him multiple time in Texas. He visited every single place in Texas and seriously just listened to the people everywhere and found common ground.

Is that the answer?

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 08:35 PM

84. Thanks for these truths, and for the invaluable advice.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 08:36 PM

85. Sounds right on to me..

well done!

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 09:21 PM

86. Thank you

For your insight, this is a dark perod for us right now. We want to join the 21st century again.


But we will NEVER forget, we want this cretin mentally unwell to pay for CRIMES, Depraved Heart Murders, Extortion, Treasonous,, willing accomplice to steal the election in 2016 with help of a known adversary, and using harmful propaganda to poison.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 09:24 PM

87. I favor branding their foreheads...

With the word traitor. Lest we forget.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 09:25 PM

88. This is correct

thank you!!

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 10:29 PM

89. TY for your valuable insight and drawing the deep //s

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 10:48 PM

93. Our 3rd Reich is called the Confederacy.. and they've been going strong since 1861.... sigh n/t.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 10:50 PM

94. The Biden administration must pursue charges against t

And against the treason caucus, too.

And against the terrorists.

Consequences!!! They have got to face consequences.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 10:51 PM

95. I think there are still more than a few nazis in Germany as well unfortunately

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 10:53 PM

96. I haven't seen any talking about "forgiving and forgetting" Trump and his followers yet.

We're talking about personality cultists here. Short of being deprogrammed, they aren't going to magically stop believing that Trump is their savior. (I met an old bartender in Germany 35 years ago that was alive during the war. He still believed that Hitler had essentially been a good man, and that everyone around him were the ones that had pushed the war and genocide.)

So, if they're not changing, what do you do? You drive them back under the rocks and piles of shit they came from, and you cut off their source of oxygen...Trump himself.

If he doesn't serve time in federal prison for his role in the attack of the insurrectionists, then this cult will continue.
He needs to be jailed and his pronouncements need to be relegated to the backwater shitholes of the internet. No Twitter, No Facebook, No other major platforms to spew his hate, in perpetuity.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Jan 7, 2021, 11:19 PM

97. Thank you, DetlefK!

I agree with you completely.

I am partly German by ancestry (the one heritage not celebrated when I was a school girl).

Lawrence O'Donnell showed images tonight, from yesterday's attack on the Capitol -- men wearing t-shirts with slogans translating "Arbeit Macht Frei" (it sounded rather innocuous in English) and some code for '6 million wasn't enough' (regarding the holocaust) -- horrifying. How do you perceive the American adoption of such phrases? Where does it trace to?

Our own problem, of course, is uniquely our own, stemming from the original sin of enslaving African people. In my view, we're still mired in the Civil War, which southerners would call 'the war of northern aggression.' Wherever they live now, people of that mindset still want to 'take their country back.' They're still certain Black people are the problem, because they are not working hard enough for the generous 'free government services' they believe they are providing.

Thus, those of the Civil War south (racist) mind-set are angry. More whipping needed! How dare you take away our way of life! You're the cause of all my problems! Get off my land! Don't tread on me!

It's weird though, because they don't know what they want. They fly the confederate flag next to the American flag. They desecrate the United States Capitol and threaten the halls of government while chanting "USA! USA! USA!" As white men, they're the most enfranchised, privileged demographic in our country, and yet they're woefully aggrieved.

I grew up being told we're a wonderful "melting pot," and I imagined we'd be like crayons and end up warm beiges and browns, but it seems we don't melt. Can Germany or Europe in general teach us anything, or is it just us?

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Fri Jan 8, 2021, 12:47 AM

98. From a fellow German: No, it was not wrong to write this!/nt.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Fri Jan 8, 2021, 05:18 AM

100. Thank you for writing this!

The US must NOT EVER forget what Trump and his supporters have done.

The US must NOT EVER move on.

The US must NOT EVER in any way think that this was normal.

You don't heal a country by forgetting. You heal a country by facing the problem and talking about it every single day.

If you pretend that this crisis, this hatred, ended with Trump leaving office, if you decide to forget, then this hatred will fester and be reborn in a few decades.

Maybe it will return as right-wing violence. Maybe it will return as left-wing violence.

Please mark my words: If US-society decides to forgive and forget, if it decides to move on and to go back to business as usual, if it doesn't deal thoroughly with this hatred, with this divide and its perpetrators, then there will be dark consequences down the road.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Fri Jan 8, 2021, 07:50 AM

101. Thank you DetlefK, it is the right thing to say.

Send this to as many US newspapers and media outlets as possible

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Fri Jan 8, 2021, 09:09 AM

102. On the other hand, when they turned the Baath party people out into the streets in Iraq...

They ensured that there wouldn't be peace in the country for a generation or more.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Fri Jan 8, 2021, 09:14 AM

103. you're not wrong.... Jamelle Bouie wrote about post Civil War Reconstruction mistakes

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Fri Jan 8, 2021, 09:33 AM

104. K&R

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Fri Jan 8, 2021, 09:48 AM

105. Can I call them Nazi now or is that too broad of a brush? I sure wouldn't want to

hurt repug feelings.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Fri Jan 8, 2021, 10:04 AM

106. I lived in Germany during the Bader-Meinhoff groups attacks.

I remember having a poster with all the members pictures on it & the dead or captured had big black "X" over them.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Fri Jan 8, 2021, 10:43 AM

107. Agreed. Like the short-term benefit of pardoning Nixon has led to continuing inability to recover

from the scandals of the time.

The pain has to be faced, dealt with, and moved through. Not avoided.

Everyone who stormed the capitol needs to spend maximum time in prison, and have their right to vote or hold office stripped from them, and some of them should be spending life in prison.

I don't want to get all Game of Thrones ugly, but insurrection is something that cannot be tolerated.

And then the proud boys, QAnon, and other terrorist groups need to be hunted down and their organizations destroyed and their leaders either go to jail or be made pariahs that can never get a job, get a loan, or find a place to live.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Fri Jan 8, 2021, 11:06 AM

108. Maybe the best thing I have read on D.U.

Perfect. the most powerful and intelligent thing I have read all year. You should do this for a living if you don't already.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Fri Jan 8, 2021, 11:31 AM

109. I don't think we should forget

but perhaps we should have something more like the South African Truth and Reconciliation Commission? I thought that was a decent solution. But I do think some of the prominent insurrectionists should be punished, including those in Congress. The Seditious Six in the Senate, and the Sedition Caucus in the House. Hawley should either be expelled or busted down to no rank at all, and Derrick Evans (R-WV) who entered the Capitol with the mob must not be sworn in.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Fri Jan 8, 2021, 12:28 PM

110. As an American...

I feel the same way you do. We can't go back but we must never, ever forget just how close we came to being a Nazi Germany!! So, now you weren't wrong at all for your warning!!

Thank you!!

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Fri Jan 8, 2021, 01:18 PM

111. "hatred will fester and be reborn" - That's precisely how the Confederate flag...

... ultimately came to be marching through the halls of Congress this week.

===========

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Fri Jan 8, 2021, 04:04 PM

112. K & R

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Fri Jan 8, 2021, 04:39 PM

113. I don 't think that is entirely accurate. It was never forgotten that "12 years of Hitler's rule

had ever happened." I've always admired the way Germany made sure the crimes of WWII were taught to every German child in school. Japan, on the other hand, never taught their children who they had done during WWII, portraying themselves instead as victims of the United States.

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